2.5 and 2.4 WT on i25 rims?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    2.5 and 2.4 WT on i25 rims?

    Thinking of a 2.5WT DHF and 2.4WT Rekon on my daughter's SB5 with the stock XM421 rims. Any reason this is a bad idea? From reading other threads it seems the 2.5/2.4 width is no big deal, but I'm wondering if the 'WT' changes that?

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  2. #2
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    The WT's are optimized for 30-35mm inner rims. That doesn't mean you can't use narrower rims, just that you may not get the best out of the tire. I'm running the 29x2.6WT DHF and the 29x2.5WT Aggressor on 27mm inner rims. I'm not seeing a difference from when I ran them on 30mm.

    From the Maxxis website: "Wide trail (WT) casing specs are optimized for 30-35mm inner width rims".

  3. #3
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    Its about lean angle. You gotta lean the DHR/F's.

    The normal ones on too wide rims makes the shoulder blocks touch at too low of an angle.

    The WT's on narrow rims makes the dead zone huge and the cornering knobs might never hook up. That means you lean the bike and it'll slide out from under you.

    I might go as far as saying WT's on 25mm rims is dangerous. Thats all dead zone.

  4. #4
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    Thanks man. I've seen that but, since the 2.5 and 2.4 widths are otherwise well within the common practice for i25 rims, I'm wondering how much difference the WT makes.

    She's <120lbs, and not an aggressive rider. Better climber than descender, which is why I'm thinking of the better rolling Rekon in back, if that matters.

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  5. #5
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    At her weight and riding style (better climber than descender) you might find better tire combo's anyway. If she doesn't get the bike leaned over effectively, something with more transition knobs might be better, regardless of rim width. My DHR's corner like crazy, but I get the bike over. My wife runs a 27.5x2.6 Nobby Nic front and back (I used to as well). I know some people out here in the Wasatch also like the Forecaster, if you prefer Maxxis. If you are concerned, run a non-WT.

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    Good feedback, guys. I may just stick with 2.3 and find something else for the rear. She's new to MTB, after riding on rentals this summer, so there's some possibility I'm overthinking this...

    Mark

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  7. #7
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    First of all, measure the actual tire width both from the side knobs and the casing. I can pretty much guarantee that they are not really 2.4 or 2.5 especially on a 25mm rim. They are probably 2.20 to 2.35 at the side knobs and 2.00 to 2.20 at the casing. Which means they are not 'real' 2.4 or 2.5. They are going to be significantly thinner than advertised. Which in your case is a good thing because then there will be no issue since the tire to rim ratio will be OK after all.

    My Rekon WT 2.4's on 22mm internal rims measured 2.20 knobs and 2.00 casing. I doubt 25mm rims are going to stretch them out much more than that.

    The only issue is if the front tire is too skinny to handle obstacles for her skill level. The potential problem is tire width vs. skill level, not tire to rim ratio. All this talk about 'optimizing' tires and rims is for very skilled riders that are taking corners at 15+ mph, not for beginners and aspiring intermediates who tend to go downhill at 8-18 MPH and take corners much more slow and careful anyway.
    We ALL have something to learn here. Post helpful solutions instead of flaming for your own sadistic need.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    First of all, measure the actual tire width both from the side knobs and the casing. I can pretty much guarantee that they are not really 2.4 or 2.5 especially on a 25mm rim. They are probably 2.20 to 2.35 at the side knobs and 2.00 to 2.20 at the casing. Which means they are not 'real' 2.4 or 2.5. They are going to be significantly thinner than advertised. Which in your case is a good thing because then there will be no issue since the tire to rim ratio will be OK after all.

    My Rekon WT 2.4's on 22mm internal rims measured 2.20 knobs and 2.00 casing. I doubt 25mm rims are going to stretch them out much more than that.

    The only issue is if the front tire is too skinny to handle obstacles for her skill level. The potential problem is tire width vs. skill level, not tire to rim ratio. All this talk about 'optimizing' tires and rims is for very skilled riders that are taking corners at 15+ mph, not for beginners and aspiring intermediates who tend to go downhill at 8-18 MPH and take corners much more slow and careful anyway.
    You are exactly right on the last part, and that's why I was thinking wider.

    I'm not sure I agree on the significantly narrower part, assuming you meant Maxxis run narrow as a brand. My wife's 2.6 DHF (on i35) and my 2.3 (on i25) measure almost exactly that at the casing. (I just measured them.) The 2.4 Ardent (on i25) is skinny, at 2.29.

    Mark

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Its about lean angle. You gotta lean the DHR/F's.

    The normal ones on too wide rims makes the shoulder blocks touch at too low of an angle.

    The WT's on narrow rims makes the dead zone huge and the cornering knobs might never hook up. That means you lean the bike and it'll slide out from under you.

    I might go as far as saying WT's on 25mm rims is dangerous. Thats all dead zone.
    Dangerous? Guess you didn't notice Brosnan runs WT tires on 25mm rims. You also missed this years DH world champ's set up. You guessed it WT tires, 25mm rims.

    https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-...ture-Tire,3021

    https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/WI...ized-Demo,2672

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    Dangerous? Guess you didn't notice Brosnan runs WT tires on 25mm rims. You also missed this years DH world champ's set up. You guessed it WT tires, 25mm rims.

    https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-...ture-Tire,3021

    https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/WI...ized-Demo,2672
    Oh come on man.

    I don't set my bike up like a pro, on purpose. I'm not leaning like that, and I'm not that fast. So it's dangerous to run a setup that *needs* to be leaned.

  11. #11
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    Using Cushcore or some variant at low pressures mitigates this a lot.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    First of all, measure the actual tire width both from the side knobs and the casing. I can pretty much guarantee that they are not really 2.4 or 2.5 especially on a 25mm rim. They are probably 2.20 to 2.35 at the side knobs and 2.00 to 2.20 at the casing. Which means they are not 'real' 2.4 or 2.5. They are going to be significantly thinner than advertised. Which in your case is a good thing because then there will be no issue since the tire to rim ratio will be OK after all.

    My Rekon WT 2.4's on 22mm internal rims measured 2.20 knobs and 2.00 casing. I doubt 25mm rims are going to stretch them out much more than that.

    The only issue is if the front tire is too skinny to handle obstacles for her skill level. The potential problem is tire width vs. skill level, not tire to rim ratio. All this talk about 'optimizing' tires and rims is for very skilled riders that are taking corners at 15+ mph, not for beginners and aspiring intermediates who tend to go downhill at 8-18 MPH and take corners much more slow and careful anyway.
    Are you measuring after stretch? Every maxxis 2.4 (DHR) I've measured after stretch runs true to size. I just bought an assegai 2.5 WT mounted to 25mm rim. Measured 2.4 new and basically spot on 2.5 after a month of stretching. Leaving a tire at high psi when not being used will speed up stretch but I've found you have to flex the casing over and over via riding before you see the actual size.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Oh come on man.

    I don't set my bike up like a pro, on purpose. I'm not leaning like that, and I'm not that fast. So it's dangerous to run a setup that *needs* to be leaned.
    It's bad advice to tell people WT on 25mm rims is "dangerous." Lots of people are doing it, not just pros. It's less "dangerous" than a tire designed around 19mm to 23mm on a 30 to 35mm rim. That set up locks the shoulder lugs in so early you push past the sweet spot at very low lean angles. Riders that dont' have a good feel for that are prone to washing out way more than WT on 25mm which warns the rider immediately as they transition from center to shoulder lugs.

  14. #14
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    Yeah. Splitting' hairs.

    After running a DHF/R on EX471s (25i)on the DH rig for years, and going to a FR560 (30i) I'm going back to the 471. Too many rim dings.

    Yes the DHF does need to be leaned to hook up so maybe there are better choices for the non-advanced rider but i25 or a i30 - a difference it does not make, IMO.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Yeah. Splitting' hairs.

    After running a DHF/R on EX471s (25i)on the DH rig for years, and going to a FR560 (30i) I'm going back to the 471. Too many rim dings.

    Yes the DHF does need to be leaned to hook up so maybe there are better choices for the non-advanced rider but i25 or a i30 - a difference it does not make, IMO.
    Totally. I'm playing with a goofy set up right now. Mini mullet 26"/27" with a front ex471 rim assegai WT 2.5, and non WT DHR 2.4 in the back mounted to 29mm rim. Profile on both tires is fine though the rear is hair more square than I like.

    Like you said, the DHF needs to be leaned. It's really not a good tire for riders that aren't comfortable with drifting, and leaning aggressively. It doesn't brake that well, or roll that well, but when it comes to controllable drifting it has no peers. The DHR is a lot more buttoned down while still allowing aggressive leaning and drifting once the rider is ready. The assegai requires zero leaning skills. There is no drift zone. It's all traction until you push past the shoulder lugs but you still get warning and a controllable drift somehow. Not sure what kind of magic Minnaar used but it's a darn good pattern. I was scared to push it for a while because I couldn't find the drift point. I was thinking it was one of those tires that's all traction until it's not. Of course the goat would never design a tire like that.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    Totally. I'm playing with a goofy set up right now. Mini mullet 26"/27" with a front ex471 rim assegai WT 2.5, and non WT DHR 2.4 in the back mounted to 29mm rim. Profile on both tires is fine though the rear is hair more square than I like.

    Like you said, the DHF needs to be leaned. It's really not a good tire for riders that aren't comfortable with drifting, and leaning aggressively. It doesn't brake that well, or roll that well, but when it comes to controllable drifting it has no peers. The DHR is a lot more buttoned down while still allowing aggressive leaning and drifting once the rider is ready. The assegai requires zero leaning skills. There is no drift zone. It's all traction until you push past the shoulder lugs but you still get warning and a controllable drift somehow. Not sure what kind of magic Minnaar used but it's a darn good pattern. I was scared to push it for a while because I couldn't find the drift point. I was thinking it was one of those tires that's all traction until it's not. Of course the goat would never design a tire like that.
    Yes.

    The Assegai is very forgiving and grips no matter how you ride it. For years ran the DHF/R setup but last season went full Assegai. Biggest benefit is that I can rely a lot more on the front brake. It saves a whole lotta wear and tear on the rear for DH. Out back it does roll more slowly however. For the less demanding mountains I ride next season I'm going to try a Assegai front, DHF rear. The DHF rolls better than both the Assegai and DHR and since I've now got a better stopper up front...

  17. #17
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    Another good choice without a dead spot when leaning the bike over is the Schwalbe Hans Dampf.
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    Just to add a data point for anyone considering which rubber to buy:

    Front OG hans dampf 2.35 on 21mm inner rim. Going to swap for 27mm rim soon for stability. It works fine but there is a point that I can feel the casing squirming around in corners. This tire was not tough enough nor grippy enough on the rear.

    Rear DHR 2.4 WT on 27mm inner. Profile looks good, a little more square than the front wheel. I have taken it into hard corners and no worries about leaning past the cornering knobs or breaking loose.

  19. #19
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    OP, if you still havenít bought tires, I recently put the Rekon 2.4WT on a flow 25.5mmi rim. Little narrow abut the corner knobs arenít located anywhere out of the norm. Iíd say no problem running that tire.

    The Bontrager xr4 is an awesome tire to consider if the DHF in WT casing bothers you. Iím not a fan of the dead zone being that we have lots of low speed corners where I ride and leaning deep into turns isnít always possible so you end up in the dead zone for too long.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnigro View Post

    The Bontrager xr4 is an awesome tire to consider if the DHF in WT casing bothers you. Iím not a fan of the dead zone being that we have lots of low speed corners where I ride and leaning deep into turns isnít always possible so you end up in the dead zone for too long.
    I never thought I'd jump on the Bontrager tire bandwagon, but I put some XR4 TE on my 29er a few months back and I've loved them. I was looking for something that had more traction than the Rekon and Barzos I'd been running but didn't want something as heavy as a DHF or Magic Mary. These seem to fit the bill well. I've heard that in rocky areas they wear quickly, but that isn't much of an issue where I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar View Post
    I never thought I'd jump on the Bontrager tire bandwagon, but I put some XR4 TE on my 29er a few months back and I've loved them. I was looking for something that had more traction than the Rekon and Barzos I'd been running but didn't want something as heavy as a DHF or Magic Mary. These seem to fit the bill well. I've heard that in rocky areas they wear quickly, but that isn't much of an issue where I am.
    Yeah, the xr4 steals itís tread pattern from the Trail King which is a well liked tire. When I bought the XR4 and put it next to the TK the trad spacing matched up perfectly with the only exception being XR4 having a straight line of shoulder lugs vs Conti coming in/out periodically.

    Makes sense that people like the xr4.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    Are you measuring after stretch? Every maxxis 2.4 (DHR) I've measured after stretch runs true to size. I just bought an assegai 2.5 WT mounted to 25mm rim. Measured 2.4 new and basically spot on 2.5 after a month of stretching. Leaving a tire at high psi when not being used will speed up stretch but I've found you have to flex the casing over and over via riding before you see the actual size.
    Mine don't stretch for some reason, maybe because I have tubes in them? I dunno why. I'm going to make two tires tubeless for now and keep the rest tubed because those other tires and often the rims are heavy to begin with, that's the only reason I would do tubeless to reduce weight; I don't care about the improved trail feel that much either way. Rare now to get a flat with tubes and sealant but it can happen. Not to get off topic but about 2 months ago I went down a rocky stretch, made the mistake of sitting down on about a 10-inch drop right on to a large flat rock, and BOOM rim strike in back lol. I'm like oops, that didn't feel good, hope I didn't get a flat. The tube went flat in 8 seconds, totally blown. And that was dangerous because it was almost twilight and I found out later from some military dudes doing wilderness training that a mountain lion was stalking them about a mile away. So flats in the evening can be really bad if you are alone.

    I was going to do a third tire tubeless but the frigging advertising was wrong (again, not the first time it happened). Thought I was getting internal 25mm and it came as 20mm. The 2.8 I mounted actually seems OK, better than I thought but it's a tire to rim ratio of 3.0, a bit scary for a plus tire (casing width is 2.35, knobs luckily stayed at 2.60). I don't want the LBS to have any liability for a 'dangerous' tire/rim situation so I just threw a tube in. Two wobbles on each side, I would classify them as moderate, livable, will try on dirt soon to see if it's OK.
    We ALL have something to learn here. Post helpful solutions instead of flaming for your own sadistic need.

  23. #23
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    Way too much analysis for a beginner rider. I think MSU hit it on the head with something with good transition knobs. Or if it already has tires, just wear 'em out and make a decision then based on her skill/interest [email protected] lbs that may be a while.
    :nono: :thumbsup:

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    Yeah, I have 2.6f and 2.4r on 31.8. It might be considered optimum for 10/10ths performance, but I donít see them squeezed in 1/8Ē more each side being a night/day, safe/hazard situation. If anything the extra volume is going to be more forgiving.

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