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  1. #1
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    26er is outdated why exactly?

    I frankly did not know I owned a vintage mountain bike (Ellsworth Truth circa 2004ish) until I joined this forum seeking advice. Now I am curious to understand in a simple way what exactly it is that makes the bike and format apparently woefully outdated. I will say Im a fan of older simple things that are good enough and satisfying to own. Often find id rather buy the absolute best of the not so new than the low end new thing. My newest car is an 89 Bmw 325i that is perfectly modern for my taste, affordable, good looking (to me). So Im not a tech evangelist who must have the newest. I do not do anything approximating racing (with the car or bike) so Im not chasing seconds or shaving grams. Im asking not a leading question but just to understand where we’re at...

  2. #2
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    The real answer to your question is geometry. Were a 26er to be made with progressive geometry, it wouldn't be outdated. Unfortunately, the market decided 26 was obsolete before progressive geometry existed. Therefore, all 26ers are obsolete. And because this was the most meaningful change in the history of mountain biking, you'd really be doing yourself a disservice to pay real money for any 26er these days--and this is coming from a guy who really likes 26" wheels.

  3. #3
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    The real answer to your question is quality replacement components. Unless one has a stockpile of quality parts one will find it increasingly difficult to keep a 26'er rolling.

    The statement that "all 26er's are obsolete" is an ignorant statement. I do agree that one is better off purchasing a 27.5 or 29er today for reasons provided above. To be clear, I'm not stating twodownzero to be ignorant.
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    R&D into new designs, better suited to the needs of the majority of bikers today is all going to 27.5 and 29 bikes.
    Geometry is the most obvious recipient of improvements and parts - drive trains, shocks and forks and such are all being designed for new bikes with different components. You could upgrade some components to an older 26er, but some, like forks and some tire options (such as Maxxis WT tires) might be much harder to replace.
    I'm in agreement with both of the above.

  5. #5
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    One reason the OP's bike may be considered outdated has nothing to do with the wheel size, but rather with the suspension design. There have been a lot of advancements and refinements in suspension design in the past 15+ years.

    FWIW, I retired my high-end 26" bike a few years ago due to lack of available quality replacement tires, wheels, and forks, and not because of geometry. By the geometry standard all of my 29ers are outdated too.

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    IF you just ride for pleasure and don't push your bike hard, nothing wrong with any bike really.

    But if you're pushing your limits on trails that allow you to do so older geometry common on most 26" bikes will limit your ability to progress after a point.

    I have a 7 year old pimped out 26" bike, would have retailed for $8k+ with all the parts on there now, but have more fun on a 4 year old Kona Process 153 that I biult up used with middle tier components... The older bike just isn't as stable and capable at speed as the newer bike.

    It all comes down to geometry, shifting, braking and suspension is a little better, but the frame geometry is where the real magic has been happening over the last 6-7 years
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  7. #7
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    Because I said so, now go to your room.



    (also, that other stuff)
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by r-mm View Post
    I frankly did not know I owned a vintage mountain bike (Ellsworth Truth circa 2004ish) until I joined this forum seeking advice. Now I am curious to understand in a simple way what exactly it is that makes the bike and format apparently woefully outdated. I will say Im a fan of older simple things that are good enough and satisfying to own. Often find id rather buy the absolute best of the not so new than the low end new thing. My newest car is an 89 Bmw 325i that is perfectly modern for my taste, affordable, good looking (to me). So Im not a tech evangelist who must have the newest. I do not do anything approximating racing (with the car or bike) so Im not chasing seconds or shaving grams. Im asking not a leading question but just to understand where we’re at...
    In truth, if your bike suits your needs, stick with it.

    But I challenge you rent a new bike with either 27.5 or 29er wheels so that you can experience how much mountain bikes have advanced. It's pretty amazing.
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  9. #9
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    Ive seen people spend $8000 on a TV to sit in front of their whole life and get type 2 diabetes. But I need to justify my $4000 new bike, and quantify every way its better than my last bike...

    We have the weirdest priorities. If you dont want to be buying new bikes, dont do it. I like new bikes, even if you dont feel the differences are significant.

  10. #10
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    26er mountain bike = flip phone


    Sure it works, but it's just not as cool as an iPhone (29er)

  11. #11
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    It is a broad question, not sure what op means?

    Industry is brutally competitive. As example, Some companies took risks around things like wheel size. Customers liked it. Many copied, others late to party.

    Carbon became feasible at lower cost in China--customers want it. Put a hurt on some boutique Aluminum frame makers like Ellsworth, as well as some specializing in titanium.

    Other things are just incremental changes happening in any competitive industry. Hydroforming, tapered headsets, axle width, tire width, bar width.

    Compared to 2004, ridiculously long travel trail bikes,e.g., 150 mm+, climb well.

    The industry is still brutally competitive, but smaller boutiques like Ellsworth, Turner no longer offer same range of frame options, colors or builds--it's too costly for the customer base that's left.

    Fewer frame only options across the industry.



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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by r-mm View Post
    I frankly did not know I owned a vintage mountain bike (Ellsworth Truth circa 2004ish) until I joined this forum seeking advice. Now I am curious to understand in a simple way what exactly it is that makes the bike and format apparently woefully outdated. I will say Im a fan of older simple things that are good enough and satisfying to own. Often find id rather buy the absolute best of the not so new than the low end new thing. My newest car is an 89 Bmw 325i that is perfectly modern for my taste, affordable, good looking (to me). So Im not a tech evangelist who must have the newest. I do not do anything approximating racing (with the car or bike) so Im not chasing seconds or shaving grams. Im asking not a leading question but just to understand where we’re at...
    What size wheels does your 1989 BMW run?

    What size wheels does a 2019 BMW run?

    Would you be surprised if they were different?

    You kinda answered your own question, as things age, technology advances, specs change, it's the way it is.

    You can still find parts for your old BMW and your old bike, but don't expect new tech for old applications.
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  13. #13
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    r-mm, there's still plenty of 26er's being happily ridden around and doing basically anything a 27.5 wheel can do. Your Truth is an XC bike, with XC geometry, and if you like riding it, do not let industry PR-generated news tell you that you can't. And don't try to push your bikes limits......it's not a big sucker or DH ripper. But the Truth is still a 4-bar linkage driven suspension , and it has always pedaled and handled well. Still does.

  14. #14
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    Given equal geo on both bikes...the 27.5 isn't a huge difference compared to a 26. I remember Specialized did not want to move to 27.5. I recall seeing somewhere that in Spesh's own testing is that they didn't find much or any differences between 26 and 27.5 wheels. They moved to 27.5 because if they didn't...they'd be losing out on a lot of sales. Look at Santa Cruz when they first came out with the Bonson...they could not keep that bike in stock. That's when Santa Cruz really blew up.

    Same with going from 142 to 148. I have yet to see a third party test on the claims of the 148 being any better than the 142. It's just the bike industry's way of moving forward. Its either you move with the rest of the industry...or get left behind. I think Knolly is the only company to skip 148 and move to 157 instead.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgltrak View Post
    One reason the OP's bike may be considered outdated has nothing to do with the wheel size, but rather with the suspension design. There have been a lot of advancements and refinements in suspension design in the past 15+ years.
    I would argue there has been almost no real development, everyone has jumped to the Horst Link now the patent has expired! The only tweaks are probably to cater a to a single ring and the proliferation of air shocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgltrak View Post
    FWIW, I retired my high-end 26" bike a few years ago due to lack of available quality replacement tires, wheels, and forks, and not because of geometry.
    You can still buy decent 26" rims. Stan Flows, Maxxis make plenty of tires including their top ones. How often do you wear out a fork? I have Blacks, Nixon and Travis forks that are still being ridden. They're not worn out.

    I think the single biggest difference between my current bike and one of my favourite bikes is weight. I have an 06 Enduro Expert with 150mm of travel, I've now got it down to a modern weight as they were a little overbuilt to begin with. Seat angle isn't great but it's great fun downhill.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    Given equal geo on both bikes...the 27.5 isn't a huge difference compared to a 26. I remember Specialized did not want to move to 27.5. I recall seeing somewhere that in Spesh's own testing is that they didn't find much or any differences between 26 and 27.5 wheels.
    And that's what I find so frustrating. I've ridden my bike (14 E26) against the 15 version 650B back to back in a bike park. There was no difference. I think the industry could have existed quite happily with 26 and 29. But now they're making DH bikes with big wheels I can't see the point of keeping 650B now.
    Que 20mm and 150mm axle rant.

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    Unfortunately the 27.5 is the new 26er.

    According to strava almost all of my fastest times were on my cannondale rush sl6, which was a 26er. I really like how nimble the smaller tires feel. I sold the rush because the internet told me I needed a 29er and I hated that thing.

    I have a 27.5 now and I like it a lot.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    And that's what I find so frustrating. I've ridden my bike (14 E26) against the 15 version 650B back to back in a bike park. There was no difference. I think the industry could have existed quite happily with 26 and 29. But now they're making DH bikes with big wheels I can't see the point of keeping 650B now.
    Que 20mm and 150mm axle rant.
    I don't think Gwin has been the same since the switch to the 29r.

  19. #19
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    My next mtb will be a brand spanking new 26er. Hopefully, something like this...

    26er is outdated why exactly?-ee270a8d-479e-4dc6-9a83-fb5f4df8ab7e.jpg

    Attachment 1265557



    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    I think the industry could have existed quite happily with 26 and 29. But now they're making DH bikes with big wheels I can't see the point of keeping 650B now.
    Yup, that is why it is actually the non-plus 27.5” that is outdated. 27.5” is dying at a very rapid pace right now and a big part of that is because in every discipline of mtb there is another wheel size that will perform better than the 27.5”.
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  20. #20
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    My personal opinion on "obsolete" geometry and 26" is... marketing aside, they're not really that obsolete. I still have a 2003 Gary Fisher Sugar 3+ that I purchased new. In 2006, it was as good an off road bike as there was. By today's geometry standards, it certainly isn't a trail bike, but I still consider it a capable XC bike by today's standards. As for finding parts for it... not an issue. They can still be found new from all the major brands. It's been through some refreshing, and has a 2017 RockShox fork, a 2016 Fox shock, 2018 XT brakes, 2019 Kenda tires, 2018 RaceFace bar and stem, 2017 RaceFace rings (yeah, it's still a 3x!), new BB, new headset, etc., etc. Heck, Trek (which purchased Gary Fisher many years ago) still carries pivot/frame bushings for it, which by the way, are still used on current Trek models today! How obsolete is that

    Don't get me wrong... I love and daily ride a 2018 greatest latest trail bike. But there's no reason the '03 can't be ridden just as well, and I sometimes do. There isn't a trail I don't think I can't take the '03 on that I ride my '18 on... I just need make sure I select the right line, and plan ahead more.

    My point is, I don't completely agree that older 26" bikes are completely obsolete functionally. But yeah, newer stuff is better suited.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sickmak90 View Post
    Unfortunately the 27.5 is the new 26er.

    According to strava almost all of my fastest times were on my cannondale rush sl6, which was a 26er. I really like how nimble the smaller tires feel. I sold the rush because the internet told me I needed a 29er and I hated that thing.

    I have a 27.5 now and I like it a lot.
    Yeah, I don't think there is much of a difference between a 27.5 and a 26. Heck on many trails, there is no difference between a 26 and a 29.

    I have posted this several times before, but my experiences are similar:

    The effect of mountain bike wheel size on cross country performance.pdf
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  22. #22
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    I have a 2011 Jamis XCT4 (carbon, 26"). After robbing parts to get my son's bike going, I had the frame, wheels, & bar left. I borrowed a 29'er & love how they handle. I can't justify the cost of a new bike so I put $600 into the Jamis & have a great bike again. The head angle is 67.5, so is a balanced climber & descender. The parts to maintain a 26" are still out there. I'm not buying a new bike until all these industry changes settle down & I have the $.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 26er is outdated why exactly?-20150121_122759.jpg  


  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    I would argue there has been almost no real development, everyone has jumped to the Horst Link now the patent has expired! The only tweaks are probably to cater a to a single ring and the proliferation of air shocks.



    You can still buy decent 26" rims. Stan Flows, Maxxis make plenty of tires including their top ones. How often do you wear out a fork? I have Blacks, Nixon and Travis forks that are still being ridden. They're not worn out.

    I think the single biggest difference between my current bike and one of my favourite bikes is weight. I have an 06 Enduro Expert with 150mm of travel, I've now got it down to a modern weight as they were a little overbuilt to begin with. Seat angle isn't great but it's great fun downhill.
    All true. I would add that every mini link design like VPP, DW... are just versions of 4 bar aka horst link. There's really been no changes in suspension design other than the fact that companies don't have to dance around patents anymore. The OP has a horst link design that's just different enough to not infringe on patents. ICT is still very much relevant today to anyone that understands suspension designs.

    As far as tire and rim availability goes, the current WC DH leader is running rims and tires still offered in 26". While we can't get everything, most of the best stuff is still available in 26". My main bike is 650b, but I'll never sell my 26" trail bike. Ironically I can have any tire/rim combo I want on my 650b but I run minions and ex 471 rims which are available in 26" lol.

  24. #24
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    I've got several 26ers and 2 of them are Titus bikes - so little chance to find replacement parts for the frame... but I ride them. I'm out of shape and trying to get back in shape, not racing, and at my age (mid-40's) I'm not looking to push my skills beyond where I'm at now. I'm able to ride through any rideable rock gardens, but I need to build more strength and drop maybe 40 pounds. Does it matter to me that my bikes are 26ers not 27.5ers, or 29ers - not really. If any of the bikes breaks, I'll just use another one. Parts are getting harder to get, but then again, I just got a 2005 SC Juliana frame for my wife, that must have been ridden 3 times - not a mark on the paint. So I think, as long as there are nearly new old bikes out there, there will be parts. After that, I hope someone gets an idea to start making XT level 26er parts, and make money that everyone else seems to not like.

    There is literally no such thing as an outdated bike, any bike can be ridden as long as was cared for and is in running condition. When folks say that the bike is holding them back... well are they sure it's the bike that is holding them back? I guess it all depends on what they plan to accomplish. I can see a racer trying to get an edge with new technology... for the rest it's just the question of choice and how they want to spend their money.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    Given equal geo on both bikes...the 27.5 isn't a huge difference compared to a 26. I remember Specialized did not want to move to 27.5. I recall seeing somewhere that in Spesh's own testing is that they didn't find much or any differences between 26 and 27.5 wheels. They moved to 27.5 because if they didn't...they'd be losing out on a lot of sales. Look at Santa Cruz when they first came out with the Bonson...they could not keep that bike in stock. That's when Santa Cruz really blew up.

    Same with going from 142 to 148. I have yet to see a third party test on the claims of the 148 being any better than the 142. It's just the bike industry's way of moving forward. Its either you move with the rest of the industry...or get left behind. I think Knolly is the only company to skip 148 and move to 157 instead.
    Nail smacked right on its head. I remember reading that article where specialized said their testing showed no benefit with 650b. I remember something along the lines of 650b being "unnecessary." Spec gets bashed a lot, but the facts are they have the best R&D in the industry, and they love playing BS games to get us to buy their branded stuff. It really said something to me when special-ed didn't hype 650b and only capitulated when they saw the writing on the wall. Bike radar conducted the most objective wheel size test we've seen and they found 650b to be the slowest of the three sizes lol. Of course I ride 650b now lol. My 650b bike rips because of the geo. Wheel size is just another number and not even a super important one at that. The industry will never stop changing the numbers to keep us spending money. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they make a size that's actually 27.5, instead of the current 26.99" 650b size. They could use the same argument they used against 26" by saying 650b was an available off the shelf size that came to us because of convenience. Enter the first dedicated MTB wheel size! Honestly, it's kind of surprising the industry hasn't prototyped a wheel size that isn't an off the shelf preexisting size.

  26. #26
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    "Progressive" geometry pretty much means many companies are now making trail bikes that more closely mimic how DH bikes were laid out a decade and change ago. Mostly what's changed is that trail/XC riders who in the past were mainly concerned with counting grams and ultimate (purported) efficiency have jumped on the 'lets have more fun' bandwagon, along with companies and their marketing departments.

    I have bikes from the mid-2000's with very close to 'modern geometry' that rode fine than and ride fine now. Much like 'plus' tires, a lot of what's going on now is the same shit that has been going for ages on a smaller scale, there's just a lot more of it being sold now because it's now being marketed on a much larger scale and has trickled into more 'mainstream' styles of riding.

    For example, my old 2006 DHR has almost the exact same head angle, wheelbase and BB height, etc as a new Kona Process 153. My 2008 Sinister Shenanigan also sported very similar numbers (a bit shorter in the TT and CS).

    Some of this stuff, I like for general trail riding, some of it I don't. There really is no hard standard for what's 'right', only personal preferences. If you like your bike, there is no need get anything else beyond playing the internet version of keeping up with the Jones. But of course, you may find after trying some more 'progressive' bikes that those sort of changes DO actually work for you, so it's definitely worth trying to throw a leg over some to see what you personally find.
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  27. #27
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    ^^Lol...the biggest proponent of the 650b size was Giant. Man...multiple videos had their rep saying that 650b was the future...that they were eventually going to phase out all their 29er bikes (which they almost did). They has this whole spiel on how it was the superior wheel size. They tried their hardest to push that wheel size.

    2019...they are now testing 29er DH bikes.

    Bike manufacturers in the end are the ones that really dictate what we buy. If they don't make it...we can't buy it...regardless of how deep your wallet is.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    ^^Lol...the biggest proponent of the 650b size was Giant. Man...multiple videos had their rep saying that 650b was the future...that they were eventually going to phase out all their 29er bikes (which they almost did). They has this whole spiel on how it was the superior wheel size. They tried their hardest to push that wheel size.

    2019...they are now testing 29er DH bikes.

    Bike manufacturers in the end are the ones that really dictate what we buy. If they don't make it...we can't buy it...regardless of how deep your wallet is.
    Sure you can, that's where custom builders come in.
    Compared to the astronomical pricing of a lot of high end modern off-the-shelf bikes, custom bikes are a whole lot more competitive price-wise than they were in the past, and you can get exactly what you want.

    The really tricky part is gaining enough experience to actually KNOW what you want and being able to communicate that effectively.
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  29. #29
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    Haha...I don't think I know enough to actually spec my own frame. I just get on and if the bike doesn't try and kill me...I'm ok with it. I don't really need to be on the bleeding edge of bike design. The geo's of my current bikes are from 2013 and 2016.

    I think people just need to recognize marketing and hype when they see it...and its ok to buy into it...just don't try and convince me it'll make me ride like a pro...or even like a local pro.

  30. #30
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    https://forums.mtbr.com/27-5/list-27...rs-376656.html

    Here's the 2008 thread showing how riders adopted 650b. It wasn't stuffed down our throats or a marketing ploy. We did the footwork and asked for it, en masse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Here's the 2008 thread showing how riders adopted 650b. It wasn't stuffed down our throats or a marketing ploy. We did the footwork and asked for it, en masse.
    Exactly. I was a fairly early adopter. Squeezing a Pacenti rim and NeoMoto tire into my Fox fork. This is a fact often neglected in these conversations. Everyone likes to quote and blame Giant marketing for it. The realty is, if you had a 26er that could squeeze a 650b into it, it was a subtle but noticeable improvement, with basically no downside.

  32. #32
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    26 is outdated because they want you to buy other stuff.

    I built a custom made bike 4/5 years ago with 26 wheels since no major companies were doing some : perfect !!!



    Anyway, if you don't have the budget for custom made frame , 650 is almost the same thing.
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  33. #33
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    I went from a high end Pivot 5.7c to a high end Yeti SB5. I had buyer's remorse until I got about 200 miles on it and started getting PR's on climbs out here in Utah. I'm now on a modified Giant Trance Pro 1 29 and keep beating my old 27.5 climb PR's and can now clean entire descents on some Moab rides that I wasn't able to before.

    26ers (or 27.5's for that matter) are only outdated if they're outdated for you. For me, they are. For others, probably not.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    https://forums.mtbr.com/27-5/list-27...rs-376656.html

    Here's the 2008 thread showing how riders adopted 650b. It wasn't stuffed down our throats or a marketing ploy. We did the footwork and asked for it, en masse.
    That proves nothing more then people were interested. Maybe because of a marketing ploy...
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    That proves nothing more then people were interested. Maybe because of a marketing ploy...
    This only shows that you weren't paying attention while it was happening. There was no marketing for it, when I got my Pacenti Rim and NeoMoto tire, unless you count MTBR threads as marketing. This was well before you could even buy a 27.5 bike.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    This only shows that you weren't paying attention while it was happening. There was no marketing for it, when I got my Pacenti Rim and NeoMoto tire, unless you count MTBR threads as marketing. This was well before you could even buy a 27.5 bike.
    No marketing! More like the most marketing the industry has ever put forth. How could you forget the best of both worlds pitch?

    I'm not arguing there wasn't a grass roots movement, or that the majority or riders were happy about 650b replacing 26", but to say it was all rider driven with no marketing is just wrong. Really wrong. You must have lived in an alternative universe from 2013 to 2016 to not remember just how crazy the marketing push for 27.5 was.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    No marketing! More like the most marketing the industry has ever put forth. How could you forget the best of both worlds pitch?

    I'm not arguing there wasn't a grass roots movement, or that the majority or riders were happy about 650b replacing 26", but to say it was all rider driven with no marketing is just wrong. Really wrong. You must have lived in an alternative universe from 2013 to 2016 to not remember just how crazy the marketing push for 27.5 was.
    Yeah, what he said.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    The realty is, if you had a 26er that could squeeze a 650b into it, it was a subtle but noticeable improvement, with basically no downside.
    What was the improvement? Those who were squeezing 650B rims and tires into 26 inch bikes could get away with it usually by having to have less tire. A decent 26 tire is possibly almost as tall as some early 650B combinations.

  39. #39
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    I remember 2.25s were the widest you can squeeze into the back some 26in frames. I think that was the max width for a Mach 5.7 of you wanted to put a 27.5 tire back there. I know that the 26in Marzocchi fork on my Mach 5 will not take a 27.5 of any size. A 26x2.5 should be pretty close to a 27.5x2.25 in height.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by r-mm View Post
    I frankly did not know I owned a vintage mountain bike (Ellsworth Truth circa 2004ish) until I joined this forum seeking advice. Now I am curious to understand in a simple way what exactly it is that makes the bike and format apparently woefully outdated. I will say Im a fan of older simple things that are good enough and satisfying to own. Often find id rather buy the absolute best of the not so new than the low end new thing. My newest car is an 89 Bmw 325i that is perfectly modern for my taste, affordable, good looking (to me). So Im not a tech evangelist who must have the newest. I do not do anything approximating racing (with the car or bike) so Im not chasing seconds or shaving grams. Im asking not a leading question but just to understand where we’re at...
    In your world of enjoying retro-tech or classics, there may be nothing about these newer designs , wheel sizes or frame angles that impresses you.
    It's going to be Your answer to the question if you decide you are interested. That's a simple sounding question, just not one others can answer for you. If you love the old stuff and have no burning desire to spend time shopping, test riding and risk falling for the feel, fit or handling of newer bikes and the associated budget you'll be considering, it's really no loss.
    Consider you are happy with what you know and if not "too" curious about what you don't know, skip the investigation / demo rides, shopping or rental day and be "safe" from risking a decision and expense.

    I appreciate the older bikes also and to me, "outdated" often just means marketing, tech, Ads and industry that keeps the ball moving giving us more options. I do think the newer frame dimensions and changes are more comfortable and put the rider in a better position more often than not. Yet the fit for a compact or shorter rider may be preferred with the older bikes of 26 gen. ie frame size reach/stack, cockpit, wheels of 26" etc…..

    My vintage bike has a dad
    I went a bit over 10 years before getting bike #2 in early 2000's and another 16 years before #3.
    IMO, you have to put yourself out there to feel the bikes respond, handle, climb and perform in the ways you ride on the type of stuff you like, subject to proper fitting first. What others say feel or experience doesn't necessarily compute for just anybody. Then of course, if you like it, is it worth the money ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    What size wheels does your 1989 BMW run?
    What size wheels does a 2019 BMW run?
    Would you be surprised if they were different?
    You kinda answered your own question, as things age, technology advances, specs change, it's the way it is.

    You can still find parts for your old BMW and your old bike, but don't expect new tech for old applications.
    Nice analogy Ben.
    The razor thin tires/sidewalls and offset wheels give the newer cars a tight, stanced look, improved track numbers like lateral grip offering improvements you can see, feel and document with stats.
    It's that razor sharp handling and precision many want and some need but it comes with some expense.

    I can have 20's on my wife's car but the package we got offered 18's and as much as I like the aesthetics of the whole wheel-tire / wheel well fit and look, I realized the tire height/sidewall is what gives the car ride, quiet and comfort characteristics we prefer for a daily driver that never sees the track. 20's means the different aspect ratio with sporty tires and gives the 'looks' hands down but I'm no longer willing to compromise some things like ride, noise, comfort.

    Similar on the mountain bike subject in my case;
    Ride and comfort on the daily driver, bike I ride most often doesn't need to impress track times and performance criteria for this 58 year old grandpa. I went to plus hard tail and do find the fit of the newer geo and upright feel of the trail bike to be more to my comfort and liking. "Updating" came easy to me because I did value the simplicity of the 1x drive, v-brakes to hydr disc, comfort tires, + traction and a better more comfortable fit.
    I got all this for less than 2 grand and it's paid off as a positive in every way.
    (My 01' Kona is a bit on the small side of "medium" but was fitted with seat rails, stem to help).


    It is my opinion that if you want to find reason to 'update' and consider a change or spending some $ .00 , it won't be difficult to find and few good candidates out there. However, if you don't gotta want for it or an excuse to buy something, 'outdated' is a word that means nothing from the perspective of a content rider on his/her happy wheels.
    bachman must spread some Reputation around before giving it to himself again. :madman:


  41. #41
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    This begs the question, why haven't road bikes come up with a "better" wheel size?
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    No marketing! More like the most marketing the industry has ever put forth. How could you forget the best of both worlds pitch?

    I'm not arguing there wasn't a grass roots movement, or that the majority or riders were happy about 650b replacing 26", but to say it was all rider driven with no marketing is just wrong. Really wrong. You must have lived in an alternative universe from 2013 to 2016 to not remember just how crazy the marketing push for 27.5 was.
    2013 was 5 years after 2008. So like usual, the industry was extremely slow to change. Yeah, they marketed it when they finally got done dragging ass.

    After 5 years of rider demand, you're going to blame the industry for adopting?

    The only part about the marketing that didn't hold up was the claims that it would replace 29ers.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    but to say it was all rider driven with no marketing is just wrong. Really wrong. You must have lived in an alternative universe from 2013 to 2016 to not remember just how crazy the marketing push for 27.5 was.
    To recap:

    One Pivot puts up a MTBR thread from 2008, with links to other blogs about 650B conversions. All of them discussing current frames and forks that will retrofit a 650b rim and tire.

    Vesp comes in and says it's alll marketing ploy.

    I say marketing didn't exist for it at the time. No one made a 27.5 bike. You had one real rim and tire combo.

    You come in talking about 2013.......


    As I remember it - when I got into it, you had Pacenti making a rim, and he had a 2.3 Neo Moto tire produced. That was basically it for mtb specific. Then within a couple of years, a few other bigger rim and tire makers joined in... because of demand, people asking for it. Again, no one was making 27.5 frames that I'm aware of, unless it was custom. No one was advertising converting 26" frames and forks, at least that I ever saw. It voided your warranty.

    Within a couple more years, Bike companies had almost no choice but to step up to meet the growing demand for frames and forks that would fit 650B mtb wheels and tires. Many of their existing frames were already being used as such, they just needed some tweaks to be better. Since the wheels and tires were now available from mass producers, bike and fork manufacturers came on board. Many big companies jumped in full go, and quickly everyone left had to follow. No one wanted to miss out on the next big trend since 29ers.

    Giant puts out some marketing for their new line up of 27.5 bikes, and everyone loses their collective minds over the "data". Still do obviously. Many wrongly attribute this to the beginning of 27.5, when IMO it clearly wasn't.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    2013 was 5 years after 2008. So like usual, the industry was extremely slow to change. Yeah, they marketed it when they finally got done dragging ass.

    After 5 years of rider demand, you're going to blame the industry for adopting?

    The only part about the marketing that didn't hold up was the claims that it would replace 29ers.
    I'm not blaming the industry for offering 650b, I'm blaming them for never giving us 3 wheel sizes to choose from all with equal geo. You and I know that by 2015 we had no choice but to buy 650b if we wanted newer geo, tires, rims, forks and just support in general. In what world is that not shoving 650b down our throats? Yes no one has to buy it, but let's be real about this, serious riders wanted the geo, tire options.... This is why I'm riding 650b. I don't want it, I had no choice other than buy it or get left behind on the things that mean a lot more than 1" of wheel size.

    Let me give you one example of how I tried to stick with 26. I was excited about the kona process 167 which had pretty radical geo for its day. I went into multiple kona dealers in AZ, UT, and CO and non had one to try. All said they weren't going to be stocking 26'ers. Even the very few options we had to stick with 26" were nearly impossible to find. Maybe you had a difference experience? Maybe your LBS had 26'ers lined up for test rides right next to 650b's all with the same geo so you could really see what 1" in the wheels does? You know I'm being sarcastic because no one got that opportunity.

    You can recount history from the vantage of riders that wanted 650b, or you can recount history from the vantage of riders that wanted new geo with 26" wheels. arguments can be made from either side, but there is no argument against the fact that we never had even equal opportunity to test ride 26 and 650b side by side with same geo. New stuff was 650b, buy it or don't. That was the only choice we were given.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    What size wheels does your 1989 BMW run?

    What size wheels does a 2019 BMW run?

    Would you be surprised if they were different?

    You kinda answered your own question, as things age, technology advances, specs change, it's the way it is.

    You can still find parts for your old BMW and your old bike, but don't expect new tech for old applications.
    That is a very good analogy for the evolution of MTB technology.

    Not to derail this thread....but from a reliability standpoint, this analogy does not apply. Compared to the older cars, the newer stuff from BMW has just awful reliability. This is based on my personal experience owning nine BMW's, as a long time BMWCCA member, and as a club driving instructor for 15 years.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    New stuff was 650b, buy it or don't. That was the only choice we were given.
    I get that. I loved my B6er, but didn't buy in, when they released 27.5 bikes. I liked the snappier back end of a 26 wheel, but with the little increased roll over up front of a 27.5. I rode it for a long time after.

    I'm sure 26er sales were getting pretty stale compared to 29ers at the time. When the next new thing came along, it had too much overlap to justify keeping 26ers too. No one wanted to keep 26ers and not invest in 27.5, especially those that missed out on the early boom of 29ers. 29er had already cut way into 26er sales, and the new 27.5 was going to cut into it even more. Makes financial sense to me, but it is unfortunate for those that loved 26" wheels.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    What size wheels does your 1989 BMW run?

    What size wheels does a 2019 BMW run?

    Would you be surprised if they were different?
    Because I was bored...
    1989 325 195/65/14 609mm diameter
    2019 325 255/50/17 686mm diameter. So the actual wheel is only a little bigger, wider certainly. But I'd like to know weight difference between the two.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    This begs the question, why haven't road bikes come up with a "better" wheel size?
    I'm thinking 'cause weight is everything for a road bike.
    You didn't quit riding because you're old, you're old because you quit riding.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredcook View Post
    I'm thinking 'cause weight is everything for a road bike.
    Yeah, but why not a little smaller?

    Personally, I think the MTB community has always been receptive to trying new things. Even though I still think the 27.5 offers little advantage over 26" tires (and even less over 29" tires), I think the combined advancements have made better bikes. Say what you want, but boost spacing and wider rims and tires with slack/steep geometry has lead to the creation of bikes that are faster and more comfortable than ever before.

    It in no way makes 26" obsolete. They can still be ridden with great enjoyment. I recently spent time on my old steel stumpjumper with a Z2 fork and had a blast.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    I remember 2.25s were the widest you can squeeze into the back some 26in frames. I think that was the max width for a Mach 5.7 of you wanted to put a 27.5 tire back there. I know that the 26in Marzocchi fork on my Mach 5 will not take a 27.5 of any size. A 26x2.5 should be pretty close to a 27.5x2.25 in height.
    I tried putting a 27.5 rim with a 2.1 on the back of my 5.7. It was a waste of time. It barely fit and you lost the advantage of air volume in a bigger 26" tire. A true 2.25 would have been a REALLY tight fit.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredcook View Post
    I'm thinking 'cause weight is everything for a road bike.


    For most situations aero is more important than weight, tt bikes are quite a bit heavier than normal road bikes but also a fair amount faster.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    For most situations aero is more important than weight, tt bikes are quite a bit heavier than normal road bikes but also a fair amount faster.

    In the old days, your time trial bike was your regular bike with a smaller front wheel. Aero stuff did not really go big till Lemond in 1989...
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    This begs the question, why haven't road bikes come up with a "better" wheel size?
    Give it a little time.... disk brakes just got there 20 years after MTB.

    Had a little chuckle when I saw the time added to change wheels on the TDF with Thru-Axle frames
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    In the old days, your time trial bike was your regular bike with a smaller front wheel. Aero stuff did not really go big till Lemond in 1989...


    In the old days they were slower. Just like with mountain bikes things were learned and advancements were made.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    I would argue there has been almost no real development, everyone has jumped to the Horst Link now the patent has expired! The only tweaks are probably to cater a to a single ring and the proliferation of air shocks.



    You can still buy decent 26" rims. Stan Flows, Maxxis make plenty of tires including their top ones. How often do you wear out a fork? I have Blacks, Nixon and Travis forks that are still being ridden. They're not worn out.

    I think the single biggest difference between my current bike and one of my favourite bikes is weight. I have an 06 Enduro Expert with 150mm of travel, I've now got it down to a modern weight as they were a little overbuilt to begin with. Seat angle isn't great but it's great fun downhill.
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    https://forums.mtbr.com/27-5/list-27...rs-376656.html

    Here's the 2008 thread showing how riders adopted 650b. It wasn't stuffed down our throats or a marketing ploy. We did the footwork and asked for it, en masse.
    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    Exactly. I was a fairly early adopter. Squeezing a Pacenti rim and NeoMoto tire into my Fox fork. This is a fact often neglected in these conversations. Everyone likes to quote and blame Giant marketing for it. The realty is, if you had a 26er that could squeeze a 650b into it, it was a subtle but noticeable improvement, with basically no downside.
    Not only that but everyone seems to forget Mountain Biking History as well. The grandfathers never wanted 26 inch wheel and knew a 650B would have been a better choice. It all came down to cost. Importing a child's 26 inch tire was cheaper than an adult 650B tire.
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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Who is this everyone?
    GC, Canyon, Ghost, Lapierre, Knolly, YT, Nukeproof, Lapierre, Scott, Boardman, Whyte to name just a few. The expiration of the patent helped as did the development of a single chainring system.
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    I'd heard/read a rumor that the the Russians and Swedes bought all the 650b rims when Ritchey wanted to make a go at making some frames with that wheelsize.


    I also read a rumor that there was some consensus around the external diameter of the bicycle wheel and that the 650a-c rims were intended to replace a thinner racier wheel and tire combo for a more robust and wider touring wheel and tire combo. Perhaps since Ritchey was a road biker too he was familiar with the 650a-c rims, which maybe was a French standard?

    Then there was the more downhill oriented klunker group using SS mailboy Schwinns and the like riding 26x2.0s or so. I think the 26x2.0 meets that same aforementioned outer dia measure. Not sure if the 26 was intended as a tall kid size or not, but I know you could get a kid's bike with a 24" wheel in the '50's.

    In any case, history was made on 26 wheels.

    All the rumors could be BS for all I know. Ride what you like/brung/got.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    GC, Canyon, Ghost, Lapierre, Knolly, YT, Nukeproof, Lapierre, Scott, Boardman, Whyte to name just a few. The expiration of the patent helped as did the development of a single chainring system.
    LOL neg rep all you want a bunch of smaller brands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    I'd heard/read a rumor that the the Russians and Swedes bought all the 650b rims when Ritchey wanted to make a go at making some frames with that wheelsize.


    I also read a rumor that there was some consensus around the external diameter of the bicycle wheel and that the 650a-c rims were intended to replace a thinner racier wheel and tire combo for a more robust and wider touring wheel and tire combo. Perhaps since Ritchey was a road biker too he was familiar with the 650a-c rims, which maybe was a French standard?

    Then there was the more downhill oriented klunker group using SS mailboy Schwinns and the like riding 26x2.0s or so. I think the 26x2.0 meets that same aforementioned outer dia measure. Not sure if the 26 was intended as a tall kid size or not, but I know you could get a kid's bike with a 24" wheel in the '50's.

    In any case, history was made on 26 wheels.

    All the rumors could be BS for all I know. Ride what you like/brung/got.
    In one of the articles I read, it specifically mentioned when looking to import, US Customs considered the 26 a child's bike tire size, so it was cheaper.
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    LOL neg rep all you want a bunch of smaller brands.
    Just returning the favor and yes you are an ass.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    In one of the articles I read, it specifically mentioned when looking to import, US Customs considered the 26 a child's bike tire size, so it was cheaper.
    That's interesting. Seems odd that beach cruiser tires would be classified as kids? If that's the case I can see why one would opt for cheaper "kids" tires considering there's only 25mm difference and the wider beach cruiser tires available at the time would be the same or larger than available 650b tires. Nice little loop hole!

    The general sentiment in our culture back then was bikes are kid's toys. The only bikes anyone really considered "adult" back then would have been road so I can see 26" being classified as kids. Even today your average American will only own a kids bike and stop riding when they out grow it. Never grow up!

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    Love my fatty in 26 x 4.8 for the winter. At 6'4" the 29ers fit me better. Better rollover. less endos. I'm sitting between the wheels instead of over them. In the end, ride what makes you happy. Cheers.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Just returning the favor and yes you are an ass.
    Sorry still hurt that so many people don't find DI2 hard to install and set up while you did?
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  66. #66
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    I am not tall enough to like a 29 and riding my 26 makes me happy. Outdated or not. Tried a 29. Was good on trails that were mostly straigt but a lot less nimble and agile than my shorter 26.
    Everybody ride what fit them and as long as I can I keep my 26.
    Next from marketing will be e-bikes full suspension so even not competent riders can get hurt when getting to mountains they should not be on due to their skills (or lack of).

    it is harder to get fit than to stay fit

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    the bigger wheels are safer over wheel catchers, as is the modern geometry for technical trails like BC coastal riding, or black diamonds anywhere.

    but not everyone has to deal with technical trails, so a more old school XC bike even with 26er wheels is a great whip for that imho. Just maybe stock up on tires now.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCsaltchucker View Post
    Just maybe stock up on tires now.
    Continental, Maxxis, Schwalbe still make 26"

    And as long as they are being sold they will continue.

    You can have CushCore inserts in 26"

    Obsolete. No.

    Not modern. Something else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    The general sentiment in our culture back then was bikes are kid's toys. The only bikes anyone really considered "adult" back then would have been road so I can see 26" being classified as kids. Even today your average American will only own a kids bike and stop riding when they out grow it. Never grow up!
    You know why drivers who hit and kill cyclists are rarely prosecuted? Because the average American sees the cyclist as an immature twat riding an overpriced children's toy who deserved it. Fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMCDan View Post
    You know why drivers who hit and kill cyclists are rarely prosecuted? Because the average American sees the cyclist as an immature twat riding an overpriced children's toy who deserved it. Fact.
    You certainly have low opinion of the empathy of the average American and the justice system there.
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by las-palmas View Post
    You certainly have low opinion of the empathy of the average American and the justice system there.
    .
    Want to murder someone in America? Run them over with your car. The odds that you'll even be arrested, let alone convicted, are very, very low: The Perfect Crime - Freakonomics Freakonomics

    I've seen it happen too many times to not be jaded. Recently, a father of three here was hit and killed while riding on a broad-shouldered road, no charges filed against the driver. Several years back a friend of a friend was hit and killed riding near Bryce Canyon NP. The driver claimed he was blinded by the sun and didn't see the rider--he was driving west at 8:00 in the morning. The driver was given 3 months probation.

    These stories are shockingly common.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMCDan View Post
    These stories are shockingly common.

    My experience as well, drivers aren't held accountable and to add insult to injury (literally) cyclists are often cited after being run down.
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Who's the real Grampa?

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Not only that but everyone seems to forget Mountain Biking History as well. The grandfathers never wanted 26 inch wheel and knew a 650B would have been a better choice. It all came down to cost. Importing a child's 26 inch tire was cheaper than an adult 650B tire.
    Who exactly do you consider to be the grandfathers? All the guys I know from the 70s and 80s were full on into developing 26 in many aspects, we all know 650 has been an option but this is the first I've heard about old heads saying one-size fits all and should have been adopted instead. Obviously VVA didn't need 26 or 650, maybe he didn't even need a bike! Lol. Probably could have rode 14" kids wheels and beat the stuffin's out of us.
    Good friction shifting is getting hard to find nowadays....

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMCDan View Post
    You know why drivers who hit and kill cyclists are rarely prosecuted? Because the average American sees the cyclist as an immature twat riding an overpriced children's toy who deserved it. Fact.
    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/hit-an...lder-2019.html

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    It does really come down to different horses for different courses.

    I still ride the shart out of some very outdated bikes, mostly because they've been relegated to paved road duty. I'm lucky to have 50 miles of paved car free trails within 10 minutes of the house.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 26er is outdated why exactly?-rename-cropped.jpg  

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    Nice collection. I see some nice old Bombers on there as well!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Nice collection. I see some nice old Bombers on there as well!
    Thanks! In my opinion you can never have enough bombers.

    Sold the Ibis to this guy, he rides like a champ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4GeMhOYfFY&t=585s
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    26x2.8 is larger diametre than 27.5x2.3
    27.5x2.8 is same as 29x2.3

    What you need is what you should use.
    it is harder to get fit than to stay fit

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    Quote Originally Posted by eshew View Post
    Sold the Ibis to this guy, he rides like a champ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4GeMhOYfFY&t=585s
    Your Ibis is being treated hard now (do not know how you treated it of course) much harder than mine.
    Brian Lopes also did things on his old Mojo that are not for everybody to do.
    it is harder to get fit than to stay fit

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    Quote Originally Posted by las-palmas View Post
    Your Ibis is being treated hard now (do not know how you treated it of course) much harder than mine.
    Brian Lopes also did things on his old Mojo that are not for everybody to do.
    Yes it is certainly getting ridden harder than I ever rode it. I only did a handful of times, bought it for a backup frame in case my Bianchi cracked again after I had it fixed, but it has held up well & I needed the coin to build up a '15 Kona Process 153 frame. So off it went to Jeff along with a freshly rebuilt Z2, apparently he's taking much better care of it now, with a child seat on the top tube. Should lead a much easier life than in that vid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by las-palmas View Post
    26x2.8 is larger diametre than 27.5x2.3
    27.5x2.8 is same as 29x2.3

    What you need is what you should use.

    I love 26 x 2.8, I use it on by 27.5" bike on the front and it does great.

    I also feel a bit better now about my 26" bike after reading most only fit 2.1's in the back --- mine with the front derailleur pushed over 5mm with a longer crank spindle (Shimano Acera 122.5mm) can now fit a 2.4 in back, 3x chainring and all. It still isn't as fun downhill because of the older geometry, I totally agree about that.
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    As I read this and many other posts, and think back 20 years about how mountain bikes evolved over the years, how and where they were produced (and by whom), it becomes obvious that the industry has changed significantly. I want to say that between 1992 to 2008, it was pretty static producing bikes that were evolutions of previous designs, with each year bringing new more sophisticated developments that made the 26ers light and pretty efficient bikes. During that time there were trends poping up, single speed, fully rigid bikes, 69er, fat bikes, 29ers, 27.5, and probably others that I can't remember, but essentially people were trying different things to suit their riding preferences. During all that time, all these bikes coexisted, while 26ers were dominant main stream bikes. During that time most bike manufacturers were fairly small, though large bike companies dominated in terms of sales etc. By 2008 bunch of frame builders/bike manufacturers have either been bought out by larger companies, or went out of business. For a long time in the US - the Made in USA sticker was favored over Made in Elsewhere.
    The great recession which was brought on in 2008, coincided with the emergence of such devices/services as Iphone and Facebook, which in turn caused an explosion of apps and devices, that were and are capable of collecting tons of data about people's preferences etc. Since then, we can see that the evolution of bikes sped up rapidly, and radically. The fringe bike types begun to be promoted more and more to the point of making them the mainstream go to bikes, and by 2015, we had 3 main stream wheel sizes 26, 27.5 and 29. During this time, I've noticed articles popping up discussing the pros and cons of each wheel size, and even though the the benefits of the wheel size difference were not that significant for any regular person, the outcome was always the same - 26er was bad. There was a kids movie in 2005 called "Robots" where a savvy but evil exec comes up with a tag line for all the robots - why be you when you can be new, then the company stops making replacement parts for robots, concentrating on making upgrades... That is a little bit like what we saw happen in the bike industry. Everyone jumped on the opportunity of making the big bikes and relevant components while relegating 26er parts to low end componentry, or nos parts.
    In 2015 big bikes still used many of the 26er components, and I think that the geometry was not dialed in yet, so everyone pretty much just got sold on the wheel size alone. Obviously since 2015 bikes changed even more with big range cassettes, no front derailleurs, one by systems... and so on. Initially, the big bikes got heavy, and weight was no longer considered an important part of the bike, yet today we see the weight as a selling factor again. During this transition period, bike prices and component prices have increased quite a bit, especially when you look at the top end pricing. I've also noticed that manufacturers have become a lot better at controlling component prices, and there are fewer amazing deals on parts.
    From my perspective these changes were not great, for others new bikes are the best thing ever... and that's cool with me. But as I always say - I just wish that 26er R&D was not abandoned the way it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    But as I always say - I just wish that 26er R&D was not abandoned the way it was.
    Me too.

    My 2009 Ibis Mojo can still do what most of the new bikes can do and as long as I can control it 26 is the size of wheels on my bikes.

    26er is outdated why exactly?-drawing-web-s.jpg

    Just find some old videos with Brian Lopes on 2005 Mojo and few can do more on the new bikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    I just wish that 26er R&D was not abandoned the way it was.

    Do you think the move to wide rims - 35mm internal diameters with bigger tires (2.6 and above) would work with 26" rims? Would long and slack/steep work with 26" wheels?

    Edit. Interesting, here is a bike from almost 30 years ago with 26 wheels and "boost" spacing.


    https://dirtragmag.com/articles/in-p...hvs_S0cNB67mzc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Do you think the move to wide rims - 35mm internal diameters with bigger tires (2.6 and above) would work with 26" rims? Would long and slack/steep work with 26" wheels?

    Edit. Interesting, here is a bike from almost 30 years ago with 26 wheels and "boost" spacing.


    https://dirtragmag.com/articles/in-p...hvs_S0cNB67mzc
    I know that 26x2.6 is perfect for having more grip and with CushCore inserts and psi setting as low as between 15 and 20 psi (depending on where I ride) make the bike go in the direction I point the handlebar (a stiff fork is needed of course).

    Interesting old bike and the comments about what is made on bikes today (selling more is more interesting than making something really new and maybe better).

    Sure disc brakes are better than rim brakes but some of the new geometries are in my eyes not perfect; what they gain in one way they lose in other. Larger wheels roll over larger objects but learning skills is more important in my eyes. Smaller wheels are easier to turn narrow angles and how to learn to that with larger wheels might be difficult.

    26er is outdated why exactly?-dsc05407.jpg
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  86. #86
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    Because bigger is better and people buy into it. As for the jump from 26 to 27.5 that people claim to be negligible, just jump to fat bike forum. Over there you will find plenty of claims that 27.5 is sooooo much better than 26 when it comes to a fat bike. Just like in the old days 29 was sooo much better than 26. I keep my 26er and I am not planning to get rid of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Do you think the move to wide rims - 35mm internal diameters with bigger tires (2.6 and above) would work with 26" rims? Would long and slack/steep work with 26" wheels?

    Edit. Interesting, here is a bike from almost 30 years ago with 26 wheels and "boost" spacing.


    https://dirtragmag.com/articles/in-p...hvs_S0cNB67mzc
    We had wide rims and 2.6 to 3.0 tires in the early 00's. Of course we didn't have light weight casings in those sizes but back then people would have laughed at anyone wanting light casings in those sizes considering the only riders using those sizes were going big. DH racers found wide tires to be sluggish so 2.3 to 2.5 continued to win. FR died out so 2.6 to 3.0 tires did as well. Trends evolve and here we are today where people like 2.6 for flow trails, and anyone racing the clock figured out what DH racers did in the early 2k's that wider than 2.5 is slow.

    That bike you posted is interesting. I think people have forgotten or never knew how many configurations were played. I had an 06 vp free with 150mm rear spacing, 73mm BB so it was basically the same spacing as today's boost just different flanges and chain line. Stock head angle was 66, I short shocked it reducing travel to 165mm, slacked HA to 65, and lowered BB .75". TT ran a longer than most in its class but still not long like today's bikes. Other than reach and ST angle, that old bike was pretty "modern." Pictured here with a 30mm stem because it was long for its day. Put a 1x on this, drop a pound out of the frame with carbon, and this bike wouldn't just hold its own, it would tough to rival. I used to get negative reactions because of how slack it was lol. It took a while for people to accept 65 HA's for anything other than DH. Just realized I posted a pic in stock configuration. Use your imagination to picture a 8.5x2.5 shock which lowered and slacked it out.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 26er is outdated why exactly?-p4pb4471153.jpg  

    Last edited by slimat99; 07-31-2019 at 06:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    FR died out so 2.6 to 3.0 tires did as well. Trends evolve and here we are today where people like 2.6 for flow trails, and anyone racing the clock figured out what DH racers did in the early 2k's that wider than 2.5 is slow.
    2.6 is slow 2.5 not much faster but for those of us who want to be able to go through different kind of trails with different conditions the grip that wide tyres and low pressure give are more important than being faster.
    I could not care the least to be half an hour faster on a trail if that would mean that I now and then (or often) would have to fix lightweight components that were less solid than the ones I use, not to talk about having less grip on loose over hard surface.
    I have been wrong when I thought that most users of mtbr were regular guys who just like to get out in fresh air and stay reasonably fit as I see that so many are obsessed with being fast. I thought that people riding mountain bikes were different to the guys riding road bikes (and pretend they are in Tour de France) but I was wrong.
    Also I was stupid to believe that when something is not broken and still functions well there is no reason to replace it.
    I have now learned that marketing rules and if we try to resist we are fools, so I confess to like being a fool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by las-palmas View Post
    i have been wrong when i thought that most users of mtbr were regular guys who just like to get out in fresh air and stay reasonably fit as i see that so many are obsessed with shopping .
    fify

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    LOL. Why knock yourself out on the trail, when you could be online shopping for some anodized valve stems in a color that lets you express your individuality.

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    In case r-mm is still reading this thread... I think my 2001 Specialized Enduro (26", about 110/120 suspension) was the best handling bike I've owned. So, I disagree that modern geometry is definitely better. I was so happy with it that I never read bike reviews or anything... I just kept riding it until 2017 when finally both ends of the suspension died and woulda cost like $1200 to replace both.

    Elsworth Truth is a cool bike... keep that baby going.
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