27.5 vs 29'er hype?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    27.5 vs 29'er hype?

    Just wondering if the whole 27.5 vs 29'er is all hype to get us to spend more money. I've been riding a carbon 29'er for 3 years now. Very happy with it. Don't know anyone who has a 27.5, but I don't want to be "late to the party" if you know what I mean.

    What I want to know is if switching from a 29'er to a 27.5 will be as noticeable as my switch from 26 to 29.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    I noticed my 29 bike is 3" more than my 26 bikes with 650B in between.

    I could be the wrong person to ask much more because wheel size and and other stuff like what pedals you use as tribe or religion passed me by.

    Who should wear spandex, and riders who don't do trail work or donate money to the sport might get me going a little more.

  3. #3
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    Blah blah...the evil bike companies...blah blah....evil marketing...blah blah.

    Just ride what you like.

  4. #4
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    Uh, thanks? I guess.

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    Look. Some ppl are gonna say one is better than the other. Others will say 27.5 is a scam by the evil corporations to fleece the consumer.

    I have a 26, 27.5, and a 29er in the garage. They all ride different....each has its own personality, nevermind geometry.

    That's why I said just ride what you like. Go demo bikes and decide for yourself if you like the feel, because the truth is nobody can answer that for you.

  6. #6
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    Or just search and read any of the other 2 million similar threads on this forum instead of posting another one.

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    I'm going to ride what I have which is a 26, and ride it until it can't be ridden anymore.
    That and a road bike is enough to keep me happy.

  8. #8
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    This is such a great website for riders. So many intelligent and helpful answers. This has to be the best website on the internet! Especially for beginners.

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    to me to go from a 26 to a 29 = +11.5%
    26 to a 27.5 = +5.8%
    27.5 to 29 = +5.5%

    My 27.5 feels much bigger than the my old 26 - I could not imagine going to 29.

    Personally, I don't know if I get your post as you state you are very happy with your current 29'r but yet you wonder if 27.5 is an attempt by the industry to get more cash. sounds to me that the attempt is working on you.......I am happy with my 27.5 - and I don't bother thinking about a 29 or being late to the party. I assume that by now enough bikes with no traditional wheel sizes have been sold to ensure that parts will remain availible for quite some time......

  10. #10
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    Re: 27.5 vs 29'er hype?

    This thread is new and exciting!

  11. #11
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    The difference in feeling from you going from a 26er to a 29er probably wouldn't be replicated as you going from a 26er, 29er to a 27.5er, does that mean its a bad thing? I don't, 27.5ers are my choice that I like better than the others, but others will feel completely opposite, so whatever works for you, do it. If you do get a chance to ride other bikes of different wheel sizes, try to have one that fits you as close as your main ride, that way you could make an educated decision on what works the best for you.
    I think a lot of posters denounce whatever on this site from being influenced by someone, buyers remorse, grumpy, like to argue, old school, don't like new technology, cheap, don't give time to fully understand, impatient, trying to be diffent, blah, blah, blah.
    Ride whatever you like and F*** the rest.

  12. #12
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    This documentary should provide all the answers about this subject,



    2006 Cannondale Rush 650b
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Or just search and read any of the other 2 million similar threads on this forum instead of posting another one.
    This

  14. #14
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    If you're really short, it's best to stay with a 26er.

    If you're really tall, you'll need a 29er!

    And if you're in between, than a 27.5/650B is the one for you!!

    "By Your Command"

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    If you're really short, it's best to stay with a 26er.

    If you're really tall, you'll need a 29er!

    And if you're in between, than a 27.5/650B is the one for you!!

    Wrong. There are no specifics. Ride whatever you feel like and whatever blows your skirt up.

  16. #16
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    Here where I live (Aus) last year all the half decent bikes (looking at hardtails...particularly Giant) were mainly 29" wheels, not great if you're looking to buy a proper and decent bike for your kids (26" HT's had pretty crappy spec, like v brakes etc).

    This year (and for 2015) the more decent bikes are 27.5" wheels, I didn't think it was ideal for the kids still but sizing them up they actually fit pretty well, and don't seem hugely bigger than a 26".

    I don't think 27.5" is hype, it's purely because the industry is moving in new directions and 29" was never going to suit everyone.

    If you're the type that likes to keep up with trends then yeah go buy 27.5"

    I reckon all three wheels sizes will be available for quite some time to come.

    Personally I'll be hanging onto my 26"er that I brought a year and a half ago. at 5ft7 if I needed a new bike I would consider 27.5, I wouldn't likely buy 29" though, I just don't see the need for such big wheels for me.

  17. #17
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    I believe it depends on what type of riding you do. For a hardtail XC bike I believe a 29er is idea.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky Mtn View Post
    to me to go from a 26 to a 29 = +11.5%
    26 to a 27.5 = +5.8%
    27.5 to 29 = +5.5%
    The three rim sizes are 559, 584, and 622 but unless you ride without tires you need to pick a reasonable tire size and apply it to each.

    With a 58mm tall tire, the three wheel sizes are 675, 700, and 738. Using these numbers:

    26 to a 27.5 = +3.7%
    27.5 to 29 = +5.4%
    26 to 29 = +9.3%

    It's best not to use marketing dishonesty as the basis of calculations.

  19. #19
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    I rode my classic steel hardtail for 15 years, until I couldn't ride it anymore. I refused to ride alloy frames because they simply didn't measure up. I did not buy into 29 because the wheels felt heavy and floppy.

    I tested 3 high-quality 29ers, ht and dual, and 2 27.5s, AM and XC. I actually spent a fair amount of time on them as they belonged to friends and I have cool shop I use.

    I changed to a Carbon Dual suspend 27.5 with XC geo for the better roll and light weight. Very quick to accelerate and turn. Easy to flip around. Nice roll. Chicks really dig it.

    I think it was an excellent move for me.

    Don't take the criticisms here too hard. This topic has been talked to death. Do a search and you will find many interesting contributions.

    Mine, however, is the only right one.
    I don't rattle.

  20. #20
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    Remember Groundhog Day? Where Bill Murray runs into the same annoying guy every time he walks outside? I'm starting to feel that these type wheel size threads are that guy.

  21. #21
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    Re: 27.5 vs 29'er hype?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluidworks View Post
    Remember Groundhog Day? Where Bill Murray runs into the same annoying guy every time he walks outside? I'm starting to feel that these type wheel size threads are that guy.
    Phil? Phil Connors?!

    Ned?! POW!
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  22. #22
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    If you're very happy with your current bike, I would just just continue to enjoy that. When your wallet and other circumstances point towards getting a new ride, test a whole bunch of them and get the one you like the best, ignoring wheel size and anyone else's opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ratdog56 View Post
    Just wondering if the whole 27.5 vs 29'er is all hype to get us to spend more money. I've been riding a carbon 29'er for 3 years now. Very happy with it. Don't know anyone who has a 27.5, but I don't want to be "late to the party" if you know what I mean.

    What I want to know is if switching from a 29'er to a 27.5 will be as noticeable as my switch from 26 to 29.

    Thanks!

  23. #23
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    i only drink Pliney the Elder and ride enduro

  24. #24
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    Ah, the party. Yes, no one wants to be late. I'm not convinced that there's a lot of hype going on here, any more so than anywhere else in the bike industry. So here's the short answer, and it's a lot like BerkleyMike's. Ride whatever you enjoy riding, as long it's for the right reasons. What do I ride the most? A rigid, steel frame SS 29er. Because whether you think I'm a masochist or not, it's fun. Days when I don't want the physical punishment that bike dishes out, I'll ride my FS 29er. Am I looking 27.5 bikes for an all mountain sort of thing? Yes. Have I found what I'm looking for yet? Nope. But part of that is because I'm not going to take out a second mortgage on the ranch to buy another bike.

  25. #25
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    27.5 vs 29'er hype?

    Quote Originally Posted by bitflogger View Post
    I noticed my 29 bike is 3" more than my 26 bikes with 650B in between.

    I could be the wrong person to ask much more because wheel size and and other stuff like what pedals you use as tribe or religion passed me by.

    Who should wear spandex, and riders who don't do trail work or donate money to the sport might get me going a little more.
    Less than 2 1/2 actually. http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/06/06/...reakdown-more/
    Draft College Republicans

  26. #26
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    27.5 vs 29'er hype?

    29ers never made good long travel bikes, now there is a good option with 27.5. I still like the 29er for HT and SS.
    Draft College Republicans

  27. #27
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    Concerning being late to the party. I think you have a legit question. What you buy now and what will be around in 5 years may be an issue. Spending big bucks now on something that could be obsolete then should be on buyers minds. Hopefully, with the growth currently taking place, all three will be strong options for years to come. Worst case scenario would be that any particular wheel size becomes difficult to replace. I really hope that doesn't happen to anyone.

  28. #28
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    Is there a difference yes.
    Is it as profound as the hype no.

    Reality is it will come down to what you feel best on. Until steps maybe the larger or smaller size will be faster for a top rider of a rider at thier peak where those small percentages count but reality is for most of us we will have much more gains in our performance from training.

    Chances are a pro can corner better on a 29er than most can on a 26 even though the 26 is more nimble.

    If you we're buying new I'd say for sure to test a few but I do not see it a reason to go out and buy new unless you are searching for those very small gains.

  29. #29
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    Smaller wheels have lower center of gravity which helps in handling while cornering and climbing.
    Smaller wheels have stronger spokes and can take hits on landings without bending.

  30. #30
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    Go with a 69er and split the difference.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail_Blazer View Post
    Smaller wheels have lower center of gravity which helps in handling while cornering and climbing.
    This is not true. The rider is 80-90+% of the total mass and wheel size doesn't change his position. Wheel weight is a small fraction of total bike weight. It doesn't matter.

    29ers can "take hits on landings without bending". These days 29er wheels can be made plenty strong.

  32. #32
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    It is true man. Get over your ego. Come ride my Camber 29er next to my friends StumpJumper 26.
    World s of differance on trails with lots of tight switchback turns.
    Longer wheelbase alone counts against tighter turning, add large fat wheels and yes it is noticable without a doubt.

  33. #33
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    Let me know whwn the DH world cups are won on 29wheels. Stonger in 2014 yes but strongest not by a longshot unless adding stupid amounts of weight.
    Longer the spoke weaker it is. Thats just truth. Making stronger thicker spokes adds weight for no gain and makes spin up even harder.

  34. #34
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    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=919922


    Check this thread for some good info thats backed up pretty well too.

  35. #35
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    Ever since I decided do go with a cyclocross over either a 27.5 or 29, my mind has been completely relaxed. Sticking to my 26 and going with the cyclocross for the combo adventure.

  36. #36
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    27=26, they feel practically the same.
    29, yo notice a difference from 26. If you like your current bike then don't buy the marketing BS and enjoy your life.

  37. #37
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    And yet another thread descends into madness. Congratulations.

  38. #38
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    To quote the all powerful Yoda....

    Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.
    The Truth will set you free.

    ....but it might offend you first!

  39. #39
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    You gotta harness in the good energy, block out the bad. Harness. Energy. Block. Bad.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail_Blazer View Post
    Let me know whwn the DH world cups are won on 29wheels. Stonger in 2014 yes but strongest not by a longshot unless adding stupid amounts of weight.
    Longer the spoke weaker it is. Thats just truth. Making stronger thicker spokes adds weight for no gain and makes spin up even harder.
    This is a classic example of making up facts to support preconceived notions.

    If weak spokes were the issue you'd just make 29ers with spokes the same length as 26er wheels. That could be done, it's just not necessary.

    Making "spin up even harder" is a joke. Rotational inertia of bicycle wheels is modest; the difference in energy required to accelerate between 26ers and 29ers is a fraction of a percent when bike and rider are considered.

    What is perceived as slow "spin up" is actually a tire's rolling characteristics. Weight has little to do with it and larger wheels spin slower for a given speed. A while back I showed that, due to the larger wheel's better rolling resistance, a 29er wheel actually accelerated better than a 26er starting at very modest speeds. None that is really noticeable since differences are so small. Bigger wheels roll better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trail_Blazer
    World s of differance on trails with lots of tight switchback turns. Longer wheelbase alone counts against tighter turning, add large fat wheels and yes it is noticable without a doubt.
    Longer wheelbase also makes a better climbing and more comfortable bike. Smaller wheels definitely allow for a shorter minimum wheelbase but if that were important why not ride a BMX bike? They have stronger wheels as well. Those 26ers and their flimsy spokes!

    These arguments do not support the superiority of 26 or 27.5 wheels. They are simply minor differences and they, in fact, support the superiority of 12" wheels. People who use these arguments are either ignorant or hypocritical.

  41. #41
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    I agree with Yoda

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonC71 View Post
    Blah blah...the evil bike companies...blah blah....evil marketing...blah blah.

    Just ride what you like.
    Nailed the answer with post #3....told ya.

  43. #43
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    Rode my 27.5 today on some semi techy single track for the 1st time. It's awesome. Observations comparing it to a 26; I am 5.5" for context and it was not too big at all however, I could roll over going down and wheelie up/over rocks logs like I have never felt on a mt bike! Super psyched!

  44. #44
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    Good job!

    I don't do technical stuff but I love my 26 and just gave it a nice paint job which came out great. Good for another couple of years I hope.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    The three rim sizes are 559, 584, and 622 but unless you ride without tires you need to pick a reasonable tire size and apply it to each.

    With a 58mm tall tire, the three wheel sizes are 675, 700, and 738. Using these numbers:

    26 to a 27.5 = +3.7%
    27.5 to 29 = +5.4%
    26 to 29 = +9.3%

    It's best not to use marketing dishonesty as the basis of calculations.

    Quite possibly the best post ever on this forum.

  46. #46
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    2003 called, they want their stupid wheel size thread back.

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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post

    What is perceived as slow "spin up" is actually a tire's rolling characteristics. Weight has little to do with it and larger wheels spin slower for a given speed.

    I simply do not agree. Rotational mass and an increased radius are real physical factors effecting rotational force vectors. Basic High School Physics, independent of tires.
    I don't rattle.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 802spokestoke View Post
    Concerning being late to the party. I think you have a legit question. What you buy now and what will be around in 5 years may be an issue. Spending big bucks now on something that could be obsolete then should be on buyers minds. Hopefully, with the growth currently taking place, all three will be strong options for years to come. Worst case scenario would be that any particular wheel size becomes difficult to replace. I really hope that doesn't happen to anyone.
    how this is going to play out and on what bikes is the questions. i think most of us agree that 29ers make sense for HT and XC FS bikes. but, they aren't suited to DH or long travel. something like a trek fuel is as long of travel as i'd want on a 29

    650b is better for long travel, better for smaller riders

    26 has been around forever , probably the best for DH and extremely long travel

    i honestly see all 3 staying around, but, high end gear other than DH i could see phasing out of 26

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by rearviewmirror View Post
    29ers never made good long travel bikes, now there is a good option with 27.5. I still like the 29er for HT and SS.
    Yes. Agree. To add...


    29ers roll nicer and carry speed better on pedally sections, to me. That's important in xc and regular trail riding.

    Longer travel and burlier wheels and tires match better with the 275.


    Just like the amount of travel you may want on a bike, or a particular geo, a particular number is not right or wrong, better or worse, overall. Comes down to picking the right tool for the job.

  50. #50
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    I love how people like to quote that physics determined blah blah blah but if you actually owned at 29 and 26 bike you would know exactly what I'm talking about because when I ride my 29 and 26 up challenging hills there's a world of difference.
    Also at my local bike park people take 29ers there all the time and end up with taco wheels while the same trail with peeps on their 26's have no tacos ever.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail_Blazer View Post
    I love how people like to quote that physics determined blah blah blah but if you actually owned at 29 and 26 bike you would know exactly what I'm talking about because when I ride my 29 and 26 up challenging hills there's a world of difference.
    Also at my local bike park people take 29ers there all the time and end up with taco wheels while the same trail with peeps on their 26's have no tacos ever.
    of course. the 29er is both much easier to climb with and easier to bend wheels, they are larger and by nature, weaker. they also have more momentum and a larger contact patch. that was the whole point of the chat, there really is no "best size"

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail_Blazer View Post
    I love how people like to quote that physics determined blah blah blah but if you actually owned at 29 and 26 bike you would know exactly what I'm talking about because when I ride my 29 and 26 up challenging hills there's a world of difference.
    Also at my local bike park people take 29ers there all the time and end up with taco wheels while the same trail with peeps on their 26's have no tacos ever.
    Now, that's just a shame. No one should have to go without tacos.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I simply do not agree. Rotational mass and an increased radius are real physical factors effecting rotational force vectors. Basic High School Physics, independent of tires.
    Use your Basic High School Physics, then, and show that their contribution matters. Calculate the energy of motion of a real bike and rider and show that wheel size has a meaningful contribution. It doesn't.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail_Blazer View Post
    I love how people like to quote that physics determined blah blah blah
    Says the guy quoting us facts of 29er wheels having inferior CG and weaker spokes.

    How your tune has changed.

  55. #55
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    Craig I wont get cought in your **** throwing. I stated my experiance. Thats more relivent info that your blah blah blah has offered yet.

  56. #56
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    27.5 vs 29'er hype?-one-does-not-simply-stop-trolling-you.jpg

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by racebum View Post
    how this is going to play out and on what bikes is the questions. i think most of us agree that 29ers make sense for HT and XC FS bikes. but, they aren't suited to DH or long travel. something like a trek fuel is as long of travel as i'd want on a 29

    650b is better for long travel, better for smaller riders

    26 has been around forever , probably the best for DH and extremely long travel

    i honestly see all 3 staying around, but, high end gear other than DH i could see phasing out of 26

    This is all opinion obviously, but we have been lead to believe 29ers are not suited to long travel. The Specialized Enduro, Niner WFO9 and BMC Trailfox 29ers prove great long travel 29ers can be made.

    26 will never be phased out. Half of the worlds population is probably below 5'5" and there have been millions of 26" wheel bikes which will need product support.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    This is all opinion obviously, but we have been lead to believe 29ers are not suited to long travel. The Specialized Enduro, Niner WFO9 and BMC Trailfox 29ers prove great long travel 29ers can be made.
    This is true and those claims had no basis in the first place. There was a lack of longer travel because the market was immature and pieces weren't in place yet.

    The claimed limitations of big wheels, long travel, and short chain stays are also arbitrary and driven by customer perception. It can be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    This is true and those claims had no basis in the first place. There was a lack of longer travel because the market was immature and pieces weren't in place yet.

    The claimed limitations of big wheels, long travel, and short chain stays are also arbitrary and driven by customer perception. It can be done.
    Why would you need a long travel 29'er. Seems a little redundant. Sort of like an FS Fat Bike.

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    If you ever had a chance to ride an E29 on a rocky technical trail, you'd answer your own question. Probably the finest all-around mountain bike I've ever owned.

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    Where and how is a 29er a better, faster climber than the rest?, I hear that comment so often and wonder how some come to that conclusion, higher rotational weight means slower climbing, that's just basic physics, maybe I can partially answer part of my own question, they are slightly better on a rough climb, but every other climbing situation they are not, don't care what anyone says, I've spent lots of time on each size and never concluded that.
    As some state that 29ers carry more momentum, that might be true but on most climbs, you make the momentum, you don't nessesarily carry momentum. If your climbing at 25mph, then yeah, but most real climbing is done at 10mph of less, I still think 26ers are the fastest climbers overall, but just about everywhere else they are not, that's why I believe the 27.5 er to be the best overall.

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    So, to paraphrase: YOU figured out what works best for YOU. Congratulations. Enjoy your riding and stop trying to extrapolate your needs to the rest of the riding population. Thanks.

  63. #63
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    In conclusion, listen to your own arsh, not all the other arshes who keep telling you what to ride. Makes sense to me.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tres Bottelas View Post
    Why would you need a long travel 29'er. Seems a little redundant. Sort of like an FS Fat Bike.
    If long travel and 29er are redundant, why do you think that a larger wheel provides the benefit of travel? Who are you listening to?

    You want long travel and 29er for the same reasons you want long travel with other wheel sizes.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    ...higher rotational weight means slower climbing, that's just basic physics, ...
    Another bogus rotational weight physics claim. Heavier bikes are fractionally worse in climbs UNLESS that weight is invested in achieving better performance. By your logic, only small-wheeled, rigid, single speed bikes should be used for climbing since everything else adds weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    As some state that 29ers carry more momentum, that might be true but on most climbs...
    29ers "carry momentum" better because they have superior rollover. That benefits you nearly all the time regardless of speed or incline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    ...you don't nessesarily carry momentum.
    You are either "carrying" momentum or losing it. Losing it is bad. There is no speed in which it becomes OK to be stopped by an obstacle. 29ers are better at this than smaller wheels.

    29ers typically have longer rear center dimensions as well. This helps with climbing but has nothing to do with the wheel size itself. Longer wheelbases generally make better climbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    If long travel and 29er are redundant, why do you think that a larger wheel provides the benefit of travel? Who are you listening to?

    You want long travel and 29er for the same reasons you want long travel with other wheel sizes.
    I still ride a 26'er with 5.1" of travel, but I have invested a lot of time, and not much money, getting it just right. I understand most are way to busy for that.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratdog56 View Post
    Just wondering if the whole 27.5 vs 29'er is all hype to get us to spend more money. I've been riding a carbon 29'er for 3 years now. Very happy with it. Don't know anyone who has a 27.5, but I don't want to be "late to the party" if you know what I mean.

    What I want to know is if switching from a 29'er to a 27.5 will be as noticeable as my switch from 26 to 29.

    Thanks!
    being "late to the party" for 27.5" is probably a good thing for you as aconsumer. if you can wait then you will probably get better build spec. at a better price compared to those who rush in with fists of cash to over-pay for the latest new thing. As it becomes the norm it should get cheaper and have better component selection for builds.

    I was looking at current year Heckler an thought $2500-2800 fr a bike with a total POS fork--no way, and crap brakes, too. the new models now have a build kit with a Pike an Shimano brakes, looking forward to test riding that bike.

    I was alsso looking at GT sensor, what an awful build for an expensive bike. they are really trying to cash in on the craze, but you'll be upgrading everything on that crap build kit, cost you an arm and a leg. surprised because GT is usually a really good value brand.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Use your Basic High School Physics, then, and show that their contribution matters. Calculate the energy of motion of a real bike and rider and show that wheel size has a meaningful contribution. It doesn't.
    I have a piece of ground, known locally as Owl, that I have been riding for 20 years. It is a really great section we love to hammer that descends/ascends about 350 in 3/4 mile. I and my teams have also used this piece of ground as a standard since 2004 to test bikes, shocks, tires/pressures and do time trials. We know it pretty well.

    Aside from that it is a way huge fun piece of ground that dives into ravines and traverses out of them and around ridges a dozen times. Lots of natural berms, busted-up rock, hard braking, and accelerations. It's funny how many riders stop at the end of it and just grin, talk about corners and little techniques.

    Anyhow, I tested 5 different bikes (29er Dually Stumpy Expert, Tallboy, 29er HT Spot, 27.5 Duallys 5010, Anthem Advance), on this piece of ground on numerous occasions. Reacclerations on the 29er clearly took more energy even though the Spot had Racing Ralphs. The 27.5 was also quicker to place a wheel in front.

    It took a lot of research to get me to part with $5000 for a bike.
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  69. #69
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    I have a owned a 2009 Gary Fisher 29er, 2010 NINER RIP 29er, and a 2011 NINER EMD 29er. I was in the market for a new ride so, with all the hype of 27.5 i test rode one. I'm 6'1" so you think 29er all the way. Well I test rode Giants Anthem Advanced 1 27.5. I was blown away on how it rode. Everything about it reminded me of my RIP full suspension. But the cornering, flickability, how fast you get up to speed was amazing. My suggestion is to go test ride one. Your own experience on your test ride will be your own opinion. Everyone on here has there own opinion which is fine. But in the end it's your money not theres!
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    It took a lot of research to get me to part with $5000 for a bike.
    But this research is uncontrolled and includes a lot of variables unrelated to "rotational mass" and "increased radius". If you would apply the "high school" physics you referenced you would see that the larger wheels with their modest weight increase cannot explain the differences you have perceived.

    How did you quantify the claim that "Reacclerations on the 29er clearly took more energy"? That is quite difficult to do. How have you ruled out simple confirmation bias, which this very likely is?

    What this shows, and what people consistently fail to consider, is that bikes are far more than a wheel size and people are too quick to attribute what they perceive to things that are unclear to them.

    Among these tested bikes, did you weigh the wheels separately to verify that the bikes quickest to "place a wheel in front" were in fact the ones with the lightest wheels? Did you then obtain lighter wheels or swap wheels to show that the characteristic travels with the wheel? If not, then why bother claiming this testing shows "real physical factors effecting rotational force vectors"?

    Anyone with a modest background in physics understands what moment of inertia is and that it increases rapidly with increasing wheel radius. For this reason, people naturally assume large wheels are harder to accelerate. What is key to understand is that the bicycle wheel is rolling and a larger wheel rolls slower for the same bike speed. Because of this, moment of inertia does NOT enter into the calculation and the only thing that matters is the weight at the perimeter of the wheel.

    Larger wheels weigh more than smaller ones so their increased energy storage is greater by that percentage. Less than 10% for 29 over 26 and 6% more than 650b. These increases are dwarfed by the kinetic energy of the bike alone, much less the rider. Whatever you experienced, it was NOT the wheels being slower to spin up.

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    I lowered the pressure on my 26'er yesterday, and it was indeed easier to pedal through most situations. It was purely by accident, though. I was about 5 miles out and got a puncture. I realized that there wasn't enough Stans in my tire to seal the puncture 100%. It was a particularly technical section of downhill trail that I was looking forward to (since I had to climb it), so I made the best of it and hit it with every bit of energy I could muster. There were a couple of punchy climbs thrown in for good measure, and they too were technical in nature. I have been running higher pressures trying to minimize wear, and at the same time thinking that I was saving energy. After my ride yesterday, I am convinced that for most situations running less pressure and higher volume is the best compromise.

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    The sample is pretty large and controlled, as much as one can, with experience over many years.

    Then there is this test. At the shop that built my wheels we were shaking wheels to spread out sealant in tube less tires. Grab a wheel at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock, like a steering wheel on a car, and twist it up and down, thumbs away and thumbs back. This particular difference shows the effect of weight while steering; the floppiness. Clear difference between 27.5 and 29 across the board. Go to shop where they have lots of wheels; clear difference.

    And....when changing wheels from on set to another on the same bike, maintaining size, regardless of wheel size. The weight difference between a set of old Bontragers and the new CK DTSwiss rims showed up during accelerate and was delightful. The grin on a racers face when discovering this is not to be missed. This is not unique to 27.5 vs. 29.

    It is that same effect which makes the 29er so nice to keep moving even on paved surfaces. That is an experience what cannot be denied. An object in motion wants to stay in motion. An object at rest wants to stay at rest. If one object wants to keep its momentum against higher resistance than it must have more stored energy. If one wheel has more stored energy that another then it had to be put there somehow. So the 29 inch wheel takes more energy to get to a certain speed.

    It is too well-established an experience to ignore unless countless riders over the years are delusional and you are the only one in-the-know.
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    Actually, all objects favor a state of equilibrium.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Then there is this test. At the shop that built my wheels we were shaking wheels to spread out sealant in tube less tires. Grab a wheel at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock, like a steering wheel on a car, and twist it up and down, thumbs away and thumbs back. This particular difference shows the effect of weight while steering; the floppiness. Clear difference between 27.5 and 29 across the board. Go to shop where they have lots of wheels; clear difference.
    Yes, this is a demonstration of moment of inertia which does NOT affect a rolling wheel as I've already said. It does affect the feeling a steering which gives the impression that the wheel is slower and causes the confirmation bias that you clearly have. Floppiness is yet another issue. The higher steering effort also give the 29er an undeserved reputation for poor maneuverability when it is wheelbase that determines that. A 29er with the same wheelbase as a 26er turns just as well. Simple physics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    And....when changing wheels from on set to another on the same bike, maintaining size, regardless of wheel size. The weight difference between a set of old Bontragers and the new CK DTSwiss rims showed up during accelerate and was delightful. The grin on a racers face when discovering this is not to be missed. This is not unique to 27.5 vs. 29.
    It's starting to sound like a fairy tale! You're filled with confirmation bias, Mike.

    Roadies are convinced that wheel weight matters even more that trail riders are...until they realize it's not. There are loads of similar stories there, yet lightweight wheels are not so popular with racers anymore except for strict climbing stages. Aero matters, weight not really.

    I've tried my share of lightweight wheels and was convinced i could tell a difference. Then I realized it was the tires and my own confirmation bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    It is that same effect which makes the 29er so nice to keep moving even on paved surfaces. That is an experience what cannot be denied. An object in motion wants to stay in motion. An object at rest wants to stay at rest. If one object wants to keep its momentum against higher resistance than it must have more stored energy. If one wheel has more stored energy that another then it had to be put there somehow. So the 29 inch wheel takes more energy to get to a certain speed.
    A 29er rolls better because it has lower rolling resistance and better rollover, not because it stores more energy in its wheels. This is a myth that we've finally gotten over regarding 29ers, they don't roll better because of momentum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    It is too well-established an experience to ignore unless countless riders over the years are delusional and you are the only one in-the-know.
    I am not the only one in the know, and you have some serious issues with objectivity. You started this talking about high school physics yet you've demonstrated you haven't spent even a moment thinking about the physics itself. You still fail to realize that the energy in the wheel itself is inconsequential.

  75. #75
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    I'll confirm everything Craig is saying. There are other threads with bazillion of posts going over the same stuff. The equations have been posted.
    There is still a lot of misunderstanding about bigger wheels being slower to accelerate. The only issue is weight, and that is minimal.
    We can get into equations later, but intuitively, you have to realize that a wheel that is inherently slow to accelerate to any significant amount would be a non-starter, let alone be the choice of XC racers.

  76. #76
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    craigsj, I guess you opened up another hype, marketing ploy, thank you!
    Everyone listen..."those lightweight wheels are not good, its hype! the bike industry is just trying to extract more money from us, the rotational weight theory is kaput, all those guys running lightweight wheels from riders in the Tour de France, XC racers and everyone else, start using the heaviest wheels you can, especially those that have lead rims and solid rubber tires, especially on big climbs"
    I just learned this, because a poster on this forum told me so...after all these years I was wrong..."For Sale lightweight carbon wheels in 27.5" size and 700c road bike wheels", best offer takes..warning, just read the posts above, because these wheels will do nothing for you except make you a person who believes in hype and falseness in advertising.

    As far as frame design goes, I'm all in on 36ers, because bigger is always better, but with a 40" chain stays/ 130" wheelbase and longer chain stays/ wheelbase will make climbing better, that combined with the heaviest wheels I could possibly built....watch out World Cup, here I come!

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    craigsj, I guess you opened up another hype, marketing ploy, thank you!
    Everyone listen..."those lightweight wheels are not good, its hype! the bike industry is just trying to extract more money from us, the rotational weight theory is kaput, all those guys running lightweight wheels from riders in the Tour de France, XC racers and everyone else, start using the heaviest wheels you can, especially those that have lead rims and solid rubber tires, especially on big climbs"
    I just learned this, because a poster on this forum told me so...after all these years I was wrong..."For Sale lightweight carbon wheels in 27.5" size and 700c road bike wheels", best offer takes..warning, just read the posts above, because these wheels will do nothing for you except make you a person who believes in hype and falseness in advertising.

    As far as frame design goes, I'm all in on 36ers, because bigger is always better, but with a 40" chain stays/ 130" wheelbase and longer chain stays/ wheelbase will make climbing better, that combined with the heaviest wheels I could possibly built....watch out World Cup, here I come!
    Actually in terms of energy requirements, weight matters more than diameter, which is totally in line with what Craig was saying.
    And it has never been a secret that when you are moving a combined 200 pounds between rider and bike, then the difference of a pound is not large in terms of energy expenditure. It is about double the significance if that weight is in the tire (outside of the wheel), but that's still pretty small.

    I did a calculation once, assuming 29er wheels weighed 10 percent more that 26er wheels, and total energy output was not even 1% greater for the 29er. But then you have to consider energy savings from the lower rolling resistance of the bigger wheels. In the end, if you are concerned about energy expenditure, you'd be better off going on a diet than worrying about wheels, unless you are pro who cares about a tenth of a second over a ten mile race.
    But I think the focus of the conversation is about the real characteristics of larger diameter.

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    Well, hype or not......my affinity for Niner products may mean I'm stuck on a 29er until they start a new company called Sevenpointfiver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie1992 View Post
    Well, hype or not......my affinity for Niner products may mean I'm stuck on a 29er until they start a new company called Sevenpointfiver.
    Maybe this will work in the meanwhile.

    sixfifty.com

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    Any chance they'll come out with a 28? For those that think the 27.5 isn't quite big enough, but think the 29 is too big. The 28 would be a big seller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Yes, this is a demonstration of moment of inertia which does NOT affect a rolling wheel as I've already said. It does affect the feeling a steering which gives the impression that the wheel is slower and causes the confirmation bias that you clearly have. Floppiness is yet another issue.
    The 29 Tallboy with Racing Ralph's and the 27.5 Anthem with the same, which I now own, we're ridden on the same course in the same afternoon. The difference was clear.

    As for wheel flop, veraxis has a really nice description of it on another thread:

    "Technically, a bike with more wheel flop will allow you to ride no handed in a straight line with more ease. Summed up, I think you want a relatively long and slack 29er FS with long travel fork with less offset. Perhaps a Tallboy LTc with a Pike 140 with 46mm offset. Backcountry has a sale on the frame for $1800 in size med.

    Explanation of the technical details on why I believe this:


    - Pic sourced from bikecad

    Here's a pic to help show what wheel flop is. A simple way for me to sum up wheel flop is that it's the tendency for the bike want to "fall" and settle into a low position, when you turn the handlebar. The height of the head tube, measured from the ground, becomes lower as you turn the wheel. Pointed straight ahead, the point where the tire hits the ground trails the steering axis (is behind it). When you turn the wheel, the point that the tire touches the ground is more in line with the steering axis, trailing it less. The distance between the steering axis and the contact point of the tire is directly related to how much wheel flop there is. As a side effect with more wheel flop, as the wheel rolls forward with increasing speed, the wheel will want to center itself with a stronger force to point forwar... or perhaps that's the desired effect, with the tendency to want to turn all the way left or right being the side effect.

    The slacker the head angle, the more trail and wheel flop there is, unless it is offset by fork rake (AKA offset). Move the axle forward more and trail, and severity of the wheel flop effect, decreases. The slacker the head angle, the longer the wheel base. A longer wheelbase adds stability at high speed, and a longer "front center" (distance from the bottom bracket to the front axle) affects your weight balance to be more rearward. The longer the fork's axle to crown, the longer the front center, and wheelbase is, compared to a bike with the same HA and shorter fork axle to crown.

    A 29er fork naturally has a longer fork axle to crown distance, and usually longer chainstays. The larger wheel size also affects the trail, increasing it. A 29er with a fork with the same offset as one made for a smaller wheel size will feel as if it has more wheel flop, due to the increased trail, due to the axle on a 29er wheel connecting to the fork a bit higher and further back (illustration, sourced from pinkbike). Forks made for certain wheel sizes have extra offset to help compensate for this--a 26" bike fork with 120mm travel might have 39mm to 42mm offset, and a 27.5 fork might have around 42 to 46mm offset, and a 29er fork might have 46 to 51mm offset (Cannondale Lefty fork/struts have up to 60mm offset, I believe).

    What you see with modern 29ers is an effort to fit smaller riders through lowering the front end. They may want 100mm of travel due to being used to at least that much on smaller wheels, but are unaccustomed to the height added from the larger front wheel, and the fork's longer axle to crown length. One way to lower front end height is to slacken out the head angle. To compensate for wheel flop, forks are spec'd with extra offset to get it to a familiar point, to help riders feel comfortable on the bike. "

    Sorry I couldn't copy the image from Bike and Frame forum in a thread called Bike Stabilty.


    So I did a search on this topic and have yet to see any discussion conclude with a solution. My experience hooked up with a sense of physics that may have been incomplete, though not necessarily in error. That said, I am still left with my light wheel experience and racing and a test situation I have come to trust over many years and trials. I am not prepared to dismiss my experiential assessment as "confirmation bias."
    I don't rattle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post

    "Technically, a bike with more wheel flop will allow you to ride no handed in a straight line with more ease. Summed up, I think you want a relatively long and slack 29er FS with long travel fork with less offset. Perhaps a Tallboy LTc with a Pike 140 with 46mm offset.
    Hmmm...


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    Quote Originally Posted by ratdog56 View Post
    Just wondering if the whole 27.5 vs 29'er is all hype to get us to spend more money. I've been riding a carbon 29'er for 3 years now. Very happy with it. Don't know anyone who has a 27.5, but I don't want to be "late to the party" if you know what I mean.

    What I want to know is if switching from a 29'er to a 27.5 will be as noticeable as my switch from 26 to 29.

    Thanks!
    Interesting thread read 5 years later!

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    In 2014, going from 27.5 to 29 was hype. As of about late 2018, it's not!

    As to going from 29 to 27.5? I'd take a 2014 27.5 over a 2014 29.

    What year is this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post

    What year is this?
    2339. The machines have taken over. The president is a toaster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    2339. The machines have taken over. The president is a toaster.
    I didn't vote for him.

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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    2339. The machines have taken over. The president is a toaster.
    Throw it in jail!!
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by 802spokestoke View Post
    Concerning being late to the party. I think you have a legit question. What you buy now and what will be around in 5 years may be an issue. Spending big bucks now on something that could be obsolete then should be on buyers minds. Hopefully, with the growth currently taking place, all three will be strong options for years to come. Worst case scenario would be that any particular wheel size becomes difficult to replace. I really hope that doesn't happen to anyone.
    Five years later, this is either prescient, or funny. I ain't laughing
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    Here is the funny I was referring to above:
    27.5 vs 29'er hype?-max_wheelsizetobuy2_236824.jpg
    Both 27.5 and 27.5+ have dropped to about where 26 was 6 years ago. Not a good sign for our 27.5 riding amigos, if the trend follows how 26 went. Brace yourselves for forced obsolescence.

    Chart taken from this article:
    https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Wh...y-Results,2787
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    That's a pretty cool chart.

    I'm not concerned about obsolescence. I can still buy nice 26ers and put modern tires and custom carbon rims on it....it's just the geo is still old geo. I'll be able to buy 27 parts for decades to come. If they stop making bikes, there won't be any "new" tech, but the tech right now is pretty good, and I can always use 2.6 tires with offset shock bushings in a 29er frame. One of my bikes is this way and it works very nicely.

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    Quick clarification for those who didn't click the above link: those are not sales numbers. They are the results of a survey of 10,000 people by VitalMTB regarding what they plan on buying in 2020.
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  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiThundrrr View Post
    Quick clarification for those who didn't click the above link: those are not sales numbers. They are the results of a survey of 10,000 people by VitalMTB regarding what they plan on buying in 2020.
    Good clarification. One explanation is that 29er bikes in trail/all-mountain/enduro form are the new thing so that is what is attracting the attention of prospective buyers right now. The 29er all-mountain and enduro categories of bikes didn't really exist several years back until Evil released their Following. The key question for the 27.5" wheel outlook is how many of these new buyers of 29ers go back to 27.5 bikes for their next bike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
    Good clarification. One explanation is that 29er bikes in trail/all-mountain/enduro form are the new thing so that is what is attracting the attention of prospective buyers right now. The 29er all-mountain and enduro categories of bikes didn't really exist several years back until Evil released their Following. The key question for the 27.5" wheel outlook is how many of these new buyers of 29ers go back to 27.5 bikes for their next bike.
    The 29'er trail/Enduro market has blown up but it's not new. When did the enduro 29'er come out? 2012 I think? The first year of the EWS had 29'ers in competition, that was 13 I believe. Most viewed 29'ers as looking ugly and just not being cool back then. They had a stigma about them. It's not that we didn't have 29'er AM/enduro options. We've had a major culture change. We no longer make fun of wagon wheels, and say 29'ers are gay. What we are seeing now that's really different than when spec first put out the enduro 29 is the industry is marketing 29' like never before, with basically zero marketing for 650b. It's really not too different than 2013/14 when all the marketing attention was on 650b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiThundrrr View Post
    Quick clarification for those who didn't click the above link: those are not sales numbers. They are the results of a survey of 10,000 people by VitalMTB regarding what they plan on buying in 2020.
    Well, if you want sales numbers they are showing the same trend, but even more dramatic of a decline for 27.5”. For the beginning of this year, 27.5” sales were less than half of what they were last year, and as you can see below this, 27.5” sales were already on a huge decline last year. This is from earlier this year...

    “Within the subcategories there were some increases as some specific styles went in or out of fashion. For example, 27.5-inch full suspension bikes declined 54.5 percent in units, as tastes shifted to 29-inch full suspension bikes, where sales were up 61.3 percent.”

    https://www.bicycleretailer.com/stud...s#.XcOUsS-IahA


    And this is recapping all of 2018 and the 27.5” fad dying...

    “The mountain bike category, the biggest single bike style, overall was down 2 percent in dollars and 28 percent in units. Within that category, there was a dramatic switch-over from sales of 27.5-inch full suspension bikes back to 29-inch full-suspension.”

    https://www.bicycleretailer.com/stud...s#.XcOWNS-IahA


    So, here is what is going on with 27.5”. It is at the end of its product life cycle. The vitalmtb graph mimics this one and shows the customer base has been contracting which is one of the last stages with number of competitors falling being the last stage of the product life cycle.
    27.5 vs 29'er hype?-046ed0bd-d4a9-4826-bafd-46aecbb4d22e.jpg
    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.

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    The only people ANY of this affects is people who sell bicycles for a living and their employees.

    Consumers? Not at all. You will always be able to get what you want, or pretty close. The market is just huge so a small percentage of demand is enough demand for some enterprising person to make a profit. Voila, availability.

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    Too bad. I have the luxury of having both 27.5 and 29" bikes and they both are a blast. They marketing money has definitely switched over to the 29er side so not a surprise at all to see the sales of others sizes falling. Not planning on selling my Spider 275 any time soon though. There is just something fun about a light, flickable bike that transcends some of the traits of the 29ers. Especially if you are on the shorter end of the spectrum.

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    I think a big part of manufacturers jumping on the 29er bandwagon has a lot to due with stock and sku's. Wouldn't be easier and more cost effective to only have one wheel size instead of two bikes (or wheels, tires, forks) with almost identical spec?
    I own both but my main "go to bike" is my Turner RFX with 27.5 wheels.
    EXODUX Jeff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    I think a big part of manufacturers jumping on the 29er bandwagon has a lot to due with stock and sku's. Wouldn't be easier and more cost effective to only have one wheel size instead of two bikes (or wheels, tires, forks) with almost identical spec?
    I own both but my main "go to bike" is my Turner RFX with 27.5 wheels.
    Definitely the manufacturers would prefer to just have one wheel size, as standardization and mass production saves money. Giant tried to push 27.5 as that one size, but it didn't work out. In my limited experience, most riders I've known that tried both end up preferring 29. I'm a 6"2" clyde, so 29 is a no-brainer for me.

    27.5 has some definite benefits, especially for smaller and more aggressive riders. However most people are not riding at the level, and will end up being faster on a 29er, and preferring a machine that can mow down obstacles with less effort.
    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    Is it blue on one side and white on the other or did you buy two of whatever that is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiThundrrr View Post
    Here is the funny I was referring to above:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	max_wheelsizetobuy2_236824.jpg 
Views:	48 
Size:	97.5 KB 
ID:	1290985
    Both 27.5 and 27.5+ have dropped to about where 26 was 6 years ago. Not a good sign for our 27.5 riding amigos, if the trend follows how 26 went. Brace yourselves for forced obsolescence.

    Chart taken from this article:
    https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Wh...y-Results,2787
    Cool chart. I have to give them an F+ for making 27.5 orange red and 29 red orange though. Can't they just use blue?!

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by JACKL View Post
    Definitely the manufacturers would prefer to just have one wheel size, as standardization and mass production saves money. Giant tried to push 27.5 as that one size, but it didn't work out. In my limited experience, most riders I've known that tried both end up preferring 29. I'm a 6"2" clyde, so 29 is a no-brainer for me.

    27.5 has some definite benefits, especially for smaller and more aggressive riders. However most people are not riding at the level, and will end up being faster on a 29er, and preferring a machine that can mow down obstacles with less effort.
    As a short rider: with companies able to make 29ers with short CS a small or medium 29er no longer feels out of balance like some previous ones did.

    Slacker HA and longer front center with short stem remove the toe overlap issues as well.

    I have not had issues with 29 at my height (yes, even up to 29x3), but have seen some very short riders 5'3" or so that definitely had issues. Not to say a 29er can't work for them, but a 27.5 may make it easier to get the right fit and keep the bike nimble and fun.

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    The only people ANY of this affects is people who sell bicycles for a living and their employees.

    Consumers? Not at all. You will always be able to get what you want, or pretty close. The market is just huge so a small percentage of demand is enough demand for some enterprising person to make a profit. Voila, availability.
    Hardly. Market trends and sales data dictate what we have access to. Just because you can still find random old stock 26" parts, and limited new stuff, doesn't mean 26'ers didn't take a major hit in 2013. To think we won't see a major decline in availability for 650b is being ignorant of how the industry works. Especially these days where most companies are consolidated under larger companies which all use a handful of overseas manufacturing plants. Changes happen real fast because of this, and new manufacturing is a direct reflection of market trends and sales data. If you like E-bikes and 29'ers you'll have lots of stuff to choose from. 650b? We'll see what the industry does to address such poor interest? If it's not selling, don't expect much. If we start seeing new mold tires only offered in 29' it's going to be depressing, but not surprising. Why would a company invest in a new 650b tire mold if projected sales barely cover the investment? Just because there are a million 650b bikes out there means little. Existing molds will still be available. 650b owners will have no choice but to buy what's available guaranteeing profits without new investments. Yes we'll have options, but no we won't be able to "always get what we want"

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    I have not had issues with 29 at my height (yes, even up to 29x3), but have seen some very short riders 5'3" or so that definitely had issues. Not to say a 29er can't work for them, but a 27.5 may make it easier to get the right fit and keep the bike nimble and fun.
    Very true. When my kids transitioned from 24" wheeled bikes to adult bikes, I got them XS bikes with 26" wheels. 24" to 29" wheels would be a huge jump.
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  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar View Post
    There is just something fun about a light, flickable bike that transcends some of the traits of the 29ers.
    I completely agree. In the past year, I was thinking seriously about getting a medium travel 29er as my next bike and test rode the following bikes:

    • Pivot Trail 429
    • Yeti SB 4.5
    • Yeti SB 5.5
    • SC Tallboy
    • Yeti SB100
    • Revel Rascal
    • DeVinci Troy 29
    • Giant Trance 29
    • Yeti SB130


    I ended up on a 27.5 Ibis HD4 as what seemed to me as the best balance between downhill capability and a bike that still feels nimble in corners. The more downhill oriented 29ers, even with a medium level of travel, just felt like they were happier going straight than turning.
    Dirt Merchant Bikes
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  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    Yes we'll have options, but no we won't be able to "always get what we want"
    There are enough size Large frame riders who like 27 to ensure there will be frame makers supplying them far, far into the future. Consumers will get demand satisfied as evidenced by past trends. You're doing a lot of speculating but your speculating doesn't have support from either past experiences or reason. I feel zero concern over being able to buy the bike I want in ten years.

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    There are enough size Large frame riders who like 27 to ensure there will be frame makers supplying them far, far into the future. Consumers will get demand satisfied as evidenced by past trends. You're doing a lot of speculating but your speculating doesn't have support from either past experiences or reason. I feel zero concern over being able to buy the bike I want in ten years.
    This seems to neglect recent history. Remember 26? It's been less than ten years since the industry moved on from that size. Clearly, there are still people who want that size, I'm certainly one.
    Life is the sieve through which my anarchy strains, resolving itself into works

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    There are enough size Large frame riders who like 27 to ensure there will be frame makers supplying them far, far into the future. Consumers will get demand satisfied as evidenced by past trends. You're doing a lot of speculating but your speculating doesn't have support from either past experiences or reason. I feel zero concern over being able to buy the bike I want in ten years.
    Really?
    I remember being at the 2009 world champs, there were a few people riding 29ers in the Xc, they looked silly, most people thought they were "out there" riding those big wheel things (yes people knew what they were, just thought they were never going to take over from 26). 26 was still king of the hill in XC (and even more in DH).
    In late 2014 early 15 I went looking for a new bike, XC FS. Walking into any bike store in my state, there were Zero bikes you could buy, or order, in 26 in that category. That was 5 years or there about for a wheel size to go from totally dominant, to completely gone.
    650b seems to be on the same crash trajectory.
    Doesn't mean it will happen, but it definitely could.
    All the gear and no idea.

  107. #107
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    I'm 6', ride aggressively but prefer 27.5. My skill set and my height, I can ride any bike 27.5 or 29ers. I feel faster on the 27.5 because I believe you need a higher skill set to ride faster. My favorite bike is a full blown enduro bike, 170mm fr., 160mm rr . which I use for most of my rides, which consist of long days and lots of climbing, which you think my 29er would be better.
    My 29er is a short travel XC/ trail bike.
    EXODUX Jeff

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiThundrrr View Post
    This seems to neglect recent history. Remember 26? It's been less than ten years since the industry moved on from that size. Clearly, there are still people who want that size, I'm certainly one.
    What is keeping you from riding 26? If I didn't feel 27 was the same thing I'd still have some 26 bikes.

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    Really?
    I remember being at the 2009 world champs, there were a few people riding 29ers in the Xc, they looked silly, most people thought they were "out there" riding those big wheel things (yes people knew what they were, just thought they were never going to take over from 26). 26 was still king of the hill in XC (and even more in DH).
    In late 2014 early 15 I went looking for a new bike, XC FS. Walking into any bike store in my state, there were Zero bikes you could buy, or order, in 26 in that category. That was 5 years or there about for a wheel size to go from totally dominant, to completely gone.
    650b seems to be on the same crash trajectory.
    Doesn't mean it will happen, but it definitely could.
    oh that's easy. Buy a 27 frame, put on some offset shock bushings and run 26" wheels. Build up a set of custom 26" wheels on modern hubs with superlight carbon rims. I could ride a nice 26er right now if I wanted it enough. You can also buy new carbon dedicated 26er frames on aliexpress, and before you turn up your nose, plenty of people are happy on them. You didn't try hard enough bro.

  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    oh that's easy. Buy a 27 frame, put on some offset shock bushings and run 26" wheels. Build up a set of custom 26" wheels on modern hubs with superlight carbon rims. I could ride a nice 26er right now if I wanted it enough. You can also buy new carbon dedicated 26er frames on aliexpress, and before you turn up your nose, plenty of people are happy on them. You didn't try hard enough bro.
    oh no, you said "I feel zero concern over being able to buy the bike I want in ten years", so what you listed is that what you want? Or is that what you have to put up with.
    But that's not the point, your acting like in 10 years time 650b will still be mainstream:"you're doing a lot of speculating but your speculating en doesn't have support from either past experiences or reason" when it seems to be on a downward trajectory similar to 26, as that is what DID happen.
    Now that doesnt mean it will happen 650b, could stay popular for the next 1000 years, or it could go 26er.
    Of course 26 hasn't ceased to exist, you can still get bits, but it's so fringe (which is crazy as there has to be a bazzillion old 26ers still in circulation), and 650b has the potential to go the same way.
    All the gear and no idea.

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    If I wanted it enough. Did you miss that part in your psychoanalysis? lol

    In 10 years, 27 will still be mainstream. People just like it.

  112. #112
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    And people thought that 26 would not only be mainstream, but dominant...10 years ago. 5 years ago it looked like 650b might do over 29ers

    I guess in ten years we'll see, I don't know what will happen, but it is possible 650b will go down, maybe some other wheel size will get a big push and take them all out.
    All the gear and no idea.

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    If I wanted it enough. Did you miss that part in your psychoanalysis? lol

    In 10 years, 27 will still be mainstream. People just like it.
    "People like it" What's that based on? Surly not the vitalmtb data just released that shows less interest for 650b in 2019 than 26" in 2012. It's not even close. 80% of riders voted for 26 in 2012, only 32% voted for 650b in 2019. THis lack of interest shows up in the sales data posted too. Maybe your buddies and your local community prefers it, but you can't argue with the data. My main bike is 650b. I bought it because that's where the industry is. We all buy what the industry produces. THe idea that we have a choice is BS. We only have a choice if we don't care about geo, tire, rim choices, and a healthy aftermarket support.

    The industry is structured so we keep up or get left behind. If you think 650b is somehow immune from this you're delusional. Sure it seems unlikely considering just a few years ago it was looking like it would take over the industry, but that's not where we're at now. Have you looked at pinkbike's buy and sell lately. THer'es more 650b stuff than 26 and 29 combined! It's been that way for a good while too. I have been scooping up deals just like 2013 when everyone unloaded their 26'ers lol.

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    oh that's easy. Buy a 27 frame, put on some offset shock bushings and run 26" wheels. Build up a set of custom 26" wheels on modern hubs with superlight carbon rims. I could ride a nice 26er right now if I wanted it enough. You can also buy new carbon dedicated 26er frames on aliexpress, and before you turn up your nose, plenty of people are happy on them. You didn't try hard enough bro.
    You're talking about modifying something to have what you want because the industry isn't offering it. If interest isn't there the industry will not support 650b so it's a good thing you're expert in modifying bikes. I'm being a little sarcastic based on your offset bushing mod. Offset bushings want to settle in the slack short position. You can only reliably use an offset bushing in reverse on the front eyelet because there's little movement compared to the rear. If you're running a rear bushing in reverse check it after a number of rides. I've even experienced a front bushing rotating to the slack position on a suspension design that has little front eyelet movement. You're much better off long shocking assuming your frame allows for that.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    What is keeping you from riding 26? If I didn't feel 27 was the same thing I'd still have some 26 bikes.
    Find me a good steel HT 26er with 1x drivetrain in large. Not a 27 with rebuilt bushings and built up custom rims. Unavailability is what is stopping me. And if 27 and 26 were the same, you WOULD still be riding one.
    Life is the sieve through which my anarchy strains, resolving itself into works

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    You're talking about modifying something to have what you want because the industry isn't offering it.
    My main point is that 26 is so close to 27 that only a minor mod will get you there. Long shock, offset, shorter crank, whatever way you want to use.

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    oh no, you said "I feel zero concern over being able to buy the bike I want in ten years", so what you listed is that what you want? Or is that what you have to put up with.
    But that's not the point, your acting like in 10 years time 650b will still be mainstream:"you're doing a lot of speculating but your speculating en doesn't have support from either past experiences or reason" when it seems to be on a downward trajectory similar to 26, as that is what DID happen.
    Now that doesnt mean it will happen 650b, could stay popular for the next 1000 years, or it could go 26er.
    Of course 26 hasn't ceased to exist, you can still get bits, but it's so fringe (which is crazy as there has to be a bazzillion old 26ers still in circulation), and 650b has the potential to go the same way.

    Actually, what I've realized lately is that the boosted frame epidemic solves a lot of these 26/27.5 and 27.5/29 problems. At first I thought boost was just another marketing gimmick. And I admit I'm trying to avoid it like the plague so I can keep switching standard 100/135 wheelsets between frames without that incompatibility. But boost solves a LOT of frame sizing problems. If you have a 29" with a boosted frame and fork, you can run both 27.5+ and 29 x whatever tires. If you have a 27.5" with a boosted frame and fork you can run 26+ and 27.5 x whatever tires. You can have it both ways. You can have that too with standard frames but some may not be able to fit a 2.8 in the non-boost fork, and probably not a plus tire in back, otherwise, this debate is more or less pointless. You can run one tire size down with whatever frame you have. Unless you absolutely cannot stand a pedal strike once in a while, you can put one size down tires in your frame and be perfectly fine. A 26 x 2.4 is only one inch smaller than a 27.5 x 2.4, that's 1/2 inch of lower bottom bracket, not the end of the world is it? And like Schulze said you can modify the fork, get shorter cranks, etc., many things to compensate for this minor issue.

    And I don't get this "We are blind slaves to what the mountain bike industry feeds us". If there is enough demand for something, they will continue to build it. There are new 26" bikes out there, did you know that? Just because there are not 10,000 different 26" models now doesn't mean they don't exist anymore. I feel sorry for people that fall for hype, maybe they should just ride what they want and enjoy it, instead of worrying about what others say and think. This isn't Jr. High, unless people here make it like that.
    We ALL have something to learn here. Post helpful solutions instead of flaming for your own sadistic need.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiThundrrr View Post
    Find me a good steel HT 26er with 1x drivetrain in large. Not a 27 with rebuilt bushings and built up custom rims. Unavailability is what is stopping me. And if 27 and 26 were the same, you WOULD still be riding one.
    I'm highly amused how concerned you guys are about how unconcerned I am. You want one in steel? Why not bamboo since apparently you like crap? Just buy one in carbon and enjoy the fact it's two pounds lighter and better in every way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    And people thought that 26 would not only be mainstream, but dominant...10 years ago. 5 years ago it looked like 650b might do over 29ers

    I guess in ten years we'll see, I don't know what will happen, but it is possible 650b will go down, maybe some other wheel size will get a big push and take them all out.
    Probably a "best of both worlds!" 28(.25) inch wheel.

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    I'm highly amused how concerned you guys are about how unconcerned I am. You want one in steel? Why not bamboo since apparently you like crap? Just buy one in carbon and enjoy the fact it's two pounds lighter and better in every way.
    I see why you stated that you were not concerned with "being able to buy the bike I want in ten years", instead of "people being able to buy the bike they want in ten years". Your choices are all perfect, everyone just needs to want what you want. What size carbon bike should I choose? Which "standard" should I buy into? What would you get to make me happy?
    Life is the sieve through which my anarchy strains, resolving itself into works

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    I recently built a 130mm 27.5 with 2.5" tires after spending the past 7 years on a 100mm 29er with 2.25" tires. What I always felt was a downside of the 29er was maneuverability through twisty tight climbs. Easy to overshoot the line, and hard to get it back. The 27.5 is a noticeable more nimble bike, reminiscent of my old 26er. For flowy/rooty faster sections, the two bikes feel the same. Could be a bit more tire size and suspension take off some of the chatter. The 29er holds speed better, but the 27.5 seems to spin up a bit easier. I'd call it a wash. Where the 29er seems to excel is over more gnarly rock gardens, or clearing an old stone wall. the bigger tires seem to hang up a little less and the 29er bike just seems to track better than the 27.5 when its really rocky. To me, the 27.5 feels a little closer to the 29 than a 26. But bigger tires are probably swinging it that way. No regrets, and the fact that I can pick my way through the local trails without bailing is a big plus. It takes more skill to handle the really rough rock gardens on the 27.5, but that's ok. Gives me something to strive for.

  122. #122
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    Didn't think I'd be saying this but a 29" is not the best in all situations. A lot of trail riding I now do has evolved (or devolved) into very un-groomed, "out-there", rugged, rumbly, type trails - basically, legal to ride, remote hiking trails. I find a full size 2.6" tire with a heavier casing on a wider rim and lower psi is just the ticket. Traction is needed on these trails or you will be dabbing or hike-a-biking every 2 minutes. A 29" with such burly rubber seems like just too much tire. Too much tire to spin up on tough climbs. Too much tire for the bike to feel nimble. If I could find a tough, supportive, casing in a 2.8 I might even consider that.

    That said, on my trail/XC rig the 29 rules. The power to the pedal with a 29" wheel covers a lot more ground per stroke. They just roll better.

    Its great to use the right tool for the job.

  123. #123
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    Like PeterF1963 I have both a 130/125mm 27.5 (SC 5010 v1) with 2.4 tires and a 100mm 29er (SC Blur cc) with 2.25 tires.

    Love both, but for all around play and good fun the 27.5 5010 wins.
    Never underestimate an old man with a mountain bike.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiThundrrr View Post
    Quick clarification for those who didn't click the above link: those are not sales numbers. They are the results of a survey of 10,000 people by VitalMTB regarding what they plan on buying in 2020.
    I agree that's a worthwhile clarification.

    Those getting ready to purchase-
    if wanting to put their faith in what others say they think they will buy in that moment they were asked-

    Yeah, good info as in any information is good information !!

    Nothing wrong with doing research and homework when shopping but what's between the ears and the ride and feel/response while test riding bikes is a thing. Marketing and hype hits a certain category of buyers and yet seasoned bikers know what hey want and like. Many of us will always ride and own the bikes that fit us best, suit our types/style of riding or terrain etc.... and nobody defines that for us. We'll find buy or build the bikes as per wheels, sizes geo and all other accouterment.

    Going back to the year/s of earlier posts, I understand the questions and confusion. In a slow and accidental way, I became a shopper and reader of newer bike tech and trends going from my baseline of an early 2000's h/t to something in the 2017 model year.
    Wheel sizes, frame geo and 10 dedicated styles or types of mtn bike's was a hell of a puzzle to solve as if coming out of nowhere !
    bachman must spread some Reputation around before giving it to himself again. :madman:


  125. #125
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    5010 V1 Question

    I also have a 5010 V1 (140/125). I agree that the bike is a lot of fun.

    I see that you run 2.4 tires. Are you still using the original 23 ID rims? If not, what are you running with the 2.4 tires?

    I currently have 2.3 Maxxis High Roller II at 23 PSI* front and rear but they are due for replacement. I was considering sticking with 2.3 and trying the Minions. Any other suggestions would be welcome.

    Also, what 2.4 tires are you using and do you have 2.4 in the rear?

    FYI, I have the original Pike and increased the travel to 140mm this year. Though an additional 10mm isn't much difference and it only changed the head angle by 1/2 degree, the new R/S inners are much improved over what was standard in 2015. The cost for the change was $125.

    * I weigh 200 lbs and ride the usual rocky, rooty, tight trails you find in the Northeast.

    Thanks for your input.
    Rev

  126. #126
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    I ride 90% Trail so 27.5 is ideal for me tbh. My friend has a identical trail bike. XL frame but with 29". When we switch bike I feel that his bike is better over busy trails but it doesn't feel as fun and aggressive. I recon for XC 29" would be ideal.

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev Bubba View Post
    I also have a 5010 V1 (140/125). I agree that the bike is a lot of fun.

    I see that you run 2.4 tires. Are you still using the original 23 ID rims? If not, what are you running with the 2.4 tires?

    I currently have 2.3 Maxxis High Roller II at 23 PSI* front and rear but they are due for replacement. I was considering sticking with 2.3 and trying the Minions. Any other suggestions would be welcome.

    Also, what 2.4 tires are you using and do you have 2.4 in the rear?

    FYI, I have the original Pike and increased the travel to 140mm this year. Though an additional 10mm isn't much difference and it only changed the head angle by 1/2 degree, the new R/S inners are much improved over what was standard in 2015. The cost for the change was $125.

    * I weigh 200 lbs and ride the usual rocky, rooty, tight trails you find in the Northeast.

    Thanks for your input.
    Rev
    Yep, still have 23mm ID rims. I'm trying Terravail Honchos (tan) front and rear which so far I really like for Souther California and measure 2.4 exactly at 25 psi.

    I had a Pike on it until recently...just put a new Fox 34 Factory Float 130mm on. Lighter, stiffer and better in every way. Also just put a Cane Creek DB IL Coil on. Silky smooth.
    Never underestimate an old man with a mountain bike.

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiThundrrr View Post
    Quick clarification for those who didn't click the above link: those are not sales numbers. They are the results of a survey of 10,000 people by VitalMTB regarding what they plan on buying in 2020.
    This is utter nonsense, so why even use it?

    Hype is hype, nothing is going to become obsolete anytime soon, even 24" wheels and tires have remained in production.

    Look at cars and motos if you want to know about obsolescence ... you can still gets wheels and tires for cars made fifty years ago.

    Now suspension obsolescence, yeah, that's likely.
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  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev Bubba View Post
    I also have a 5010 V1 (140/125). I agree that the bike is a lot of fun.

    I see that you run 2.4 tires. Are you still using the original 23 ID rims? If not, what are you running with the 2.4 tires?

    I currently have 2.3 Maxxis High Roller II at 23 PSI* front and rear but they are due for replacement. I was considering sticking with 2.3 and trying the Minions. Any other suggestions would be welcome.

    Also, what 2.4 tires are you using and do you have 2.4 in the rear?

    * I weigh 200 lbs and ride the usual rocky, rooty, tight trails you find in the Northeast.

    Thanks for your input.
    Rev
    I am a fellow Clydesdale from the North East (Southeast Mass, so Wompatuck is my home park), and familiar with the rocks and roots of which you speak. My 27.5 is a SC Solo C (130/125mm) which was renamed to the 5010. My rims are Stan's Arch with a 26mm ID, and am using Conti Trail King 2.4's front and back, which measure to 2.5". I would say its a comfortable amount of clearance. I could probably go up a size, but wouldn't go more than another mm or so. I like the trail kings. Im not a tire expert, but they seem to give the right amount of grip vs rolling resistant. I am new to the 27.5 size, so can only compare to 29er tires. have had Conti X Kings, which are faster but not as grippy, and Ardents which I would say might be a bit between the X kings and the Trail kings.

  130. #130
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    Thanks for the info on the Trail Kings. I used Continents on other bikes.
    I have Ardents on my 26" HT and they are definitely more XC then I'm looking for on the 5010.

    How well do the Trail Kings hold the Stan's sealant? I notice a lot of seepage on my current Maxxis High Roller's.

  131. #131
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    Thanks for the input.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev Bubba View Post
    Thanks for the info on the Trail Kings. I used Continents on other bikes.
    I have Ardents on my 26" HT and they are definitely more XC then I'm looking for on the 5010.

    How well do the Trail Kings hold the Stan's sealant? I notice a lot of seepage on my current Maxxis High Roller's.
    no seepage, and they set up without a compressor. I do need to pump them up weekly, but I've only had the bike a month, and tried to go light on the sealant.

    my Ardents seep for months after mounting..

  133. #133
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    My experience with a number of tubeless tires was that seepage was normal. I also pumped the tires up weekly. Riding 2.3 tires at 23 psi doesn't allow much leeway when you weigh 200 lbs. and have rocky trails.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev Bubba View Post
    Thanks for the info on the Trail Kings. I used Continents on other bikes.
    I have Ardents on my 26" HT and they are definitely more XC then I'm looking for on the 5010.

    How well do the Trail Kings hold the Stan's sealant? I notice a lot of seepage on my current Maxxis High Roller's.
    I run a Mountain King front and X King rear on my 5010v2. I come from Maxxis Minions. Much less seepage of sealant from the Contis. It might be love. It’s definitely deep affection.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  135. #135
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    This is utter nonsense, so why even use it?
    I dunno Ben.
    Seems like they already told everyone what they are going buy so the facts are already out there and can't be disputed .
    The deck is stacked and like a weather report, the current unwavering promise of acquiring a new full sus in matte black by the end of the week will be met with reality;

    A metallic crystal white hard tail by the magical powers invested in milquetoast commitment.
    bachman must spread some Reputation around before giving it to himself again. :madman:


  136. #136
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    ^looks like those monkeys got ahold of the keyboard again
    Life is the sieve through which my anarchy strains, resolving itself into works

  137. #137
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    Yes, surprising enough, the monkeys get some keyboard time.

    In the context of a "retro grouch" professing survey results for buying intuition, I'm letting the hair on my knuckles grow !


    bachman must spread some Reputation around before giving it to himself again. :madman:


  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev Bubba View Post
    My experience with a number of tubeless tires was that seepage was normal. I also pumped the tires up weekly. Riding 2.3 tires at 23 psi doesn't allow much leeway when you weigh 200 lbs. and have rocky trails.
    Try Orange Seal original formula sealant. No Seepage, it coats the inside of tires better than some other brands, but dries out faster. Just FYI.
    Front Range Forum Moderator

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