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  1. #401
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    Well I'm about to upset my own thread now... But since it's my daggum thread, I'm gonna do it.

    Until I rode this bike, I've never had the desire to ride anything by my 26" AMHT. My terrain is peppered with chunk, sandstone and limestone Cliff drops, monster trucking, baby heads... General chunk.

    I've been considering the Stache for a while now, so I didn't take this step blindly.

    It's the best trail bike I've ever ridden. Small drops up to 3 feet are confident and cake, log rides to wheelie drops are a no brainer with all that meaty traction, small doubles, tables, etc... It flies great!

    For now, I've got no intention of selling my 26, but it will get less love.

    26? What's the point??!!-img_20170812_164259887-picsay.jpg
    26? What's the point??!!-img_20170812_164312302-picsay.jpg

  2. #402
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    Man, you've gone so far of topic it's crazy!!!!!
    All the gear and no idea.

  3. #403
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    Word!

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    Well I'm about to upset my own thread now... But since it's my daggum thread, I'm gonna do it.

    Until I rode this bike, I've never had the desire to ride anything by my 26" AMHT. My terrain is peppered with chunk, sandstone and limestone Cliff drops, monster trucking, baby heads... General chunk.

    I've been considering the Stache for a while now, so I didn't take this step blindly.

    It's the best trail bike I've ever ridden. Small drops up to 3 feet are confident and cake, log rides to wheelie drops are a no brainer with all that meaty traction, small doubles, tables, etc... It flies great!

    For now, I've got no intention of selling my 26, but it will get less love.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Wow- the 29 + look huge in that comparison. Stash has been well reviewed by many- Congrats. I'm on 650b+ and loving the confidence and stability as going from 26.

    Today, I'm taking the 1991 HardRock out for a spin though. I bumped it to 2.4 tires.
    bachman must spread some Reputation around before giving it to himself again. :madman:


  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post

    Click image for larger version. 

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    How much higher is the BB on that beast? Seriously, those wheels look absolutely massive next to the 26's.
    WTB: Med Bontrager Ti Lite, PM Me...

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    How much higher is the BB on that beast? Seriously, those wheels look absolutely massive next to the 26's.
    Supposedly at the same height, more or less.
    On the 29er the BB is lowered to compensate for the increase in axle height.

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    ... It flies great!...

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    How does it climb though? I would like to get to the top of the climb without having a heart attack. LoL. Those wheels are massive!

  8. #408
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    There is a little lens perspective foolery going on there making the difference appear greater than it really is.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yes. Absolutely, undeniably and inarguably yes.
    Anyone that has actually spent any time at all riding with talented riders will agree 100%.

    As far as easily verified evidence, I would start by presenting all mountain biking that took place prior to the year 2000.

    It was the pre digital-era, so I don't have many pics or video, but I've seen incredible riding done on bikes that the internet gear-weenies of today would undoubtedly blame for all their shortcomings.

    Someday I'll get around to scanning my old pics.
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to slapheadmofo again."
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Hell of a jump, dawg. Even though they're baggy shorts, I'm surprised that you can fit your balls into them.

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    How much higher is the BB on that beast? Seriously, those wheels look absolutely massive next to the 26's.
    Yep! When I first looked at it in the store, I was floored. I held it up next to a bike with 26x2.3" and my jaw dropped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Supposedly at the same height, more or less.
    On the 29er the BB is lowered to compensate for the increase in axle height.
    Since the early adaptation of the 29'er, there has been BB drop geometry. You literally do "sit down in" the bike. The picture above with the bikes side by side show the BB height is very similar.

    Just as the BB-chainstay has changed to drop the BB below the level of the rear axle, the shorter head tube helps compensate for an excessively tall stack. I love a good, tall stack height, but if I ran the same bar/stem/headset/spacer combo on both bikes, the Stache would feel like an old-man hybrid.
    Running a 25mm rise bar on the Stache versus a 50mm rise on my Komodo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brodino View Post
    How does it climb though? I would like to get to the top of the climb without having a heart attack. LoL. Those wheels are massive!
    You wouldn't believe me if I told you, LOL. My 26x2.4" Maxxis Ardent tires are Published weight 815 grams. Best tires I've ever had on my Komodo. Low knobs/fat casing so I can run lower psi and get more wrap-grip from the squishy tire. The 29x3" Chupacabra tires are ~884-895grams. They are excellent for my rocky/chunky terrain and handle rocks well. Not a huge difference in weight.

    Stan's Flow EX rims: 490g
    Sun Duroc 50 rims: 655g (not too shabby for something that's nearly double my Flow EX)

    Compared to my Hope Pro-4 / DT Comp / Stan's Flow EX wheelset on my Komodo...sure, there's a bit of a perceivable difference. But my wheelset was almost $900. My entire Trek Stache was only $999.

    If I had a $900 wheelset on the Stache, the numbers would be even closer together and the perception would be even more difficult to detect. I've got a boutique wheelset on one and an entry level on the other.

    Weight is not the cause of any perceivable difference anyhoo IMO. It's the contact patch.

    I think the biggest perceivable difference is when you're rolling on pavement. My Komodo is fairly snappy and the motor-up initial takeoff on the Stache is definitely noticeable. It has more to do with the larger contact patch than weight. The extra rubber on the ground does add an initial bit of resistance...but after the first couple of pedal strokes, it's all momentum.

    The moment you hit the trail and all those bumps, the tables turn. I climbed things on the Stache that my 26" Heckler, 26" Komodo, 26" SS couldn't even begin to get traction on. I normally pick my lines wisely on my 26" which is fun IMO and I feel accomplished. But I intentionally pick some very straight and dill-holery lines on the Stache. When it just rolls through it, I just laugh. Chunky/rocky climbs? Glide right up.

    As I motor toward rock-work, roots, etc...I find myself preparing to negotiate the obstacles... Yet when I get to them, it just rolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    There is a little lens perspective foolery going on there making the difference appear greater than it really is.
    Not much lens perspective foolery. I squatted to snap the picture and took it at the level of the wheelsets. 26" is about 26.3" and the 29x3 is about 30.5"...so you're looking at 4" difference.
    Last edited by chelboed; 08-18-2017 at 09:53 PM.

  11. #411
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    26? What's the point??!!-img_20170819_093541764-picsay.jpg

    Well I took the 26er out for a head-to-head against the Stache. My 26er is a 2005 Kinesis All Mountain Hardtail with a full-on brand new m8000 XT 1x11 build including m8000 cranks and 180/180 Ice Tech brakes. Super smooth 150mm RS coil fork.

    I took the same route on both bikes. Both bikes were super fun.

    My overall speed was faster on the Stache as well as less energy expended.

    That said, there are just some days where I'll prefer the 26er. It's fun in its own way. Some days it's fun to Bob'n'weave and dance through the boulders. Other days it's fun to motor the tank up and over everything.

    Will not be leaving this 26 forum any time soon, but will surely be spending time with the Plus-Boyz.

    Accelerating into a new jump after a berm is super snappy on my 26. No denying that!

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Well, it exists, and factory teams spend significant amounts of time and energy experimenting and testing equipment.
    OK I need opinions, including if am I messing up the downhill times or something. I've been using the rigid lockout on the 26" 80mm fork lately. Small downhill trail 3:55 time, longer serpentine ridge trails about 4 miles from the 1st trail 8:55 time. So I switch back to softest setting on the 80mm. That is the ONLY change, no other changes at all. Small trail time now 3:30, OK I thought this must be an anomaly, how can a crappy 80mm fork be 11% faster down the hill than locked rigid. So then I do the longer trail, 7:55 time, again 11% faster. It wasn't really noticeably faster but the times are the times. So now what? Do I keep this fork because now I'm more curious than ever to upgrade it and see how much time I can shave off. Upgradeitis!!!

  13. #413
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    how many times have you ridden the trail?
    All the gear and no idea.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    OK I need opinions, including if am I messing up the downhill times or something. I've been using the rigid lockout on the 26" 80mm fork lately. Small downhill trail 3:55 time, longer serpentine ridge trails about 4 miles from the 1st trail 8:55 time. So I switch back to softest setting on the 80mm. That is the ONLY change, no other changes at all. Small trail time now 3:30, OK I thought this must be an anomaly, how can a crappy 80mm fork be 11% faster down the hill than locked rigid. So then I do the longer trail, 7:55 time, again 11% faster. It wasn't really noticeably faster but the times are the times. So now what? Do I keep this fork because now I'm more curious than ever to upgrade it and see how much time I can shave off. Upgradeitis!!!
    It all depends on your skill level. It sounds like your 80mm travel gives you the confidence you need to push hard.

  15. #415
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    I always wanted a Cannondale but never could afford a full suspension Cannondale let alone any other full suspension bike when I was younger. I ended up with a Gary Fisher Hard tale but after 20 years of EMS my back cant take the bumps that it provides. I found a Cannondale RZ 120 frame with a lefty for fairly cheap and built my own Cannondale. With everything I have on it the bike would be $3500 new and I really cant afford that.
    26? What's the point??!!-mtb1.jpg

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    how many times have you ridden the trail?
    Small trail maybe 100 times by now. Never could break 4 min before recently. Still need to test the time more, it's by memory and the GPS app would take a while to dissect because it times the entire distance of the ride. Larger set of connected trails, maybe 15 times by now, for sure this 7:55 time is the fastest ever and I did it on a 26" instead of my 27.5"!!! Newfound confidence in the 26" now after hydraulic and front tire upgrades. I'll keep the 80mm fork for now. Just wondering how it would be with a 100mm or 120mm air fork, kind of like how a teenager dreams of some poster swimsuit model in their room.

  17. #417
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    well you need to wap your gps app for strava, that will dissect the ride for you on the fly.
    yeah 100 times is good enough to know the trail well, just sounded like you had only done it 3 or 4 times.
    I just smashed a decent time on a trail i know backwards on a 80mm forked, v-braked bike, over a 120mm forked disc braked bike, travel isn't everything
    All the gear and no idea.

  18. #418
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    i agree with jb weld. there is some trickery going on because the 29 is easily 3 to 4 inches in front of the 26

  19. #419
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    Dont forget, that 29 is a 29+, therefore bigger than a "plain old" 29er
    always mad and usually drunk......

  20. #420
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    This has been a fun & funny thread. Once or twice I nearly went back to hitting the sauce...

    I'm new to the forum...Great stuff! I have a 1990 full rigid 26 cannondale and a 2004 26 scalpel lefty. These are the two best reasons I have for riding the 26. If Cannondale would graciously provide me with a 27.5 and/or a 29, I'd be more than happy to give them a fair try...and report back to the forum with my findings.

  21. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by gray ghost View Post
    I'm new to the forum...Great stuff! I have a 1990 full rigid 26 cannondale and a 2004 26 scalpel lefty. These are the two best reasons I have for riding the 26.
    I love your reasoning . Two of my lightest-ever builds are 26ers. I'm enjoying them while they last. I ride 'em because I have 'em. It's as good a reason as any.

    Next bike will be a 650b though. Either that, or a 27.5. Still deciding.

  22. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanGennick View Post
    Next bike will be a 650b though. Either that, or a 27.5. Still deciding.
    Hehe, good one!

    One of my bikes is a 27'er, yup, in between 26" and 27.5".
    Terms and conditions may apply

  23. #423
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    Love old bikes

    I recently retired (62) and found an old 26" Omega 1800 in my back ally. I rode the hell out of that bike. It got me into fixing, riding bikes and restoring them.
    Right now I have restored magnas, and given them to friends and family, I did a Trek 820, Nishiki Manitoba, Giant Cypress DX for my wife, Schwinn Seirra, Nishiki Century road bike, and in the last two weeks I bought a1986 Bridgestone MB2 all original in great shape for 15.00 (Had an old Wilderness Trail Bikes seat) and today I bought a Univega Range Rover for 5.00 in rideable shape. I sell a few and put the money into bike tools. I ride all these bikes, on flat trails and paved trails. 20-50 miles a week.
    I only wish I could have discovered biking at 18-20 years of age, but I am happy with what I got and my wife and I have a blast. ( Rode my first BMX race last year and placed third, I will leave that to the younger guys due to bad neck. I will post pics in a few days.
    (Never pay retail!!!)

  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by dg5228 View Post
    I recently retired (62) and found an old 26" Omega 1800 in my back ally. I rode the hell out of that bike. It got me into fixing, riding bikes and restoring them.
    Right now I have restored magnas, and given them to friends and family, I did a Trek 820, Nishiki Manitoba, Giant Cypress DX for my wife, Schwinn Seirra, Nishiki Century road bike, and in the last two weeks I bought a1986 Bridgestone MB2 all original in great shape for 15.00 (Had an old Wilderness Trail Bikes seat) and today I bought a Univega Range Rover for 5.00 in rideable shape. I sell a few and put the money into bike tools. I ride all these bikes, on flat trails and paved trails. 20-50 miles a week.
    I only wish I could have discovered biking at 18-20 years of age, but I am happy with what I got and my wife and I have a blast. ( Rode my first BMX race last year and placed third, I will leave that to the younger guys due to bad neck. I will post pics in a few days.
    (Never pay retail!!!)
    Congrats on your new interest. I also learned by fixing up old bikes. Have fun and welcome to the site.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  25. #425
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    That sounds awesome, dg5228!! sorry about the neck trouble...third place is rockin'!

    I still have the frame of my wife's old Bridgestone purchased back in 1990...have been eyeballing it lately to maybe restore it.

    Happy trails!

  26. #426
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    Why 26? Well.....I've been riding MTB's since the mid 1970's, when the sport didn't even have a name yet. I've seen 40 years of tech advances, trends, improvements, and some downright dumb $hit (18mm rims w/2.3 skinwalls?!?!). Anyhoo, the ole "bigger& better" train just keeps on a rolling, year after year. At some point along the line, I decided actually riding was a lot more fun than buying/building something new every year just to be "cool." For my riding style and trails, (YMMV....) It's a solid, 26" platform, with mid-to heavy duty parts, ISIS BB, wider double-wall rims, 2.1-2.3 blackwalls, cable discs, etc. And yes I have several variations- Haro Sonix VL 120 (1x9), Mongoose black-diamond single-speed hardtail, no-name rigid 3x8 gravel pounder, and even a Hoffman 26" MTB/BMX pumptrack rig. Good thing is I've got TONS of interchangeable parts in the shop room, new replacement parts are cheap and plentiful, and they're all set up for minimal maintenance and max riding time

  27. #427
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    I've probably said this too many times in various forums, but I love my '01 Schwinn Homegrown Hardtail! As my build currently stands, I'm into it to the tune of nearly $3k. I bought it as a NIB, unbuilt frame. I built it exactly as I wanted it. King hubs, Stans Alpine hoops, Huntchinson Python tubeless tires, carbon bar, Thomson post, blah, blah, blah... It is the most fun, fastest accelerating bike I've ever ridden. At sub 20 lbs, it's also the lightest mountain bike I've ever ridden. Maybe it's the short wheelbase, maybe it's a lucky fit, I don't know, but It's the bike I choose over all others.

    I've contemplated converting it to 27.5, but why? It does everything I need it to do.
    "And crawling on the planet's face, some insects called, The Human Race..."

  28. #428
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    I still love my 26er and there will never be a more versatile wheel size. I am thinking about building up a new one, staying classy with steel, and trying to create the most versatile mountain bike I can. Here is a link to my google sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
    It also has a few other build ideas on it and me and my friend are constantly updating it. If any of you guys are thinking about doing a complete custom bike we put together this sheet setup and it works for almost all bikes. But 26 all the way. I ride my dad's old '97 Privateer Comp quite a bit. Works on the local trails, messing around town and the car parks, and great at the dirt jump park.

  29. #429
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    That cotic is a pretty sweet looking frame. Let us know if you get one.
    Looking for a Medium Scott Scale frame, preferably a 2012 in 26.

  30. #430
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    Will do. I'm just a high schooler trying to make some cash so it might take longer to acquire all of the parts than it would for most.

  31. #431
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    Because they never made an SX Trail in any other size

  32. #432
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    Like many I ride 26" because that's what I have. The Kona Dawg and the Heckler (see sig) are both great bikes and set up nice but the Heckler is my #1. I'm a bit of a clyde (6-4/220lbs) so last frame I broke I was very focused on reliability and chose the Heckler based on it's tried and true, simple design. And I have not broken a frame since.

    At the time, I was interested in trying a 29 but figured if spokes, swingarms, forks ect are all spaced out just a hair more in a 29 vs 26 they would be more likely to fail so I chose one of the toughest 26" bikes out there. I has not disappointed...I've worn out wheels, tranny, brakes, stem, seat, pivot bearings, etc. a few times but the frame is still rock solid.

    But...time ticks on and I am making the move to the dark side. I have a 2018 Kona Process 153 on order (27.5) so I will soon be experiencing the 'big wheel' hoopla (get it...HOOP-la?).
    12 Santa Cruz Heckler
    18 Kona Process 153 AL/DL (27.5)...:thumbsup:

  33. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by sturge View Post

    But...time ticks on and I am making the move to the dark side. I have a 2018 Kona Process 153 on order (27.5) so I will soon be experiencing the 'big wheel' hoopla (get it...HOOP-la?).
    You do know that 650 wheels are only 75mm more than 26 wheels in circumference ?
    (With same width tire)
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  34. #434
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    Just got to love the arguments, no bit of kit will make you a better rider. I have a HT 27" and an enduro 26" This past weekend I rode with some guys...... at the end of each trail damn, why you so fast... How come you 26" wheels roll easier over the rocks?........ I thought 29er wheels are supposed to better over rocks...... and it goes on and on and on. One was on a spez enduro 27" and the other on a Jeffsy. I just smiled and said, dont believe the hype about wheel size.
    If 26er is good for slope style and dirtjump, it will still be around for a longtime!! Definitely not obsolete!
    I like the 27" HT for what it is but I prefer my enduro bike. O and the Hardtail is an enduro Hardtail.

  35. #435
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    I kind of have one foot out the 26" door with my Pivot Mach 5.7C. I ran across a great deal on the frame and was going to build it up as a 26", but then decided to future proof a little and go 27.5. Not too bad, but a little taller than I'd like in the BB and limiting on the rear tire choice. Plus I had to give up a 1/2" of travel to make that work. Finally settled on running it with a 27.5" up front and a 26" in the back. Learned that a big 26" tire really isn't that much smaller than a smallish 27.5" tire. Anyways, the bike still rocks and I'll be keeping it a while. Of course I have a 29" hardtail that gets half the reps, too

  36. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar View Post
    I kind of have one foot out the 26" door with my Pivot Mach 5.7C. I ran across a great deal on the frame and was going to build it up as a 26", but then decided to future proof a little and go 27.5. Not too bad, but a little taller than I'd like in the BB and limiting on the rear tire choice. Plus I had to give up a 1/2" of travel to make that work. Finally settled on running it with a 27.5" up front and a 26" in the back. Learned that a big 26" tire really isn't that much smaller than a smallish 27.5" tire. Anyways, the bike still rocks and I'll be keeping it a while. Of course I have a 29" hardtail that gets half the reps, too
    Welcome to the 27/26er team.

    26? What's the point??!!-ky4t81ah.jpg

  37. #437
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    ^B26er... please.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  38. #438
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    Very nice! Here is mine. I don't think I hold my friends up too much 26? What's the point??!!-mach-57c.jpg

  39. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    ^B26er... please.
    The Marauder setup!

  40. #440
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    There are many advantages to a 26" wheel if you are into dirt jumping. Lighter, stiffer, less gyroscope effect and less effects from crosswinds. Don't forget about half the pros at Redbull Rampage still ride 26".
    I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not so sure.

  41. #441
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    Anybody who thinks there's no point in riding a 26" is not a real rider. They're a poser who just HAS to have the latest bicycling underwear to be 'cool'.
    What's next, the 29'er guys gonna say they're no good because 27.5 is here now? Get real. Ride what you like and do it for yourself. Don't ride to impress the other poser clowns who just HAVE to get that bicycling bra and not for their woman.
    DAMN THE MUD, FULL SPEED AHEAD!!

  42. #442
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    If you want the fastest, you're not going to be riding 26".

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    Hope no bikes are not cool

    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    Well I'm about to upset my own thread now... But since it's my daggum thread, I'm gonna do it.

    Until I rode this bike, I've never had the desire to ride anything by my 26" AMHT. My terrain is peppered with chunk, sandstone and limestone Cliff drops, monster trucking, baby heads... General chunk.

    I've been considering the Stache for a while now, so I didn't take this step blindly.

    It's the best trail bike I've ever ridden. Small drops up to 3 feet are confident and cake, log rides to wheelie drops are a no brainer with all that meaty traction, small doubles, tables, etc... It flies great!

    For now, I've got no intention of selling my 26, but it will get less love.

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    Man, you messed up your own post LOL!

    I have all wheel sizes and each one has your place

    the hardtail 29er has its place: on the garage
    the 27.5 fullsuss has its place: competition, its my xc rig, 120mm travel, light weight everything from rims to tires, no dropper, etc, firm shock and forks, not so much fun.

    the 26 full suss has its place: on the trails. a heavy bike because of the hops, mavic ex830 36h, 800g each rem alone, 850g each tire, dropper posts, everything that can make a bike heavier is there. I switched the original fork, fox factory 120mm with an old rockshox u-turn, that allows me change from 80 to 130mm, what makes this bike the real do-it-all bike. climb everything at 80mm, go downhill at 130mm. not much but this is a blast. not only, I know that if a piece of wood get into the wheels, it wil get destroyed by the sturdy stiff spokes i have. piece of mind... thinking on putting lighter wheels on her, but I think If I do all the other bikes will get sold.

    Unfortunately Ive bought myself a long travel 650b and Im afraid my wife will oblige me to sell one of the bikes... hopefully I find a buyer for the 29er!

    long story short: at 5"5 long legs, no wheelsize has better geometry for me than medium 26ers.

    why 26ers?
    because they are fun.
    because soon as I started riding with my wife I could stop spending money trying to keep up with the other guys and ride what I really like. because it makes things harder and thats the whole point of the sport. make myself better rider, make me balance better to get the better lines... fat bikes are fun? ow yeah I love fatties. once you go fat you never go back. they allow you to monstertruck over everything? yes. they are also minority? yes! people who hate 29ers love 26ers and fat bikes, puls bikes and baby fat bikes

    conclusion: you have not messed up your post. you just reinforced bikes are meant to be fun.

  44. #444
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    Forgot to mention:

    I have put my engineering degree to test and thought I should run the math before saying anything. People say big things about inertia but inertia alone doesnt mean the full picture. Inertia only have a meaning when coupled with rotational speed. When you put the math together for rotational energy, which is what counts: power, there will be no difference on the wheel size because the radius that influence inertia values will be cancelled on the rotational speed equation. So it will come down to mass placement.

    example: given two wheels, and the rim weight is exactly at 0.9 of the total radius, and they weight the same, no matter how big the rim is, the energy equation for that will be the same.

    So fat tires might change things slightly as the rim will get proportionally inwards when compared to normal wheels. It will be good as the more centered the mass, the less energy it takes to rotate. however, fat tires are heavier so it might counter act things.

    During my calculations, Ive figured out that energy to rotate thes rims are something like 1/10th of the energy required to rotate the tires. So going tubeless and having reasonably light tires is the way to go. Spokes are 1/1000th of the tires so dont mind if your wheel is heavy because of spokes. It is better to have a light rim with plenty of spokes than a heavy rim with less spokes. Both dinamically and structurally. Energy required to rotate the hubs are neglectible. its so small that you can consider it static weight.

    Of course, rotating or not, every gram will have to be taken uphill and the work equation is mass times distance plus mass times gravity times height. divide them by time and you have power. Conclusion: if you have two riders with same power ability and same weight, completely equal, being one wiht a 20lbs bike and the other has a 30lbs bike. The lighter bike will take the podium as the total mass (rider+bike) is lesser.

    26ers have the advantage of being lighter. two rims of same kind, two tires of same kind will always be lighter in 26er format than 29er format.

    The next math topic comes into a different name: vibration. every time your bike chatter on the trail, every time it went up half an inch, the energy to lift the bike plus yourself came from the pedals. mass x gravity x height. thats why we get slowed when things start vibrating. there are two ways to deal with that:
    1 - bigger wheels
    2 - good suspension

    At this point, the conclusion is: good suspension trumps wheelsize. if youre tight on the budget, a cheap 29er will be more comfortable but heavier to pedal. a cheap 26er will be less comfortable and lighter to pedal.

    an expensive 26er with good components will not let you down. So as an expensive 29er will also not let you down if youre light rider and can deal the flexibility. cant be bigger and stiffer at same time. Smaller will always be stiffer. You can make the most of engineering th get a better stiffer 29er but the same technology applied to a 26er will render even better results.

    When motorcycles remove the suspension or add locks to them, or move to bigger wheels, than we can review this topic. Meanwhile, the motorcycle wheels are smaller and they have good suspension.


    more consideration on wheel sizes: small people get along on small bikes. big wheels on small bikes is the same as big bikes with small wheels. things are meant to be proportional. Look at the cars. big tires have more volume and help big heavy riders to run same pressure as small riders on small wheels. To me, small bikes, medium bikes, large bikes should all have proportional dimensions, with wheels getting bigger, chainstays getting bigger, wheelbase getting bigger, all in same proportion, ending up in similar handling regardless of size.
    Last edited by edmodasvirgens; 01-08-2018 at 11:08 AM. Reason: typos

  45. #445
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    below you can find the equations. bear in mind that for the same linear speed of the bike bigger wheels will have lower rotational speed than smaller wheels. smaller wheels will have less inertia and higher rotational speed and vice versa for bigger wheels.

    linear speed of the bike = V
    mass = m
    radius of the mass = r
    Inertia = I = m.r^2
    rotational speed = W = V . 2Pi / 2Pi.r = V/r
    energy = e = I.W^2
    energy = m.r^2 . v^2/r^2 = m.v^2

    the final equation, when putting together inertia and rotational speed using the bikes linear speed, you can see the radius get cancelled and the energy is purely mass times the square of the speed.

    these equations are relevant for the mass in contact with soil, the maximum radius, which would be the tire treads. If you workout the inertia equation for the rim, the radius will be, lets say, 0.9r. So, if the other wheel in comparison has the same proportions, with the rim at 0.9r, things will be equal as well.

    good luck now trying to convince somebody bigger wheels are faster just because they are big... take a look at race cars and monster trucks....

  46. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmodasvirgens View Post
    below you can find the equations...
    You are forgetting something. Buying the latest tech introduces the 'wanker' factor that will add a least 2mph to your speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    You are forgetting something. Buying the latest tech introduces the 'wanker' factor that will add a least 2mph to your speed.
    stickers have the same effect. this is a bike hack lol!

  48. #448
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    some peeps like all the new technology....some peeps don't. I fall into the last category. I like steep head angles, and less suspension. I don't like modern plastic vehicles. I go for real steel. I'm short, so I like 26er's....heck, even my motorcycle is a hardtail. Most peeps just like to ride barcaloungers. 26er's aren't going extinct....

  49. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmodasvirgens View Post
    below you can find the equations. bear in mind that for the same linear speed of the bike bigger wheels will have lower rotational speed than smaller wheels. smaller wheels will have less inertia and higher rotational speed and vice versa for bigger wheels.

    linear speed of the bike = V
    mass = m
    radius of the mass = r
    Inertia = I = m.r^2
    rotational speed = W = V . 2Pi / 2Pi.r = V/r
    energy = e = I.W^2
    energy = m.r^2 . v^2/r^2 = m.v^2

    the final equation, when putting together inertia and rotational speed using the bikes linear speed, you can see the radius get cancelled and the energy is purely mass times the square of the speed.

    these equations are relevant for the mass in contact with soil, the maximum radius, which would be the tire treads. If you workout the inertia equation for the rim, the radius will be, lets say, 0.9r. So, if the other wheel in comparison has the same proportions, with the rim at 0.9r, things will be equal as well.

    good luck now trying to convince somebody bigger wheels are faster just because they are big... take a look at race cars and monster trucks....
    Bigger wheels are faster if they are rolling over rocks and other obstacles. I've timed a 26" vs. a 27.5" on a very rocky trail, the 27.5" was almost 10% faster. Even more importantly, I enjoyed the 27.5" ride more than the 26". I don't even want to ride a 26" anymore on extremely rocky trails because it's more of a chore than an enjoyment. If you are on a flat surface that's a different story. The numbers above assume a flat smooth surface. That doesn't exist on a real trail. Look, if you have fun on a 26" that's great but don't say it's faster on a rocky trail unless you have real-world timing numbers.
    We ALL have something to learn here. Post helpful solutions instead of flaming for your own sadistic need.

  50. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Bigger wheels are faster if they are rolling over rocks and other obstacles. I've timed a 26" vs. a 27.5" on a very rocky trail, the 27.5" was almost 10% faster. Even more importantly, I enjoyed the 27.5" ride more than the 26". I don't even want to ride a 26" anymore on extremely rocky trails because it's more of a chore than an enjoyment. If you are on a flat surface that's a different story. The numbers above assume a flat smooth surface. That doesn't exist on a real trail. Look, if you have fun on a 26" that's great but don't say it's faster on a rocky trail unless you have real-world timing numbers.
    You are right. I have mentioned on the previous post that bigger wheels compensate for bad suspension. That's why cheaper 29ers seems faster, bringing the overall impression that bigger is faster. In fact, bigger is less prone to chattering and overall vibration, which might lead you to be faster for general trail riding. On the other hand, cheap = heavy = slower. For some trails, it will be a hindering fact. For others it will be not. I can even tell that Im on the worst side of the equation as the 26 hops I ride are very very heavy, heavier than cheap 29er stuff. I think they came from a downhill bike. Here is where I find my fun. Make me work hard even if riding slow with my wife and I can do anything to the bike it will not bend the wheels.

    I have fun on all my bikes 26, 27.5 and 29er (I have them all). No bike is not fun. Every bike is fun to ride on its own aspects. The fact that the 26er needs better line choice and more work to go along difficult rocky trails can be a fun factor for some people, while fun for other's is to go fast.

    During my experiences, I've noticed that tires play a role, so important as wheel size. I ride some trails where it is very hard to find traction and I was giving up the 26er because of this. However, I've found later that different tires would provide traction and I was happy again riding the bikes that suited me. I never find a 650b or 29er which geometry suited me like a glove but I'm still looking for. I'm sure I will find it male version. My wife's 29er was great (because felt like 26er) and my wifes 650b is even greater.

    The whole point of my manifesto was to say the 26ers are not obsolete just because the wheel size. There are great bikes around for very cheap and People can make advantage of this and have very good bikes and have lots of fun with them. All my 26er tech is above my other bikes tech because of the price. Except for my wife's bike, but her bike costed a car lol
    Last edited by edmodasvirgens; 01-09-2018 at 09:10 AM. Reason: typos

  51. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Bigger wheels are faster if they are rolling over rocks and other obstacles. I've timed a 26" vs. a 27.5" on a very rocky trail, the 27.5" was almost 10% faster. Even more importantly, I enjoyed the 27.5" ride more than the 26". I don't even want to ride a 26" anymore on extremely rocky trails because it's more of a chore than an enjoyment. If you are on a flat surface that's a different story. The numbers above assume a flat smooth surface. That doesn't exist on a real trail. Look, if you have fun on a 26" that's great but don't say it's faster on a rocky trail unless you have real-world timing numbers.
    Maybe so. But im on 29 remedy and still cant break my pr's from 2014. Versus a cannondale rz140. If you ride like 26 is holding you back it will. If you forget what wheel size you're on and just know the bike, and are going Balls to the walls trying to shave every second you can where ever you can.... it's more about you.

  52. #452
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    I did break most of my PR's going uphill within the first few rides though.... just not downhill.... everything it took me to get is fast as I could be before d h I just haven't done it yet. 6 months ago I didn't think I'd be able to beat any of those PR's ever again from 2014 but I actually think I can on this bike.... I just got to pay my dues and have a good day......

    PS: I probably was faster Bank in the corners on the 26th for sure

  53. #453
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    26 feels faster, and for some of us, that is enough.

  54. #454
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    My point is I'm still riding my 26er wheels, sometimes they're fat and sometimes they're skinny.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  55. #455
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    I like my SX Trail. It's a 26 inch bike and I like it. I have a 29 inch Specialized hard tail and I like it too. Just ride your damn bike.

  56. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    26 feels faster, and for some of us, that is enough.
    It does feel faster off the line so to speak. Whatever you like, you ride. I don't understand the inferiority complex here with the major manufacturers moving on to larger tire sizes. Are people really basing their identity on their tire sizes and their bike makes? I think one day someone should make an indie movie out of 26" bikes, titled something like The Rise and Fall of the 26" Mountain Bike Tire, 1978-2013. It may have fallen but it will never go away, don't worry.
    We ALL have something to learn here. Post helpful solutions instead of flaming for your own sadistic need.

  57. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Bigger wheels are faster if they are rolling over rocks and other obstacles. I've timed a 26" vs. a 27.5" on a very rocky trail, the 27.5" was almost 10% faster. Even more importantly, I enjoyed the 27.5" ride more than the 26". I don't even want to ride a 26" anymore on extremely rocky trails because it's more of a chore than an enjoyment. If you are on a flat surface that's a different story. The numbers above assume a flat smooth surface. That doesn't exist on a real trail. Look, if you have fun on a 26" that's great but don't say it's faster on a rocky trail unless you have real-world timing numbers.
    Here's some timing for you. 1.5 seconds faster on 26 compared to 27. Keep an eye on this guy next year. One of the fastest in the world as is and he's young.

    https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Ma...g-Serious,1853
    Last edited by slimat99; 01-10-2018 at 05:35 PM.

  58. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Bigger wheels are faster if they are rolling over rocks and other obstacles. I've timed a 26" vs. a 27.5" on a very rocky trail, the 27.5" was almost 10% faster. Even more importantly, I enjoyed the 27.5" ride more than the 26". I don't even want to ride a 26" anymore on extremely rocky trails because it's more of a chore than an enjoyment. If you are on a flat surface that's a different story. The numbers above assume a flat smooth surface. That doesn't exist on a real trail. Look, if you have fun on a 26" that's great but don't say it's faster on a rocky trail unless you have real-world timing numbers.
    Were geometry and travel and tires and air pressure held consistent? There is one trail I ride that has a super steep rock garden full of 6" to 1' rocks. I'm literally twice as fast on it on my 26 as my 650b. But that's because the 26 is a dh rig designed to go fast on that type of trail and the 650b is a trail bike.

    Mathematically the max difference of the angle of attack between a 26er and a 29er is like 8 percent. Even if that difference translated entirely into speed (which it doesn't) you won't see a 10 percent difference between a 650b and a 26er based solely on wheels.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
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  59. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    26 feels faster, and for some of us, that is enough.
    Yeah I remember reading so many stories of 26 riders riding 29ers for the first time and feeling like they were sluggish, then being shocked when they learned their lap time on the 29 was faster. But like so many things mtb, so many factors play into it. I enjoy my 29er and my 26er. I have no idea which one is actually faster.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  60. #460
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    aaagh, it comes down to the rider really.
    I ride my 26er almost all the time. I own a 650b as well. When I ride with my friends, I am faster by alot compared to the guys on 29 or 650. In fact all the fast guys are riding 26 bikes. All the bikes across the board are trail and enduro bikes, so no major difference including the year models are about the same.
    I wish for the DH world cup, riders would be allowed to make use of 26er wheels. There were some guys who were alot faster on it.

  61. #461
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    I think the post is more like: why do you still ride 26? we cant bring a war 26x 650 or 29er because everyone here might have a 26er, look at her and say: I cant sell you, you are so fun. Even when you already ride bigger wheels just because youve got a superstar new bike and she was not available in 26 size. Your wife look at you and demands the 26er to be sold but you resist, because it is more than a bike. You know you still can rip on her and await for the day that you will be so fit that you will get her and go faster than everyone else, or on that day that you know you dont need to go fast and want have fun, even if this day will not happen in an year time, you still save your bike and just cant let her go.

  62. #462
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    In one of the most scientifically done comparisons of wheel size, done by world cup racers, 29ers were faster than 26ers by much less than half of 1% over a course several miles long.

    This is a car video, but it shows how two completely different vehicles with different strengths become very evenly matched by a mixture of track features.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIggM65KBRk

  63. #463
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    ^That's a good point. I've seen a professional racecar driver in a Porsche Boxster on the track obliterating mediocre drivers in cars that had 2-3 times the horse power and cost 2-3 times as much.

    I like to buy shiny new bikes and parts from time to time, but the bike marketers will have us believe that we need to buy the latest and greatest to be better faster riders when in reality we should be focusing more on developing our talent first. I bought a 27.5 (still have a 26) not too long ago but now the new cool thing is mid travel 29ers! Me and my wallet can't keep up with these trends.

  64. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by MudSnow View Post
    In one of the most scientifically done comparisons of wheel size, done by world cup racers, 29ers were faster than 26ers by much less than half of 1% over a course several miles long.
    I don't believe the wheel size change was ever about racing. It was about selling bikes.

  65. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    If you want the fastest, you're not going to be riding 26".
    My goal when out riding isn't to be the fastest, but to have the most fun getting there. My Strava times aren't exactly blazing downhill because I am aiming for every piece of chunk I can find.

    Doing that kind of riding, there is no difference between my 29" 160mm bike, and my friends 26" 180mm bike. We are both full of smiles when we regroup at the bottom of the hill.

  66. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I don't believe the wheel size change was ever about racing. It was about selling bikes.
    Most certainly not about racing considering the coming out year of 650b, which just happened to be the first year of the EWS, saw 1st and 2nd overall won on discontinued 26'ers. The second year of the EWS 26" was leading the overall before it was completely removed from competition.

    We all know it's the rider not the bike, but there's no getting around the fact that the industry pulled the plug on a wheel size that was wining back to back EWS titles.

  67. #467
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    The industry pulled 26" wheels, but I can still get 26" wheels in many varieties: The confusion...

    :headexplodes:
    Goodbye '95 ZJ. Just so you know, transfering box of left behind womens panties to next truck. Thank you ZJ!

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    If the course is at all bumpy, I'll choose the 12kg 29er hard tail over the 9.6kg 26er hardtail every time.

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    I will take a different tact. Why I am replacing my 26"er.

    The Liquid20 is 14 years old. The frame is beginning to get some cracks long the rear triangle and I don't feel like taking it to a specialized welding shop that can do aluminum.
    The Rockshock Psylo shocks have had it, or more to point, just don't handle my body anymore. Getting someone to custom build a core for them just doesn't make any sense. So the only other option is to replace the forks all together. $$$ So then you start to look at what else is on the way out. Do I want to also replace the rear cassette and chain? (7 years for both of them). The Hayes hydrolic breaks need to be overhauled. The tires and tubes are just about ridden through their useful life. So when I started to add up the cost of fixing everything that needs to get done, it came to light that the cost of just buying a new 27.5" was going to be only a few dollars more than trying to revive what you might as well say is a dead horse.

    Why am I riding a 27.5"er. becuase it cost too much to ride my 26" any more.

  70. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadkill401 View Post
    So when I started to add up the cost of fixing everything that needs to get done, it came to light that the cost of just buying a new 27.5" was going to be only a few dollars more than trying to revive what you might as well say is a dead horse.

    Why am I riding a 27.5"er. becuase it cost too much to ride my 26" any more.
    I get that. My own next bike will be a 27.5. I'll buy whatever is in the mainstream for value, and right now that means 27.5.

  71. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadkill401 View Post
    I will take a different tact. Why I am replacing my 26"er.

    The Liquid20 is 14 years old. The frame is beginning to get some cracks long the rear triangle and I don't feel like taking it to a specialized welding shop that can do aluminum.
    The Rockshock Psylo shocks have had it, or more to point, just don't handle my body anymore. Getting someone to custom build a core for them just doesn't make any sense. So the only other option is to replace the forks all together. $$$ So then you start to look at what else is on the way out. Do I want to also replace the rear cassette and chain? (7 years for both of them). The Hayes hydrolic breaks need to be overhauled. The tires and tubes are just about ridden through their useful life. So when I started to add up the cost of fixing everything that needs to get done, it came to light that the cost of just buying a new 27.5" was going to be only a few dollars more than trying to revive what you might as well say is a dead horse.

    Why am I riding a 27.5"er. becuase it cost too much to ride my 26" any more.

    Wait for 26+ bikes to come out (not just tires, the whole bike). They are here but there are very few options right now. Wait a year or two for them to go mainstream.

    For a while I thought I'd never buy a 26" again, and I criticized them in here, for better or worse. With the standard 1.95 inch tire I was getting a ton of pedal strikes and getting hung up on embedded rocks that stuck up 1-2 inches out of the ground. It was annoying. No bad crashes or anything, but annoying enough to buy a 27.5" (again). Then for the 'problem' 26" bike I went wider on the 26 front tire to 2.4 inches and that solved a lot of problems, including pedal strikes and rock hang ups. That added roughly 3/4 of an inch to the height of the tire compared to the 1.95 inch standard one. Some would argue that I just got more skilled at clearing obstacles. While I am flattered at their compliment, no, it's the tire, it's not like I suddenly got skilled in a few days. I noticed the difference almost immediately. The bike's equipment did that, not me. The old geometry of short and upright still sucks for going down steep stuff (I feel like the whole bike is going fall forward over the front wheel), but downhill is much more doable with a wider tire. Then I read about 26+, and how 26 x 3.0 is as tall or a bit taller than a standard 27.5 x 2.1 tire.

    At 5'8" and 145 lbs, I love the thought of 27.5+ but I don't need any more rollover height than 27-28 inches. If a 26 x 2.8 is about 27.4 inches tall, and 26 x 3.0 is on paper 27.7 inches tall, that's enough rollover for me. So if and when 26+ bikes start coming out with a lot of different options, like the usual suspension, drivetrain, brake, etc. stuff then I'll seriously look at them. 27.5+ sounds awesome but it's basically a 29" with wide tires. 26+ seems a lot better, more nimble size combined with better traction, and still decent rollover, it seems like the best of all worlds for a rider under 5'10". I have not tried a fat bike yet but I'm not doing snow/sand so a + tire should be perfect. I wonder if a company like Trek will sell these in 13", 15", 17" frame sizes (I'll pick 17"). In the meantime I'll put a 27.5" fork on the 26" bike and try a 2.8 front tire for a while.
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  72. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Wait for 26+ bikes to come out (not just tires, the whole bike). They are here but there are very few options right now. Wait a year or two for them to go mainstream.

    For a while I thought I'd never buy a 26" again, and I criticized them in here, for better or worse. With the standard 1.95 inch tire I was getting a ton of pedal strikes and getting hung up on embedded rocks that stuck up 1-2 inches out of the ground. It was annoying. No bad crashes or anything, but annoying enough to buy a 27.5" (again). Then for the 'problem' 26" bike I went wider on the 26 front tire to 2.4 inches and that solved a lot of problems, including pedal strikes and rock hang ups. That added roughly 3/4 of an inch to the height of the tire compared to the 1.95 inch standard one. Some would argue that I just got more skilled at clearing obstacles. While I am flattered at their compliment, no, it's the tire, it's not like I suddenly got skilled in a few days. I noticed the difference almost immediately. The bike's equipment did that, not me. The old geometry of short and upright still sucks for going down steep stuff (I feel like the whole bike is going fall forward over the front wheel), but downhill is much more doable with a wider tire. Then I read about 26+, and how 26 x 3.0 is as tall or a bit taller than a standard 27.5 x 2.1 tire.

    At 5'8" and 145 lbs, I love the thought of 27.5+ but I don't need any more rollover height than 27-28 inches. If a 26 x 2.8 is about 27.4 inches tall, and 26 x 3.0 is on paper 27.7 inches tall, that's enough rollover for me. So if and when 26+ bikes start coming out with a lot of different options, like the usual suspension, drivetrain, brake, etc. stuff then I'll seriously look at them. 27.5+ sounds awesome but it's basically a 29" with wide tires. 26+ seems a lot better, more nimble size combined with better traction, and still decent rollover, it seems like the best of all worlds for a rider under 5'10". I have not tried a fat bike yet but I'm not doing snow/sand so a + tire should be perfect. I wonder if a company like Trek will sell these in 13", 15", 17" frame sizes (I'll pick 17"). In the meantime I'll put a 27.5" fork on the 26" bike and try a 2.8 front tire for a while.
    This is what I am excited about, especially when more tires and wheels become available. I am 99% sure my next bike will be a custom something hardtail, but I'd like it to be 26+ or 27.5 only. I have no need or desire for 27.5+ or larger, I too am only 5'8".
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  73. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaklabl View Post
    This is what I am excited about, especially when more tires and wheels become available. I am 99% sure my next bike will be a custom something hardtail, but I'd like it to be 26+ or 27.5 only. I have no need or desire for 27.5+ or larger, I too am only 5'8".
    Another option I may do (if 26 x 2.8 can fit in back, it's going to be tight), that you can put 26+ tires (and of course wheels) on a 27.5 frame, so you basically get a modern geometry bike with 26" wheels. The 26+ wheelsets are typically $500+; you can have the LBS build them for roughly $150 each depending on the hub quality you want. The 26+ rims are there, a lot of them, it's just the wheelsets right now in 2018 that are elusive and on the pricey side at least for me. On the front I only need the standard 100 x 9 so a Shimano Alivio hub for $12 is fine, I'm not picky as long as it rolls.
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  74. #474
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    Why I ride 26". I have built up a 26er with top end NOS parts that were substantially discounted. The handling is so quick. I get a perverse pleasure of leaving a hotshot unfit rider behind on his overbuilt full suspension bike that he brought to a trail that only requires a simple bike.I have all three wheel sizes, they each have their attributes. NOS frames can be purchased from China for under $200.00, such as Cube brand or Giant. I set mine up with a 2x10(Shimano),1x9, 1x10 (RaceFace single ring) with perfect chainline.

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    Most 27.5 frames and forks will easily take at least a 26 x 2.8" on the front and 26 x 2.6" or bigger on the back.

    And there are several 26" rims 35mm inside or wider, such as WTB Asym, Velocity Dually, WTB Scraper, Stan's Hugo.
    Last edited by MudSnow; 03-16-2018 at 12:48 PM.

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    Just scored a set of Schwalbe Pro Core inserts for my Chameleon for about $60us.
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  77. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmodasvirgens View Post
    I think the post is more like: why do you still ride 26? we cant bring a war 26x 650 or 29er because everyone here might have a 26er, look at her and say: I cant sell you, you are so fun. Even when you already ride bigger wheels just because youve got a superstar new bike and she was not available in 26 size. Your wife look at you and demands the 26er to be sold but you resist, because it is more than a bike. You know you still can rip on her and await for the day that you will be so fit that you will get her and go faster than everyone else, or on that day that you know you dont need to go fast and want have fun, even if this day will not happen in an year time, you still save your bike and just cant let her go.
    I am exactly in this boat. In my garage there are four bikes hanging from the ceiling. 26,27.5,29 and 29HT. No way I am selling my Blur XCc (21.5 lb). It is my first high end bike. Too many good memories. Like to take it for a spin from time to time. Still tons of nimble fun! Despite being "outdated" this bike still rocks. Also it is the bike that easiest fits in the trunk

  78. #478
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    Similar situation here as well.

    Something else we going through these days is 27.2, what's the point?

    We've got a brace of 27.2 seatposts.

    Now we're in the habit of using dropper posts, and 27.2 is just too skinny and niche for many options. However there are a few out there.

    Who ride's 26 & 27.2 with a dropper post? Who has drilled into an old 26" seat tube to create a stealth cable routing? Would anyone dare to?

    I don't, but I'm telling you right now I probably will do these things one day...well maybe not.

    So will my wife. She's got a nice 26'er.

    Back in the day there was a whole different approach obviously, where we'd just get back and sort of stiffen up the core and suck the seat into the gut toake it down the steepest sections. It was nuts. Sometimes we'd get stuck back there! Remember that?

    Last weekend I saw a guy on a pristine 94' Bontrager. It looked like a BMX bike next to all the long legged low and slack FS bikes on the summit. But it still looked slick.





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  79. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burns View Post
    Similar situation here as well.

    Something else we going through these days is 27.2, what's the point?

    We've got a brace of 27.2 seatposts.

    Now we're in the habit of using dropper posts, and 27.2 is just too skinny and niche for many options. However there are a few out there.

    Who ride's 26 & 27.2 with a dropper post? Who has drilled into an old 26" seat tube to create a stealth cable routing? Would anyone dare to?

    I don't, but I'm telling you right now I probably will do these things one day...well maybe not.

    So will my wife. She's got a nice 26'er.

    Back in the day there was a whole different approach obviously, where we'd just get back and sort of stiffen up the core and suck the seat into the gut toake it down the steepest sections. It was nuts. Sometimes we'd get stuck back there! Remember that?

    Last weekend I saw a guy on a pristine 94' Bontrager. It looked like a BMX bike next to all the long legged low and slack FS bikes on the summit. But it still looked slick.





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    Actually this Bontrager might be older than 1994. Can anyone identify it?

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  80. #480
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    probably 92 or 93...
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    Love those CB cranks.
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  82. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by k^2 View Post
    I am exactly in this boat. In my garage there are four bikes hanging from the ceiling. 26,27.5,29 and 29HT. No way I am selling my Blur XCc (21.5 lb). It is my first high end bike. Too many good memories. Like to take it for a spin from time to time. Still tons of nimble fun! Despite being "outdated" this bike still rocks. Also it is the bike that easiest fits in the trunk
    Turning 40 with 2 kids really changed my perspective. I no longer try and keep up with the Jones' and most of my rides are solo rides when the kids decide to take a nap. Its all about exercise and fun for me now, and I find my 26 is exceedingly fun.
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  83. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by skankingbiker View Post
    Turning 40 with 2 kids really changed my perspective. I no longer try and keep up with the Jones' and most of my rides are solo rides when the kids decide to take a nap. Its all about exercise and fun for me now, and I find my 26 is exceedingly fun.
    Ditto. Kids sleeping in late or napping then im off. Dont have the skill, stamina, or budget for anything fancier. The 09 trance does just fine.

  84. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by skankingbiker View Post
    Turning 40 with 2 kids really changed my perspective. I no longer try and keep up with the Jones' and most of my rides are solo rides when the kids decide to take a nap. Its all about exercise and fun for me now, and I find my 26 is exceedingly fun.
    This describes me to a "T", except for the kids napping part (my boys are high-schoolers now). I get pleasure from riding something classic, with enough modern twists on it and personal touches that it keeps me interested and happy.
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  85. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaklabl View Post
    This describes me to a "T", except for the kids napping part (my boys are high-schoolers now). I get pleasure from riding something classic, with enough modern twists on it and personal touches that it keeps me interested and happy.
    I'm right there with you guys as well... small kids, 40, 26er... I've built all my bikes, and I'm no racer I ride by myself, or I'm pulling a trailer with my kids in the back. 26ers work fine for me and there is nothing wrong with any of my bikes. I like that they handle well in twisty technical trails, even if I'm slower, and have to work harder. In fact, I like mountain biking because it is hard and you have to have the skills to ride the bike over rougher terrain. Not getting rid of my Homegrown HT, MotoLite, 575, Ventana Pantera or the LocoMoto.

  86. #486
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    I'll be 47 years old 2 weeks after my third child is born at the end of this coming August. I'm getting back into mountain biking to start getting cardio exercise again and shed some pounds so I can keep up with these kids (1 son is incoming, 1 son is 3 years old, and my daughter will be 18 this year). Otherwise I'll be the lethargic old guy in his late 50's or early 60's when these boys are teenagers. I always used to need to be on top of the tech game with the latest & greatest toys but now priorities have changed. I enjoy things that have been with me for years or decades more than the latest & greatest shiny new toys. My Super V has been in a state of disassembly for weeks now and I need to get it back together so I can get riding!

  87. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegill View Post
    I'll be 47 years old 2 weeks after my third child is born at the end of this coming August. I'm getting back into mountain biking to start getting cardio exercise again and shed some pounds so I can keep up with these kids (1 son is incoming, 1 son is 3 years old, and my daughter will be 18 this year). Otherwise I'll be the lethargic old guy in his late 50's or early 60's when these boys are teenagers. I always used to need to be on top of the tech game with the latest & greatest toys but now priorities have changed. I enjoy things that have been with me for years or decades more than the latest & greatest shiny new toys. My Super V has been in a state of disassembly for weeks now and I need to get it back together so I can get riding!
    Totally agree on the tried and true comment... and same here, I ride the bikes I have to get myself in shape, I'm not racing anyone, just trying to improve myself. Everything on my bikes works, there is no need for me to get any of the latest gadgets... and in any case they wouldn't even fit my bikes anymore. I did get several spare 26er parts when they were cheap to stock up... so I'll be good for a while. I'm hopeful that my 2 girls (2 and 6) will want to go riding on the trail with me... we shall see.

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    I've read through a bunch of these responses and one thing I haven't seen mentioned nearly as much is how most of the former "standards" that were in play during the end of the 26 era have also gone away. I have 2 bikes in 26", a 93 WTB Phoenix and an 08 Turner 5.spot. It's nearly impossible to replace the fork on eaither bike, 1 because it's a 1" steerer and cantilevers and the other because it's a 1 1/8" straight steerer. I never imagined that in just 10 years a bike could go from the top of the line to a dinosaur.

    Other things....tire choices, rim choices, axle standards, etc etc etc

  89. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by g60vw View Post
    I have 2 bikes in 26", a 93 WTB Phoenix and an 08 Turner 5.spot. It's nearly impossible to replace the fork on eaither bike, 1 because it's a 1" steerer and cantilevers and the other because it's a 1 1/8" straight steerer. I never imagined that in just 10 years a bike could go from the top of the line to a dinosaur.
    The bike industry must be loving it. I've a friend in the same boat, whose $3500 bike will be nothing but a boat anchor once his current fork is done. He'd love to upgrade, but he's SOL because everything today is tapered.

  90. #490
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    Rocking my 26" Scott Spark, but with 650b wheels. 1 1/8 fork Dt swiss 150mm fork with launch control, dream bike!

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  91. #491
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    Thats the thing getting parts. I recently wanted to get some rim brake wheels...ugh that was a pain.

    People say that you can still get this or that...and yes you can, if you look at the bottom end of the craptastic market, but I really don't want to put a low end boat anchor fork or some cheep heavy flexy rims on my top end frame that I love to bits, I want the good stuff.
    You have to like hit up ebay for NOS that may or may be legit, or go 2nd hand which could get you something good, or get you someone else's old crap that needs a rebuild more than the stuff you're replacing.
    On top of in these parts of the world, either people figure out early that there was going to be a demand for old parts, or they just wanted top dollar from the start, but stuff ain't cheap.
    All the gear and no idea.

  92. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    People say that you can still get this or that...and yes you can, if you look at the bottom end of the craptastic market...
    I understand your point but the situation is not completely unreasonable. For example the rim-brake rims you're looking for, rim brakes have not been used on hi-end mountain bikes for a long time. What are you talking, over ten years? A lot of consumer products are no longer supported at that sort of age and many people would consider it a reasonable life span.

    I hate waste myself and try to keep things running for as long as possible but it's hard to be too annoyed at the manufacturer for not making components that few people still want to buy. A few years ago Fox did a run of 26'' straight steerer forks with current tech in them specifically for guys like us. They were not cheap and I did wonder if they sold them all at full price. Most people with older 26'' bikes would not sink top money into a fork for them.

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    Fox still lists a couple 26" forks, with straight steerers and even old school QRs, but they're in the neighborhood of $8-900. From my research for my Turner, I can rebuild my King front hub from QR to 15mm TA, which would help a lot with how flexy it is, but still, would be into that swap for well over a grand and the rear end would still be a noodle, it's still a 9spd rear, so many outdated and un-supported parts. So now I'm looking at used newer, bikes because my money will go a lot further.

    I don't know if any of you guys are into Fat Bikes at all, but they have gone through this big time over the last 10 years. Basically from birth, and now through 3-5 different hub "standards" and they have settled on 150/197.....for now.....
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  94. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by g60vw View Post
    Fox still lists a couple 26" forks, with straight steerers and even old school QRs, but they're in the neighborhood of $8-900..
    So, cost more than just about any bike you might put them on is worth?

  95. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by g60vw View Post
    Fox still lists a couple 26" forks, with straight steerers and even old school QRs, but they're in the neighborhood of $8-900. From my research for my Turner, I can rebuild my King front hub from QR to 15mm TA, which would help a lot with how flexy it is, but still, would be into that swap for well over a grand and the rear end would still be a noodle, it's still a 9spd rear, so many outdated and un-supported parts. So now I'm looking at used newer, bikes because my money will go a lot further.

    ....
    I have seen those Fox forks too but at $900 I ruled them out due to cost. It was just throwing money away i thought. I am now keeping an eye on Ebay but so far nothing. I think I am now leaning towards just buying newer used bike just for the ease of finding parts. It just sucks because minus the crappy fork I have, the rest of my bike is in decent shape.

  96. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    Thats the thing getting parts. I recently wanted to get some rim brake wheels...ugh that was a pain.

    People say that you can still get this or that...and yes you can, if you look at the bottom end of the craptastic market, but I really don't want to put a low end boat anchor fork or some cheep heavy flexy rims on my top end frame that I love to bits, I want the good stuff.
    You have to like hit up ebay for NOS that may or may be legit, or go 2nd hand which could get you something good, or get you someone else's old crap that needs a rebuild more than the stuff you're replacing.
    On top of in these parts of the world, either people figure out early that there was going to be a demand for old parts, or they just wanted top dollar from the start, but stuff ain't cheap.
    I just built a GT Zaskar carbon 100 less than 2 years ago and just replaced the front fork with a new 2014 Fox Talas 32 tapered steerer 15mm through axle got delivered yesterday and paid 310 bucks. I only run it in the 120mm travel mode because that's the max the frame is speced to but if I build another All mountain rig I can use this fork and run it in the 150mm travel they are all over on eBay seriously. High end wheels are all over the place as well if you know the brands your looking for my wheels are sram rise 60 carbons got the set new on ebay. This entire bike was built will all new full xtr and weighs in at 25 lbs as it sits. The frame was new as well.
    The wheel set is the stiffest carbon wheels I have ever ridden on a mountain bike. I also built up a new trek 9.9 elite ssl with full xtr and new carbon triple x lite wheels and a brand new rockshox world cup xx with carbon steerer all off of eBay bike weighs 21 lbs as it sits. Both these frames were new in the box and so were the wheels.
    These bikes in there current build from Trek and GT retailed for over 7,000 dollars a piece I built them both for less than that with no used parts anywhere. If you got the legs for it the hardtail accelerates like a rocket the frame is unbelievablely stiff. The GT is very stiff as well. Still no regrets and I couldn't be happier with how these bike turned out. I still need to clean up the cables on the trek I just haven't had time having too much fun riding it.
    Thing is your going to have to still pay the wheels on my trek were 3000 dollars new back in the day I paid 700 for the set. Same with the rise 60 wheels they were around 3000 as well and I paid 750 for the set. There are loads of 100mm to 150mm travel forks either used or new take offs never ridden for under 400 dollars you just need to look better. Out off all these parts I bought off eBay I didn't get burned once. Use common sense and don't buy anything you can't return in a certain time frame.
    Get the shock go to fox website and look up the serial number to verify it's a legit fork. That's what I did because fox made a lot of great changes to the talas in 2014 it was kind of crappy the year prior. I was able to verify through fox and see that it is in fact a a 2014 Talas.

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  97. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I understand your point but the situation is not completely unreasonable. For example the rim-brake rims you're looking for, rim brakes have not been used on hi-end mountain bikes for a long time. What are you talking, over ten years? A lot of consumer products are no longer supported at that sort of age and many people would consider it a reasonable life span.

    I hate waste myself and try to keep things running for as long as possible but it's hard to be too annoyed at the manufacturer for not making components that few people still want to buy. A few years ago Fox did a run of 26'' straight steerer forks with current tech in them specifically for guys like us. They were not cheap and I did wonder if they sold them all at full price. Most people with older 26'' bikes would not sink top money into a fork for them.
    Oh yeah I completely understand (more of a grumpy rant), it's frustrating to me, but I understand that companies arne't going to make top end stuff for a market that doesn't exist...I just wish they would...just for me.
    All the gear and no idea.

  98. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike24 View Post
    I just built a GT Zaskar carbon 100 less than 2 years ago and just replaced the front fork with a new 2014 Fox Talas 32 tapered steerer 15mm through axle got delivered yesterday and paid 310 bucks. I only run it in the 120mm travel mode because that's the max the frame is speced to but if I build another All mountain rig I can use this fork and run it in the 150mm travel they are all over on eBay seriously. High end wheels are all over the place as well if you know the brands your looking for my wheels are sram rise 60 carbons got the set new on ebay. This entire bike was built will all new full xtr and weighs in at 25 lbs as it sits. The frame was new as well.
    The wheel set is the stiffest carbon wheels I have ever ridden on a mountain bike. I also built up a new trek 9.9 elite ssl with full xtr and new carbon triple x lite wheels and a brand new rockshox world cup xx with carbon steerer all off of eBay bike weighs 21 lbs as it sits. Both these frames were new in the box and so were the wheels.
    These bikes in there current build from Trek and GT retailed for over 7,000 dollars a piece I built them both for less than that with no used parts anywhere. If you got the legs for it the hardtail accelerates like a rocket the frame is unbelievablely stiff. The GT is very stiff as well. Still no regrets and I couldn't be happier with how these bike turned out. I still need to clean up the cables on the trek I just haven't had time having too much fun riding it.
    Thing is your going to have to still pay the wheels on my trek were 3000 dollars new back in the day I paid 700 for the set. Same with the rise 60 wheels they were around 3000 as well and I paid 750 for the set. There are loads of 100mm to 150mm travel forks either used or new take offs never ridden for under 400 dollars you just need to look better. Out off all these parts I bought off eBay I didn't get burned once. Use common sense and don't buy anything you can't return in a certain time frame.
    Get the shock go to fox website and look up the serial number to verify it's a legit fork. That's what I did because fox made a lot of great changes to the talas in 2014 it was kind of crappy the year prior. I was able to verify through fox and see that it is in fact a a 2014 Talas.

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    Yeah sure...but really you're talking recent standards there, you carbon wheels won't work well with rim brakes and the tapered steerer wont fit a regular 1-1/8 headtube...
    But you're right there are things to be had, from stores and ebay...especially 2 years ago, less now. And I have used both to get lots of gear. Got my Marzocchi forks 1/2 price, same with my AMclassic wheels and I think I got the last Manitou R7 80mm rim brake fork NOS on the planet for not much..
    So it's not that suff doesn't exist, just that it getting harder and harder, especially if you dont live in the US
    All the gear and no idea.

  99. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    ..I understand that companies aren't going to make top end stuff for a market that doesn't exist...I just wish they would...just for me.
    Well they might, but if they do it'll cost you a fortune!

  100. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    Thats the thing getting parts. I recently wanted to get some rim brake wheels...ugh that was a pain.

    People say that you can still get this or that...and yes you can, if you look at the bottom end of the craptastic market, but I really don't want to put a low end boat anchor fork or some cheep heavy flexy rims on my top end frame that I love to bits, I want the good stuff.
    You have to like hit up ebay for NOS that may or may be legit, or go 2nd hand which could get you something good, or get you someone else's old crap that needs a rebuild more than the stuff you're replacing.
    On top of in these parts of the world, either people figure out early that there was going to be a demand for old parts, or they just wanted top dollar from the start, but stuff ain't cheap.
    Took me 2 minutes of searching eBay found a brand new rim brake wheel set XTR 970 rim brake tubeless 9 speed wheels 948.00 bucks plus 60 shipping yikes that's steep for those wheels but they are top of the line just like you looking for. Also found a load more of nice rim brake wheel sets as well.

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  101. #501
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    Manitou and XFusion make 26" forks with straight steerers at reasonable prices.

  102. #502
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    would you be interested in a 2010 Marzocchi 55 RC3 ti w/ an Avalanche cartridge, straight 1/8 steerer?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brodino View Post
    I have seen those Fox forks too but at $900 I ruled them out due to cost. It was just throwing money away i thought. I am now keeping an eye on Ebay but so far nothing. I think I am now leaning towards just buying newer used bike just for the ease of finding parts. It just sucks because minus the crappy fork I have, the rest of my bike is in decent shape.
    breezy shade

  103. #503
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    It's been a good long time since I posted my feelings about my 26" AMHT vs my 29+ AMHT...I did a head to head review elsewhere, but since my thread here popped back up, I thought I'd do a long term review follow-up.

    When I first bought my Stache, my intention was to keep it stock. I've never kept a bike stock, so I don't know why I thought I could do it this time, hehehe. The Stache now is built very similar to the Komodo regarding fork travel, wheelset, BB height, CS length. I still love riding my 26, but I'll let my review do the rest of the talking:



    I did an "Apples to Apples" (mangos to squash) comparison today of the 2005 vs 2017 in the hardtail mountain bike world.



    26? What's the point??!!-1198941d1526822865-26-staunch-hold-out-clown-wheels-img_20180518_182251264-picsay.jpg
    Subject 1: 2005 Freeride Hardtail (which today translates as "All Mountain Hardtail")

    28.5#, Hope Stans wheelset, 32x150mm Rockshox Sektor fork 1x10 drivetrain, 26x2.4" tires, disc brakes.
    68' head angle, 425mm chainstays, 625mm effective top tube




    26? What's the point??!!-1198942d1526822947-26-staunch-hold-out-clown-wheels-img_20180518_163702248_tojp-picsay.jpg
    Subject 2: 2017 Trek Stache All Mountain Hardtail

    28.75#, Hope Arc wheelset, 35x140mm Rockshox Yari fork, 1x11 drivetrain, 29x3" tires, disc brakes.
    68' head angle, 420mm chainstays, 624 effective top tube.




    26? What's the point??!!-1198943d1526823007-26-staunch-hold-out-clown-wheels-img_20170812_164312302-picsay.jpg
    On paper, they look very similar except for the obvious wheel size difference. Almost like you altered one to fit the wheels of the other.

    Same 6-8mi trail, same direction. Very technical in places, pretty steep in places.

    Results: What a difference 12 years of technology makes. You'd think the only difference would be the ability of the 29x3 to roll over bumps, and the acceleration of the little 26x2.4 bike in the flats and smooth climbs, but I assure you...it goes much deeper than that.

    There's really nothing Komodo tackles that the Stache doesn't do better. The clown-wheeled bike moters up to speed very quickly on the trail & handles just as nimble but much more stable. Comfortably climbs where the Komodo spins out or runs out of gas, (comfort issue) obviously tackles technical terrain without trying, whereas the Komodo's pilot must carefully choose his lines as not to destroy the nice wheelset or veer off trail.

    There are sections that I clean on the Stache 100% of the time that I've never cleaned on my 26.

    Every time I get ready to ride, it gets harder and harder to pull the Komodo down off the wall. It's still a fun ride, but what a difference!

    26? What's the point??!!-1198940d1526822801-26-staunch-hold-out-clown-wheels-collagemaker_20180518_201056206-picsay.jpg

    With the new Hope / Arc wheelset on the Stache, there's really no real life trail difference regarding how quickly it gets up to speed in comparison.

    It climbs any trail with less effort, carves any curves more fun, descends and drops with more confidence.



    26" will still get ridden. I still love my Kinesis baby. But as a long term 26" staunch hold-out... I'll eat Crow and say it is inferior in every way.

    Though I still ride it.
    26? What's the point??!!-img_20180527_203452375-picsay.jpg
    Last edited by chelboed; 07-05-2018 at 10:41 AM.

  104. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike24 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    Thats the thing getting parts. I recently wanted to get some rim brake wheels...ugh that was a pain.

    People say that you can still get this or that...and yes you can, if you look at the bottom end of the craptastic market, but I really don't want to put a low end boat anchor fork or some cheep heavy flexy rims on my top end frame that I love to bits, I want the good stuff.
    You have to like hit up ebay for NOS that may or may be legit, or go 2nd hand which could get you something good, or get you someone else's old crap that needs a rebuild more than the stuff you're replacing.
    On top of in these parts of the world, either people figure out early that there was going to be a demand for old parts, or they just wanted top dollar from the start, but stuff ain't cheap.

    Took me 2 minutes of searching eBay found a brand new rim brake wheel set XTR 970 rim brake tubeless 9 speed wheels 948.00 bucks plus 60 shipping yikes that's steep for those wheels but they are top of the line just like you looking for. Also found a load more of nice rim brake wheel sets as well.
    what i was meaning is that they don't make that stuff any more except at the bottom end...which is totally understandable, you don't stay in business catering to ultra niche markets just to keep me happy, although I'd like it if they did.
    And yes I buy heaps of ebay, but when the major supply is on the other side of the planet, then hings become an issue, dodgy sellers, issues where you might have to send stuff back, makes you 2nd guess everything.
    Just saying, 10 years ago there was so much stuff around it was easy, 5 years, less stuff, 2 years even less, now less again. Now I don't need anything right now, I'e gotten pretty much what I need for the moment, but in 5 years time? I'm sure there will be stuff around, or at least I hope.
    All the gear and no idea.

  105. #505
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    Well I'll throw in my $.02... I rode in the late 90s/early 00s on a stump jumper 26er. Then came a long stretch where I didn't mtb at all. Early last year I test rode (and ultimately bought) a used '08 Surly KM 29er. I d4mn near flooded the basement when I first rode this thing. I was truly impressed.

    To give a background, I AM a retrogrouch. I drive a stick shift truck, ride a 1975 Honda motorcycle and I don't give verbal commands to my electronic devices. So this isn't coming from a trend-chaser by any stretch of the imagination.

    I then pulled out the old stumpy some months later (that had been sitting in storage for years) and gave it a spin. It somehow all of a sudden felt small to me. Then again, I built up a 26er touring bike (surly LHT) two years back and that feels soooo fun to ride (not on technical stuff, but on roads and gravel).

    So I guess what I've concluded is the 29ers CAN be bad a$$. And 26ers can be bad a$$. It's never apples-to-apples because two bikes with two different wheel sizes are automatically geometrically dis-similar to begin with.

    You can most definitely count me in the save-the-26ers camp. But I'll stop short of bashing the 29ers. Yea sure, the bike industry is about making money. But 29ers have their place.

    I'm still not so sure of my stance on 650b, as I've yet to try one, but my sense is I prefer a bike to be brilliant in certain aspects rather than mediocre in all of them (i.e. give me killer rollover or killer nimble-ness, not a compromise in both)

    I'm also going to throw in the previously echoed prediction that 26ers, and 2" tires for that matter, make one hell of a comeback, likely by 2025. It's like horror movies - they're in they're out. they're in they're out.

  106. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by MudSnow View Post
    In one of the most scientifically done comparisons of wheel size, done by world cup racers, 29ers were faster than 26ers by much less than half of 1% over a course several miles long.

    This is a car video, but it shows how two completely different vehicles with different strengths become very evenly matched by a mixture of track features.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIggM65KBRk
    Slightly older post but I like it still the same.

    I get tired of the word 'technology' being thrown around so much in the biking industry. Going from 26 to 29 or 27.5 is a change in sizing, not technology.

    I'm 5'8" and ride a 26 still. My friend is 6'4" and rides a 29. Neither bike is better than the other, they just fit the individual better.

    I ride 29s and I go slower. Not because of 'technology' but because it doesn't fit me as well. I feel I'm on a horse and don't perform the same.
    For me, it's not as nimble and I don't climb as well. My friend was slower on a 26 because it felt like a kids bike. It didn't accommodate his large frame. If someone does better on a 29 vs a 26 or visa versa, it's because the bike now fits their size and build better which is the most important factor. When they post these reviews, they need to post their height as well because it is a huge factor. I don't care what you ride as long as it fits.

    True bike tech or engineering is going to a new material like carbon or building something just as strong, durable, or rigid but in a lighter weight. Size change is not.

    In my riding experience of 25+ years, I've seen a lot of BS. The only reason changes are made in most components is so that the bike industry can sell new bikes, components or parts. In addition, the 'technology' hasn't changed much at all. Bikes still weigh 27-30lbs. Still get flat tires, taco'd wheels, warped rims or brake rotors, shocks that blow out or lock up. This one is faster, this one is lighter, this one is more rigid, this one will make you breakfast in the morning... It's all BS that the fools still soak up. Mean while, I'm still kicking everyone's ass on my '98 26" FS.

    I remember the bashing, flaming and trolling when gearing went from 3x8 to 3x9. It's better because A,B, and C. Now those same guys are arguing why 9-gears are better than 10 or 11! Just stupid getting sucked into what BS the manufacturers are trying to spin to their clients.

    And now here we go, full circle. I'm building up an old 26" for my son who has just started to outgrow his BMX bike, which BTW, he could smoke a lot of his friends on because it fit him well while they all had large 27.5" - 29" bikes their dads were told were great but are too big for them to control. Interesting that the majority of the components we're using are very similar to a 'new 26' that MTBR just published an article about - Cleary Bikes Scout 26” and 24” kid’s bikes - Mountain Bike Review- Mtbr.com
    Last edited by Neuner; 07-06-2018 at 05:52 AM.
    'Things you own...begin owning you.'

  107. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    pilot must carefully choose his lines as not to destroy the nice wheelset or veer off trail.
    This is why I love mountain biking. Learned on the technical east coast trails, and the challenge of making it on a difficult section was and is the appeal that brings me back. I get it, that for some it is speed, comfort, ease that matter more... but there are many ways of enjoying mountain biking (it has always been that way). It's just sad that the industry started to dictate what this sport should be like.

  108. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    It's just sad that the industry started to dictate what this sport should be like.

    I agree totally with you. Except nobody is forcing us to buy the new bikes. If people like me didn't buy the 29er etc then it would die off like so many 'new' & better' products that industry/retailers try to sell. I remember when digital watches came out. Now look they are only the mass market 20 watches. Analogue rules still on the expensive watches. And analogue still holds a large market share on lower price watches. The watch buyers didn't want digital. Other products have the same war, records, CD's and now downloads.
    Are mtb buyers different? Weren't they happy with 26er? I was and am very happy with 26'' wheels. Hopefully the 26er will make a return to mass market as before. It is the best wheel size for a mtb.

  109. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    It's just sad that the industry started to dictate what this sport should be like.
    I kinda thought they always did?

  110. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I kinda thought they always did?
    Yup, at least as long as I've been around which has been a long time.


    I'm like Emax in that I enjoy the technical riding. I think of mountain biking as fast-hiking which most of the time includes technical routes. I'm out for the scenery and the experience, not just trying to go as fast as I can all the time although I can tear it up when I need to. This is what has made finding riding partners so hard. Every one of them that I've either met up with or introduced to the sport has turned into a racer. They go around all of the obstacles in an effort to be as fast as they can. Even widening a trail to avoid simple roots!! Later arguing about the 'technological' advances of their bikes...

    Now that I've gotten my son interested, all of his buddies are trying to get him to race, have a certain bike and wear specific clothing/helmet. Again, frustrating.
    'Things you own...begin owning you.'

  111. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuner View Post
    In my riding experience of 25+ years, I've seen a lot of BS. The only reason changes are made in most components is so that the bike industry can sell new bikes, components or parts. In addition, the 'technology' hasn't changed much at all. Bikes still weigh 27-30lbs. Still get flat tires, taco'd wheels, warped rims or brake rotors, shocks that blow out or lock up. This one is faster, this one is lighter, this one is more rigid, this one will make you breakfast in the morning... It's all BS that the fools still soak up. Mean while, I'm still kicking everyone's ass on my '98 26" FS.
    When I recently got back into the mountain bike scene I was really amazed at how much things have changed since I exited in the early-mid 2000s. Twenty-nine inch and 27.5 wheels, through-axles with multiple spacing, boost axles, the tapered vs straight steerer debate, 1X drivetrains, 42T rear cassettes, etc. Then I really looked into it and realized the big differences in frame geometry. I think it's a combination of technological advancement at the highest levels (actual for-profit sponsored racing) and good old marketing and capitalism. If you keep introducing newer and betterer pieces and parts then they'll keep sending you their money. The truly clever changes are the axle sizes because then you need to buy a new set of wheels while you're at it. If you don't then you risk instant death with last year's old axle size...as if any sport rider is even remotely affected by the typical axle stiffness.

    There are "kids" that now equate a pre-2015 mountain bike to a 1950s Schwinn. Dude, you gotta buy a new bike. You need a 29er with boost spacing and 150 mm travel or you're gonna die on the trails, man. I set out on a little experiment to see if I could upgrade my ancient-history 1998 Cannondale. I now have nearly all new, modern, technology on my caveman bike. I avoided a lot of hassle by keeping the Headshok but even that upgrade to a modern fork could be done with enough effort.

    I'll get around to buying a new or gently used 2017 or 2018 full suspension frame and build it up just to see what it's like, but I think the end result will be more hype than reality.

  112. #512
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    I tell ya what's the shiz on a 26". Wheelies, manuals, nose manuals. All forms of trialling, street riding tomfoolery.
    My old school dmr trailstar is such a wheelie ing feind!

  113. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I kinda thought they always did?
    I don't think that's true. It took years for the industry to settle on the steerer/head tube diameter... but since the 31.8 handlebar diameter, to me it seems like we're being just fed new products. I never remember anyone complaining that 25.4mm diameter is too flexible - yet all the manufacturers switched to 31.8mm in a very short amount of time... I used to work in a bike shop and I never remember anyone saying: "gee.. mister I wish that handlebar was 31.8mm"... The problem I'm having with these changes is that these days the old standards are being abandoned for the new. And this is after a ton of bikes in old standard have been sold. Even in road bikes the industry is pushing for disc brakes - which make no sense on the road bike, but it clearly shows that the industry now makes a product, and the uses clever marketing techniques to sell it. They have the data that helps them to do that. I've stopped reading cycling magazines, because it's just a love-fest - everything being tested is great. The saddest part is that we as consumers are the losers - I look at some of the bikes out there and the prices are just crazy $6-$7k and you're getting a 27 pound bike... I'm not a weight weenie, but it just seems like someone is trying to trick me... just like when cnc purple everything was so great until it cracked and broke.

  114. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    It took years for the industry to settle on the steerer/head tube diameter... but since the 31.8 handlebar diameter, to me it seems like we're being just fed new products. I never remember anyone complaining that 25.4mm diameter is too flexible - yet all the manufacturers switched to 31.8mm in a very short amount of time... I used to work in a bike shop and I never remember anyone saying: "gee.. mister I wish that handlebar was 31.8mm"..
    I agree. I preferred 25.4 because you had much more room for light brackets etc. There was nothing wrong with that size. I also totally agree that the industry is pushing unnecessary change on us at a ridiculous pace, probably because advances in design and manufacturing speed allow them to, but I still think they always dictated what bikes we got. They came up with the bikes and tech then sold it to us. I don't think the game has changed at all, only the pace of it.

  115. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    I never remember anyone complaining that 25.4mm diameter is too flexible - yet all the manufacturers switched to 31.8mm in a very short amount of time... I used to work in a bike shop and I never remember anyone saying: "gee.. mister I wish that handlebar was 31.8mm"...

    I don't remember anyone complaining that 1" steer tubes were too flexible, or that quill stems were a problem, or square taper bb's, etc, etc. Seriously, never. Most improvements are incremental and are only realized in hindsight.

    From an engineering standpoint 31.8 makes more sense, and so do disc brakes on road bikes.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  116. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I don't remember anyone complaining that 1" steer tubes were too flexible, or that quill stems were a problem, or square taper bb's, etc, etc.
    Quill stems are shite! Come on, ahead-sets are so much better it's not funny. The thing about 31.8 bars is that I cannot see any actual advantage in the real world. The added strength is not needed, the extra weight is not welcome and being able to fit lights would be nice. I still remember cursing as I tried to clamp stuff to the tapered section of 31.8 bars. Seriously, how are they better?

  117. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Quill stems are shite! Come on, ahead-sets are so much better it's not funny. The thing about 31.8 bars is that I cannot see any actual advantage in the real world. The added strength is not needed, the extra weight is not welcome and being able to fit lights would be nice. I still remember cursing as I tried to clamp stuff to the tapered section of 31.8 bars. Seriously, how are they better?
    So you can go buy a new stem to work with it. Now they've not only sold you a "new and improved" handlebar, but also a stem to go with it.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  118. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Quill stems are shite! Come on, ahead-sets are so much better it's not funny. The thing about 31.8 bars is that I cannot see any actual advantage in the real world. The added strength is not needed, the extra weight is not welcome and being able to fit lights would be nice. I still remember cursing as I tried to clamp stuff to the tapered section of 31.8 bars. Seriously, how are they better?
    Good thing they aren't doing 35mm bars yet...

  119. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Seriously, how are they better?
    Because a wider diameter bar can be built both stronger and lighter. How are they worse? Aside from your light bracket conundrum that is.


    Of course in 'retro'spect quill stems are inferior but until aheadsets became the norm (took about a year) no one, not even you Mr. Pig, realized it.

    All the old retro parts were skinny, fat is better!
    I brake for stinkbugs

  120. #520
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    I find my handlebars plenty stiff as it is honestly. I worry about trying 35 bc I already get sore hands from my thomson bar. Something that doesn't happen on my enve bar.
    Looking for a Medium Scott Scale frame, preferably a 2012 in 26.

  121. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Because a wider diameter bar can be built both stronger and lighter. How are they worse? Aside from your light bracket conundrum that is.


    Of course in 'retro'spect quill stems are inferior but until aheadsets became the norm (took about a year) no one, not even you Mr. Pig, realized it.

    All the old retro parts were skinny, fat is better!
    Na, everybody knew quill stems were crap...that and the locknut headsets and threaded forks, it was all bad, having to adjust them, swapping anything...it was all just crap, everyone complained about them, all the time, but what else was there? Nothing, along comes threadless, bingo, solve all the issues with no real down side.
    Whereas 25.4 bars,everyone one was happy, but now 31.8 because it's "better"..er OK sure, can I have a new stem with that please.
    One was a step change to a different and much better system, the other is a tiny increment that may or may not actually have any benefit.

    And I'm not saying 31.8 bars are bad in themselves, they're just a std bar now, it's just that companies don't make 25.4 anymore,so when it comes to retire my current bar, it's either buy 2nd hand, hit up NOS from ebay, or buy a bar and a stem (already done that on 2 bikes already).
    All the gear and no idea.

  122. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    Na, everybody knew quill stems were crap...that and the locknut headsets and threaded forks, it was all bad, having to adjust them, swapping anything...it was all just crap, everyone complained about them, all the time, but what else was there? Nothing, along comes threadless, bingo, solve all the issues with no real down side.
    There were retro-grouches back then screaming bloody murder because "what the hell's wrong with my 1" quill stem?" and "threads are the real deal bro!" I distinctly remember when people (lots of them) thought index shifting was bullcrap.

    I worked in shops most of my life and almost every "standard" change has been met with resistance. A new stem is about $30. Wider is better
    I brake for stinkbugs

  123. #523
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    What cracks me up about this conversation is that, except for maybe the quill St (and I'm pretty sure I saw that on Universal Cycles), most things that were to of the line when they were produced for 26 are still available. Maybe not the exact model but a reasonable equivalent.

    A couple of years ago, at the age of 44,I got into downhill and decided to buy a DH bike. I went with a 26 2012 Jedi. World cup fork, cane creak shock. Maxxis tires, code brakes, Stan's wheels and saint drive train.

    I've had no problem upgrading/cross-grading parts. Bought NOS wheels (the same ones Cam Zink rides) for $200. Can still get the same Maxxis tires but switched to Magic Mary's. Got new brakes and a newer shock. Rebuild the fork (which is 7 years old at this point) with no difficulty. Handle bars are 31.8 so that's not an issue, but if you're running an older standard and can't afford the stem to go with it, maybe you should look at your saving plan again.

    Yeah. Bikes cost allot. But given the bike is 6 plus years old, from a boutique brand, I wouldn't expect to be supported forever. And 6 to 7 years has to be 18 to 21 in the automotive world. I have a 16 year old car and I don't expect to be able to get current standards for it.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
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  124. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPunchCholla View Post
    Yeah. Bikes cost allot. But given the bike is 6 plus years old, from a boutique brand, I wouldn't expect to be supported forever. And 6 to 7 years has to be 18 to 21 in the automotive world. I have a 16 year old car and I don't expect to be able to get current standards for it.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    I see what youre saying but I think this attitude towards replacing stuff, generally speaking, is, to a high degree, a product of the industrys intentional planned obsolescence. They WANT us to dump our things and buy new ones.

    On the other hand, we as consumers are not entirely innocent, as a whole.

    I can replace anything on My 1975 Honda cb750 motorcycle (albeit not always OEM) because they garnered a very strong following and a lot of folks still own them and upkeep them instead of tossing them for the latest and greatest. Similarly, and for the same reasons, I can get all the support I need for my 2001 toyota pickup.

    On the other hand, maybe quill stems and 25.4 stems are going extinct because everybody bought into the threadless and 31.8 (whether you think theyre better or not)

    Call me crazy, but I love friction shifting 3x9 drivetrains and i fear for their extinction too, if not enough people buy them.

    For now, though there are only a handful of new 26ers being sold, wheels, tires and compatible suspension options are still plentiful. I think that Whether this remains the case depends to a large degree on whether or not folks all dump their 26ers for 29ers or continue to keep their 26ers and replace the relevant components.

    Having said that, Im trying to offload my 26er mountain bike for the simple reason that I want a hard tail, so maybe Im just feeding the monster too.

  125. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I distinctly remember when people (lots of them) thought index shifting was bullcrap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hman0217 View Post
    Call me crazy, but I love friction shifting 3x9 drivetrains and i fear for their extinction too, if not enough people buy them.

    ^See what I mean?
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  126. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    ^See what I mean?
    Lest my meaning be misinterpreted, I DON'T think index shifting is crap. Nor do I frown on its introduction. I just happen to like friction shifting, at least on my commuter and touring bikes. Automatic transmission has far surpassed manual transmission in automobiles. Doesn't mean I can't personally prefer stick shifts.

  127. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    And I'm not saying 31.8 bars are bad in themselves, they're just a std bar now, it's just that companies don't make 25.4 anymore,so when it comes to retire my current bar, it's either buy 2nd hand, hit up NOS from ebay, or buy a bar and a stem (already done that on 2 bikes already).
    I have an older rigid steel SS bike that I still love riding on a regular basis. When new the bike beat the h.ll out of my wrists on rough trails. Changing to a 2.4 front tire (tubeless) + carbon fork helped some but converting from the stock 31.8 bar to 25.4 did far more to improve ride quality. Lack of availability is a concern for me too since I don't plan on ever getting rid of this bike.
    Mole

  128. #528
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    You guys should check out the frame building forum, there's a guy there making wooden bars. Probably could do them in 25.4mm.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  129. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    There were retro-grouches back then screaming bloody murder because "what the hell's wrong with my 1" quill stem?" and "threads are the real deal bro!" I distinctly remember when people (lots of them) thought index shifting was bullcrap.

    I worked in shops most of my life and almost every "standard" change has been met with resistance. A new stem is about $30. Wider is better
    Yeah sure, you're always going to get retrogrouches for everything, heck I am occasionally (always?) one too...but I also like new tech, always have, one of the thing I like about mtbing.
    I just found in the past/old days/whatever, you had big changes periodically and they were for a reason. eg with the quill stems, they worked fine coming from ye oldie days ("worked" they still were a hassle, but they did the job), but with suspension coming along and people actually swapping forks, threadless made much more sense plus was better...also happening was the swap to oversized steerers, coming about due to suspension as well, more load or whatever...also with the influx of more aluminum frames, 1-1/8 was better than 1 inch...although evolution size would have been more better really but I think it might have been a bit early, not so many susp forks and alu frames or whatever reason.

    So about 1994ish you had a big shift, suspension corrected, oversize, threadless, and that lasted as a major standard for like 15? years and an awful lot of stuff was interchangable.

    Then discs, really became a thing in the late 90's, but from around 99 til say 09 most (at least a whole lot) of bikes could run both (maybe somethng the road bike world could take a hint from), so that was another shift, 2010ish no more rim brakes.

    But since then in the lat 8 years (or there abouts, not being picky about timelines, just a general idea) we've had all sorts of changes that are all over the place
    -31.8 bars
    -35 bars
    -29ers
    -27.5
    -fat
    -plus 27.5
    -plus 29
    -through axles
    -142 rear hubs
    -boost

    and i'm sure there are others, were probably up to super boost or something. But each time it renders old stuff obsolete, where in the older times, they didn't. And yes at times you need to have a total shift in whats going on as tech/designs change that much (eg the threadless/oversize switch, or disc only), but if you actually decide on a standard and do it in reasonable time frames, not such an issue, but make big changes every year, its fcked in the head.
    All the gear and no idea.

  130. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik_git View Post
    .....and i'm sure there are others, were probably up to super boost or something. But each time it renders old stuff obsolete

    I guess I just don't see it that way, I've got an old Karate Monkey frame collecting dust in the shed and aside from the 29" wheels and 1 & 1/8 threadless steer tube it's pretty retro. I could buy parts for it and set it up no problem if I wanted but I like my newer bike better.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  131. #531
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    Sorry should have said out of date tech rather than obsolete, if you upgrade bikes every year, or every ten years then you're good to go, but if you want to upgrade you frame every few years, then things will be more interesting if they keep up with all the changes.
    All the gear and no idea.

  132. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    - I look at some of the bikes out there and the prices are just crazy $6-$7k and you're getting a 27 pound bike...

    same here, I have a Kona 100mm double suspension all XT scandium frame from 2010, have a really hard time "upgrading" to newer bikes, because a similar replacement costs 6000$ and its heavier

    I love bigger wheels, slacker head angle, boost spacing... but internal cable routing, dropper seatposts, 1X drivetrains with 400$ cassettes... it seems no one makes old school XC bikes anymore.

    I go to factory demos days and try new bikes, some I would have not been happy at all buying.... RM element is the best and very good, way better than my own 26 no doubt. But too expensive for me at the moment, wish I can some day.

    Still my Kona hei hei 100 is a fantastic ride, I love the range and usability of the 3x9! overall the bike still feels great and fast.

  133. #533
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    Kinda glad I ran across this thread. Im just entering the sport and Im choking at the prices of new bikes. All 27s and 29s of course.

    I think Id rather lay down small bucks for a slightly used 26er. And partly because I wanted to race cruisers after BMX but never did.
    Call me crazy!


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  134. #534
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    All of the wheel sizes available for us to choose from and ride upon are great.

    Riding 26" has become quaint, vintage, retro, and trialsy. Fair enough.

    26 is fun and remains a good way to ride with style.

    One positive aspect is that you sit a little lower, and can get under some stuff, especially with a seat dropper, that you can't on a taller set of wheels.

    Another aspect is that since they are smaller, they can be lighter.

    Yeah I suppose there are some great 26" frames to find, buy, build and ride out there.

    Some titanium hardtail frames with disc brake mounts are floating around out there. I'd consider some of these finds to be among the best out there.

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  135. #535
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    Is that a homegrown?
    Looking for a Medium Scott Scale frame, preferably a 2012 in 26.

  136. #536
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    on the 25.4 handlebars..... I have 620mm wide bars and cant seem to find anything much wider in 25.4......I run lights on my bikes because I am mostly an urban mountain biker and commute to work for more ride time... I ride 26ers because I can keep costs down plus I got my bikes for free or very cheap
    97 specialized rockhopper.- urban beater
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  137. #537
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    Just bought and installed a new 710mm wide 6061 aluminum Soma Odin handlebar with 25.4 center. Did my third ride on this today. Very pleased. FWIW



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  138. #538
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    I made the jump to 31.8 to get wider carbon bars. Went from 640mm to 740mm Renthal Fat Carbon Light. Taking them on first trail ride tomorrow AM.

  139. #539
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    Whats a 29er?

  140. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldBlue950 View Post
    Whats a 29er?

    a large wheel size that is in fashion at the mo. Not better than a 26er.

  141. #541
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    what width you were you on before?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burns View Post
    Just bought and installed a new 710mm wide 6061 aluminum Soma Odin handlebar with 25.4 center. Did my third ride on this today. Very pleased. FWIW



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  142. #542
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    overall, better is for sure a matter of opinion, based probably more on preference. they are definitely more efficient at rollover of equal sized objects. that's a fact of physics. that's one. I believe there are others.
    FWIW, I ride 26
    Quote Originally Posted by wightweenie26er View Post
    a large wheel size that is in fashion at the mo. Not better than a 26er.
    breezy shade

  143. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhodge View Post
    what width you were you on before?
    I threw the Odin 25.4 bar out there because it is 25.4 and 710mm.

    This was installed on a 29er actually, which I recently acquired, and I needed to adjust the cockpit to my liking, and in doing so I actually made a retrospec to a Syncros steel stem with a 25.4 clamp. The bar was chosen to match the stem, and the stem was chosen to match the bike.

    29er bikes are very nice.

    26er bikes are in my stable and are ridden half of the time.

    Bar widths are anywhere from 650 to 720 on the mountain bikes.

    26" bikes are extremely relevant IMHO. Going from one bike to another ensures an outstanding experience on each ride when the terrain is the regular terrain I ride over and over.

    The 26" bike possesses many endearing properties. Others have detailed these properties on this forum.

    Savor the eloquent grammar of the 26" ride. 26" punctuates each ride with the exclamation "follow me!". The other wheel sizes followed.



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  144. #544
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    Ideal wheel size could also be a function of leg length, and the type of riding you do.

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  145. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldBlue950 View Post
    Whats a 29er?
    Quote Originally Posted by wightweenie26er View Post
    a large wheel size that is in fashion at the mo. Not better than a 26er.
    As the author of this thread and a current enthusiast and regular rider of my 26" hardtail, I believe I deserve I little bit of grace for what I'm about to say.

    My Stache is basically the modern 29+ equivalent to my 26'er. Both similar styles of bikes in that they're both All Mountain Hardtails. Both similar head angles, builds, and fork travel...

    ...my Stache is better at absolutely everything than my 26'er. Climbing, descending, level winding through the woods, monster trucking, wheelie dropping...etc...

    I still love to ride my 26'er and do it on a regular basis though.
    26? What's the point??!!-20170609_222658.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 26? What's the point??!!-img_20170528_012930.jpg  


  146. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by bridgestone14 View Post
    Is that a homegrown?
    It's a 26" 853 steel Airborne track end single speed. Sorry, it's a bad photo for the details. I'm not sure of the vintage. Believe it's from around 2000. It has V brakes.


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  147. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    As the author of this thread and a current enthusiast and regular rider of my 26" hardtail, I believe I deserve I little bit of grace for what I'm about to say.

    My Stache is basically the modern 29+ equivalent to my 26'er. Both similar styles of bikes in that they're both All Mountain Hardtails. Both similar head angles, builds, and fork travel...

    ...my Stache is better at absolutely everything than my 26'er. Climbing, descending, level winding through the woods, monster trucking, wheelie dropping...etc...

    I still love to ride my 26'er and do it on a regular basis though.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I hear you. I have a surly krampus that I absolutely love for its go-anywhere attitude. Its simply the diminishing availability of 26ers thats disconcerting.

    For me, I want to start bikepacking and am not a terribly tall fellow, meaning 29er tires dont give me much room above the tires for seat and bar bags. My LHT is a 26er but itd be nice to get mtb geometry for bikepacking.

    luckily, there are still a few options left but it takes us buying them to ensure their survival.

  148. #548
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    I broke my derailleur cable on my Enduro 29 (2017) and "had to take" my old stumpjumper evo 26" the weekend.
    And wow! had forgotten how fun that bike was! It just so fun to handle in tight corners and technical descends, so easy to lift and throw the bike around. With the Enduro you just roll with the bike.

    So now I looking into if I can afford to upgrade the fork and start using it on trail riding and keep the Enduro fr Downhill.

  149. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    As the author of this thread and a current enthusiast and regular rider of my 26" hardtail, I believe I deserve I little bit of grace for what I'm about to say.

    My Stache is basically the modern 29+ equivalent to my 26'er. Both similar styles of bikes in that they're both All Mountain Hardtails. Both similar head angles, builds, and fork travel...

    ...my Stache is better at absolutely everything than my 26'er. Climbing, descending, level winding through the woods, monster trucking, wheelie dropping...etc...

    I still love to ride my 26'er and do it on a regular basis though.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have a Stache 7 as well but also ride my Bontrager Race Lite from time-to-time, and sometimes my OS Blackbuck 29er SS. Although I have had my share of Aluminum and titanium framed bikes I still like steel rigid and hardtail bikes best and the 26" versions will always have a place in my garage. The Stache is comfortable and easy to ride, climbs great, absorbs a lot of shock and handles relatively well. The downside is that even with a tubeless set-up its heavy at 29lbs. Overall I agree with most of what you are saying regarding the benefits of 29+, and 29 and 27.5 for that matter. On tight trails though, I prefer the 26" Bontrager hands-down over the Stache though as it is just a more agile and fun bike for me to ride. Different strokes for different folks though, and not saying my opinion matters but it is my perspective on the same comparison regarding the Stache and thought I would share. Right now I have my Stache up for sale, but not so I can buy some other new higher tech bike with the latest gadgets. I simply haven't enjoyed riding the Stache like I have other bikes. Conversely my Bontrager Race Lite would be much more difficult for me to part with.

  150. #550
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    Sure, 26-inch wheel bikes are fun to ride. So are 27.5 and 29-inch wheel bikes. The 26-er is in no way better than it's newer, larger-wheeled cousins, though most of the difference is due to improved frame geometry on the newer bikes. If you have a 26-er that you enjoy, then great. Go out and ride it and have fun. Just don't pretend that it is a better bike.

  151. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skooks View Post
    The 26-er is in no way better than it's newer, larger-wheeled cousins, though most of the difference is due to improved frame geometry on the newer bikes. Just don't pretend that it is a better bike.
    Professional downhill mountain bikers still use 26" for a reason. They will go over anything bigger or faster than you would or could.
    'Things you own...begin owning you.'

  152. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuner View Post
    Professional downhill mountain bikers still use 26" for a reason. They will go over anything bigger or faster than you would or could.
    yeah...but that is because they are professional...

    a professional mountain biker would ride my 29+ Krampus bigger and faster than me, but not because of the bike....because they are professional.

    and I am not against 26ers...I still ride mine.
    Go practice. Figure it out. - Fleas

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  153. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by sXeXBMXer View Post
    yeah...but that is because they are professional...

    a professional mountain biker would ride my 29+ Krampus bigger and faster than me, but not because of the bike....because they are professional.

    and I am not against 26ers...I still ride mine.
    If you're not Skooks then why did you care what I wrote to him/her? You have a double profile?

    By the way, professionals are who they are for a reason. They choose the best gear for what they do because they are pushing the limits. Sure they can go fast in a 29er, but since it's not the best, they don't.

    Since I'm addressing you, and not Skooks, you may respond...
    'Things you own...begin owning you.'

  154. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuner View Post
    If you're not Skooks then why did you care what I wrote to him/her? You have a double profile?

    By the way, professionals are who they are for a reason. They choose the best gear for what they do because they are pushing the limits. Sure they can go fast in a 29er, but since it's not the best, they don't.

    Since I'm addressing you, and not Skooks, you may respond...
    oh...I may respond.

    Since this is a public forum, people tend to make comments on things in the threads when they want. If you wanted the conversation between you and Skooks to be private, you should PM him. I see by your post count that you are new. You should get used to people here who are going to respond to your posts even if they are not directly addressed to them. It happens a lot....

    ...but, I also see that by your join date you are old...did you forget theways of the forums?

    BTW, if that is your jeep in your avatar, I am jealous...pretty sweet!!
    Go practice. Figure it out. - Fleas

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  155. #555
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    Professional downhill riders still use 26" wheels?
    I brake for stinkbugs

  156. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by sXeXBMXer View Post
    oh...I may respond.

    Since this is a public forum, people tend to make comments on things in the threads when they want. If you wanted the conversation between you and Skooks to be private, you should PM him. I see by your post count that you are new. You should get used to people here who are going to respond to your posts even if they are not directly addressed to them. It happens a lot....

    BTW, if that is your jeep in your avatar, I am jealous...pretty sweet!!
    Nope, not new and not new to forums. No, I don't see a whole lot of others butting in on the many other forums that I belong to with exception for Pirate4x4. That's only because they/we are a bunch of Aholes and know it This one is filled more with a lot of unnecessarily cocky young guys. Older members smart enough to use their old 26ers so one of the reasons I like this section of this forum. At least the ones on Pirate4x4 know what they are doing and not sold on a bunch of marketing BS.

    Thanks - '85 CJ7 with 4.0 and T177 conversion. 4.5"RE lift. Currently wrapping up a rebuild of the T177. Needing to rebuild front dif and dropping in of Aussie Locker, hoping for a shackle reversal soon, needing to drop the tank, and repaint the exterior. Don't be too jealous...
    'Things you own...begin owning you.'

  157. #557
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    I bought my 26er HT because it was cheaper than the other options with bigger wheels. And I suck at trail riding, decent road bike rider - but slow and sucky off road. That is pretty much the honest answer for me.

    I went through a thing with the road bikes when I started riding. Bought an older inexpensive (ish) bike (aluminum and full 105 used but loved) and rode rode rode. Got in with a bike shop and got sucked in to needing the next new awesome stuff with each new bike- carbon this and that and better components. Spent a lot of money and not sure it really "upgraded" that much.

    Sure it was little lighter, rolled a little easier, looked massively better. But I don't race really - just an occasional for fun so what difference did it really make. I like to tinker and spin wrenches though so the idea of upgrading parts is fun.

    So that's what I did. Bought a used and no so loved bike and and upgrading it and loving on it a little bit. And just riding as much as I can to improve my skills and enjoy myself. It hasn't been the cheapest way to go in the long run I am sure but it has been fun and my technical skill is still by far the limiting factor.

  158. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuner View Post
    Professional downhill mountain bikers still use 26" for a reason. They will go over anything bigger or faster than you would or could.
    Really? Which pro DH rider has got on the podium on a 26-er in the last 3 years? Most pro riders switched to 27.5 around 2015, and some race 29ers now. Check out this link:

    https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mt...ace-results/7/

    You wont find 26ers on this list.

    And yes, of course pro DH racers are faster than me. That has nothing to do with wheel size.

  159. #559
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    What I really don't get is the 27.5" size.

    It's like the manufacturers killed 26" and created 27.5" just to be able to sell/start over on a market flooded with good cheap 26" parts.

    I've moved on to 29" since a few months just because my old bike (Rocky Mountain Element) is a late 90's/early-mid 00' build and it was time for something new.

  160. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    What I really don't get is the 27.5" size.

    It's like the manufacturers killed 26" and created 27.5" just to be able to sell/start over on a market flooded with good cheap 26" parts.

    I've moved on to 29" since a few months just because my old bike (Rocky Mountain Element) is a late 90's/early-mid 00' build and it was time for something new.
    27.5 may not be the wheel size for you, but for a lot of people it works very well. I am short and I ride steep, technical trails with a lot of tight corners. The 27.5 wheel is perfect for me. I am not saying that 29ers are no good, and I will likely own one someday, but right now I am really enjoying the smaller wheels

  161. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skooks View Post
    Really? Which pro DH rider has got on the podium on a 26-er in the last 3 years? Most pro riders switched to 27.5 around 2015, and some race 29ers now. Check out this link:

    https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mt...ace-results/7/

    You wont find 26ers on this list.

    And yes, of course pro DH racers are faster than me. That has nothing to do with wheel size.
    As expected, no response from Neuner.

  162. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    What I really don't get is the 27.5" size.

    It's like the manufacturers killed 26" and created 27.5" just to be able to sell/start over on a market flooded with good cheap 26" parts.

    I've moved on to 29" since a few months just because my old bike (Rocky Mountain Element) is a late 90's/early-mid 00' build and it was time for something new.
    26, 27.5, 29. And what about boost 148?

    I've never thought these kinds of changes come about primarily to force people to buy more equipment. But I agree that it does drive more sales.

    As one who rides them all, (except 29+ so far), 26 is still a good format. Going from 29 one day, and 26 the next, or vice versa, even on the same trails, is fine.

    Okay, maybe if it's all about average speed, then 27.5 is faster, and 29 is fastest.

    Here's something I think is a benefit : 27+/29 bikes. Some bikes can be run as 27+ bikes and 29ers with just a wheel change. Each tire size changes the handling.

    Yeah, more tires to sell and buy and wear out.

    My wife rides X-small frames. She has a 29" X-small hardtail that rolls and fits.

    Yeah, they sell more tires.

    Dddddddddddddd3dx,* a lot of 26" tires that need to be used m4



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  163. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skooks View Post
    27.5 may not be the wheel size for you, but for a lot of people it works very well. I am short and I ride steep, technical trails with a lot of tight corners. The 27.5 wheel is perfect for me. I am not saying that 29ers are no good, and I will likely own one someday, but right now I am really enjoying the smaller wheels
    I was just wondering why 27.5 was created when 26 exists? I never ridden 27.5 but I can barely see the difference between 26 and 27.5.

  164. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    I was just wondering why 27.5 was created when 26 exists? I never ridden 27.5 but I can barely see the difference between 26 and 27.5.
    There's a long history that goes back at least to Tom Ritchey in the 1970s: The renaissance of the 650B wheel .

    Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if the plus-sizing thing had happened first. Ritchey and others in the early days were working with 1.75" tires, which are way small in diameter on 26er rims. Get up to 2.6" and wider though, and diameter begins to become reasonable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    I was just wondering why 27.5 was created when 26 exists?
    27.5 - AKA 650b - has existed for a very long time.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    27.5 - AKA 650b - has existed for a very long time.
    Well yes, I know.... but you DO get what I mean right?
    From 26 to 27.5 is a minuscule change. The cynic in me just see it as a way for the manufacturers to start over on basically the same platform. The 26 market got filled and it was time to make some new money.

    29-er is a different story. It is way different from 26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanGennick View Post
    There's a long history that goes back at least to Tom Ritchey in the 1970s: The renaissance of the 650B wheel .

    Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if the plus-sizing thing had happened first. Ritchey and others in the early days were working with 1.75" tires, which are way small in diameter on 26er rims. Get up to 2.6" and wider though, and diameter begins to become reasonable.
    Thx. That's a great read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    Well yes, I know.... but you DO get what I mean right?
    From 26 to 27.5 is a minuscule change. The cynic in me just see it as a way for the manufacturers to start over on basically the same platform. The 26 market got filled and it was time to make some new money.

    29-er is a different story. It is way different from 26.
    The difference is not as extreme as going to 29er, but it is different. Small changes make a difference. Not a huge improvement, but an improvement, IMO.

    I don't really buy the industry conspiracy arguments I often see. Most companies rejected the idea, until it became apparent that very soon they would not be selling many bikes if they did not get on the 650b train. That was them simply responding to the market. Ask Dave Turner (Turner Bikes). for years, the 26" 5-Spot was his best selling bike. But the moment he released the Burner (nearly identical to the 5-Spot, but with 27.5 wheels) it was all he could do to GIVE 5-Spots away. Worked for me, as that is the only reason I could ever afford a 5-Spot. Which I still ride as my main MTB.

    There was never anything magic about 26" or 29". They were just common wheel sizes at the time they were pressed into service for mtb use. One could argue that 650b is the first time a wheel size was chosen strictly on its merits, rather than because it was already common as dirt (as with 26 and 29).
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I don't really buy the industry conspiracy arguments I often see. Most companies rejected the idea, until it became apparent that very soon they would not be selling many bikes if they did not get on the 650b train. That was them simply responding to the market.
    I agree. My memory matches yours. No bicycle brand wants to be stuck with container loads of inventory that won't sell. The big shift came about because "nobody ever got fired for spec'ing 650b".
    Last edited by JonathanGennick; 11-15-2018 at 05:59 AM. Reason: closed a bracket

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    My view on this subject is 'Choice' If i want to buy a 29 then fine, a 650 fine or the 26er. then i can. Talk of killing off one or the other is mad. I remember they said that about analogue watches when the digital came out. Now who is still king? If you pay big money you buy a round face with hands. The cheap give away watches are the digitals. Lucky some companies still make high end 26er kit. Long live Extralite. As i'm happy to ride a 26er. And maybe people will come back after seeing this whole 29er thing as a marketing ploy to sell bikes.

  171. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    From 26 to 27.5 is a minuscule change. The cynic in me just see it as a way for the manufacturers to start over on basically the same platform. The 26 market got filled and it was time to make some new money.
    Yep ^^^
    exactly
    They want to make you believe that you HAVE to buy this new bike/wheels/tyres.
    That how they make their money.

    Here's a photo of my main MTB and My commuter
    The 650 has 1,75 slick the 26 has 2,2 knobby , not a world of difference.
    Same diameter.

    Now when someone tells me that 650 rolls a lot better over obstacles than 26, I kinda find that funny

    I'm not talking 700 wheels but 650.


    26? What's the point??!!-dscn2038.jpg
    Last edited by fokof; 11-19-2018 at 06:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wightweenie26er View Post
    My view on this subject is 'Choice' If i want to buy a 29 then fine, a 650 fine or the 26er. then i can. Talk of killing off one or the other is mad. I remember they said that about analogue watches when the digital came out. Now who is still king? If you pay big money you buy a round face with hands. The cheap give away watches are the digitals. Lucky some companies still make high end 26er kit. Long live Extralite. As i'm happy to ride a 26er. And maybe people will come back after seeing this whole 29er thing as a marketing ploy to sell bikes.
    i beg to differ on the watch thing:

    https://www.timepiece.com/casio-g-sh...yABEgKWpPD_BwE

  173. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    Here's a photo of my main MTB and My commuter
    The 650 has 1,75 slick the 26 has 2,2 knobby , not a world of difference.
    That's why I wonder whether 650b would have taken over so fast had the plus-size trend occurred first. We can't redo history to find out though.

  174. #574
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    Quote Originally Posted by wightweenie26er View Post
    I remember they said that about analogue watches when the digital came out. Now who is still king?



    People still wear watches?
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    Interesting comments... ultimately the big wheel revolution was an industry conspiracy to disrupt the way things were, and make money on it. The bicycle industry is much more consolidated now than they have ever been, and all these "big fish" can lean on others to make things happen. The rest of the smaller players have to go with the flow. To me the unsettling part of what is going on is that there is no one out there who would be willing to build 26ers with "modern" geometry, that would allow folks to swap their old bike components onto the new frame and have a "modern" bike (this is an oversimplification). I'm concerned about the industry's willingness to abandon older technology that not only works - but works well, only to support the new thing. The way they are leaning on racers in the road cycling to use disc brakes is a good example of what I'm talking about here. Discs on a road bike won't make you go faster, but they sure will make servicing your bike a lot harder, and more expensive...

    I admit that I'm not an early adopter, and I loved the 8 speed because it worked great, but then switched to 9 speed and that was fine, though the chain would break more often, then came 11 speed and 2x and 1x and the importance of ratios faded as the range became king... I'm still on my 27 gears and completely happy. I don't even know why people switch to 1x or 2x, front derailleur gets set up once, and that's it - at least on my bikes... my problems will begin as all the parts I'm using start wearing out to the point of having to be replaced - but I've got 7 bikes at least and bunch of spares - so I think I'm set.

  176. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    The way they are leaning on racers in the road cycling to use disc brakes is a good example of what I'm talking about here. Discs on a road bike won't make you go faster, but they sure will make servicing your bike a lot harder, and more expensive...


    Tests have shown that disc brakes can improve downhill times, especially in foul weather. Aside from that they're just better, and ime require very little service.

    There are still lots of frame builders who will make exactly what you want for a reasonable price.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  177. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    Well yes, I know.... but you DO get what I mean right?
    From 26 to 27.5 is a minuscule change. The cynic in me just see it as a way for the manufacturers to start over on basically the same platform. The 26 market got filled and it was time to make some new money.

    29-er is a different story. It is way different from 26.
    There's objective history and then we each have our own perspective. What follows is my perspective.

    The 26" wheel dominated for about three decades. Fisher got behind the 29" wheel and early this century it was like popping a zit -- once it blew, it went all over. Riders, especially taller riders, appreciated a wheel size that offers genuine rollover improvement. And it does.

    But it's not as easy to build a small frame around a bigger wheel. Especially full suspension frames.

    I believe (aka my perspective) the bicycle industry was eager to embrace the 27.5" wheel in part because it solved production problems. The 27.5" wheel allowed bike mfgrs to make long travel frames in small & XS sizes. That and yeah, every time "standards" change, demanding consumers gotta buy new shite. Yet another "new" wheel size? Terrific -- more sales.

    But this was the order -- 26 then 29 then 27.5. It wasn't progressive 26-27.5-29. After small, then big, the industry claimed the mid-size wheel was kinda like Goldilocks. Except it's not like Goldilocks because taller folks are genuinely served better by the largest wheel of the three. For everybody else, there's the 27.5" wheel. 26" is for kids and kid-sized adults.

    Now don't shake your finger at me, I'm not out to intentionally offend anyone. This is simply my opinion. I told you from the beginning you'd get my perspective and that's what you got.
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  178. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    Interesting comments... ultimately the big wheel revolution was an industry conspiracy to disrupt the way things were, and make money on it.
    That's not really a fair characterization. Gary Fisher pushed 29ers because like any other brand he was looking for product differentiation and to sell bicycles. I'm sure it helped that he's a tall guy and personally believed in the larger wheel size. Much of the bike tech I enjoy today derives from that sort of vision and drive.

    To me the unsettling part of what is going on is that there is no one out there who would be willing to build 26ers with "modern" geometry
    Do you want to be stuck with a few container loads of bicycles or frames that won't sell? Do you want to put thousands of dollars of _your_ money on the line to pay for a production run of frames? I like 26er options too, and just built two 26er wheelsets, but I'm not sure that I'd bet my retirement fund on a container load of frames.

  179. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    Discs on a road bike won't make you go faster
    A wise man once said, "If I can STOP faster, then I can GO faster!"
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  180. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    26" is for kids and kid-sized adults.
    I know its your perspective/opinion, but that's not really fair. I'm not kid-sized at 5'8", and 26" wheels are still my preference. Not because I am a luddite, or have my head in the sand, or am throwing some tantrum no one will ever see. I've sold every 29"er I've ever had, and in fact just sold the 27.5" bike I had not because of the wheel size but because it offered me nothing I didn't already have.

    Sure, eventually 26" parts will dwindle even further, and to get what I really like in a frame I will most likely have to get a 27.5" compatible custom built frame - but until them I am content with the wheel size I prefer.

    But to say 26 is only good for kids and kid-sized adults, that's a little shitty.
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  181. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    Interesting comments... ultimately the big wheel revolution was an industry conspiracy to disrupt the way things were, and make money on it.
    Hmmm, I don't think so. I think the less you know or remember about the introduction and adoption of 29" wheels, the more appealing a conspiracy theory is. But in this case it just does not jive with the history of it. The big companies in fact took a long time to adopt the platform. In the beginning it was basically just Gary Fisher, the allways-quietly-ahead-of-the-curve Surly, and a few start up brands like Niner. If I recall correctly, even though Trek owned Gary Fisher Bikes at the time, it took a little while for them to have 29ers in the "Trek" lineup. Specialized would have nothing to do with 29ers until they had no choice, and most of the other big companies were very late to the party as well.

    The bicycle industry is much more consolidated now than they have ever been, and all these "big fish" can lean on others to make things happen.
    Really? How do you figure. There are a LOT of new bike companies that have popped up in the past 20 years, particularly in the MTB market.
    The rest of the smaller players have to go with the flow.
    But in the case of wheel size it started with smaller companies, not the bigger ones.

    To me the unsettling part of what is going on is that there is no one out there who would be willing to build 26ers with "modern" geometry, that would allow folks to swap their old bike components onto the new frame and have a "modern" bike (this is an oversimplification).
    Hey, I totally feel your pain on that. For the past 20 years I have always been able to buy new frames, fork, and tires when something interesting came along without needing a whole new bike. Now the best I can do is going used and buying whatever was cutting edge in 2013.

    But that is not a reason for manufacturers to keep producing stuff few people will buy.

    I'm concerned about the industry's willingness to abandon older technology that not only works - but works well, only to support the new thing.
    By that rationale, we would all still be stuck using canti brakes.

    Just to be clear, I DO think that there are instances where a large companies have used their position to force the adoption of something new that was not an improvement (see my sig). But I don' think wheel size is one of them.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blaklabl View Post
    I know its your perspective/opinion, but that's not really fair. I'm not kid-sized at 5'8", and 26" wheels are still my preference. Not because I am a luddite, or have my head in the sand, or am throwing some tantrum no one will ever see. I've sold every 29"er I've ever had, and in fact just sold the 27.5" bike I had not because of the wheel size but because it offered me nothing I didn't already have.

    Sure, eventually 26" parts will dwindle even further, and to get what I really like in a frame I will most likely have to get a 27.5" compatible custom built frame - but until them I am content with the wheel size I prefer.

    But to say 26 is only good for kids and kid-sized adults, that's a little shitty.
    Sorry if I hurt your feelings, that's not my intent. But I'm entitled to my opinion and my opinion is that 26" wheels are drastically inferior to larger diameter wheels for *someone my size* and *where I ride* and *how I ride.* And yeah, I'll project the same opinion onto the remainder of the off-road riding world regardless of how myopic doing so may be. My opinion is based on my experience and the reason I feel the way I do. I sincerely believe that anyone who'll fit on larger wheels will be better served by them.

    But everyone -- including you & me -- is entitled to their own opinion and I'm not simply being patronizing when I say it's refreshing to find someone who feels as you do, blaklabl. I may disagree but I think the diversity is terrific. I rode 26" wheels for 30 years and enjoyed every mountain bike I ever owned with that wheelsize. Right up until something dramatically better came along.

    Bikes with proper wheelbases (ie: long) are another boon to someone my height (6'2"). Given my center of gravity disadvantage, I need all the help I can get. Wheels that roll over things better plus a frame that helps keep me between the axles -- both really help.

    Meanwhile run what ya brung and hold your head high, blaklabl. We each have to make our own way.
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  183. #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Hmmm, I don't think so. I think the less you know or remember about the introduction and adoption of 29" wheels, the more appealing a conspiracy theory is. But in this case it just does not jive with the history of it. The big companies in fact took a long time to adopt the platform. In the beginning it was basically just Gary Fisher, the allways-quietly-ahead-of-the-curve Surly, and a few start up brands like Niner. If I recall correctly, even though Trek owned Gary Fisher Bikes at the time, it took a little while for them to have 29ers in the "Trek" lineup. Specialized would have nothing to do with 29ers until they had no choice, and most of the other big companies were very late to the party as well.



    Really? How do you figure. There are a LOT of new bike companies that have popped up in the past 20 years, particularly in the MTB market.

    But in the case of wheel size it started with smaller companies, not the bigger ones.



    Hey, I totally feel your pain on that. For the past 20 years I have always been able to buy new frames, fork, and tires when something interesting came along without needing a whole new bike. Now the best I can do is going used and buying whatever was cutting edge in 2013.

    But that is not a reason for manufacturers to keep producing stuff few people will buy.



    By that rationale, we would all still be stuck using canti brakes.

    Just to be clear, I DO think that there are instances where a large companies have used their position to force the adoption of something new that was not an improvement (see my sig). But I don' think wheel size is one of them.
    whew, a long thread! Companies can try and change standards for profit or real improvements but if we dont buy it, it dies, usually quickly. Many examples of this in all areas. Ford tried to come up with a new wheel/tire standard with a tire company. They put it on some cars but it failed badly leaving some owners to buy new wheels some years later. I must say the 29 works much better than the 26 which I rode since 1988. My most serious injury came when I was on a 10% grade going around a hairpin when I encountered a huge root that stopped my bike cold. I impaled myself on a small broken tree and took almost 1 year to be able to walk without pain. I now go over that root with the 29 and my gearing now with a 42 out back together makes that root melt away. So yes, there have been soooooo many improvements in this sport that makes it safer and more fun. It may cause us to give away the old stuff and buy new to take advantage of these improvements. I am moving to 12 speed when it comes in Di2. Costly but awesome.

  184. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    The difference is not as extreme as going to 29er, but it is different. Small changes make a difference. Not a huge improvement, but an improvement, IMO.

    I don't really buy the industry conspiracy arguments I often see. Most companies rejected the idea, until it became apparent that very soon they would not be selling many bikes if they did not get on the 650b train. That was them simply responding to the market. Ask Dave Turner (Turner Bikes). for years, the 26" 5-Spot was his best selling bike. But the moment he released the Burner (nearly identical to the 5-Spot, but with 27.5 wheels) it was all he could do to GIVE 5-Spots away. Worked for me, as that is the only reason I could ever afford a 5-Spot. Which I still ride as my main MTB.

    There was never anything magic about 26" or 29". They were just common wheel sizes at the time they were pressed into service for mtb use. One could argue that 650b is the first time a wheel size was chosen strictly on its merits, rather than because it was already common as dirt (as with 26 and 29).
    650b came to us via happenstance just like 26" and 29". 650b size predates the sport of MTB. It did not come from R&D to create a dedicated MTB size. It was an off the shelf size people easily fit in their 26"ers. The industry dialed everything in around 650b just like we did with the other two preexisting sizes. Had beach cruisers used 650b nothing would be different about the sport. Someone would have experimented with 26" wheels in their 650b's and raved about how they pumped and jumped better. The industry would have designed around 26 and we would be exactly where we are now with people talking about how 650b was better and the industry screwed us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    Yep ^^^
    exactly
    They want to make you believe that you HAVE to buy this new bike/wheels/tyres.
    That how they make their money.

    Here's a photo of my main MTB and My commuter
    The 650 has 1,75 slick the 26 has 2,2 knobby , not a world of difference.

    Now when someone tells me that 650 rolls a lot better over obstacles than 26, I kinda find that funny

    I'm not talking 700 wheels but 650.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thx. That's my point here.
    I bet nobody can actually feel a difference. Going 27.5 and silently killing 26 is a great way of making money. Some riders just can't get comfortable on a 29 and would go 26 but hey..... ohhhh if he can ride 26 then we can sell a 27.5 instead.

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    Mass production and standardization of parts - the same thing we (myself included) lament - allow us AMAZING choices as consumers. those goods cost MUCH less than hand-made custom products. But the custom products are still there if you we want to pay the old prices.

    The same is true of bikes. There are a number of reputable frame builders that will bang you out any 20, 24, 26, 27.5, 29, 32, 36, etc... frame you could ask for. If youre willing to pay

    So are we being cheated? Or is the consumer luxury we once had simply giving way to something else?

    Are bike companies evil? Well technically one is but mostly theyre trying to survive in an industry with tight margins. As a manufacturer I know the push/pull between what youd love to do and what you have to do to make it.

    Ive been buying and selling used for the past two years to get an idea what I want most (dragonslayer arrives Monday) because I am honestly often torn between quick and clickable and monster rollover (ranging in bikes Ive owned from a stumpy 26er to a surly Krampus 29+) and hopefully there will be a mainstream option that works for me when I hone in on a winning geo. But if not, then its custom-made if I can afford it

    Wheelsets arent going anywhere with major cities getting massive 26er fleets for their bike shares because theyre so much stronger.

  187. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99 View Post
    650b came to us via happenstance just like 26" and 29". 650b size predates the sport of MTB. It did not come from R&D to create a dedicated MTB size. It was an off the shelf size people easily fit in their 26"ers. The industry dialed everything in around 650b just like we did with the other two preexisting sizes. Had beach cruisers used 650b nothing would be different about the sport. Someone would have experimented with 26" wheels in their 650b's and raved about how they pumped and jumped better. The industry would have designed around 26 and we would be exactly where we are now with people talking about how 650b was better and the industry screwed us.
    650b was in very limited use at the time it was chosen for mtb use compared to 26 and 29 when they were. It is not even close.

    Early 26 mtbs were repurposed and modified balloon bikes and cruisers. THAT is why 26 was standard. Its not like the early 27.5 mtbs were repurposed randonneur bikes. They were purpose built mtbs, and the builders specifically chose 650b among a range of obscure sizes they could have chosen.

    And no, 650b did not first come from people stuffing 650b tires in their 26. There were scant few 650b wheels and zero mtb tires to do it with. They did not have them to play with until 650b bikes were already in production.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  188. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    And no, 650b did not first come from people stuffing 650b tires in their 26.
    Quite a few of the early adopters in fact did just that. Kirk Pacenty kicked things off by funding a run of tires. There were already a few rim choices in the needed size. There were numerous early-adopter conversions of 26r bikes.

    There's actually another 650 size -- either 650a or c, I forget -- that would have been a better midpoint, but that wasn't chosen because rims in that size were not available, so b it was.

  189. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalon2018 View Post
    I must say the 29 works much better than the 26 which I rode since 1988.
    I'm sure that would hold true for just about ANY modern bike of any wheel size.
    Or anything from the early 90's on up for that matter.
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    The case for 'choice' and 'standardization of parts' argument would be valid if 26-er equipment was still made on a large scale, which it isn't....

    The question of Boost 148 came up as a reply earlier and there is something to say about that too.

    It is true that a wider hub would give a laterally stronger wheel. On paper it would also result in a very slightly less stiff wheel in the vertical direction.
    It would also allow for a wider tire.

    Now, Boost 148 on a 29" wheel gives about the same spoke angle as 142 spacing on a 26" wheel so it makes sense in terms of keeping the same possibility of stiffness. Increase in tire clearance is barely noticeable.

    If we talk SuperBoost at 153 (?) then the gain is bigger in terms of tire clearance. The spoke angle would only increase by 0.5-0.7 deg or so.

    This video sheds some light on bike spec evolution.


  191. #591
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    omg, I'd forgotten about that video. That's def how it happened.

    Ride what you like, what ya' brung, what you can afford, what ma gave ya'... roll with it and get movin.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  192. #592
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emax View Post
    The way they are leaning on racers in the road cycling to use disc brakes is a good example of what I'm talking about here. Discs on a road bike won't make you go faster, but they sure will make servicing your bike a lot harder, and more expensive...


    Well it first depends on if the bike frame can handle disk calipers or not. I'm not a big fan of those conversion kits, never tried one but they have very mixed reviews online.

    If a bike frame is disc compatible, it's not expensive OR hard to put them on. I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground mechanic-wise and I'm able to put on pre-bled calipers in 10 minutes. Rotor in 3 minutes. They are as cheap as $50/front-back pair, and that's hydraulic. Most of the time it's zero service until the pads wear out, then you spend $10-20 and it takes about 3-5 minutes to take out the pin, slide in the pads, and put the pin in again.

    I don't mind different opinions and controversy but hydraulic brakes are relatively cheap, very easy to install/maintain, and are clearly superior to rim brakes. This should not even be an argument.
    We ALL have something to learn here. Post helpful solutions instead of flaming for your own sadistic need.

  193. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Sorry if I hurt your feelings, that's not my intent. But I'm entitled to my opinion and my opinion is that 26" wheels are drastically inferior to larger diameter wheels for *someone my size* and *where I ride* and *how I ride.* And yeah, I'll project the same opinion onto the remainder of the off-road riding world regardless of how myopic doing so may be. My opinion is based on my experience and the reason I feel the way I do. I sincerely believe that anyone who'll fit on larger wheels will be better served by them.

    But everyone -- including you & me -- is entitled to their own opinion and I'm not simply being patronizing when I say it's refreshing to find someone who feels as you do, blaklabl. I may disagree but I think the diversity is terrific. I rode 26" wheels for 30 years and enjoyed every mountain bike I ever owned with that wheelsize. Right up until something dramatically better came along.

    Bikes with proper wheelbases (ie: long) are another boon to someone my height (6'2"). Given my center of gravity disadvantage, I need all the help I can get. Wheels that roll over things better plus a frame that helps keep me between the axles -- both really help.

    Meanwhile run what ya brung and hold your head high, blaklabl. We each have to make our own way.
    =sParty
    Having an opinion based upon experience is not measurable though, there is just no data to suggest a 26" is "drastically inferior to larger diameter wheels"

    Some 27.5" tyres have the same or even smaller circumference than some 26" tyres
    So any "opinion" about 27.5" being noticeably better at anything than a 26" bike isn't really worth anything

    Even comparing 29" bikes to 26" bikes is pointless

    How many 26" bikes have the same geometry than 29" bikes?
    I can't think of any highly rated built within the last year that has 26" wheels

    The only real test is to fit 26" wheels to a modern 29" bike
    You have the same geometry, same groupset, so it's a fair comparison

    We have done this, not one of the 6 riders that tried it preferred the 29"wheels
    On the single track terrain we tested it on, every single rider preferred the quicker response when peddling and the sharper control on handling of the 26"

    The times didn't offer and conclusive proof
    All said the 26" wheels felt faster, some where faster with the 26" wheels, others were faster with the 29" wheels

    This is the problem
    People buy stuff then post how it's dramatically or drastically better, it's eases their mind in their choices physiologically
    The reality is that their opinions are not based on facts and their not subjective, as they're not comparing like to like

    As we're all adults it's really everyone's choice what they spend their hard earned on
    If i see a mate that's happy with his new bike, i'm really happy for him

    But to push the line that something that's not been measured or tested comparatively is "drastically inferior" is just wrong and not based on any facts what-so-ever

    If you prefer a 29er, good on ya, i think it's great that you've found something you're happy with.
    But you don't need to justify that choice by by using completely unsubstantiated opinions
    1994 Fully Rigid Diamond Back Axis TT
    2009 Trek Fuel Ex 7

  194. #594
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    Are there any "non super expensive" options for 26 inch front wheels in 110x15mm?

    Seriously there are shit tons of 27er and 29er available even for super cheap so why no 26er?

    I don't need some light stuff, just durable.

    Thanks in advance

  195. #595
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    I have a little story about 26 vs. 27.5. I'm saving up to build a 24 lb XC bike. One Chinese carbon frame builder has 27.5 and 26 frames, both modern geometry. That made me wonder if I could save extra weight with 26. It turns out, at least on paper, that I'd only save 1/2 lb with 26" vs. 27.5. And I can always run 26" wheels on a 27.5" anyway, so it's a no-brainer.
    We ALL have something to learn here. Post helpful solutions instead of flaming for your own sadistic need.

  196. #596
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    Well... I remember days when Avid, Truvativ, Sachs, and Sram were all separate companies, I still ride a Titus, and I remember many different names in the bike industry that either vanished, or got bought out by bigger companies - I'm not denying that there are new companies out there, but I still think that the ownership of brands became concentrated. This has many consequences - new products are brought quicker to market, and there is more resources for careful marketing and packaging of said goodies. With all the data available to manufacturers from social media - they can target their product at very specific audiences.

    You're absolutely right that it wasn't the big companies that jumped on the 29er band wagon - that it was the small players (though GF was owned by TREK as you said). But the smaller players didn't exactly capitalize on the 29er boom and now they are just along for the ride - big players have taken over the momentum (which is funny because 29ers are all about the momentum). If you go back 10 years Titus was proud of their 96ers even... I get all that. But the change from 26 to 27.5 is not exactly same as going from 26er to 29er... so why do it? It's not like a 26er has square wheels and there is nothing good about it. If you go back 10 years, 29er single speed bikes were the tools of the strongest riders on the trails, because you had to have the skill and strength to pull that off. Now 29ers sport huge range with crazy ratios - just to solve the problem where these bikes were hard to ride up the hill if the rider wasn't strong enough. We could have had 26ers and 29ers on the market with a few makers making 27.5... Look, I'm still close to the industry, and can tell you that new riders never came into the shop asking for a 27.5 - they might have asked about the 29er though. I think that the industry saw an opportunity and took it.

    I don't think that manufacturer making a small batch of reasonably priced - let's even say $500 - $700 26er forks would have a problem with selling them, same goes for 3x9 XT level components or any 3x components...

    How many people do you see riding on a road bike in a foul weather? Not many on New Jersey roads, and discs are not fool proof - I've had problems with Magura's leaking, pad contamination, bent rotors (yeah that won't be annoying on a road bike)... look - most bike companies these days are owned by investors who are looking for your dollars, gone are the days of passionate bike makers - now it's all market analysis and targeted marketing. On the road there is real opposition to the discs and the companies are pushing for that hard... no one can deny that. In reality, discs are only better in the wet, but even then it is down to the tire and the asphalt... BTW this marketing hoopla is affecting all aspects of our lives.. not just bikes, and with more powerful tools, marketing companies are able to sell us stuff because they sometimes know our habits than we do.

  197. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneTrustMan View Post
    Are there any "non super expensive" options for 26 inch front wheels in 110x15mm?

    Seriously there are shit tons of 27er and 29er available even for super cheap so why no 26er?

    I don't need some light stuff, just durable.

    Thanks in advance
    Define "not super expensive" since that will apply differently to different riders.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  198. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    Define "not super expensive" since that will apply differently to different riders.
    Like something between 80 to 130 dollar.
    I can find only stuff for like 250 up to 500 dollar.

  199. #599
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    I actually have this specific post bookmarked, as it may be my favorite on MTBR of all time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuner View Post
    Man, discussions like these harden my heart for the sport. Just like quite a few others on here, I started Mtnbkg in the early 90s and have loved it ever since. I've made a lot of friends that way and have had some really awesome experiences. At that time, you would come across another Mtnbkr and you could guarantee they were pretty cool. One of the best group of guys you could know. It's how I encouraged my friends to get a bike and join me and they immediately noticed the same. No one cared what bike you had, what gear or even what you wore. Hell, if you were in cut off jeans and a skateboard helmet, the more experienced and hardcore you looked and it typically fit. They were the badasses on the trail.

    Then, all of a sudden it seemed there was a riff. Something changed overnight. Pretty boys were too worried about how they looked and what they rode instead of how they rode. They'd scuff at guys like me with my properly used bike and gear but then we'd proceed to whip their tail on the trail. New riders weren't and aren't as friendly anymore. So many of them turn out to be A-holes who fly on by a downed rider or will stick their nose up at you.

    We shouldn't have to ever make these stupid points on these types of threads anymore. Only thing to say is to get the gear that works for *you*. 26 works for me because I'm 5'8'. A 29 fits my brother because he's 6'4". Simple. Neither is better than the other, just the best for each others size. I'd be a fool to be on a 29r. He looked like a giant on a 26r.

    I've had an Elsworth Truth since '01 and will always continue to ride it. Wouldn't trade that 26 for anything. It fits me, is one bada$$ bike and I haven't been on another like it that has catered to my style so well.

    Now I'm getting my son involved in mountain biking. We take his BMX 20in out because it fits him and he's doing great things with it. Even though he's enjoying it immensely, I get pissed at the looks and side marks he receives especially from those that have no clue what they're doing. When he's older and bigger and has mastered maneuvering a bike around, he'll get a bigger bike and then learn the next step of gearing. Again, simple but it's those other pathetic riders that are starting to turn us away from it and it shouldn't be that way.

    Wish everyone would take a chill pill, step away from this marketing BS that has destroyed the camaraderie of this sport, and go back to enjoying it as it was. Get on a bike, any bike, head to the trail and enjoy.
    MTBR: Your dad's online mountain bike forum.



  200. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbr6fs View Post
    Having an opinion based upon experience is not measurable though, there is just no data to suggest a 26" is "drastically inferior to larger diameter wheels"

    Some 27.5" tyres have the same or even smaller circumference than some 26" tyres
    So any "opinion" about 27.5" being noticeably better at anything than a 26" bike isn't really worth anything

    Even comparing 29" bikes to 26" bikes is pointless

    How many 26" bikes have the same geometry than 29" bikes?
    I can't think of any highly rated built within the last year that has 26" wheels

    The only real test is to fit 26" wheels to a modern 29" bike
    You have the same geometry, same groupset, so it's a fair comparison

    We have done this, not one of the 6 riders that tried it preferred the 29"wheels
    On the single track terrain we tested it on, every single rider preferred the quicker response when peddling and the sharper control on handling of the 26"

    The times didn't offer and conclusive proof
    All said the 26" wheels felt faster, some where faster with the 26" wheels, others were faster with the 29" wheels

    This is the problem
    People buy stuff then post how it's dramatically or drastically better, it's eases their mind in their choices physiologically
    The reality is that their opinions are not based on facts and their not subjective, as they're not comparing like to like

    As we're all adults it's really everyone's choice what they spend their hard earned on
    If i see a mate that's happy with his new bike, i'm really happy for him

    But to push the line that something that's not been measured or tested comparatively is "drastically inferior" is just wrong and not based on any facts what-so-ever

    If you prefer a 29er, good on ya, i think it's great that you've found something you're happy with.
    But you don't need to justify that choice by by using completely unsubstantiated opinions
    As I said, we each have to make our own way. Cheers!
    =sParty
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    We don't quit riding because we get old.
    We get old because we quit riding.

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