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  1. #201
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    Sorry! My mistake. I thought I was in the 26er forum, discussing wether or not 26 would rise from the ashes. Will 52 ever rise?
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  2. #202
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    [QUOTE=J.B. Weld;14408833]I didn't say that shops carried antique stuff, most don't stock 52" solid rubber tires for those old high wheel bikes either.[/QU

    So well stocked shops still exist, but well stocked doesn't include "antiquated" 26" rims or QR hubs? It's only been 5 years since 26" was the main wheel size, and while QR hubs have been replaced for almost 10 now that doesn't change the fact that there are lots of bikes out there with old standards that need service. You can't have it both ways buddy. You want to argue that "well stocked shops still exist," but then you make excuses for shops not supporting standards that are only 5 years old? There was a time, and it really wasn't that long ago, when we never wondered if a shop could take care of us. Those days are gone. Gone like your sanity.

  3. #203
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    Man, you guys are touchy, I guess that's how the term "retro grouch" came about.

    ^that's a joke, apparently my jokes are so lame I have to explain to them

    Anyway my posts were only half in jest. There are well stocked shops, I know this for a fact because I work in one. If people were clamoring for nice 26" 135mm qr wheels we'd definitely stock them if it were possible but as it is we just have basic ones that people occasionally buy for their kids or beater bikes.

    I don't think 26" will rise from the ashes any time soon but that's only my opinion.
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    Biospace chain rings came back and they were a lot less popular than 26 inch wheels. lol I, for one will not let the 26ich wheel die. I am a father of 7 and those wheels are great for the smaller riders. I think they will always have a place somewhere in the market.

  5. #205
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    Here's some interesting data just posted by vital:

    https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Wh...y-Results,2787

    Notice the wheel size data. In 2012 most riders were buying 26 even more than 29, then of course 650b took off like wild fire, now 29 has passed 650b. 650 is on a downward trend much lower than 26 in 2102. So if this downward trend continues, what will the industry do to ramp up sales for smaller wheels? Or will the industry just let 29 take over the entire mainstream market?

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    I think wheels will become bike size dependent in the end. It's already happening. GT avalanche for example, is a 29'er in larger sizes, and 650b in smaller sizes. Trek caliber 8 I looked at last year was the same. 26 would slot in on the very small to "big kid" kids sizes.

    People just need to get over the idea of one size fits all now. Why would a 5'0 tall woman try to ride a 29er that is more fit for a person 6'3? And why would someone 6'9 ride a 29er when a 32" wheel would fit better? (someone is already jumping on the giant wheels for giant people idea)

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    It's sad, but we can't even count on shops to stock 26" j bends anymore. Times have changed.
    26" spokes for exactly what hub/rim/count/cross/butting combination?

    You sound like you are under the impression you can go in and just get a '26" spoke' and it's going to work for any 26" wheel,

    Yeah...no.
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  8. #208
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    I posted this elsewhere too, but I think it is useful here too. 27.5 and 27.5+ size sales have fallen to where 26 was 6 years ago.
    Will the 26er ever rise from the ashes?-max_wheelsizetobuy2_236824.jpg
    Is 27 going out like 26 did, and if the standard becomes "obsolete", could that possibly contribute to a resurgence in 26? To me, if we have 2 sizes to choose from, it would make the most sense to spread em out to broaden the range.
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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    26" spokes for exactly what hub/rim/count/cross/butting combination?

    You sound like you are under the impression you can go in and just get a '26" spoke' and it's going to work for any 26" wheel,

    Yeah...no.
    Yes I am saying we used to be able to go into any shop and know they had spokes that would work. There's a 1 to 2mm window so it's not hard for a shop to carry every possible flange/rim combo length. The shop I worked at had a library of 26" j bends. There was no hub flange size or rim we couldn't work with. Now some shops aren't stocking 26" spokes period. Just to be clear I'm talking generic j bends, not straight pull or anything proprietary.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiThundrrr View Post
    I posted this elsewhere too, but I think it is useful here too. 27.5 and 27.5+ size sales have fallen to where 26 was 6 years ago.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	max_wheelsizetobuy2_236824.jpg 
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    Is 27 going out like 26 did, and if the standard becomes "obsolete", could that possibly contribute to a resurgence in 26? To me, if we have 2 sizes to choose from, it would make the most sense to spread em out to broaden the range.
    I agree, 26 and 29 makes a lot more sense. The interesting thing about this data is the ratio of riders interested in 29 vs 650b is far more lopsided than 26 vs 29 before 650b. I guess a lot of that has to do with how crappy 29'ers were in 2012. It's just nuts that in 2012 80% of riders preferred 26" over 29, and in 2019 only 32% prefer 650b over 29.

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    This graph is so interesting to see... 2012 seems to be the year when the industry decided to kill off the 26er. The way the graph behaves - it's clear that 27.5 was used to replace the 26er - you can see that the 26er and 27.5 graphs are corelated and show a drastic change in short amount of time, while the 29 graph shows a more organic change.
    The rapid drop in 26er sales coincided with a rapid rise in 27.5 sales, yet the difference between these 2 sizes is not so significant to warrant such rapid replacement of one by the other - unless the customers were forced to buy 27.5 by the mere fact that 26ers were unavailable. Drop in sales like that would normally not happen unless there was some sort of a major safety concern relating to a 26er - which there wasn't. What other explanation can there be for such rapid drop in sales of 26er that coincides with such rapid growth in 27.5 bikes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    This graph is so interesting to see... 2012 seems to be the year when the industry decided to kill off the 26er. The way the graph behaves - it's clear that 27.5 was used to replace the 26er - you can see that the 26er and 27.5 graphs are corelated and show a drastic change in short amount of time, while the 29 graph shows a more organic change.
    The rapid drop in 26er sales coincided with a rapid rise in 27.5 sales, yet the difference between these 2 sizes is not so significant to warrant such rapid replacement of one by the other - unless the customers were forced to buy 27.5 by the mere fact that 26ers were unavailable. Drop in sales like that would normally not happen unless there was some sort of a major safety concern relating to a 26er - which there wasn't. What other explanation can there be for such rapid drop in sales of 26er that coincides with such rapid growth in 27.5 bikes?
    It's because the industry pulled the plug on 26 basically overnight. This graph isn't a reflection of actual sales, it's a survey of what people want to buy at the time. Of course very few said they were going to buy 26" after 2012. There were nearly no options at that point. I'm not saying the graph would look dramatically different if equal options had existed, but we can't say one way or the other. Add in the biggest marketing push we've ever seen, geo changes, new tires and wheels only available in 650b, and even hold outs like me bought 650b. The most interesting thing about this data to me is how few want to buy 650b in 2019 compared to 26 in 2012. While vital might not be the best gage for the market as a whole, it's a good representation of what experienced riders are interested in. Clearly 650b is less desirable in 2019 than 26" was in 2012. Not just by a little bit either. The industry will take note of this data.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiThundrrr View Post
    I posted this elsewhere too, but I think it is useful here too. 27.5 and 27.5+ size sales have fallen to where 26 was 6 years ago.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	max_wheelsizetobuy2_236824.jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	97.5 KB 
ID:	1290993
    Is 27 going out like 26 did, and if the standard becomes "obsolete", could that possibly contribute to a resurgence in 26? To me, if we have 2 sizes to choose from, it would make the most sense to spread em out to broaden the range.
    This is NOT a graph of sales. This graph represents what people were INTENDING to buy in the future, according to a VitalMTB readership survey.

    Here is the complete graphic:
    Name:  VitalMTB.PNG
Views: 40
Size:  68.5 KB

    Here is the article that comes from: https://www.bicycleretailer.com/prod...e-shreddy-29er

    You can find a link to the VitalMTB study there.
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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    This graph is so interesting to see... 2012 seems to be the year when the industry decided to kill off the 26er. The way the graph behaves - it's clear that 27.5 was used to replace the 26er - you can see that the 26er and 27.5 graphs are corelated and show a drastic change in short amount of time, while the 29 graph shows a more organic change.
    The rapid drop in 26er sales coincided with a rapid rise in 27.5 sales, yet the difference between these 2 sizes is not so significant to warrant such rapid replacement of one by the other - unless the customers were forced to buy 27.5 by the mere fact that 26ers were unavailable. Drop in sales like that would normally not happen unless there was some sort of a major safety concern relating to a 26er - which there wasn't. What other explanation can there be for such rapid drop in sales of 26er that coincides with such rapid growth in 27.5 bikes?
    See my response above with the full original graphic.... That graph is NOT showing sales. It is being incorrectly interpreted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    See my response above with the full original graphic.... That graph is NOT showing sales. It is being incorrectly interpreted.
    My mistake - thank you for clarifying - I wonder what was the sampling size of this survey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    My mistake - thank you for clarifying - I wonder what was the sampling size of this survey.
    I updated my post above with a link to the article it came from.
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  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    This is NOT a graph of sales. This graph represents what people were INTENDING to buy in the future, according to a VitalMTB readership "study".

    Here is the complete graphic:
    Name:  VitalMTB.PNG
Views: 40
Size:  68.5 KB
    Thank you for the correction. My attention to detail isn't always the greatest!


    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    My mistake - thank you for clarifying - I wonder what was the sampling size of this survey.
    Here is the full article I pulled the graph from:
    https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Wh...y-Results,2787
    They say their sample size was 10,000 "mountain bikers". Not sure if that means they asked riders, or readers of their page. There is some other interesting stuff in there as well.
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  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiThundrrr View Post
    Thank you for the correction. My attention to detail isn't always the greatest!




    Here is the full article I pulled the graph from:
    https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Wh...y-Results,2787
    They say their sample size was 10,000 "mountain bikers". Not sure if that means they asked riders, or readers of their page. There is some other interesting stuff in there as well.
    Vital runs surveys all the time. I participated in this one I'm sure but they didn't say the data would be public. I just assumed it was to sell to their sponsors like PB does.

    On another thread someone posted actual sales charts that mirror vital's data. 650b sales have tanked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    It's because the industry pulled the plug on 26 basically overnight. This graph isn't a reflection of actual sales, it's a survey of what people want to buy at the time. Of course very few said they were going to buy 26" after 2012. There were nearly no options at that point. I'm not saying the graph would look dramatically different if equal options had existed, but we can't say one way or the other. Add in the biggest marketing push we've ever seen, geo changes, new tires and wheels only available in 650b, and even hold outs like me bought 650b. The most interesting thing about this data to me is how few want to buy 650b in 2019 compared to 26 in 2012. While vital might not be the best gage for the market as a whole, it's a good representation of what experienced riders are interested in. Clearly 650b is less desirable in 2019 than 26" was in 2012. Not just by a little bit either. The industry will take note of this data.
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    The three rim sizes are 559, 584, and 622 but unless you ride without tires you need to pick a reasonable tire size and apply it to each.

    With a 58mm tall tire, the three wheel sizes are 675, 700, and 738. Using these numbers:

    26 to a 27.5 = +3.7%
    27.5 to 29 = +5.4%
    26 to 29 = +9.3%

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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post

    Here is the complete graphic:
    Name:  VitalMTB.PNG
Views: 40
Size:  68.5 KB
    Actually, the graph mattithunder posted is more complete since it shows 2019 and the one you posted does not. Same chart, just the other one has an additional year of data.

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    Hes referring to the text under the graph that tells you what its actually a graph of...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Actually, the graph mattithunder posted is more complete since it shows 2019 and the one you posted does not. Same chart, just the other one has an additional year of data.
    Ah, good catch!

    However, my point was that the text was not included, which explains out what the graph actually is. This is important because the chart was assumed to be representing sales when it was not. The text explains this.
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    Looks like the survey reflects the views of Californians - being that they constituted by far the largest group of survey respondents... That explains the results for sure, and makes for not a very reliable reflection of the mountain bikers' preferences as a whole.

    Even so, the prominence of the 27.5 in the chart and it's rapid rise that coincided with the co-related drop in the preferences for 26ers still gives the sense that something made people view 27.5 more favorably than both 26er and 29er - yet the size isn't as fun/tossable/stiff as 26er nor does it roll over stuff as well as a 29er... I think the only explanation is that the industry decided to promote that size more than any other and that is the result in people's perceptions. Unless there is another explanation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    Looks like the survey reflects the views of Californians - being that they constituted by far the largest group of survey respondents... That explains the results for sure, and makes for not a very reliable reflection of the mountain bikers' preferences as a whole.

    Even so, the prominence of the 27.5 in the chart and it's rapid rise that coincided with the co-related drop in the preferences for 26ers still gives the sense that something made people view 27.5 more favorably than both 26er and 29er - yet the size isn't as fun/tossable/stiff as 26er nor does it roll over stuff as well as a 29er... I think the only explanation is that the industry decided to promote that size more than any other and that is the result in people's perceptions. Unless there is another explanation?
    The vast majority of people are followers not leaders. They’re told what to do and for the most part they do it. The people who are on forums are usually better informed. Our opinions are less subjective and more objective.They give well thought answers like you did.
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  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2 View Post
    I can see the advantages of a 29er, but a 650B just doesn’t have any real advantage over a 26 or 29.. It’s almost like the worst of both worlds. It just doesn’t do anything well enough to justify even tooling up a separate bike model.
    26" will have a place for sub 5ft people (kids too big for 24"), sub 5'8" people on a tight budget, and dirt jumpers. There's nowhere else that 650b isn't better. When 650b came out I did a lot of testing and timing. It was faster everywhere, only a tiny bit heavier, and I couldn't find any situations where I disliked the feel compared to 26 (I don't ride very steep BMX style dirt jumps). Basically, the wheels were big enough to feel smoother and more stable than 26 but not big enough to handle slower. When "new gen" 29ers got popular a couple years ago I got the most cutting edge XC and Enduro bikes (Spark RC & Capra 29) and did a bunch of testing. The XC bike was faster everywhere and I liked the feel. The Enduro was faster in most situations and I generally liked the feel but noticed downsides as well. Since then I've done all my racing on 29s but about 1/3 of my riding is still on 650b. For riders under 6'3" who don't race and prioritize nimbleness 650b will always have a place and you'll continue to see lots of 650b rear wheels in DH and enduro. My 2020 DH bike will be full 650b.

    Oh, and beach cruisers, the originators of 26", they'll keep the flame alive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    26" will have a place for sub 5ft people (kids too big for 24"), sub 5'8" people on a tight budget, and dirt jumpers. There's nowhere else that 650b isn't better. When 650b came out I did a lot of testing and timing. It was faster everywhere, only a tiny bit heavier, and I couldn't find any situations where I disliked the feel compared to 26 (I don't ride very steep BMX style dirt jumps). Basically, the wheels were big enough to feel smoother and more stable than 26 but not big enough to handle slower. When "new gen" 29ers got popular a couple years ago I got the most cutting edge XC and Enduro bikes (Spark RC & Capra 29) and did a bunch of testing. The XC bike was faster everywhere and I liked the feel. The Enduro was faster in most situations and I generally liked the feel but noticed downsides as well. Since then I've done all my racing on 29s but about 1/3 of my riding is still on 650b. For riders under 6'3" who don't race and prioritize nimbleness 650b will always have a place and you'll continue to see lots of 650b rear wheels in DH and enduro. My 2020 DH bike will be full 650b.

    Oh, and beach cruisers, the originators of 26", they'll keep the flame alive.
    The biggest issue with 650b is it's a compromise size. 650b is like what soccer mom crossovers are to SUV's and cars. They try to offer the best of both worlds but you're left with something that doesn't excel at anything. 650b was supposed to give us the rollover of 29 and the agility of 26 but it just rides like a bloated 26'er. Racing of all styles are being dominated by 29'ers, Rampage was just won on 26". So what is it that 650b does well again? I won't be surprised at all if in a few years we look back at 650b as an attempt to have our cake and eat it too. It's just a rim size. Just another standard the industry has played with. Nothing is immune from becoming obsolete. 650b has no niche to keep it going. Maybe it will live on at Walmart?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    650b try to offer the best of both worlds but you're left with something that doesn't excel at anything. 650b was supposed to give us the rollover of 29 and the agility of 26 but it just rides like a bloated 26'er.
    Well, that's where we disagree. I felt and the stop watch showed that 650b had better rollover and traction than 26". Like I said above, I was immediately faster and felt better in every situation compared to 26". I didn't feel any negatives compared to 26" and the weight gain was miniscule (I don't do extremely steep jumps or spins).
    With 29" I do feel some negative effects on handling and the weight gain is greater. Saying any more would be repeating my last post but the end result is there's things 650b does better than 29 so I think it will stick around (WC DH and Enduro races were won on it this year). The only things I think 26" does better than 650b are dirtjumps and fit very short riders. For what it's worth I stock the tires at my shop and will keep a decent selection of 26s for many years to come. We sell plenty since there's a deep inventory of used bikes in our town that work just fine for riders on a budget who don't race.

    P.S. I really think height affects how wheel sizes feel, I'm 6'2" and prefer a 465 reach.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    When 650b came out I did a lot of testing and timing.
    unless you used the same tires on both bikes and they both had similar geometry and components the test would be pretty pointless. Plus, it has been tested before (in what would be a significantly better controlled test than anything you did) and 27.5” looses.

    Regardless of all that, recent sales numbers (just a few years after 27.5” introduction) have shown 27.5” looses and that the majority of mtbrs have finally been able to see past the marketing hype as the performance of 27.5 didn’t hold up to shit the was being flung. Most of it was straight lies about the performance of 27.5” anyways and now is the backlash.

    https://youtu.be/kxfrykeSNCE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    Well, that's where we disagree. I felt and the stop watch showed that 650b had better rollover and traction than 26". Like I said above, I was immediately faster and felt better in every situation compared to 26". I didn't feel any negatives compared to 26" and the weight gain was miniscule (I don't do extremely steep jumps or spins).
    With 29" I do feel some negative effects on handling and the weight gain is greater. Saying any more would be repeating my last post but the end result is there's things 650b does better than 29 so I think it will stick around (WC DH and Enduro races were won on it this year). The only things I think 26" does better than 650b are dirtjumps and fit very short riders. For what it's worth I stock the tires at my shop and will keep a decent selection of 26s for many years to come. We sell plenty since there's a deep inventory of used bikes in our town that work just fine for riders on a budget who don't race.

    P.S. I really think height affects how wheel sizes feel, I'm 6'2" and prefer a 465 reach.
    So you tested 26 against 650b with geo constant? I don't believe height affects how 26" and 27" wheels handle. A 6'1" rider just won rampage on a 26'er. The difference between 26" and 27" is negligible in regards to rider height. There's no reason you can't have a 465 reach with 26" wheels. That would just help bring some mobility back that's been lost to such a long wheel base. 27" is just the new 26" with 27" proponents using the same arguments 26" proponents used in 2013. It's pretty comical really. The biggest difference between now and 2013 is 26" still has a niche to keep it around.

    You mentioned that some EWS and DH races were won on 650b this year. Were you watching the EWS and DH in 2013? 26" didn't just win races it won the first EWS title against all the new 650bs. Brycland got his first win ever on one of the last 26" bikes in competition. How'd that work out for 26" in the long run? If 26" didn't have a niche outside of racing it really would be dead. Don't get your hopes up for 650b just because it won a few races last year.

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    650 is NOT an in between 26/700.

    650 is 3% bigger than 26 (2148mm circumference 650 X 53)
    700 is 10% bigger than 26 (2288mm circumference 700 X 53)

    (2068mm circumference 26 X 2.1 )

    They made 650 so you have to buy a new bike and new tires , not because it's an "in between".
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    Will the 26er ever rise from the ashes?

    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    650 is NOT an in between 26/700.

    650 is 3% bigger than 26 (2148mm circumference 650 X 53)
    700 is 10% bigger than 26 (2288mm circumference 700 X 53)

    (2068mm circumference 26 X 2.1 )

    They made 650 so you have to buy a new bike and new tires , not because it's an "in between".
    You can’t use the numbers “650” and “700” the way you are using them for comparison. Those measurements are diameters to the outside of the tire treads, but they are based in different tire sizes (thus the B and C parts)

    Do the math using the actual bead-to-bead rim widths (or add on a consistent tire width for good measure) and you will see that 27.5/650b is about 40% of the way between 26er and 29er in both diameter and circumference.

    If 650b was going to be given a number between 26 and 29 (two numbers that were never measuring the same thing to start with) it should have been “27.2”.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    There's nowhere else that 650b isn't better. When 650b came out I did a lot of testing and timing. It was faster everywhere, only a tiny bit heavier, and I couldn't find any situations where I disliked the feel compared to 26 (I don't ride very steep BMX style dirt jumps). Basically, the wheels were big enough to feel smoother and more stable than 26 but not big enough to handle slower. When "new gen" 29ers got popular a couple years ago I got the most cutting edge XC and Enduro bikes (Spark RC & Capra 29) and did a bunch of testing. The XC bike was faster everywhere and I liked the feel. The Enduro was faster in most situations and I generally liked the feel but noticed downsides as well. Since then I've done all my racing on 29s but about 1/3 of my riding is still on 650b. For riders under 6'3" who don't race and prioritize nimbleness 650b will always have a place and you'll continue to see lots of 650b rear wheels in DH and enduro. My 2020 DH bike will be full 650b.
    .
    The use of the word "testing" here offends my scientific nature.

    The only way any of this is valid is if you have the exact same bike, same tires, compensated geometry for BB height, gearing compensated for diametre, and zero other changes..

  33. #233
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    Out of 14 bikes only 3 650b's. What will 2021 look like?

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-...ield-test.html

  34. #234
    Bicyclochondriac.
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    I find it interesting when 27.5 naysayers explain the move from 26 to 27.5 as the industry forcing it on people, yet the move from 27.5 to 29 and rider-driven.

    Companies offering fewer 26” models in the early 2010s was an industry plot, but offering fewer 27.5 is a response to rider preference.

    People dumping their 26ers for a larger wheel size was a sign of them being duped, dumping their 27.5s for a larger wheel size is somehow different, and a sign of them knowing better than the industry.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I find it interesting when 27.5 naysayers explain the move from 26 to 27.5 as the industry forcing it on people, yet the move from 27.5 to 29 and rider-driven.

    Companies offering fewer 26” models in the early 2010s was an industry plot, but offering fewer 27.5 is a response to rider preference.

    People dumping their 26ers for a larger wheel size was a sign of them being duped, dumping their 27.5s for a larger wheel size is somehow different, and a sign of them knowing better than the industry.
    The point is that 700 DOES make a roll over difference , but 650 ?
    I still call BS ......

    700 does roll over better but 650 only has disadvantages over both wheel sizes.
    And I don't care about the sales..... I work in the music industry
    I live the effect marketing over the consumer/indusrty every day !!

    I ordered a custom made frame around 2014 as nobody made interesting 26ers anymore with "modernish" geometry and it's Perfect.
    I could have asked them to invent a new wheel size even.

    I'm 185cm tall , my 700 MTB is sleeping in the basement.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

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