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  1. #76
    DLd
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2fst4u View Post
    Very cool...whats your age weight class etc? I'm 40, race expert class, 153#. Looking at your numbers you would probably pull past me after an hour to an hour and a half and beat me by 2-3 minutes in a 2-2.5 hour race
    I have a feeling my 120 minute number is partially due to having the terrain suitable to extracting high performance for that length of time, If you had a solid 2.5 hour climb near you, you would probably put up a similar number.

    A lot of the numbers are for time intervals that I don't do intervals for. Like, I don't think I've ever done 5s sprints. Also, I'll do 20s Tabatas sometimes, but I don't think I have any 30sec intervals in my training. I'll rectify that situation in the upcoming weeks. I'll throw in some 5s sprints, some rest, and a 30 sec sprint just so I can see what numbers I'm really capable of. Y'know, for science

    My workout yesterday was supposed to be 3.5 hours at Endurance, followed by 30 minutes at Tempo. I was short on time, so knocked it down to only 2.5 hours at endurance, but I really wanted to see if I could move up my 20 min, so for the first 20 minutes of the Tempo workout, I really focused on being in high Tempo/Threshold. I hadn't looked at what my 20 min was beforehand though, but I figured keeping it above 260 would be good. I didn't have time to download it yet though. My current 20 min was 269, and seems to be from an apparently random training ride last year. It doesn't look I was doing a 20 minute test or anything, so I'm eager to see if I beat it, actually trying to this time.
    Last edited by DLd; 12-08-2012 at 11:02 AM. Reason: I had more to say
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLd View Post
    How much rest between the 2x20's? That sounds like a good workout. I just did some 4x6's, but I'd like to try the 2x20's. I would imagine that working on your 20's all the time would tend to bring up your 20min test power, but it seems like an effective range to train for MTB racing, especially cat1/pro. There's only so much you can do on the short 1 hour weekday workouts.
    I usually take 5 minutes between intervals to recover a bit. My second 20 is usually easier than the first (properly warmed up and used to the effort). It's usually a 1-hour workout - 10 warmup, 20 on, 5 off, 20 on, 5 cooldown.

    I occasionally do 1 x 40 instead for variety, it's really not much harder. 90% of my best power for any given duration is noticably easier than 100%.

    Also, any interval of 10 minutes (at least) or greater works threshold directly. My goal is to spend at least 40 minutes in zone 4 during these workouts. I just don't usually break it up smaller than 20 minute chunks.

    I'll do 1 hour straight at 90-95% FTP every now and again as well. You get used to it.
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  3. #78
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    Why are my numbers so much higher when climbing compared to flat?

    My 5 min hill climb timetrial number is 6.1 w/kg and my 5 min interval on flat is only 5.52 w/kg...

    Is this because I am a better climber than flat TTer? Or because I was racing on the hill climb and training on the interval? Or something else?

    Im still a noob to power. The only test I have done is 5 mins, and MAX power.(for fun)

    I really want to get a solid FTP test, 5sec, and 30sec though. But that wont happen until March or so...
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatcm View Post
    I can do about 300 an hour so probably around 600 for 30 minits
    umm, no.
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepo5669 View Post
    Why are my numbers so much higher when climbing compared to flat?

    My 5 min hill climb timetrial number is 6.1 w/kg and my 5 min interval on flat is only 5.52 w/kg...

    Is this because I am a better climber than flat TTer? Or because I was racing on the hill climb and training on the interval? Or something else?

    Im still a noob to power. The only test I have done is 5 mins, and MAX power.(for fun)

    I really want to get a solid FTP test, 5sec, and 30sec though. But that wont happen until March or so...
    climbing numbers are generally higher then flat speed numbers for a lot of people. The neuromuscular demand of climbing isnt the same as riding the flats. Wind resistance plays a role as well. Think going down a gentle descent where you try to hit FTP, it feels much harder then hitting FTP going up that same small hill.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatcm View Post
    I can do about 300 an hour so probably around 600 for 30 minits
    sick watts bro..

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepo5669 View Post
    Why are my numbers so much higher when climbing compared to flat?

    My 5 min hill climb timetrial number is 6.1 w/kg and my 5 min interval on flat is only 5.52 w/kg...

    Is this because I am a better climber than flat TTer? Or because I was racing on the hill climb and training on the interval? Or something else?

    Im still a noob to power. The only test I have done is 5 mins, and MAX power.(for fun)

    I really want to get a solid FTP test, 5sec, and 30sec though. But that wont happen until March or so...
    What he said. On flat you only have one resistance source really: wind.

    On a shallow hill, you have wind and gravity.

    That is some hella power, BTW. I'm only 4.7 at that time range.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLd View Post
    A lot of the numbers are for time intervals that I don't do intervals for. Like, I don't think I've ever done 5s sprints. Also, I'll do 20s Tabatas sometimes, but I don't think I have any 30sec intervals in my training. I'll rectify that situation in the upcoming weeks. I'll throw in some 5s sprints, some rest, and a 30 sec sprint just so I can see what numbers I'm really capable of. Y'know, for science
    Same here-most of my numbers are from just riding and one road race. The only numbers I have from a "real" test is the 30 minute TT I did a couple weeks ago.

    I most likely will be testing power throughout all zones soon enough and retest throughout this season for performance markers.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devincicx View Post
    climbing numbers are generally higher then flat speed numbers for a lot of people. The neuromuscular demand of climbing isnt the same as riding the flats. Wind resistance plays a role as well. Think going down a gentle descent where you try to hit FTP, it feels much harder then hitting FTP going up that same small hill.

    Thanks, that makes since. KINDA. You would think you could put the same numbers down in the wind or up a hill. Could some of it be mental? I am a poor flat TTer...

    Are those charts comparing power to fitness using hill climb numbers? Or flat TT numbers?
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poncharelli View Post
    What he said. On flat you only have one resistance source really: wind.

    On a shallow hill, you have wind and gravity.

    That is some hella power, BTW. I'm only 4.7 at that time range.
    Thanks dude. Im not as fast as those numbers show... First time the borrowed PM read 459w after a 5min hill climb time trial, I thought It was broken. I stole the record by 1 second from a kid who raced for BMC-Hincapie development with that effort

    There is way more to mass start bike racing than that 5 min all out effort. Recovery and repeatability obviously play just as big of a factor.

    I need to get more testing done to figure out what gives and where my weaknesses are. Im still a noob to the sport at just over 1.5 years of racing and 2.5 of riding. I guess a coach would help.
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepo5669 View Post
    Thanks, that makes since. KINDA. You would think you could put the same numbers down in the wind or up a hill. Could some of it be mental? I am a poor flat TTer...

    Are those charts comparing power to fitness using hill climb numbers? Or flat TT numbers?
    My personal experience and others is that yeah, going uphill over a given time/distance will increase watt numbers. it's "easier" to get those numbers cheated up higher by hitting a long climb or series of climbs. My 90 and 120 personal power records are all on hilly courses. Although when doing a lactate test/ TT for testing purposes it should done on a flat course or slight uphill (2.5 grade) to keep it accurate.
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2fst4u View Post
    My personal experience and others is that yeah, going uphill over a given time/distance will increase watt numbers. it's "easier" to get those numbers cheated up higher by hitting a long climb or series of climbs. My 90 and 120 personal power records are all on hilly courses. Although when doing a lactate test/ TT for testing purposes it should done on a flat course or slight uphill (2.5 grade) to keep it accurate.
    It's important to remember it's not "cheating up" by having constant resistance, like a hill, headwind, etc. Watts are watts. If you can do it on a hill, you can learn to do it on the flats, or even downhills (as long as you have sufficiently high gearing).

    That said, there's a skill to putting out constant power over varying terrain. It can be done, even on downhills, it just takes more focus and mental attention.

    I do all of my testing and 90% of my intervals on the same indoor trainer. Makes for constant resistance which means I can focus on pushing the pedals and making myself hurt. It also makes my workouts repeatable and consistent.

    I do some longer intervals on rolling and hilly terrain as well to get used to terrain I see in road races.

    If I were looking to set an outdoor power record, though, I'd look for a steady grade that it took me 20 minutes to ascend. None of those nearby, sadly.
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    pre fatherhood: 20 minute pb 353
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74 View Post
    It's important to remember it's not "cheating up" by having constant resistance, like a hill, headwind, etc. Watts are watts. If you can do it on a hill, you can learn to do it on the flats, or even downhills (as long as you have sufficiently high gearing).

    That said, there's a skill to putting out constant power over varying terrain. It can be done, even on downhills, it just takes more focus and mental attention.

    I do all of my testing and 90% of my intervals on the same indoor trainer. Makes for constant resistance which means I can focus on pushing the pedals and making myself hurt. It also makes my workouts repeatable and consistent.

    I do some longer intervals on rolling and hilly terrain as well to get used to terrain I see in road races.

    If I were looking to set an outdoor power record, though, I'd look for a steady grade that it took me 20 minutes to ascend. None of those nearby, sadly.
    I have a hard time maintaining my watts on shallow downhills! Is this a leg speed issue perhaps? Watts are watts ONLY if you can apply them to various terrains imo.

    Maybe I need to work on leg speed?

    This whole pwr mtr thing is new for me also... Do you feel that most folks try to find a subtle 20 climb to test watts?

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74 View Post
    It's important to remember it's not "cheating up" by having constant resistance, like a hill, headwind, etc. Watts are watts. If you can do it on a hill, you can learn to do it on the flats, or even downhills (as long as you have sufficiently high gearing).

    That said, there's a skill to putting out constant power over varying terrain. It can be done, even on downhills, it just takes more focus and mental attention.

    I do all of my testing and 90% of my intervals on the same indoor trainer. Makes for constant resistance which means I can focus on pushing the pedals and making myself hurt. It also makes my workouts repeatable and consistent.

    I do some longer intervals on rolling and hilly terrain as well to get used to terrain I see in road races.

    If I were looking to set an outdoor power record, though, I'd look for a steady grade that it took me 20 minutes to ascend. None of those nearby, sadly.
    Good point. For me to reach the same numbers on flats (or indoor trainer/rollers) as a viscous climb takes a good deal of focus. On a steep enough hill though, there is no choice for the rider but to put out a very high wattage, other wise the rider would have to unclip and get off and push! This is what I meant by "cheating"... the hill provides the resistance which requires you to push hard on the pedals, you have no choice in the matter but on the flats it's a constant temptation to let off the gas.

    Also, I just got rollers and may need to do a large percentage of this seasons training on them- I like them way more than my trainer and was able to do my last 30m test on them with good results. Your ability to put out some good numbers on your trainer is encouraging.
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  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2fst4u View Post
    it's "easier" to get those numbers cheated up higher by hitting a long climb or series of climbs.
    When it comes to cheating up numbers, I'm the best.

    This is the formula (for shorter time periods):
    -Uphill
    -Shallow Climb
    -Pretty easy spin and good warmup before hill
    -In a group with guys around your level.
    This is how we start our Tuesday Night Worlds every week; straight into a 4-5 minute hill, where the first pitch is around 10%.

    But if I'm in a group where the riders are too strong (Cat 2+ roadies, Pro XC and up; for me), I wind up overshooting a reasonable power range right off the bat and just blow up, thus giving me lower average for 30s through 4 min time periods. Plus I mentally give up when the guys are too strong.

    If the guys are at my level (other roadie Cat 3s, for me), it makes everything better. I stay in a reasonable power range from the beginning, and I don't give up, since I should be staying these guys. Like hell if I get dropped!!
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2fst4u View Post
    Good point. For me to reach the same numbers on flats (or indoor trainer/rollers) as a viscous climb takes a good deal of focus. On a steep enough hill though, there is no choice for the rider but to put out a very high wattage, other wise the rider would have to unclip and get off and push! This is what I meant by "cheating"... the hill provides the resistance which requires you to push hard on the pedals, you have no choice in the matter but on the flats it's a constant temptation to let off the gas.

    Also, I just got rollers and may need to do a large percentage of this seasons training on them- I like them way more than my trainer and was able to do my last 30m test on them with good results. Your ability to put out some good numbers on your trainer is encouraging.
    It's also dependent upon the type of trainer. My Lemond Revolution has a lot of inertia from the large flywheel that kills the "dead spot" in the pedal stroke you feel on most trainers. It feels much more like riding on the road, which means (IMO) that the training is more applicable to real-world riding.

    It's harder to keep wattage up on most (low-inertia) trainers, and I'm not convinced the extra effort translates to riding, due to having to alter the pedal stroke relative to outdoor riding. Unless all of your races are uphill, through muddy grass, with a flat tire.
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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    I have a hard time maintaining my watts on shallow downhills! Is this a leg speed issue perhaps? Watts are watts ONLY if you can apply them to various terrains imo.

    Maybe I need to work on leg speed?

    This whole pwr mtr thing is new for me also... Do you feel that most folks try to find a subtle 20 climb to test watts?
    No, it just requires focus to upshift as soon as it gets easier to pedal and ignore that feeling of "I'm already going fast enough, I can soft-pedal a bit". You can do it at a lower cadence with high force or higher cadence with lower force. Sometimes a higher-than-usual gear with lower cadence helps on steeper downhills.

    You need to pedal through the entire stroke a little more on downhills as well, you can get away with "pedaling squares" a bit more on climbs and still keep wattage high, it seems.
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  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatcm View Post
    I can do about 300 an hour so probably around 600 for 30 minits
    :
    Calibrate your equipment :
    watts on earth the simple math formula is as follows :
    ( watts ) x ( seconds ) = ( 1360 ) x ( pounds ) :
    @ 20 mph :
    On a 4.41 % grade :
    Watts is watts : 300
    Seconds is coasting time in seconds to desend 1,000 feet in elevation : 771
    Pounds is total bike & rider weight : 170
    This means you can truly generate 300w if you can truly cover 20 miles in one hour on flat ground :
    Climb that same grade at 20 mph you are generating 600w

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