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  1. #1
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    Whats your current 30 minute TT power average?

    Just did a 30 min TT last week outside on the road bike with my new powertap. This was my first TT using power. I averaged 200watts for 30 minutes/157 HR. This seems weak, no? In my defense, I'm out of shape and just started base.

    I finished off my season well in sport and am going to expert so just curious about what numbers others like me (I'm 39) are hitting right now. I don't really have anything to compare at this point.
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  2. #2
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    Access your watts/kg data on your PT... start with this chart... perhaps it will give you just a point of reference...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Whats your current 30 minute TT power average?-power-weight-chart.png  

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  3. #3
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    my lthr was at 186 bpm avg for 20 min on last test fwiw...no pm for wattage..

    i will do test again to verify soon..

    used j. friel method for lthr fwiw..

  4. #4
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    You are weak and should rightly be ashamed of those numbers!

    But really, What Strat said. Check your preferences in the Power Agent and if you have the time, give the CycleOps help desk a call. They're really good at making sure you get the most from their product.
    Authorities speculate that speed may have been a factor. They are also holding gravity and inertia for questioning.

  5. #5
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    Sounds like something is off on the PT or software. Unless you're about 100#?

    Edit: was it rolling terrain or did it include any stops? If so you may want to check out the normalized power instead of average?

  6. #6
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    My power for a 30 min TT?
    No idea, and I don't know if your number is good or bad .
    But! Remember mountain bike racing is about more than just power or power/weight ratio; there is also a skill and handling component, so don't get too hung up on numbers.


    Oh yeah, one more thing, those guys in Cat 1 that say they are such roadies and suck at the technical stuff are lying.

  7. #7
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    I'm about 165 right now. I did 4X15 minute OU intervals of ~250W pushing pretty good last week (outside on roads with longer constant grades; up and down). With practice, my downhill power has gotten a lot better. 200W is my tempo target when I'm fresh.

    But then again, in early December, ~200W was my threshold when not riding for a month after a broken wrist. And I was 172. I struggled to push 130W for a hour on the trainer.

    BTW, I train at elevation. One week I trained in Vegas...... man, what a great instant power boost!!!
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by miss rides a lot View Post
    Sounds like something is off on the PT or software. Unless you're about 100#?

    Edit: was it rolling terrain or did it include any stops? If so you may want to check out the normalized power instead of average?
    It was cold and I had full winter gear on and I'm out of shape so I think I'm just weak right now although it does sound low-I won my division in sport last season. I cant find normalized power on the power agent 7.

    I did have 2 roll through stop signs and it was a bit hilly.

    I should try and upgrade the software or do a reboot of the cpu to make sure power is accurate.
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  9. #9
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    Sounds like you are out of shape. Numbers move quickly when you are out of shape, so don't worry. But make sure you start training.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  10. #10
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    Yeah....what everyone else said. Be very careful looking at raw wattages. The top of my endurance zone power is right at 215W. At my weight, I can hardly climb a mole hill at that power. For reference, my last 20min TT effort was right at 350W (rolling terrain...but no stops). I think I could possibly do 15-20W faster on a completely flat course, or better yet, a 2% incline course.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnowStorm View Post
    Yeah....what everyone else said. Be very careful looking at raw wattages. The top of my endurance zone power is right at 215W. At my weight, I can hardly climb a mole hill at that power. For reference, my last 20min TT effort was right at 350W (rolling terrain...but no stops). I think I could possibly do 15-20W faster on a completely flat course, or better yet, a 2% incline course.
    I think your zones aren't set quite right, if that's your best average power for a 20 minute TT... 243 watts or so should be the top of your endurance zone (zone 2).
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    Sounds like you are out of shape. Numbers move quickly when you are out of shape, so don't worry. But make sure you start training.
    This. I wouldn't put too much stock in this # if you're untrained. If you're embarking on a training plan that involves a conventional base building period at first, then you'll be doing zone 2 and zone 3 type riding, where you can let RPE be your guide rather than wattage test #s.

    A more meaningful test value would be to do the test following a 'rest' / 'recovery' week following your first month of building up.

  13. #13
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    I can do about 300 an hour so probably around 600 for 30 minits

  14. #14
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    What head unit are you using with your Powertap? When you connect the head unit to your computer copy and paste a copy of the original ride file into a folder on your computer so that it's available later. You can then put the same file into several different programs to see which you prefer.

    The software that you use to look at your files makes quite a big difference to how useful the power meter data is. I'd suggest that you use Golden Cheetah 3.0 (beta development version) or WKO+ 3.0 in preference to CycleOps Poweragent.

    The newest version of Golden Cheetah 3.0 (beta development version) looks really good. It's also free. The latest version includes Normalized Power, TSS and IF metrics, along with a calendar, GPS map of your route where you can read off power readings for sections on the map, best interval power outputs for individual sections etc.

    I was trying it out now and it's much better than the previous Golden Cheetah 2.0. (hold down shift and left mouse drag on the ride screen to zoom in and out, hold left mouse and drag to create a new interval selection which you can then edit or delete from the intervals tab on the left hand side.) You have to spend a little time in Tools - Options choosing what you want displayed (NP, TSS, IF, w/kg need adding to the Summary Metrics and Interval Metrics displays manually). You still can't change the scales of individual traces though which is a major drawback.

    Golden Cheetah 3.0 (latest development build) free download
    Golden Cheetah Development Builds - Remember, these are "release" builds of the current development code.

    WKO+ 3.0 costs money but is useful for looking closely at your files and working with the data. The graph section is still more versatile than Golden Cheetah. The downside of WKO+ 3.0 is that it hasn't been updated in well over a year and a lot of the report sections aren't great. It's been neglected in favour of the online Training Peaks website which is a shame. Despite that it's widely used and quite useful. You get a free trial so you can download it to have a look.

    WKO+ 3.0 trial version download:
    TrainingPeaks :: Download Software : WKO+, ERG+, CRS+, Real3D

    Pictured below: Golden Cheetah 3.0. Have the sidebar displayed to quickly jump between settings and individual intervals
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Whats your current 30 minute TT power average?-golden_cheetah_3.jpg  


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2fst4u View Post
    Just did a 30 min TT last week outside on the road bike with my new powertap. This was my first TT using power. I averaged 200watts for 30 minutes/157 HR. This seems weak, no? In my defense, I'm out of shape and just started base.

    I finished off my season well in sport and am going to expert so just curious about what numbers others like me (I'm 39) are hitting right now. I don't really have anything to compare at this point.
    Another way to compare your data with other people would be to upload some of your power files to Strava.com. You'll need a GPS enabled head unit for that but then it allows you to see what times other people did for the same sections of route. Bear in mind that power on Strava is only a rough estimate unless there's a small lightning icon next to the power numbers. That's a sign that the data is from a power meter.

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatcm View Post
    I can do about 300 an hour so probably around 600 for 30 minits
    He he, yeh right!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74 View Post
    I think your zones aren't set quite right, if that's your best average power for a 20 minute TT... 243 watts or so should be the top of your endurance zone (zone 2).
    Yes, I am actually going for retesting this week. The endurance number was set about 2.5 months ago. I had been off the bike entirely for about 4.5 months and then only back on the bike for a week or two when I did that first test.

    I feel like my real endurance pace should be around 240-250W. At 215W I literally don't even work up a sweat.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatcm View Post
    I can do about 300 an hour so probably around 600 for 30 minutes
    Different people have different strengths so there isn't really a set rule that applies to everyone. When you get past the very shortest durations the power outputs tend to become closer together. With an FTP of 300 watts you'd maybe be looking at a estimated best of around 315 watts for 30 minutes. You should be able to read the actual figures off from your power data. In WKO+3.0 you can set a graph to show your best power outputs at different durations to see how they change over time.

    PowerTap Disc

    The graph below shows my best power outputs from 2011. It's a shortened graph to make it a bit clearer without as many different durations as I normally have visible. The best power outputs are fairly closely grouped and my trend is very much the other way. I'm not great at shorter durations but then there isn't that much drop off in power outputs over longer periods. 180 and 240 minutes are lower but still in the same sort of area also.

    Pictured below: My best power outputs from 2011. Estimated weight of 149lbs/ 67.59kg for the w/kg figures but I was lighter than that for some of the year. Edit: Fixed typo
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Whats your current 30 minute TT power average?-best-power-outputs-2011.jpg  

    Last edited by WR304; 01-30-2012 at 05:07 PM.

  19. #19
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    Speaking of which:

    Training with Purpose

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jared_j View Post
    This. I wouldn't put too much stock in this # if you're untrained. If you're embarking on a training plan that involves a conventional base building period at first, then you'll be doing zone 2 and zone 3 type riding, where you can let RPE be your guide rather than wattage test #s.

    A more meaningful test value would be to do the test following a 'rest' / 'recovery' week following your first month of building up.
    Right, I've noticed using PE for zones 1 and 2 in base works really well. The power and HR numbers don't match up well with PE on the trainer so as of now I'm tracking power and HR but using PE as the guide.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatcm View Post
    I can do about 300 an hour so probably around 600 for 30 minits
    When will we see you in Le Tour? And what team are you riding for?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    Different people have different strengths so there isn't really a set rule that applies to everyone.

    Pictured below: My best power outputs from 2011. Estimated weight of 149lbs/ 67.59kg for the w/kg figures but I was lighter than that for some of the year. Edit: Fixed typo
    Thanks for the recommendations. I'm just starting out with power so this is cool info. I will try out the other programs for power. It looks like your 30 min TT power is about 30w more than mine. I was on rolling hills with winter clothes and out of shape. I'm sure I'll have better numbers in a month.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2fst4u View Post
    Thanks for the recommendations. I'm just starting out with power so this is cool info. I will try out the other programs for power. It looks like your 30 min TT power is about 30w more than mine. I was on rolling hills with winter clothes and out of shape. I'm sure I'll have better numbers in a month.
    If you're not that fit at the moment then you should be able to improve quite a lot over the course of the season. It's one of the good things about a power meter as you can track your peaks and troughs. If you look at my top 10 power bests in post #18 the majority of power bests are concentrated between March and August 2011. There weren't many power bests set early in the year. I'd guess that you'll probably see a similar pattern develop.

    Your choice of route will make a big difference to this sort of test as well. Rolling hills aren't ideal as your power tends to drop on downhill sections, dragging your overall average power down. A route that's totally flat, or a constant climb (if you're lucky enough to have 30 minute plus climbs nearby) is likely to result in higher power numbers than over a rolling course. I'd try doing tests over different routes to see how the power outputs compare.

    Don't get too caught up in "chasing numbers" though. It's easy to focus on trying to improve a particular best power output, rather than working on other aspects of your riding. WKO+ 3.0 and its power profiles (as linked in post #2) are particularly bad for that because it only looks at short 5 second, 1 minute, 5 minute and 20 (or 60) minute durations. If you train for those specific durations it makes for a better profile but can be at the expense of doing more volume work. I ended up doing that a bit last year.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtncampbell View Post
    When will we see you in Le Tour? And what team are you riding for?
    Next year, unattached

  25. #25
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    It is always interesting to see other peoples numbers. Today I did a 20 minute tempo session at 260w (after blowing up in some 4 minute intervals, first 4 minute was 360w, second one Allison kicked my arse). Finished off with three 1000w peak sprints. It was a hard day...
    Try to be good.

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    Wish I had a power meter myself... the closest I have is a Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer, which has a power-estimation formula based on speed. Based on that, a 30-minute ballpark stat for me is 293 watts @ 168bpm average. I'm 42 and currently 157 pounds with a target weight of 150, got a ways to go.

    Anyway OP, keep up your program and have an awesome season

  27. #27
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    Actual watts doesn't matter. It's the watts per kilo that counts. My FTP is 4.57w/kg. I'm starting competitive mountain biking this year aftrer years of road cycling and long distance triathlon.

    For those of you with a power meter on your mountain bike, do you find it valuable when you ride? I dont feel like I have the time to look down to watch my 3s power like I do on my tri or road bikes. I'll probably still do all my intervals on the road. So how do you use it on your mountain bike?

  28. #28
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    Ryan Trebon usually averages between 470 and 485 watts for one of his 60 minute cyclocross races. That's a good point of reference to work towards.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexgonzalezmi View Post
    Actual watts doesn't matter. It's the watts per kilo that counts. My FTP is 4.57w/kg. I'm starting competitive mountain biking this year aftrer years of road cycling and long distance triathlon.

    For those of you with a power meter on your mountain bike, do you find it valuable when you ride? I dont feel like I have the time to look down to watch my 3s power like I do on my tri or road bikes. I'll probably still do all my intervals on the road. So how do you use it on your mountain bike?
    I have a Powertap on my mountain bike and an SRM on my road bike. I really like having it since the pacing feels completely different than the road, it helps keep my efforts in check.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexgonzalezmi View Post
    For those of you with a power meter on your mountain bike, do you find it valuable when you ride? I dont feel like I have the time to look down to watch my 3s power like I do on my tri or road bikes. I'll probably still do all my intervals on the road. So how do you use it on your mountain bike?
    I've used it for trail intervals (hill repeats, same as on road, only don't have to worry about cars) and it can be useful for post-ride analysis on courses, etc. or for training races.

    That said, I'm racing 29 this year and right now don't have mine built up on a 29" wheel, so likely won't have any offroad power this year. #pagingwhybotherme!

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexgonzalezmi View Post
    Actual watts doesn't matter. It's the watts per kilo that counts. My FTP is 4.57w/kg.

    Totally agree...hearing someone's power numbers alone isn't really that helpful.

    When I started out a friend of mine was putting out 255 Watts threshold power. I was really impressed as I was only able to do 211. My goal was to get to 255 W in order to be competitive with him. Once I got even to 240 I noticed that I was getting much faster than he was and that's when the watts/weight analysis really hit me.

    I'm now 165, or 75kg, and have threshold of 255, or 3.4W/kg.

    My friend is 195, or 88kg, and has threshold of 255, or 2.89W/kg.

    I started riding in July of 2011 and used the TCTP to get my wattage from my initial base of 211W and 2.63W/kg to my current 255W 3.4W/kg level.

    I can only dream of getting to 4.57 like Alexgonzalezmi but have set my goal to 4.0W/kg by the end of the year.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexgonzalezmi View Post
    For those of you with a power meter on your mountain bike, do you find it valuable when you ride? I dont feel like I have the time to look down to watch my 3s power like I do on my tri or road bikes. I'll probably still do all my intervals on the road. So how do you use it on your mountain bike?
    The power meter is quite useful for looking back at what you did during offroad rides. Often the limiting factor isn't how hard you can pedal but how much of that available power you can actually deliver whilst riding offroad on mixed terrain. There are some offroad power files and links in this thread:

    MTB power meter thread.

    When riding offroad it's not really possible to look at the head unit display all the time. It's more a case of a quick glance whenever possible, adjust pace slightly, ride along, quick glance, adjust pace slightly, ride along and so on. The harder the route the less you look at the display. I have one display on my Garmin Edge 500 set so that it only displays two items - 3 second power at the top of the display and then ride time below it. The larger figures make it easier to read whenever you look down. If you have lots of items displayed it makes the Garmin's screen text size too small to pick out.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonerider View Post
    Ryan Trebon usually averages between 470 and 485 watts for one of his 60 minute cyclocross races. That's a good point of reference to work towards.
    Cool. I will start learning how to slam dunk over people like Jordan too while I am at it..

    Also, yes, it is about strength/power to weight ratio. Someone racing at 185lbs better have more watts than his fellow competitor at 145lbs!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by string_wise View Post

    I'm now 165, or 75kg, and have threshold of 255, or 3.4W/kg.

    My friend is 195, or 88kg, and has threshold of 255, or 2.89W/kg.
    There's a local friend I compare with sometimes. He blows me away.

    We weigh exactly the same, 165, and we'll do these lunch time hammerhead group rides with 30 people. He typically breaks off with some other strong guys (strong Masters, and roadie Cat 1 & 2s), while I'm left in the chase peleton. He has a PT as well and I asked him to email me a file. It blew me away.

    His normalized power for the 40minutes was about 325W. Mine was 270ish. He hit 1350W peak a couple of times (by accident) to break up the group. Over 1000W 5-second. (I mean, this was a road group ride; it's not like he was going out trying to hit his best numbers).

    He''s so f$$king strong. He's a good Cat 2 roadie though.
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  35. #35
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    Often when I am climbing with my wife, between haggard breaths and through the haze produced by lack of oxygen I will look over at her power meter and see 250 watts. Which is really depressing, until I divide 250 by 49, and multiply that by 63, then I feel pretty dam proud of myself.


    Quote Originally Posted by string_wise View Post
    Totally agree...hearing someone's power numbers alone isn't really that helpful.

    When I started out a friend of mine was putting out 255 Watts threshold power. I was really impressed as I was only able to do 211. My goal was to get to 255 W in order to be competitive with him. Once I got even to 240 I noticed that I was getting much faster than he was and that's when the watts/weight analysis really hit me.

    I'm now 165, or 75kg, and have threshold of 255, or 3.4W/kg.

    My friend is 195, or 88kg, and has threshold of 255, or 2.89W/kg.

    I started riding in July of 2011 and used the TCTP to get my wattage from my initial base of 211W and 2.63W/kg to my current 255W 3.4W/kg level.

    I can only dream of getting to 4.57 like Alexgonzalezmi but have set my goal to 4.0W/kg by the end of the year.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2fst4u View Post
    Thanks for the recommendations. I'm just starting out with power so this is cool info. I will try out the other programs for power. It looks like your 30 min TT power is about 30w more than mine. I was on rolling hills with winter clothes and out of shape. I'm sure I'll have better numbers in a month.
    With a 4 week training cycle you will see those power numbers jump up quite a bit.

    I was in the same position this year because I took a few months off. After 4 weeks of very easy/quasi-structured training and my power test went up 20 watts.

    I didn't even generate that much weekly TSS because I've been mostly weight lifting. So those early season increases are pretty cool to experience.
    Turning the pedals faster every year.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by madisongrrl View Post
    With a 4 week training cycle you will see those power numbers jump up quite a bit.

    I was in the same position this year because I took a few months off. After 4 weeks of very easy/quasi-structured training and my power test went up 20 watts.

    I didn't even generate that much weekly TSS because I've been mostly weight lifting. So those early season increases are pretty cool to experience.

    I should probably add that my 20 minute power went from 172 to 192 watts at 115 lbs in the time frame.

    As I get into better shape and get into base training, my watts will be in the lower 200's and my weight about 110lbs.
    Turning the pedals faster every year.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatcm View Post
    Next year, unattached
    A team would probably just slow you down anyway.
    Get it unlocked.

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    Did a test about a month ago and was @ 255 W for 30 min. I'm de-trained currently. During my peak last summer it was about 308 for 30 minutes and I weighed about 158 lbs. Its funny b/c I can ride @ 215 watts for 4 hrs but can only do 255 w for 1/2 hour. I'm building up my one hr power and AWC right now in preparation for the AZ state road race on April 21st. After though my training will change to get ready for the Barn burner 104 and Leadville.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    Another way to compare your data with other people would be to upload some of your power files to Strava.com. You'll need a GPS enabled head unit for that but then it allows you to see what times other people did for the same sections of route. Bear in mind that power on Strava is only a rough estimate unless there's a small lightning icon next to the power numbers. That's a sign that the data is from a power meter.

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    BTW Strava power data is soo wrong. I can upload the same file to WKO and to Strava and I dont know what the heck strava does but it always shows the power way low. Its doing some of its own calculations on the raw data for some reason.

    WKO for power in my opinion.

    BTW you want to do 20m FTP test not 30m. Everything is pretty much based on 20m. And as others have said, use normalized power not avg.

    Your power will go up pretty quick the more you ride. At this point I pretty much use it for the IF (PE) numbers when I ride road. It gives you a pretty accurate number to match to what you thought your PE was, and then you can correlate it a little easier in yourself. Then your PE actually gets more meaning after a while.

    Its a tool, only a tool

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeeke View Post
    BTW Strava power data is soo wrong. I can upload the same file to WKO and to Strava and I dont know what the heck strava does but it always shows the power way low. Its doing some of its own calculations on the raw data for some reason.

    WKO for power in my opinion.

    BTW you want to do 20m FTP test not 30m. Everything is pretty much based on 20m. And as others have said, use normalized power not avg.

    Your power will go up pretty quick the more you ride. At this point I pretty much use it for the IF (PE) numbers when I ride road. It gives you a pretty accurate number to match to what you thought your PE was, and then you can correlate it a little easier in yourself. Then your PE actually gets more meaning after a while.

    Its a tool, only a tool
    Agree. Strava is waaay off if you leave it to calculate/estimate your power. Most of the time it's higher than actual power when I've compared it to my power meter. But I do love Strava overall.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeeke View Post
    BTW Strava power data is soo wrong. I can upload the same file to WKO and to Strava and I dont know what the heck strava does but it always shows the power way low. Its doing some of its own calculations on the raw data for some reason.

    WKO for power in my opinion.

    BTW you want to do 20m FTP test not 30m. Everything is pretty much based on 20m. And as others have said, use normalized power not avg.

    Your power will go up pretty quick the more you ride. At this point I pretty much use it for the IF (PE) numbers when I ride road. It gives you a pretty accurate number to match to what you thought your PE was, and then you can correlate it a little easier in yourself. Then your PE actually gets more meaning after a while.

    Its a tool, only a tool
    I'm using an outline and some workouts for base from Gale Bernhardt's "training plans for cyclists" which outlines doing a 30min Threshold test with a power meter and subtracting 5%. I'll do a 20 minute test and see what the results are.
    Racing and Training Blog
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeeke View Post
    BTW Strava power data is soo wrong. I can upload the same file to WKO and to Strava and I dont know what the heck strava does but it always shows the power way low. Its doing some of its own calculations on the raw data for some reason.
    Uploading Power Data to Different Websites
    Most uploaded files on Strava appear fairly reliable when it comes to timings and speed. There are a few odd uploaded files, especially if you're comparing offroad segments where GPS speed has been used, but the majority of files seem to be about right. Road based rides seem more likely to be comparable than the offroad rides.

    The estimated power figures that Strava produces if you don't have a power meter can be quite inaccurate though. They rely upon the user information entered to estimate power output. My uploaded power meter data in Strava seems to be reasonable. For the files that I've uploaded to Strava the summaries, including power figures, aren't identical but are fairly near to the WKO+ 3.0 figures. I'm using a Garmin Edge 500.

    My Garmin Edge 500 settings for use with a Powertap hub and WKO+ 3.0
    PowerTap Disc

    Correcting Garmin power files in WKO+ 3.0
    PowerTap Disc

    Some of the differences you're noticing are probably going to be because of the way that different programs deal with and interpret stationary time from the raw files. Along with Strava another popular website where you need to pay attention to that is Garmin Connect. Strava and Garmin Connect treat stationary time in uploaded files differently when calculating average power.

    Garmin Connect and Strava
    I uploaded the same Garmin Edge 500 .fit file to Strava, Garmin Connect and also into WKO+ 3.0. The results are pictured below. WKO+ 3.0 (Raw Original) is the unedited file that came directly from the head unit. This includes all stationary time in both the average speed and average power calculations. WKO+ 3.0 (Edited File) is the corrected file where I manually identified stationary time. Total time for the edited file is displayed in brackets and moving time is displayed alongside. I spent around 7 minutes stationary during this ride opening and closing farm gates.

    - WKO+ 3.0 average power including stationary time 154 watts
    - WKO+ 3.0 average power excluding stationary time 160 watts
    - Garmin Connect average power 153 watts (must include stationary time in calculation)
    - Strava average power 161 watts (must exclude stationary time from calculation)

    In WKO+ 3.0 the edited file is used for all the WKO+ 3.0 reports and the Performance Management Chart. If you don't identify stationary time in the file then it skews total riding time, average speed, average power, normalized power, IF and TSS in all your WKO+ 3.0 reports and summaries.

    When you look at the two online ride summaries there are a few noticeable patterns. By comparing the website average watts figure with the WKO+ 3.0 figures you can see whether the website is including stationary time or not. It's important to be aware of this type of difference. Say that you go for a ride with a friend who has a power meter too. Post ride one of you uploads their power file to Strava whilst the other uploads their power file to Garmin Connect. If you were to then compare average power between the two uploaded files it wouldn't be an "apples to apples" comparison. The more time you spend stationary the bigger the differences will be.

    Garmin Connect automatically splits the ride into moving and stationary time for calculating average speeds. It gives you both moving and elapsed time average speeds but doesn't do the same thing for average power. The overall average speed in Garmin Connect summaries is the lower figure which includes stationary time. Average power in Garmin Connect includes any stationary time also. That means average power will always be lower viewed in Garmin Connect than the same ride in Strava.

    Strava automatically splits the ride into moving and stationary time for calculating average speed. It only displays the higher moving average speed. It does the same thing for power also. Average power in Strava is the higher moving average excluding any stationary time.

    The amount of climbing varies between program also. 2225 ft in the orginal WKO+ 3.0 file (based on the barometric altimeter I think) but then it's 2539 ft elevation in Garmin Connect and 2524ft in Strava.

    Golden Cheetah
    Golden Cheetah 3.0 (development build) is different again. In Golden Cheetah 3.0 (development build) your average power doesn't match the average speed. With the same .fit file as above it gives you the average speed excluding stationary time but then the average power includes stationary time. Average speed 13.2mph, average power 154 watts.

    If you're using Golden Cheetah 3.0 (development build) then you can do the same as in WKO+ 3.0 and manually cut out all the stationary time which fixes the file. Go to the edit tab in Golden Cheetah and delete the rows with zero speed (always leave a 2 second gap from stopping before cutting the rows out and leave a 2 second gap just before you set off again.) Save the file after doing that and it sorts out the file statistics. It's a slower process than in WKO+ 3.0 as you have to scroll through all the individual lines of data. Golden Cheetah 3.0 (development build) is a beta version so hopefully it will be fixed for the final release.

    Pictured below: Comparison of the same ride file uploaded into Garmin Connect.com, Strava.com and WKO+ 3.0 (edited and un-edited summaries). An average power of roughly 160 watts indicates that the 7 minutes of stationary time during the ride is excluded from the power calculation. An average power of roughly 154 watts means that the 7 minutes of stationary time is included in the power calculation.

    The same .fit file in Golden Cheetah 3.0 (development build) as it originally appears and then after I've manually edited it to correct the data. Note how the average speed and average power in the original file don't match. It should be either average speed 12.6 mph / average power 154 watts (including stationary time in both calculations) or average speed 13.2 mph / average power 160 watts.(excluding stationary time from both calculations).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Whats your current 30 minute TT power average?-garmin_connect_strava_wko_28-11-2011.jpg  

    Whats your current 30 minute TT power average?-golden_cheetah_editing_28-11-2011.jpg  

    Last edited by WR304; 02-09-2012 at 03:43 PM.

  44. #44
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    I understand the importance of power when training but I have to laugh when people start throwing their numbers around. It's just a number and only matters to you and your coach. Want to impress people, link to your USA cycling results.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexgonzalezmi View Post
    Actual watts doesn't matter. It's the watts per kilo that counts. My FTP is 4.57w/kg. I'm starting competitive mountain biking this year aftrer years of road cycling and long distance triathlon.

    For those of you with a power meter on your mountain bike, do you find it valuable when you ride? I dont feel like I have the time to look down to watch my 3s power like I do on my tri or road bikes. I'll probably still do all my intervals on the road. So how do you use it on your mountain bike?
    Mainly for post-workout analysis. I've found that in short mtn bike races (less than 2 hrs) power between 30 seconds and 3 minutes are the real deal breakers. You really have to be able to surge hard and repeatedly. If you haven't been training your AWC you won't do well. Its not a steady state effort for sure. Racing road crits helps my mtn bike racing (though I despise them).

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    I understand the importance of power when training but I have to laugh when people start throwing their numbers around. It's just a number and only matters to you and your coach. Want to impress people, link to your USA cycling results.
    I agree, results do matter. However it can be far more constructive for an athlete to base their goals off a less subjective measure (like watts).

    I find it interesting to see other peoples numbers for comparison sake. Saw Adam Morkas numbers for some 3 min. Intervals last year and for grins I tried to match his effort...

    I didn't grin much and fell way short of his numbers. :-)
    Try to be good.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiva View Post
    Mainly for post-workout analysis. I've found that in short mtn bike races (less than 2 hrs) power between 30 seconds and 3 minutes are the real deal breakers. You really have to be able to surge hard and repeatedly. If you haven't been training your AWC you won't do well. Its not a steady state effort for sure. Racing road crits helps my mtn bike racing (though I despise them).
    There has been a lot of debate as the best predictor of performance for a MTB race. My experience is a watts/kg for 20 minutes is a pretty good predictor. 30 second to three minute power is important, but it seems that once you get into a race, those abilities are directly tied to your FTP.

    If you look a race file, the wattages are never that high above FTP. If some one is on top form, after the first 20 minutes the best three minute powers are at most 115% of FTP.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    I understand the importance of power when training but I have to laugh when people start throwing their numbers around. It's just a number and only matters to you and your coach. Want to impress people, link to your USA cycling results.
    Now that's a good idea.

    People should post their 20 minute power / weight numbers AND race results. Any correlation found could be interesting.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by brentos View Post
    Now that's a good idea.

    People should post their 20 minute power / weight numbers AND race results. Any correlation found could be interesting.
    I would be willing to bet that it you could predict MOST of the outcomes of races given that information. The exception would be when the best climbers (as designated by power/weight) cannot descend well and are faced with a technical course.
    Try to be good.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by brentos View Post
    People should post their 20 minute power / weight numbers AND race results. Any correlation found could be interesting.
    Or we could cut straight to the chase and just whip out some rulers and measure our junk.

    You cannot control for variation in how athletes test their 20 min numbers (fresh? 5 min blowout like Coggan says? on the flats? on a climb?), variation in competitiveness and field size of the respective races they're doing (insert "Expert in ___ state is sooo much faster than expert in ____ state" claims here), etc. It'd be very noisy.

    But it would be a good chestbeating exercise for those who choose to partake. And you'd get a decidedly nonrandom sample of guys who think they're hot stuff and want to brag about their numbers on the internet.

    Good cross-sectional data on power/weight ratios isn't really publicly available, so ultimately making a decision on the validity of this metric as a lay-person rider is going to be a question of faith, e.g. trusting coaches and researchers who have access to the data and publicly state their conclusions.

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