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  1. #1
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    DT Swiss XR400 rims and Tubeless?

    Has anybody made the XR400s tubeless? Any issues ?

    Thanks,

    Flash

  2. #2
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    I used the Stan's 29er XC kit and it has been bomb proof.

    Took the DT strips out, put one layer of the narrow yellow tape included with the kit on to cover the spoke holes, put the rubber strips on top. Mounted tires and put sealant in before setting the bead on both sides. Spritzed tire bead with lightly sudsy stuff (helps it slide out and set into the rim hook). Used compressed air to seat the tires, finished with floor pump. I've put over 100 miles of trail, much of it chunky, on them with nil issues.

    Note: based upon others comments and my personal experience with the wheels, particularly as you don't seem to be a fly-weight dude, I'd suggest having a good wheel builder go over the wheels to increase the spoke tension a bit from stock and pre-stress them in order to maximize their lifetime.

    My front wheel is peachy but my rear has needed some work to bring it back into true/round and in so doing I feel the the spokes were at a pretty low tension. I'm not a pro wheel builder, but the wheels on my hard-tail have "tons" of miles on them (couple thousand?) and are running true ... of course they are rolling Stan's Flow rims and that helps, structurally speaking.

    If I remember you saying you're around 250 riding weight, I'd plan on getting some rims to replace the stock ones with, eventually.

    Either talk nice to DT to see what you can get out of them (they helped out another SB95 owner) or something like the Stan's Flow (burlier than XR400, easy-peasy tubeless) or Flow Ex (new model, burlier yet).

    FWIW, notubes.com is having a sale right now on the "base model" Flow rims.

    Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Stan's or Notubes.com in any way, I've just been happily (ab)using their product for years.

  3. #3
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    Flash,

    Had mine converted to tubeless before it ever left the showroom floor. No issues thus far. They used the Stan's conversion kit (Stems and Tape) on mine and they used Oragne Seal for the sealant. I am new to moutain biking so not hitting things too hard at the moment. Good luck!
    2009 Bacchetta Giro 26 Road
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  4. #4
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    Thanks for the replies, guys. Looks like I have a weekend project ahead!

    Flash

  5. #5
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    Made mine tubeless before my SB-95 left the bike shop. Had issues with burping on just about every ride, and put 3 flat spots in the rear wheel before I reached 200 miles. Had the 400s replaced with Stans Arch EXs- 75 miles in, I am very pleased with the decision. Much stiffer, and no burping issues.

    215, 6'5", so no fly weight here.
    Yeti SB-95a Black

  6. #6
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    Had the same question for my new sb-95. Thanks to all for the input. Also, have enjoyed reading Bear and Bacon's posts for a while (forum voyeur...hehe). Helped in my decision about which bike to get and haven't been disappointed with the choice to get an sb-95!

  7. #7
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    Congrats Meesta!

    Keep the rubber side down.

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    FWIW, I'm also running the Ardent and the Ikon tubeless on the XR400s with Stans kit. 50+ miles in 4 days and couldn't be happier.

  9. #9
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    I had a small number of people tell me that you COULD use just stan's yellow tape and valve and convert to tubeless, but with how the tires fit on the rims I didn't feel confident in that - I wanted the extra volume taken up by the rubber strips.

    They never let me down, while I had the XR400's on the bike at least, nor on any other rim I've had them on over the years.

  10. #10
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    XR400 durability and tubeless experience

    I had XR400's on my Pivot 29er, I was debating buying a new wheelset or just replacing the XR400 rims with ARCH EX rims. I have had issues with both Front and Rear staying true. After only half a season, both rims need to be replaced. Sounds like from others the XR400's are not as sturdy as the Arch's or other rims out there.

    I know this form is about going tubeless with XR400's. The shop setup my XR400 tubeless before I left shop. I believe the LBS just used the stans kit as they did not charge me for the setup (and DT kit is $50 a wheel). I have had no issues with the tubeless, no burping, tires seat great, I do run about 32psi and have to sometimes add a little air about once a week. I ran the rims with Specialized Control Captain tires.

    However, I don't think I will buy the XR400 rims again. I am glad I read this form that others are having the same durability issues.

  11. #11
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    Just picked up a Big Top race build with the XR400 rims; already have the rear in for truing and to have a ding pulled out. Grand total of 35 miles. Hoping to get about 250 out of them before I have to replace.

    Been very pleased with the Arch EXs on my SB-95. Probably have 1,000 hard, off-road CTX miles on them, and they are still round and true.
    Yeti SB-95a Black

  12. #12
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    Mr. Bacon, dude you're 6'5" and 215# ! I assume we can add another 10# for riding gear weight? The 400 is a narrow (19mm) XC rim, I'm surprised you didn't fully explode the thing in the parking lot test. Them rims work great for a lot of people, but the Stans Arch EX is a 21mm wide rim and is more like a DT 500 series rim. Apple to apples, man. FWIW, my experience is similar: I can easily put a DT 400 out of true quite quickly, but have had great success with 500, 5.1, etc. rims from DT. I'm 6'2" and about 205# fully geared with Camelbak.

    That said, my girlfriend runs DT 400 rims with the Stans conversion kit and has ZERO issues with them staying true, burping, or otherwise. She's also 5'2" and well under a buck-fiddy with a full Camelbak.
    The older I get, the faster I was.





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  13. #13
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    ^^^ True that! Not the right rim for my size or riding style. Knew that going in, but the deal on the Big Top as a fully built bike made having to replace the rims pretty quickly not that big a deal.

    Only question is what to get- Arch EXs again, or do I risk a bit more dough and order a pair of CF hoops from China? Lighter, stronger, and stiffer, and anecdotal evidence suggest they are working out well for most (bigger) folks.
    Yeti SB-95a Black

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    I as well am the owner of a new 2013 Big Top build with DT XR400 rims and over the course of 3 months and 170+ miles have bent the rear rim twice pretty significantly (I roll probably 185-ish lbs fully geared up).

    The first dent the shop was able to "remove" (ie bend back out) but the 2nd dent they decided to let it be as it still managed to setup tubless with the stock Ikon's. So at least that part is working out for me. However I now fear running the rear tire at anything less than 35 psi for any trail condition, which kinda mitigates some of the advantages of setting up tubeless in the first place.

    I anticipate upgrading to Stan's Arch or Flow EX's here shortly.

  15. #15
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    ... the xr400's are probably not also intended for the downhill-like-a-dh-bike attitude I have, over here in rocky PA ... especially as I started riding them at over 220# rider weight alone ... but then again Yeti should have anticipated that kind of use of the bike I bought and put on something more appropriate. :P

  16. #16
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    It is interesting that the pre-production demo bikes came with XR470s, which seemed to be more burly. Only a bit heavier (20g) and actually cheaper, at about the same width. Wonder what design or business decision drove Yeti to spec the 400, especially on the SB-95. Maybe the only pre-build 29er wheel DT Swiss could supply at the right price?
    Yeti SB-95a Black

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bacon Jr View Post
    ....what design or business decision drove Yeti to spec the 400 ...
    I'm assuming (!) that they used what they already had in stock for the Big Top.

  18. #18
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    I've run the 29" XR400s tubeless for about 850 miles so far. Yellow tape, Stan's valve stem, and Kenda Karma 1.9 L3R Pro's. Took a week or so to seal up properly, but since then, I've had zero problems. It's time to replace the tires.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampir View Post
    I've run the 29" XR400s tubeless for about 850 miles so far. Yellow tape, Stan's valve stem, and Kenda Karma 1.9 L3R Pro's. Took a week or so to seal up properly, but since then, I've had zero problems. It's time to replace the tires.
    The beauty of Kendas- 850 miles of use. If I get 300 out of a set of Schwalbes, I am happy.
    Yeti SB-95a Black

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bacon Jr View Post
    The beauty of Kendas- 850 miles of use. If I get 300 out of a set of Schwalbes, I am happy.
    I'm debating kendas, I have the wierd issue that I only have two recent tire experiences with kenda 29er tires

    - nevegal (aka: old faithful, or as a friend once described another tire - trail "suction cups" - never let go, even when it's holding you back)

    - slant6

    I've run both on my hard-tail and been happy with their performance in different ways. the slant6 surprised me in that it went on the hard-tail *last* *november* and got ridden (front and rear) through the winter. The only saving grace is that it was an uncharacteristically dry winter for NE PA ... not "TX dry" but not very snowy ... and while it was at least moist most of the time the tires turned out to be pretty controllable if not optimal.

    And bejeebers the slant6 roll.

    I'm considering setting up my two wheelsets next springs as "aggro" vs "xc" and changing wheels for the ride...if I'm going to be doing a particularly XC "thang".

  21. #21
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    Rode Nevegals for 3 years, front and back. Great traction, and last forever; usually got the dreaded Nevagoiter before the tread wore out.

    Then I test rode the SB-95, which had RaRas on it- the difference in rotating weight and decrease in rolling resistance made me an instant convert. I now run some combination of RaRa, Nobby Nic, and Hans Dampf and have been very happy. Other than the fact they wear out rather quickly.
    Yeti SB-95a Black

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bacon Jr View Post
    ... some combination of RaRa, Nobby Nic, and Hans Dampf and have been very happy. Other than the fact they wear out rather quickly.
    Define "quickly" please.

  23. #23
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    RaRa on the rear dead in 200-250 miles, max. Or about a month
    RaRa on the front, 400+, or 2 months
    Nobby Nic, rear, 300 or so, front 450 or so
    Hans Dampf- front, 350 to date, about ready to replace.
    Yeti SB-95a Black

  24. #24
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    Thx, most mileage I've gotten on the back tire so far was from a Geax Sturdy at ~260 miles. Currently running WTB Bronson TCS so we'll see how that goes.

    The Ardent 2.4 on the front lasted about 470 miles, the Rampage 2.35 that replaced it is worn but going strong at approaching 430 miles.

  25. #25
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    So what is your current favorite combo? Just swapped the RaRa on the front of the Big Top for a Nobby Nic today. Love the RaRa on the rear for just about anything here in CTX, but on the front it tends to wash out. As I was reminded yesterday on our Wed group ride- on my ass in an easy (but loose) corner.
    Yeti SB-95a Black

  26. #26
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    I'm not sure I have a favorite yet, I need to try some more tires first. Certainly going through rear tires fast enough.

    Specifically I want to try the Hans D at least as a front - to see how it compares to the Rampage at least - and I'm still hoping for a more burly 2.2 to 2.3 rear tire.

    If I were serious about racing I'd definitely have two wheelsets though, one setup with 2.2" tires for racing (like the Ikon) and one setup with mo-sturdy-phat tires for daily driving.

    Best rear tire so far has to go to the Ikon 3c/eXc/EXO though - commensurate endurance with everything else I have used but a ton lighter and rolls super fast. Only thing is I didn't get to check it out under wet conditions, and it gives up a "little" to big-rock work because of lower volume.

    If I was riding strictly dry conditions (like Austin) I'd seriously be thinking about the Ardent 2.4 on both ends, great volume, solid sidewall, relatively fast tire. For me up here in the great wetter NE I'm not sure it's the right choice. I may try "the ardent" thing next spring after the area dries out though.

    but like I said, too many more tries to try. Schwalbe, Specialized, Hutchinson (is there a Python 2.3 29er - if it has a good sidewall it could be a great tire?), etc.

  27. #27
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    My favorite combo on Austin's dry, rocky trails has been the Panaracer Rampage (2.35) in front and Maxxis Ardent (2.25) in back.

    I used Schwalbes for the first two sets (double Ralphs, followed by double Nobby Nics). I thought they were good but didn't have any durability/staying power.

    I might try an Ikon instead of an Ardent in the back next... I'm curious about it.

    I've been really impressed with the durability of the Rampage... it looks almost like it did 500 miles ago.

  28. #28
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    No surprise here I understand, but got my rear XR400 trued back up almost 2 weeks ago. Now two relaitvely tame recreation rides and a single10 mile race later... noticeably out of true again.

    I'll be doing my BT review here in a little while probably and at this point I've got to dock at least 1 star from value no thanks to these effn soft DT rims and am considering knocking off a star overall as well. Sucks as the rest of the bike/build I love.

    Thanks for the Central Tejas tire notes addATX, gonna remember this for the Dallas Metro area come tire replacement time. Although thus far the Ikon's have working pretty damn well on everything save dusty soft dirt and loose rabble. But since 90%+ of the trails are other man do they roll well and fast on the vast majority of what I ride on.

  29. #29
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    I wanted to jump on the bandwagon of XR400 hate also. After 50miles they were wayyyyyy out of true. It was bad! But then I had a wheel builder I trust go back over them, retention and true, and they've been solid since. I'm a clyde (220lbs) so I'm pretty hard on wheels.

    Try running the Ikon at 28 PSI or there abouts. I find it rocks loose and loose over hard pack conditions here in SoCal.

    EDIT: 11/16/12

    I would like to retract the above statement. I just bent my front xr400 rim beyond repair on a steep rocky decent. I chose a poor line, by the rim should have held up... Went OTB when the wheel wedged between the fork.

    Back on the xr400 bandwagon of hate. YO YETI! THESE RIMS DONT BELONG ON THE SB95!!!
    Last edited by Huntro; 11-16-2012 at 03:28 PM.

  30. #30
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    Beefy!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DT Swiss XR400 rims and Tubeless?-laced-flow-ex.jpg  


  31. #31
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    Hello,

    I just picked up an SB95, originally was shooting for a SB66 but decided to give the 29er a try.

    Anyhow, I have read mixed reviews on the wheel sets. My concerns is how well the wheel sets will hold up under my weight which is 273lbs. I'm loosing weight but not fast enough. So I'm looking into options as what to do. Should I have a local shop check the tension on the spokes or would my time be better spent looking for new wheels?

    If it must be new wheels, what would be a good affordable alternative? Something that is a direct bolt in replacement so to say.

    Thanks

  32. #32
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    I would just have the shop put a set of Stan's Flow rims on the existing hubs. Not too expensive, and bomb proof. Then sell the DT rims.
    Yeti SB-95a Black

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bacon Jr View Post
    I would just have the shop put a set of Stan's Flow rims on the existing hubs. Not too expensive, and bomb proof. Then sell the DT rims.
    Thanks, I'm going to look into it tomorrow!

  34. #34
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    Well after 10 miles my front wheel needs trued

    I'm waiting on a call from the LBS on what it will cost to swap in some Stan's and when they have time.

  35. #35
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    Yep... Those XR400s are a joke on that bike. Trashed mine in about 20 miles, I think.

    The XM490 s have been better.
    But, I may end up with Stan's next time too.

  36. #36
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    What are you guys doing that is thrashing the XR400's?

    I've only had one problem with mine and that was my own fault. I got a broomstick sized piece of wood caught in my rear spokes on a steep downhill. It bent a bunch of spokes and the rim partially taco'ed on me. Otherwise, I've put ~1500 miles on them now without a problem at all. In fact, they've stayed remarkably true in that time.

    Point of reference, I'm mostly XC'ing with them and I'm about 165 lbs right now.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampir View Post
    What are you guys doing that is thrashing the XR400's?

    I've only had one problem with mine and that was my own fault. I got a broomstick sized piece of wood caught in my rear spokes on a steep downhill. It bent a bunch of spokes and the rim partially taco'ed on me. Otherwise, I've put ~1500 miles on them now without a problem at all. In fact, they've stayed remarkably true in that time.

    Point of reference, I'm mostly XC'ing with them and I'm about 165 lbs right now.
    Well, in fairness, I out weigh you by 100lbs. I'm sure the XR400 are nice wheels but their not designed to handle my weight an abuse.

    Anyhow, I order a set of Stan's Flow EX wheels.

  38. #38
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    Vampir, when I got my SB I weighed about 225, now I'm about 200.

    My riding conditions feature a ton of rocks and logs (NE PA) and often "at speed" - there's one memorable downhill I hit in Bald Eagle State Forest near RB Winter State Park where after the ride I figured that I was doing 15-20 mph in a carved turn through a 100 yard rock garden (6"-12" rocks).

    I've also had the bike doing lightweight downhill at Burke Mtn in VT.

    I have no problem believing the rims were not designed for that. The fact that I made both wheels become 'less than happy' leads me to believe it was the wrong equipment for me to have.

    But the Flow rims have not much cared about what I've done on the bike. I have a minor hop in my rear wheel right now, but that happened because after burping some air at one point of a ride I was bombing another descent and hit a log hidden by scrub undergrowth - which I *almost* managed to hop over anyway ... got the front over it. Only way to defend against that is to slow down, and who wants to do that?

  39. #39
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    The XR400 rim is a race rim much like the Stan's Olympic rim. Narrow and light weight with aluminum that dents easily.

    Companies spec them to drop the weight of the bike. They are high quality and price as well. Plus OEM deals are made long in advance. Fully built bikes are not sold ala carte ya know.

    Know what you are riding on and modify to suit your needs. It is part of the fun of mountain biking.
    99% of the problems and questions posted here would be answered if people actually walked into a bicycle shop and asked

  40. #40
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    Welp it seems my personal ordeal with the XR400 rim is likely to be soon coming to a close. After a protracted discussion with the Yeti warranty department, which produced exactly zero options for resolving the problem... well unless, "customizing your own bike to better suit your personal needs can be a fun part of the sport" (ie thanks for the $3,600 and if the wheels we selected are causing you problems feel free to buy new wheels!) is considered reasonable problem solving, DT Swiss has offered the option to relace the wheels with their XM 490 rim for a reasonable cost.

    However I have not found much rider feedback on XM 490 and wanted to see if you guys had any useful experience? In general it is a significantly wider, deeper and heavier rim compared to the XR400, which I'd assume should bode well from the durability perspective:

    XM 490


    XR 400

  41. #41
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    Yes the XM series are very nice. Just rebuild the wheels already....
    99% of the problems and questions posted here would be answered if people actually walked into a bicycle shop and asked

  42. #42
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    Thanks for the feedback.

    And that's exactly what I've been hoping to do, just took awhile to get to the point where someone, DT Swiss is this case, was presenting a reasonable solution. Still quite dissatisfied with Yeti's warranty department.

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    Sounds like we had similar conversations with both Yeti and DT Swiss.

    I've had much better luck with the XM490 than I did with the XR400. (DT Swiss was fair when helping me out with the replacement as well - good company).

    I wouldn't call the XM490 perfect, but they are much, much more durable than what Yeti spec'd!

  44. #44
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    FWIW- just put a Chinese carbon fiber rim on the rear of my Big Top. Much stiffer, significantly wider (23mm inner rim width) and 110 grams lighter than with the XR400. Only have about 30 miles thus far, but am pleased at this point. If it works as planned, I'll be replacing the front rim with one, and building a set of race wheel with DT 240 hubs.
    Yeti SB-95a Black

  45. #45
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    @addATX - I'm comforted to hear you actually have some seat time on the 490's. Agreed that it's not the ideal solution in my mind, I'd probably be on Arch EX's if I could do it all over again, but just to know that the 490's are at least a much better match for the capabilities of the bike (and the conditions in Central & North Texas) helps put my mind at ease regarding the decision. So I do very much appreciate your input.

    Likewise I have been pleasantly surprised by the general helpful attitude of DT Swiss. They seem to very much understand the intrinsic value of quality customer service and from the very first email I received from their service department they were suggesting potential solutions. Good company indeed.

    Do you mind me asking how specifically you managed the shipping back to DT Swiss? I was thinking of asking for assistance from the LBS, if nothing else than getting some appropriately sized boxes, but is there anything else from your experience that you'd note regarding shipping?

    @bacon - Interesting idea. However at this point I really need to limit the hit to my pocketbook and DT's solution is definitely a very economical one.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by icelt View Post
    @addATX -


    Do you mind me asking how specifically you managed the shipping back to DT Swiss? I was thinking of asking for assistance from the LBS, if nothing else than getting some appropriately sized boxes, but is there anything else from your experience that you'd note regarding shipping?
    Nothing special. I found a box that fit them, and used a bunch of crumpled newspaper to fill in the extra space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntro View Post
    Beefy!
    Agreed!

    I installed a set of Stan's Flow EX wheels and haven't looked back. These wheels take a beating and ask for more!!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by addATX View Post
    Nothing special. I found a box that fit them, and used a bunch of crumpled newspaper to fill in the extra space.
    Very good and simple enough. Thanks for the feedback.

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    Hello everyone.
    I´ve found this forum searching info about the xr400 rims.I´ve recently built a set of wheels using this rim and want to run into tubeless.I want to use stans tape and valve only (no rimstrip).Do you think it it possible using tubeless ready tires?
    I´m using my bike for xc only.
    Thank you very much!

  50. #50
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    If your tubeless-ready or UST tires that have a fairly tight bead I think it may work.

    I used stan's rubber strips in the ones I had with the stock non-tubeless Maxxis tires and the system worked really well, their beads are more loose than the UST/tubeless-ready stuff.

    You may need to add a couple layers if it's still too loose a fit though.

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