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  1. #1
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    USACycling Rule-book question... Pacing Another Rider

    During my wife's race this past weekend, there was another woman who was paced during the race by her significant other. This guy was leading her, coaching her and encouraging her throughout the entire race.

    This was in an Expert/Pro race over a distance of 25 miles. I was pretty pissed. If you can't ride your own race at this level, maybe you shouldn't be at that level.

    I spoke to the race referee who also had noticed the assistance. While he agreed that it wasn't exactly fair, he didn't think it was against any rule. I just did my own research and there appears to be NO rule against this... provided that the guy was legitimately registered for the Expert men's race and was therefore authorized to be 'on course' at that time.

    Anyone have an opinion or know of any specific rule?

    Seems unfair and unsportsmanlike to me.

    Imagine if this happened in a woman's road race... a male racer waited on the side of the road for the woman's race to pass and jumped in to work for a female rider.
    TTUB - Ventura County California

  2. #2
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    Mixed category racing creates some interesting dynamics.

    Riders are constantly paced and blocked by riders in other categories. This makes enforcement of this rule really hard. The case you described certainly doesn't sound right to me.

    Fortunately the benefits of pacing for MTB racing are minimal. A race where you average under 15mph offers minimal advantage to sitting on.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  3. #3
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    SO you are saying that she drafted and had an advantage or he was behind her pushing her pace? Did you witness this or did your wife?

    I'd recommend that your wife make a move to pass and get in front of him, and he can then realize the awkwardness of making a two person coached pass to get back around. I once paced my wife from behind after she passed me (blew an unmarked turn while going ham and got lost), I made every effort to not interfere with the race and other women one bit. My coaching was limited to "you HAVE to pass this girl, she is holding you up." I have to say despite my race being blown and having traveled 500 miles to "race" for 19 minutes, this was a fun experience.

    If you have a constant issue with this, just go talk to the guy and propose your road race analogy? Maybe he had a huge mechanical and it was a one time thing?

    I see dads doing this with their kids occasionally.

  4. #4
    LMN
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    When I think about it many, many years ago my wife and i were about the same speed. We use to always end up around each other in mass start races. At the time I was very careful to never pace her, I would follow her and ask the guys who were blocking her on the downhills to get out of the way.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  5. #5
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    LMN - My wife and I are in different categories (she is Cat 1, I am Cat 2) but we often race together in mass start endurance races. We are very close. During one race last year, we even crossed the line hand-in-hand. When we cross paths out on the course we usually taunt each other. Above all, we each ride our own races. I usually start fast and she sometimes will ride me down. When around her, I just make sure that I don't pace a competitor up to her or 'up the road' away from her.

    FJSnoozer - I totally get the Dad's and kids coaching... but this shouldn't be going on at the Expert/Elite/Pro level.

    I understand that drafting isn't a big deal on the MTB. The two aspects of pacing I was most concerned about are:
    • This was a very technical course, lot's of tricky lines, ruts, fast scary downhills and turns. Having a trusted wheel to follow and lead you through the correct lines would have been a huge advantage on this course.
    • There is a physiological advantage to having someone set pace and encourage you through an entire race.


    When multiple fields are on-course together, there is often intermingling. In my mind, that is an equal opportunity advantage/disadvantage for everyone. But when you have one person who has intentionally waited back to assist one specific other rider for the entire duration of the race... that's where it becomes unfair.

    I did see this happen in a race last year also. I am waiting for the results to be published so I can compare names and see if it was the same couple. If so, you bet I will be having a conversation with them at the next race. While the ref did not take any official action, I think he did speak with her about the issue. Hope that helped.

    Thanks for letting me vent... to be honest, this is a lot of sour grapes. It was a long, hot race... my wife was ahead of this woman most of the day but the guy paced by her with the woman in tow late in the race... causing my wife to miss the podium.

    FYI - My wife is 54 and was racing against a bunch of 20 year olds. The top podium went to a pro. I'm quite proud of her.
    TTUB - Ventura County California

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    I'd be surprised if he paid an entry fee, did you check? I follow my 9 year old daughter in cyclocross, but she is about 50 pounds and the grown-up beginners are on course with her. Quite a few parents follow the little kids, I yell (nicely) at the other dads to get out of the way when they are slowing a racer down.
    Kind of makes you want to register, get in front of this couple and ride a little slow in the singletrack and say that there's a good spot to pass 'just around the next corner'. - I don't encourage doing this, just a 'what if'.
    The best solution is for your wife to ride faster than this other woman/couple, is that possible?

  7. #7
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    jimPacNW - This is exactly what the ref said... while he agreed, it wasn't 'fair'... if the guy was registered for a race that was 'on-course' at the time, then there was no specific rule against it and no action he could take.
    Yes, the guy did have a number plate and appeared to be correctly registered. Kinda strange that this guy sacrificed his $50 and his entire race to help. There was no appearance of a mechanical that caused this guy to get dropped from his race and then decide to help a friend... it appeared to be a premeditated strategy.
    TTUB - Ventura County California

  8. #8
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    wow, then I guess you have the option to do the same thing if it sounds worth the effort.

  9. #9
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    Last I checked, road racing had a rule about not interfering with races that were not your own. MTB doesn't have that. Some are even mass start.

    I do agree that it's lame though.
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    It is lame, a man yelling at a women to pass is more likely to intimidate or make a women move. (sometimes). I think that if you had someone in front of you clearing out the other riders you would also not have to slow and speed up as much as someone that had to clear their own path. It would add up after a few laps.
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    Wow. Definitely irritating! Especially for someone at the cat1/expert level. I could see maybe it happening in a beginner race (or for juniors/kids), but you shouldn't be needing in-race coaching at higher levels.

    I've had my male teammates, friends, and boyfriend catch me in races, and the most they do for me is give me info on how far back the other girls are, which is really all I usually care about. Maybe give me a rabbit to chase for a few moments, but never have ever thought of pacing off of them intentionally! Actually, honestly, if my boyfriend was to pace me we'd probably end up in a screaming match in the middle of the woods, ha!

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    Bike racers (especially cx) have more of a sense of appropriateness than other racers (not saying it's a bad thing): I read a car racing book a couple of years ago by Mark Donahue called 'the unfair advantage', and part of what I took from it is that car racers did/do consider that anything not expressly forbidden by the rules is legal, and if it gives you an advantage you should do it, you're almost obligated to do it. It's a good read btw. I think of that when I race my mtb on a cx course where I think it might be better; what will the other guys think?, -it's legal in my series so why not?.
    That might be more their perspective; it's not against the rules, big deal?, so why not? It would be interesting if at more important races we started seeing 'hired guns' riding the same bike (size, everything) shadowing the real racer, guess who's bike always seems to be the one that gets a flat?, or breaks a chain?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTUB View Post
    This guy was leading her, coaching her and encouraging her throughout the entire race.
    Strong remarks you are making, yet I somehow realize you are just making that up, unless you managed to watch them for the entire race. Part of it seems an exaggeration made up by you to further support your point.

    Let's suppose that happened and just like you said, they aren't breaking any rule. Is it unsportsmanlike? This isn't a TT where it is strictly forbidden to gain an advantage by drafting, many do draft using other competitors, so maybe the couple thought they were being completely legal and within the spirit of the sport.

    You seem to be pissed off because your wife missed the podium, but I fail too see the unfairness of it, you could help your wife in the same manner. If something is not prohibited do you honestly think competitors won't try to gain an advantage even if the actions are not socially acceptable?

    Specially in the elite field, you will find athletes willing to do anything within the legal grounds to win, after all they are there to compete and succeed.You seem to think the most trained athlete is the one who deserves to win, which is not the case.
    Last edited by TDLover; 03-21-2017 at 05:54 PM.

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    TDLover - There were many others who noticed it at different points in the race, my wife was in proximity to it during several prolonged sections of the course and the USAC Ref even noticed it also... not a figment of my imagination. But to your point... yes, I am venting a little here to be sure... and I admitted as much in my earlier post. I appreciate ALL the discussion here in this forum.


    "You seem to think the most trained athlete is the one who deserves to win, which is not the case."
    This is actually something I really like about bike racing... it's also a chess game, the fittest rider doesn't always win. I actually like that.
    Road racing is full of strategy and teamwork. But always working off of fellow competitors who are in the same category and race.
    In MTB... I think you should put together your own race, not rely on outside assistance. If she had been pacing with teammates or even friends registered in the same race and category... I wouldn't have the slightest issue. For me, it's an issue of honor. I don't think it's an honorable thing to take an unfair advantage. The only reason it's not a rule is because it would be un-enforceable. In fact, there are such rules in road racing where it is easy to monitor. Furthermore, the ethic in MTB racing is that you receive no outside support and there are rules to that effect.

    The Motorsports analogy is interesting.
    Again, thanks to all for the dialogue! Good discussion.
    TTUB - Ventura County California

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDLover View Post
    Strong remarks you are making, yet I somehow realize you are just making that up, unless you managed to watch them for the entire race. Part of it seems an exaggeration made up by you to further support your point.

    Let's suppose that happened and just like you said, they aren't breaking any rule. Is it unsportsmanlike? This isn't a TT where it is strictly forbidden to gain an advantage by drafting and many do draft using other competitors, so maybe the couple think they are being completely legal and within the spirit of the sport.

    You seem to be pissed because your wife missed the podium, but I fail too see the unfairness of it, you could help your wife in the same manner. If something is not prohibited do you honestly think competitors won't try to gain an advantage even if the actions are not socially acceptable?

    Specially in the elite field, you will find athletes willing to do anything withing the legal grounds to win, after all they are there to compete and succeed.You seem to think the most trained athlete is the one who deserves to win, which is not the case.
    Part of XC racing is being unassisted. A man riding along with his spouse, coaching her, is helping her find the right line to take, as well as injecting her with self-confidence boosting talk which the other racers don't have the benefit of.

    In auto rally racing, this kind of assistance is so important that rally cars have co-drivers, but that's not in the sprit of XC Mountain Bike racing, which specifically prohibits technical assistance outside of pit zone.

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    Imagine if every racer had a "coach" riding along with them on the trail...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTUB View Post
    TDLover - There were many others who noticed it at different points in the race, my wife was in proximity to it during several prolonged sections of the course and the USAC Ref even noticed it also... not a figment of my imagination. But to your point... yes, I am venting a little here to be sure... and I admitted as much in my earlier post. I appreciate ALL the discussion here in this forum.


    "You seem to think the most trained athlete is the one who deserves to win, which is not the case."
    This is actually something I really like about bike racing... it's also a chess game, the fittest rider doesn't always win. I actually like that.
    Road racing is full of strategy and teamwork. But always working off of fellow competitors who are in the same category and race.
    In MTB... I think you should put together your own race, not rely on outside assistance. If she had been pacing with teammates or even friends registered in the same race and category... I wouldn't have the slightest issue. For me, it's an issue of honor. I don't think it's an honorable thing to take an unfair advantage. The only reason it's not a rule is because it would be un-enforceable. In fact, there are such rules in road racing where it is easy to monitor. Furthermore, the ethic in MTB racing is that you receive no outside support and there are rules to that effect.

    The Motorsports analogy is interesting.
    Again, thanks to all for the dialogue! Good discussion.
    I am empathetic with the situation your wife and you experienced, I know something like this is hard to swallow. Many of us when we first get into the sports, are all honorific and well behaved beings, naive entities, later on we discover how competitive sports truly work.

    The amateur level is where you will find the most honorable races, just personal gain on the table. Also lack of experience, lack of confidence and a relatively lower level of competition means everyone takes the sport in a relaxed manner. Moving up to the top levels you will find how all competitive sports work, a lot is at stake, jobs, money and so on. Every team or individual will focus on exploiting every technicality of the rules to gain an advantage, whether that is an honorable thing to do is beside the point, unless it affects sponsors or the athlete image.

    I'm curious what your wife and you plan to do against this kind of stuff. The way I'm seeing it now there aren't many options at all, I'm guessing:

    • Shrugging if off and hope it doesn't happen again (not recommended)
    • Doing the same as that couple
    • If the situation is appropriate draft on them
    • Keep focusing on training to overcome them
    • Fight for a rule change or calling them out on future races


    I appreciate your receptiveness to criticism, that's a rare trait around these forums .

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDLover View Post
    I am empathetic with the situation your wife and you experienced, I know something like this is hard to swallow. Many of us when we first get into the sports, are all honorific and well behaved beings, naive entities, later on we discover how competitive sports truly work.

    The amateur level is where you will find the most honorable races, just personal gain on the table. Also lack of experience, lack of confidence and a relatively lower level of competition means everyone takes the sport in a relaxed manner. Moving up to the top levels you will find how all competitive sports work, a lot is at stake, jobs, money and so on. Every team or individual will focus on exploiting every technicality of the rules to gain an advantage, whether that is an honorable thing to do is beside the point, unless it affects sponsors or the athlete image.

    I'm curious what your wife and you plan to do against this kind of stuff. The way I'm seeing it now there aren't many options at all, I'm guessing:

    • Shrugging if off and hope it doesn't happen again (not recommended)
    • Doing the same as that couple
    • If the situation is appropriate draft on them
    • Keep focusing on training to overcome them
    • Fight for a rule change or calling them out on future races


    I appreciate your receptiveness to criticism, that's a rare trait around these forums .
    I think you're being pretty condescending and presumptuous. I posted the USAC rulebook which is worth reading through. There's a lot of us posting from the perspective of high level amateur and pro in this forum and I've never heard of a situation like this, but I think another ref could find a reason to disqualify the couple.


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    This happened a couple seasons back here. The woman leading the state xc series for elite/pro had a singifcant other in the men's elite field. He would often race semi hard for a lap, then pull the plug and wait for her. Then usually ride in front of her to pace and show lines. It was a bit obnoxious.

    Likewise at some big mass start long running MTB races (ie Cheq40, Ore 2 Shore, etc) a prominent woman (who has won a few times) would regularly have 5-6 strong guys start the race with her and pace/block wind for her the entire time. There is nothing you could do there, since it's mass start all mixed in. But, it still doesn't seem right when the intention from the start was for help and not just ending up in a group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chomxxo View Post
    I think you're being pretty condescending and presumptuous. I posted the USAC rulebook which is worth reading through. There's a lot of us posting from the perspective of high level amateur and pro in this forum and I've never heard of a situation like this, but I think another ref could find a reason to disqualify the couple.


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    I'm not a US national nor have raced any US race, I'm not disregarding the rules you linked, although I did give it a brief read to the mtb section.

    I was giving my opinion based on what the OP said, the referee in that race saw it legal and later on the OP confirmed this seemed to be the case. If someone more knowledgeable can confirm such tactics are prohibited then by all means they should be sanctioned, no debate about it.



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  21. #21
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    I can appreciate the unfair advantage aspect of this. She basically had a coach pushing her the entire race. It's worth disputing.
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    If it's not disallowed, it's by definition, allowed.

  23. #23
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    TTUB: I love that you brought this up. Good stuff to expose how creepy some people can be. Hard to believe anyone would defend this behavior, let alone execute on it as a plan.

    Wonder if public shaming would work?

    Because imagine if this were taken to its logical extreme...

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    After you guy have spoken to the husband/couple face to face, if they persist... Never underestimate the power public shaming. I'm not talking social media and local forum whining. I am talking about when she takes the podium announcing/asking:

    "Would you like to come up on the podium with your wife for a picture? C'mon lets get a round of applause for her in course support team."

    Alas, I am kind of outspoken and would reserve this rash behavior to a point where it was actually affecting my wife's race. We still don't know if this is opening up a gap between the two women or what the circumstances of the finishing spread are since you haven't provided those details. If they passed your wife, and then gapped her, I'd say there is a bigger issue. If she is not contending, let sleeping dogs lie and just vent here.

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    Thanks again for the discussion... I feel better now!

    I have been hesitant to add more detail and prolonging this, I'm not interested in wallowing in self pity (or spousal pity). Thanks to good discussion here, I'm kinda past it now.

    As has been discussed here, no rules were broken... so I would not take any action like 'public shaming'. We discussed it with the ref, the ref appeared to discuss it with the woman in question. If I see them at a future race, I will express my feelings with them and my hope that it not repeat... but as it is not against the rules, they could do as they wish.

    Strategy was mentioned... my wife is a pretty savvy racer. I think knowing of this will make her alert to it during future races. She might be able to exploit this somehow on course.
    TTUB - Ventura County California

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    It's still odd that it's not forbidden because it is an unfair advantage. If your wife is p*ssed, she should voice it. Were other racers ticked off?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    It's still odd that it's not forbidden because it is an unfair advantage. If your wife is p*ssed, she should voice it. Were other racers ticked off?
    I'd imagine it could be hard to enforce. First off, most MTB races are remote in the sense there's not a moto official watching everything that goes on. Second off, it's really common for multiple genders and categories to race together. I've been in races in a pack of 5 or so men. Not because I was seeking their draft, we were just bunched up on the single track in a little train cruising along together. Would I be expected to just stop and make sure the men are so far from me? You'd really have to make it so no opposite genders could be riding together, and that's not really practical in how most mountain bike races are set up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sooshee View Post
    I'd imagine it could be hard to enforce. First off, most MTB races are remote in the sense there's not a moto official watching everything that goes on. Second off, it's really common for multiple genders and categories to race together. I've been in races in a pack of 5 or so men. Not because I was seeking their draft, we were just bunched up on the single track in a little train cruising along together. Would I be expected to just stop and make sure the men are so far from me? You'd really have to make it so no opposite genders could be riding together, and that's not really practical in how most mountain bike races are set up.

    Make it against the rules then another competitor would have a broken rule to officially protest, instead of an ethical violation, that can be shrugged off by race officials

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    Lame. Totally against the concept of what we're out there doing, if not the exact written rule.

    Do you see this couple regularly at races? Do others share your concerns?

    If so, I'd say it's time for a group discussion or "intervention".
    Whining is not a strategy.

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    Do not take the tool further up the page as anything but that. There are such things as un-written rules and codes of conduct/honor and this clearly crosses many of those lines, it goes against the very substance that is MTB racing as compared to road racing, it is like when Lance went to the LT100 and brought along his boys to lead him out to the turn around and then hammer back for the win against other, honorable riders like Dave Weins who rode it as intended.

    If it were me I'd be heckling them every lap, taking video to substantiate and show others and publicly shaming them at every race until they stopped. If she is sponsored, I'd be targeting the sponsors with YouTube videos of it, calling them out, make sure to hash tag them, see how fast an upstanding sponsor will stay with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by TTUB View Post
    Thanks again for the discussion... I feel better now!
    As has been discussed here, no rules were broken... so I would not take any action like 'public shaming'. We discussed it with the ref, the ref appeared to discuss it with the woman in question. If I see them at a future race, I will express my feelings with them and my hope that it not repeat... but as it is not against the rules, they could do as they wish.
    Strategy was mentioned... my wife is a pretty savvy racer. I think knowing of this will make her alert to it during future races. She might be able to exploit this somehow on course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Do not take the tool further up the page as anything but that. There are such things as un-written rules and codes of conduct/honor and this clearly crosses many of those lines, it goes against the very substance that is MTB racing as compared to road racing, it is like when Lance went to the LT100 and brought along his boys to lead him out to the turn around and then hammer back for the win against other, honorable riders like Dave Weins who rode it as intended.

    Nobody had a tow rope on him. Dave Weins was in that lead group until mile 40 and was dropped because he couldn't hang with them, then Lance rode away from everyone on the climb. Doping allegations aside Armstrong did nothing "dishonorable" en route to winning that race.


    Weins own words-

    "I am beat. I rode as hard as I could - a fantastic race. Lance is fast," said Wiens to reporters gathered at the finish.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTUB View Post
    During my wife's race this past weekend, there was another woman who was paced during the race by her significant other. This guy was leading her, coaching her and encouraging her throughout the entire race.

    This was in an Expert/Pro race over a distance of 25 miles. I was pretty pissed. If you can't ride your own race at this level, maybe you shouldn't be at that level.

    I spoke to the race referee who also had noticed the assistance. While he agreed that it wasn't exactly fair, he didn't think it was against any rule. I just did my own research and there appears to be NO rule against this... provided that the guy was legitimately registered for the Expert men's race and was therefore authorized to be 'on course' at that time.

    Anyone have an opinion or know of any specific rule?

    Seems unfair and unsportsmanlike to me.

    Imagine if this happened in a woman's road race... a male racer waited on the side of the road for the woman's race to pass and jumped in to work for a female rider.
    How is this different than a teamate or her following a random guy?

    If hes in the race its no big deal.

    I actually have helped a random woman ot two by letting them suck my wheel and not purposely dropping them. Thats part of racing. I had a 15yr old girl riding my wheel in race and i would lead in the singletrack and she would let me draft on the road on my ss. Thats racing.

    Ive also had to run over a 10 year old girl with her dad following her in a race. I said passing on your left and she went left and stopped. I ran her over. I was leading the race by a minute or two. Her dad and I argued and i had to reattach my number plate and by that time second came by. So it goes both ways. There might be a day your wife is holding somebody up also. Ive been held up by the expert women. They actually are experts in letting people by too but not always room.

    I really dont see what you are complaining about unless the person was not entered in the race.

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    Quote Originally Posted by briscoelab View Post
    This happened a couple seasons back here. The woman leading the state xc series for elite/pro had a singifcant other in the men's elite field. He would often race semi hard for a lap, then pull the plug and wait for her. Then usually ride in front of her to pace and show lines. It was a bit obnoxious.

    Likewise at some big mass start long running MTB races (ie Cheq40, Ore 2 Shore, etc) a prominent woman (who has won a few times) would regularly have 5-6 strong guys start the race with her and pace/block wind for her the entire time. There is nothing you could do there, since it's mass start all mixed in. But, it still doesn't seem right when the intention from the start was for help and not just ending up in a group.
    Thats why Lea has teamates. Thats called racing. She has to be strong enough to keep up!!!

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    This is fairly regular in the nue and races like leadville and all that. My gf did an 8:24 at leadville riding her dads wheel for 100 miles

    The Simirils? do this all the time. He carrys stuff for her. This is amateur racing. A guy or gal ciuld be on the juice just as easy. Its all within the rules.

    Now if the husband is holding up other racers from getting aeound his wife totally different story.

    However racing at any level its not someone's responsibility to let you get by. Its yours to pass them safely. Its a race. Drafting is part of it. I cant even believe this is a tbread and all these people are crying about how unethical it is. What is this ironman? No drafting? Ill draft anything with wheels. Its called being smart not cheating.

    Two years ago at iceman Troy Wells attacked and Todd Wells got in 2nd and slowed down in a tight spot so Troy could get way out front. Thats the highest level. You think they didnt talk about that ahead of time? They arent even teamates.

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    ^^^ True, plenty of teamwork, drafting, etc., but it's generally acceptable within classes, not across classes.

    Sorry, but your gf's awesome Leadville time will always have an asterisk by it (drafted by Daddy).
    Whining is not a strategy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    ^^^ True, plenty of teamwork, drafting, etc., but it's generally acceptable within classes, not across classes.

    Sorry, but your gf's awesome Leadville time will always have an asterisk by it (drafted by Daddy).
    As opposed to drafting a teamate? That makes no sense. Top peak ergon brought a crew of racers just to get Alban and Sally the record. Drafting is part of leadville. Its not like he waited up for her. They ride together and train together. Hes 63 shes 33. They are naturally equal speeds.

    If this person was entered in the race. Didnt unsportsmanlike block anybody from passing this shouldnt even be a thread on mtbr.

    I can not comprehend the genesis of this post. So they didnt break a rule? What is the main point he is trying to make? He should have told his wife to grab his wheel and blasted off past the people in question forcing them to chase. Racing. Bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Its not like he waited up for her. They ride together and train together. Hes 63 shes 33. They are naturally equal speeds.

    I can not comprehend the genesis of this post. So they didnt break a rule? What is the main point he is trying to make?
    Now you've provided more information w/r/t the Daddy Factor, so fine, I guess. I still believe that cross-category assistance is kind of lousy.

    But I've always felt that there are both "the rules" and "the spirit" of endurance racing.

    To each their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    When I think about it many, many years ago my wife and i were about the same speed. We use to always end up around each other in mass start races. At the time I was very careful to never pace her, I would follow her and ask the guys who were blocking her on the downhills to get out of the way.
    Im confused.

    You would ride behind your wife and yell up ahead of her for guys to move? That seems corny and what this guy is crying about.

    Why wouldnt you just get in front of your wife and let her draft you and make passes in places where you could both get by?

    Im confused by the word being used. Pacing. Is this something other than drafting?

    Are you saying at iceman your wife doesnt draft men? I would think that would be a great idea. I would give her a tow gladly if we ended up next to each other.

    The woman who got 2nd is the fastest woman in the state. She rides on a fast team. They have a planned strategy every race. She starts the elite women's race and the fastest mens ss rider in the state catches her from behind, tows her up to their teamate in the elite mens field and they absolutely roast people that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    Now you've provided more information w/r/t the Daddy Factor, so fine, I guess. I still believe that cross-category assistance is kind of lousy.

    But I've always felt that there are both "the rules" and "the spirit" of endurance racing.

    To each their own.
    Ive honestly not done a large scale endurance race. So maybe there is "unwritten" rules. I know i was for sure planning to draft anything with wheels on my ss. Man woman child. If they are entered in the race to me we are all racing. Sonya Looney drops most of the men then rides with a group at the front of the overall. She drafts men without remorse.

    Im just failing to see what this person did that affected anybodys race. Long story short she drafted off another racer. Ive talked to other racers on courses i know saying we have this or that coming up want to work together. Im on a SS so im begging like a homeless person for tows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Ive also had to run over a 10 year old girl with her dad following her in a race. I said passing on your left and she went left and stopped. I ran her over.

    So that's how you guys in the motor city roll huh?
    I brake for stinkbugs

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    So that's how you guys in the motor city roll huh?
    I love when you take the time to take what i wrote and edit it to fit your narrative. Shows me you love me. You put so much care into trolling me its borderline stalker. If you werent a grumpy old man i may be worried.

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    Ha ha, you're the troller, I'm just a silly rock bass. "I had to run over a 10 year girl" is pretty juicy bait though, even a wily old walleye might have bitten on that. $hit, I just wasted 42 seconds!
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Ha ha, you're the troller, I'm just a silly rock bass. "I had to run over a 10 year girl" is pretty juicy bait though, even a wily old walleye might have bitten on that. $hit, I just wasted 42 seconds!
    Agreed, I guess Beg/Sport SS is a hugely competitive race in the Motor City.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Ha ha, you're the troller, I'm just a silly rock bass. "I had to run over a 10 year girl" is pretty juicy bait though, even a wily old walleye might have bitten on that. $hit, I just wasted 42 seconds!
    When someone stops in front of you at 16mph its unavoidable. I didnt say ya guess what i did today ran some kid over. I was making the point ive had to try and get around helicopter dad AND the ten yr old and we had a coming together. Its not like i ran her over and kept going. I helped her get up, stop crying, etc. Her dad obviously got mad for no reason cause his daughter was crying, etc. Its easy to twist my words to fit your narrative because typing out complete concise posts isnt my thing. If you isolate " i ran over a kid" it can make me look bad. Which is exactly your intention. In every thread i post you quote me and isolate a few words of my post and try and make a scene. Youre a corny old man playing on the internet to entertain yourself. Most of your posts refer to "back in the day".

    And then obviously captain clown after you had to try and make a condescending remark to me and about Detroit. Clowns. Not regular dudes having a convo on a forum trying to get better. Entertainment.

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    Nothing against Detroit, I worked in an industry affiliated with Detroit at one time in my life. You are the common denominator. You are arrogant and I'm not sure why, you state things as fact with authorty and then get called out by people more knowledgeable than yourself on the topic. It's a fairly consistent theme on this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MessagefromTate View Post
    Nothing against Detroit, I worked in an industry affiliated with Detroit at one time in my life. You are the common denominator. You are arrogant and I'm not sure why, you state things as fact with authorty and then get called out by people more knowledgeable than yourself on the topic. It's a fairly consistent theme on this forum.
    Definitely not arrogant. Never judge a book by its posts on a random internet forum. I have a chip on my shoulder. Thats different than arrogance. Im not afraid to say things and be wrong either. Thats how every great invention and innovation came about. Challenge the status quo. If i was better at putting my thoughts into words all my posts would make more sense.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    draft anything with wheels
    I agree! It's all fair game. But when one racer sets out to intentionally assist one particular other racer who is in a different category/race from start to finish. That's where it crosses the line for me. When fields mix and everyone is drafting everyone else, that's fair for all participants. One person setting out with the intent to help one specific other who isn't in the same race is intent to take an unfair advantage.

    As for "pacing", I am not speaking specifically about "drafting". There were sections of the course where drafting would have helped. At this race, the technical difficulty of the course was the bigger issue. This woman had someone leading her through all the best lines and setting pace. It was a big factor... this woman is a recent National Champion in another sport and has incredible fitness... but she is also new to MTB racing and this kind of guidance helped her immensely.
    TTUB - Ventura County California

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    Quote Originally Posted by TTUB View Post
    I agree! It's all fair game. But when one racer sets out to intentionally assist one particular other racer who is in a different category/race from start to finish. That's where it crosses the line for me. When fields mix and everyone is drafting everyone else, that's fair for all participants. One person setting out with the intent to help one specific other who isn't in the same race is intent to take an unfair advantage.

    As for "pacing", I am not speaking specifically about "drafting". There were sections of the course where drafting would have helped. At this race, the technical difficulty of the course was the bigger issue. This woman had someone leading her through all the best lines and setting pace. It was a big factor... this woman is a recent National Champion in another sport and has incredible fitness... but she is also new to MTB racing and this kind of guidance helped her immensely.
    Ohh okay. Like this person was measuring their effort to not get too far ahead. I do that to my gf on training rides. Like ill hold x mph and make her keep up. I would drop her in a race though never change my pace to match hers.

    I just know ive met a bunch of couples that ride everyday together and they naturally are the same speed. Maybe he starts slow and comes on later or she catches up after the fast rollouts and they rise together.

    The situation you are presenting isnt just drafting off her husband.

    I also am fairly new to racing bikes and am learning all these little "codes". I always thought in like mass start mixed gender races that we were all equal and just racers. Like ive seen plenty of elite women find some dudes to draft. Like thats their strategy they openly discuss. Like i said Sonya Looney has never been shy about drafting guys at the front of the overall.

    I would never like tell a woman, hey you cant draft me. I have definitely offered to work with women just as much as men. Maybe i need to re approach the situation.

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    I see teammates racing like this all the time. One will lead on the flats and one will lead on the singletrack. It's really easy to become their third wheel and take advantage of all their work. The only problem is you end up having to usually pass them both at once. Part of racing is experience and knowing how to turn it to your advantage. All of us have sucked a wheel at one time or another.
    Now a husband and wife doing this seems a little weird to me. I think my wife would divorce me if I tried this. Couples like this you usually only see for a season and then they move onto something else.

  50. #50
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    I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but in USAC road racing with mixed categories, it is illegal to draft off a racer that's not in your group. If an official sees you doing it, you're subject to disqualification.

    For instance a Masters 50+ guy latched onto a strong female roadie at a Roubaix-style 105-miler in my hometown a couple of weeks ago. She yelled back "get off me!" at him.

    So, to anyone claiming this is ok and it's "just racing" while referencing roadie tactics, be advised that it is against road racing rules.


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    Quote Originally Posted by chomxxo View Post
    I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but in USAC road racing with mixed categories, it is illegal to draft off a racer that's not in your group. If an official sees you doing it, you're subject to disqualification.

    For instance a Masters 50+ guy latched onto a strong female roadie at a Roubaix-style 105-miler in my hometown a couple of weeks ago. She yelled back "get off me!" at him.

    So, to anyone claiming this is ok and it's "just racing" while referencing roadie tactics, be advised that it is against road racing rules.


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    How would you know? I always thought promoters should put a different color sticker on the back of our helmets. Like in motorcycle races. They put a color or letter on your helmet. So people arent doing anything silly to pass someone who they arent competing with. After my first mtb race i was asking why they dont do this. I believe some races the first number in number plate is the class. Not sure though.



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    Im going to be doing a bunch of mass start mixed gender races. This whole time i have been planning to draft men women children any wheel that comes by hold as long as i can. Thats the ss life.

    Will this make me look bad? Or lead to situations being presented. I guess im just naive. I am not trying to "break the code". Im trying to make friends and ride bikes not be that guy who does whatever to win. In the middle of an NUE race im sure all the categories are intermixed people just trying to stay moving. It never crossed my mind that i should be selectively deciding who to draft. You can call me Kwiatowski on Sagan for all I care im just trying to draft.



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    USACycling Rule-book question... Pacing Another Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    How would you know? I always thought promoters should put a different color sticker on the back of our helmets. Like in motorcycle races. They put a color or letter on your helmet. So people arent doing anything silly to pass someone who they arent competing with. After my first mtb race i was asking why they dont do this. I believe some races the first number in number plate is the class. Not sure though.

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    Perhaps you aspire to be the Donald Trump of XC racing. I don't know, but I'm not going to engage you on a confrontational level.

    I can tell the difference between a young man and an old woman. I still have "P1" in black marker on my calf for Pro/Cat1 from the XC race today. And there are no alternative rules


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    Quote Originally Posted by chomxxo View Post
    Perhaps you aspire to be the Donald Trump of XC racing. I don't know, but I'm not going to engage you on a confrontational level.

    I can tell the difference between a young man and an old woman. I still have "P1" in black marker on my calf for Pro/Cat1 from the XC race today. And there are no alternative rules


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    Guys love to talk that bleep.

    Thats cool you had marker on your leg. Thats along the lines of what i was saying about a sticker on the helmet. Not sure why you responded like you did. Im assuming its cause youre a jerk. Why else would you take my post and bring politics into it not sure. I aspire to be the best version of myself. One flaw at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Will this make me look bad? Or lead to situations being presented.
    No and No. Working with, drafting and providing draft to other racers is all fair game and honestly, good tactics.

    Again, what I am railing against here is someone entering a race with the sole intent of getting on-course to assist another racer who is not in their 'race'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTUB View Post
    No and No. Working with, drafting and providing draft to other racers is all fair game and honestly, good tactics.

    Again, what I am railing against here is someone entering a race with the sole intent of getting on-course to assist another racer who is not in their 'race'.
    Okay thank you. I get it now. Im going to apologize to the thread for saying people are crying.

    Sorry i wasnt real sure and i assumed and called people crybabies.

    I got crossed up because ive had lots of conversations with guys about ss and they say number one thing suck every wheel that you can for as long as you can. They never said "unless its a woman". There are some blazing fast ladies and i would have zero shame drafting them in a mass start mixed gender race.



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    Quote Originally Posted by TTUB View Post
    No and No. Working with, drafting and providing draft to other racers is all fair game and honestly, good tactics.

    Again, what I am railing against here is someone entering a race with the sole intent of getting on-course to assist another racer who is not in their 'race'.
    Again, working with another age group within the same race is illegal in road racing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by chomxxo View Post
    Again, working with another age group within the same race is illegal in road racing.


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    And thats what led to my question of how can you tell... if a guy is 30 or 40? Etc. Not man from woman.

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    [QUOTE=LaneDetroitCity;13099321]And thats what led to my question of how can you tell... if a guy is 30 or 40? Etc. Not man from woman.

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    someone correct me if I am wrong. The last road race I was in we had numbers pinned front and back. You could tell grouping by the numbers.
    In mtb the plate numbers are usually specific. But you are right in that a lot of the time you don't know your placing until it is over.
    Back to the OP, the offending couple are jerks, which in this world there are a lot of. But really it doesn't effect the outcome of anything. If you are fast enough to hold their wheel then you will have the same benefits. If you are faster or slower than it really doesn't matter. The only thing that could bother you would when you try and pass. In that case a little trash talk would get your point across.

  60. #60
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    Most of us learn the rules as we become familiar with the sport. Very few competitors know all the rules. Sometimes a popular groundswell can lead to a rule change so polling the masses about a type of conduct can be helpful.

    As I understand the rules, pacing and or drafting in a mountain bike race is within the rules. Period. It doesn't matter what class, age, sex or ability; drafting and or pacing is legal.

    A few years ago I was passed in a cross country race by two junior riders and their adult coach at Sea Otter. The coach was non stop yelling instructions to the boys. How did they end up wheel to wheel in that configuration? The starts at Sea Otter are very controlled by age and class. The coach had to have started ahead of the boys and just waited on the course for them to go by, then coached, paced and drafted them through the race.

    In a local road race a few years ago, there was quite a controversy when some Cat 2 racers dropped back to the Cat 3 lead group to pull for some Cat 3 team mates. They got called out for it, tried to deny it but video of the race made it obvious they had committed a rules violation.

    On the other hand, blocking and pacing within your class is legal and common in road racing but I would have a real problem with someone blocking me for a team mate in a MTB race. It might be legal but I wouldn't stand for it.
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

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    USACycling Rule-book question... Pacing Another Rider

    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    And thats what led to my question of how can you tell... if a guy is 30 or 40? Etc. Not man from woman.

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    That's not how road categories generally go. There are more categories and fewer age groups. Roadies tend to be more aware of who's who, and all the rules.

    But in big mountain bike races I've seen calf markers like mine are effective.

    The logical conclusion from this thread should be: the couple's tactics sounds more like road racing. It's not keeping with the stated intent of MTB rules to race unassisted. In fact these tactics are illegal on the road.

    Therefore it should be made illegal in USAC MTB rules too. If I hear of it happening at a race in my region I'll propose it to the regional coordinator.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    I always thought promoters should put a different color sticker on the back of our helmets. Like in motorcycle races. They put a color or letter on your helmet. So people arent doing anything silly to pass someone who they arent competing with. After my first mtb race i was asking why they dont do this. I believe some races the first number in number plate is the class. Not sure though.
    I could not agree with this more.

    Admittedly, I'm WELL into the Old Dude (50+) class, so I am now at a point where I just want to race my peers. Sure, it's cool to do well in the overall, but that's no longer any part of my focus.
    Whining is not a strategy.

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    For clarification's sake, the lady had what amounts to her coach with her the entire race pushing her. That's an unfair advantage. Total dick move. Those of us with a competitive attitude can recognize that.
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    How would you know? I always thought promoters should put a different color sticker on the back of our helmets. Like in motorcycle races. They put a color or letter on your helmet. So people arent doing anything silly to pass someone who they arent competing with. After my first mtb race i was asking why they dont do this. I believe some races the first number in number plate is the class. Not sure though.



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    I hear you. It's good to know who's in your class so you can make the appropriate move.

    As for the OP, the situation wasn't about a teammate making a pull for an entire race. This was a husband, per record, pulling her and coaching her on. Apparently not illegal but certainly unethical by some standards.
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

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    The rule in Road Racing is easy to enforce. Roads are open and visibility is good. Road racing fields usually has a main peloton that is MUCH more defined than a spread out MTB race. At-least where I have raced, officials keep the packs separated. If a faster field is over-taking a slower race/field... the officials will neutralize the slower field until the faster group passes cleanly and without mixing. It doesn't happen very often as most races are crits here in the US with one race on course at a time. Road races generally have a motorcycle official to keep things kosher on the open road.

    A similar rule for MTB would be almost impossible to enforce. But... My opinion is that they should have a rule anyway. In the instance I am referencing, the official results show lap times of the pacer and friend as virtually identical start to finish. (with the only exception where the pacer waited on the first lap for 2 minutes, the time difference between the start of the men's field and the woman's field).
    TTUB - Ventura County California

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    Quote Originally Posted by TTUB View Post
    A similar rule for MTB would be almost impossible to enforce. But... My opinion is that they should have a rule anyway.
    Agreed. Unfortunately, some people will never do the right thing unless they're forced to.

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    My take is this. If both riders are naturally running the same speed then so what. Could be friends that just want to help even if they are in different classes. I draw the line at one rider riding under their capacity to help another.

    I hear about this a kids mtn bike race this weekend some parents went out on course with them. Fine with me, but apparently they were pacing the kids. I don't like that. The kids should have to ride in front and the parents should be behind. No setting a pace or giving them line information. Fine to be behind to "catch" the kids in case of crash or whatever. Mtn bike racing is about line choice and pacing. I have no issues if one rider happens to find other course and catches draft or picks better lines or runs a smarter pace by following. That is a part of racing even if you are using a teammate. Heck your team mate might be little better setting a pace so you may chose to ride behind them for the first half of a race to not blow up early. Ok too if one rider wants to be a "rabbit" knowing they will blow up before the finish. Again where I draw the line is if the faster teammate is riding under their capacity just to help the other rider. That is what training is for. This should not happen a mtb race unless there are defined teams like a the Cape Epic. There they do run 2 person teams.
    Joe
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    OK... I just finished an email to USACycling.

    Hopefully, it will get some consideration in future editions of the Rule Book.
    TTUB - Ventura County California

  69. #69
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    If the rule was on the books it could be enforced during the protest period. Someone pulling this stunt can't possibly not be seen by just one rider. A protest, that's upheld by other witnesses could get the offenders removed from the event. Once word got out the behavior would stop.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTUB View Post
    OK... I just finished an email to USACycling.

    Hopefully, it will get some consideration in future editions of the Rule Book.
    Excellent!

    I still remember my first 100, where the promoter said it was time to discuss the rules, and he said "It's a long race, so don't be a Dick".
    Whining is not a strategy.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    Excellent!

    I still remember my first 100, where the promoter said it was time to discuss the rules, and he said "It's a long race, so don't be a Dick".
    I was asking a bunch of questions about rules and ettiqute and all that when i started and was told to shut up and ride.

    Common replies....
    Its a mtb race not a bunch of roadies

    Mtb racers dont whine about rules

    Its all about having fun and drinking beer after

    This just a sample. Thats why i started calling it the beer league. Because thats about the most common answer to any question. We are racing to have beer after not a bunch of silly rules.

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  72. #72
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    The moment the husband abandoned his own "race" with the sole purpose of aiding a rider in a different field, he went out side the ethics of mtb racing as an individual event.

    Mass start long distance races are a much different animal than an XCO type of event.

    Hanging onto a wheel that passes you (in an xco race) is not the same as having someone abandon their race to assist you.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ligniteminer View Post
    The moment the husband abandoned his own "race" with the sole purpose of aiding a rider in a different field, he went out side the ethics of mtb racing as an individual event.

    Mass start long distance races are a much different animal than an XCO type of event.

    Hanging onto a wheel that passes you (in an xco race) is not the same as having someone abandon their race to assist you.
    I had a post typed up that said something similar, then closed the window on accident.

    A friend of mine is a female Women's World Tour pro. Will be racing in Europe this summer. Rides with me on the MTB from time to time and we're building her a carbon HT (with 69° HTA, 110mm fork, dropper). She alternates between a 30lb aluminum Kona FS and my HT right now.

    She was wondering if it would be "legal" to enter a mass start endurance race and have me coach her the entire time.

    I told her I didn't know of any USAC rule against it, particularly in a mass start endurance race, but I wasn't sure how others would take it. But, then again, there are plenty of endurance races where groups of multiple categories work together out on the course for dozens of miles.



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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I had a post typed up that said something similar, then closed the window on accident.

    A friend of mine is a female Women's World Tour pro. Will be racing in Europe this summer. Rides with me on the MTB from time to time and we're building her a carbon HT (with 69° HTA, 110mm fork, dropper). She alternates between a 30lb aluminum Kona FS and my HT right now.

    She was wondering if it would be "legal" to enter a mass start endurance race and have me coach her the entire time.

    I told her I didn't know of any USAC rule against it, particularly in a mass start endurance race, but I wasn't sure how others would take it. But, then again, there are plenty of endurance races where groups of multiple categories work together out on the course for dozens of miles.



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    I think it would be fine, except for the part about you slowing her down!
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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    I think it would be fine, except for the part about you slowing her down!
    When she figures out how to properly ride a bike with 2.25s as opposed to 25s, a lot of people are going to move down a position on the results sheet.

    Massive engine, likes to learn. I made her re-do the same technical section 7 times on Saturday. Got it twice in a row and was pleased with herself.




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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    When she figures out how to properly ride a bike with 2.25s as opposed to 25s, a lot of people are going to move down a position on the results sheet.

    Massive engine, likes to learn. I made her re-do the same technical section 7 times on Saturday. Got it twice in a row and was pleased with herself.
    Sounds fun. It's great to have a protege, or whatever term you prefer. Mine is so much faster than me now, that we can only ride together when he wants a fun ride, and I want a difficult training ride. He is 25 years younger than me, though, so I've got that, plus the fact that he got on the podium (age group, team category) in this year's Trans-Andes.
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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    Sounds fun. It's great to have a protege, or whatever term you prefer. Mine is so much faster than me now, that we can only ride together when he wants a fun ride, and I want a difficult training ride. He is 25 years younger than me, though, so I've got that, plus the fact that he got on the podium (age group, team category) in this year's Trans-Andes.
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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Ive honestly not done a large scale endurance race. So maybe there is "unwritten" rules. I know i was for sure planning to draft anything with wheels on my ss. Man woman child. If they are entered in the race to me we are all racing. Sonya Looney drops most of the men then rides with a group at the front of the overall. She drafts men without remorse.

    Im just failing to see what this person did that affected anybodys race. Long story short she drafted off another racer. Ive talked to other racers on courses i know saying we have this or that coming up want to work together. Im on a SS so im begging like a homeless person for tows.

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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    When she figures out how to properly ride a bike with 2.25s as opposed to 25s, a lot of people are going to move down a position on the results sheet.

    Massive engine, likes to learn. I made her re-do the same technical section 7 times on Saturday. Got it twice in a row and was pleased with herself.
    That's wifey material right there

  80. #80
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    there are a tools in a lot of races

    being racer number 5-30 is a tough life

    the only real cure is be faster than everyone and make them eat your s**t when you pass

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDLover View Post
    That's wifey material right there
    Pretty sure LeDuke's already spoken for in that regard
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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    She was wondering if it would be "legal" to enter a mass start endurance race and have me coach her the entire time.
    My 16 year-old son went out in a wave ahead of me in the Laramie Enduro (~70 miles) and my intention was to help him through the difficult last 30 miles after I caught him half way through. I never saw him until the finish! He ended up beating me by 30 minutes in a 6 hour race, and the only under-20 rider finishing ahead of him was a sponsored 18 year-old out of Utah with quality national results. In my case, the best coaching move I made was having my "protege" start before me and having in the back of his mind that he was going to show that old man a thing or two.
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  83. #83
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    I think the coaching during a race has it's place. It's a good way to assist newer riders and help them get into racing, which can be very intimidating to jump into.

    I think it should be banned at the elite/pro level where cash payouts are involved. It's really only an issue with the women's elite and Men's SS podiums, as the men's elite podium isn't going to get assistance from other categories. Masters and other non-open categories shouldn't have cash payouts. It's bs to take home a cash prize by having other categories coach/pace you. For XC events, organizers can prevent this with different people on the course at different times. I'd definitely talk with the event organizer if that's an issue, and show up with a group of other concerned bikers. The good promoters listen to their riders and are usually open to making reasonable adjustments.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by trees4me View Post
    I think the coaching during a race has it's place. It's a good way to assist newer riders and help them get into racing, which can be very intimidating to jump into.

    I think it should be banned at the elite/pro level where cash payouts are involved. It's really only an issue with the women's elite and Men's SS podiums, as the men's elite podium isn't going to get assistance from other categories. Masters and other non-open categories shouldn't have cash payouts. It's bs to take home a cash prize by having other categories coach/pace you. For XC events, organizers can prevent this with different people on the course at different times. I'd definitely talk with the event organizer if that's an issue, and show up with a group of other concerned bikers. The good promoters listen to their riders and are usually open to making reasonable adjustments.
    We were talking about that. While it's different from having someone literally working for them, the top women in a race like the Lumberjack 100 are still riding with the men. But, if I drop back to pace my friend up to a group, or carry her food, tubes, etc., is that cheating? While it might not be against the rules, it's certainly not good sportsmanship, in my opinion. If I were another woman in her race, on a team? Ok, that's not only acceptable but perfectly reasonable, tactically. We see the same thing in races like Leadville, Cape Epic, etc.
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  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    We were talking about that. While it's different from having someone literally working for them, the top women in a race like the Lumberjack 100 are still riding with the men. But, if I drop back to pace my friend up to a group, or carry her food, tubes, etc., is that cheating? While it might not be against the rules, it's certainly not good sportsmanship, in my opinion. If I were another woman in her race, on a team? Ok, that's not only acceptable but perfectly reasonable, tactically. We see the same thing in races like Leadville, Cape Epic, etc.
    Lumberjack you would be fine. Those type of races are about surviving for most. The vibe is different. My gf got 4th last year and for sure rode with her male teamates and friends. Thats part of their strategy. She carries her own supplies but nobody would have a problem if you did that. Its just a different vibe. Hard to explain. Its not like xc nats where everyone is on edge type of thing.

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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by trees4me View Post
    I think it should be banned at the elite/pro level where cash payouts are involved.
    Yes! The OP is referring to an elite/pro race where cash was on the line.
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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    if I drop back to pace my friend up to a group, or carry her food, tubes, etc., is that cheating?
    Dropping back to help out is fine in my book, so long as it is a chance encounter out on the course and you are no giving up your race to help someone outside of your category for the rest of the day. Helping a bit here and there isn't such a big deal, but you shouldn't start the race with the intention of helping someone most of the day.

    As for carrying tubes and food, that is definitely against the rules in MTB racing. MTB is strictly self-supported. There are such rules in the USAC books already.

    Even in races like Leadville, which are not USAC sanctioned, they have specific rules about outside assistance... typical only allowed at sanctioned aid stations...
    Here's the rule from Leadville:

    >Riders may accept food, water or clothing from crews ONLY at aid-stations.
    >Riders may accept bike parts, wheels,tires or tubes ONLY at aid-stations.
    >Riders must carry their own tools and do their own repairs unassisted.

    Last year at LVille, there were numerous Mavic neutral support stations around the course where they would make repairs for you... but the pivotal term here is "Neutral"... i.e. they are there to help everyone in the race... it's an equal opportunity. No one gets an unfair advantage because they have a person riding along with them ferrying their gear.

    Relevant USAC Rules:

    5A5. Except as noted in section 5C, all spare parts and tools
    shall be carried by the individual racer, to be used only by
    that racer; cannibalizing other bikes is not permitted. A racer
    can only use spare parts or tools that he/she started with at
    the beginning of the race.


    5C3. Technical assistance and feeding shall normally only be
    given in the feed/technical assistance zones. Physical contact
    between the feeders/mechanics may only take place in these
    zones. However, technical assistance may be given between
    teammates competing in the same race outside of the
    technical assistance zones subject to the limitations of 5C2
    above.
    TTUB - Ventura County California

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