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  1. #1
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    UCI World Cup event in NY 7/5-7/10

    So who's going to watch the fun?
    www.racewindham.com
    I'll be helping out with course marshalling and whatever else and then racing on sunday.

  2. #2
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    Tomorrow on Wednesday by 7 PM there's gonna be
    a race marshal meeting at the Windham ski resort.
    Before that, group ride starts from the bike shop
    and pre-ride the XC race course. I'll be there

  3. #3
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    Went last year. Fun, but not worth another long road trip for me. The WC "show" was pretty exciting, but I find ski resort courses uninspiring to ride. Pretty area though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbscott View Post
    ... I find ski resort courses uninspiring to ride...
    not to be a jerk, but are you competitive in your class? i guess i can understand if you don't like repeating loops, especially if you aren't really competing. i am just trying to understand because i have ridden the Windham course. it was a good race course (not as good as MSA, but quite good in it's own right). the course provided good challenges and had a good mix of speed and passing opportunities, with some tough climbs. i did feel like Mt. Snow had a more technical descent, which i like. if it were close by i would love to go rip a lap after work. if i were to schedule a 4hr training or recreational ride i am sure i would select something else. if i were on vacation (not racing) i would not go repeat loops, but might ride a loop because it is there.

    i guess what i am getting at is there has been a lot of complaints about the racing format. XCO is not Marathon, or Ultra Endurance. different classification of races. rather than bemoan the format of XCO that has been developed to support the professional MTB racer, maybe just post/attend/laud the Marathon (or whatever bike rides) you do/enjoy.

    please don't take this as a personal attack. i enjoy both types of races, and all riding including the horrible skinny tire kind, even though i have sort of specialized in XCO to compete at the same places as my wife. given a different circumstance i would probably choose to race stuff like Downieville, or the famous Ashland SuperD. that sort of racing plays a little more to my strengths...

    late edit... if you find Whistler or MSA uninspiring then i am not sure we will ever be on the same page.
    Last edited by whybotherme; 07-06-2011 at 09:19 AM.
    My wife's website....
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by whybotherme View Post
    not to be a jerk, but are you competitive in your class? i guess i can understand if you don't like repeating loops, especially if you aren't really competing. i am just trying to understand because i have ridden the Windham course. it was a good race course (not as good as MSA, but quite good in it's own right). the course provided good challenges and had a good mix of speed and passing opportunities, with some tough climbs. i did feel like Mt. Snow had a more technical descent, which i like. if it were close by i would love to go rip a lap after work. if i were to schedule a 4hr training or recreational ride i am sure i would select something else. if i were on vacation (not racing) i would not go repeat loops, but might ride a loop because it is there.

    i guess what i am getting at is there has been a lot of complaints about the racing format. XCO is not Marathon, or Ultra Endurance. different classification of races. rather than bemoan the format of XCO that has been developed to support the professional MTB racer, maybe just post/attend/laud the Marathon (or whatever bike rides) you do/enjoy.

    please don't take this as a personal attack. i enjoy both types of races, and all riding including the horrible skinny tire kind, even though i have sort of specialized in XCO to compete at the same places as my wife. given a different circumstance i would probably choose to race stuff like Downieville, or the famous Ashland SuperD. that sort of racing plays a little more to my strengths...

    late edit... if you find Whistler or MSA uninspiring then i am not sure we will ever be on the same page.
    jerk




  6. #6
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    Windham WC XC bike choice?

    For those that have ridden the Windham XC course, would you say a race 29er hardtail or full suspension would be the better choice?

  7. #7
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    I'd bring the best bike for climbing.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerbrad View Post
    For those that have ridden the Windham XC course, would you say a race 29er hardtail or full suspension would be the better choice?

    There isn't anything particularly difficult on the course. The climbs are pretty gradual and the descent has minimal technical challenge. It is a fairly rough course though,

    I would personally choose an FS over a hardtail.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerbrad View Post
    For those that have ridden the Windham XC course, would you say a race 29er hardtail or full suspension would be the better choice?
    i raced it in 2009 on a HT. that said, my personal preference for all racing is a 26" FS bike.
    My wife's website....
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  10. #10
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    whybotherme, let me give you a little of my background. I've been riding mtb's since 1996, started racing the next year, age 40 to begin with BTW. Soared as a beginner, had consistent top five results in sport, moved to expert in my mid 40's. Had a couple of top ten seasons, been pretty much pack fodder since. I'm also very involved in the big picture racing scene here in Texas. Promote two state races a year, along with a 6 hour endurance, and some years a cross race thrown in. Currently president of our state racing organization, of which I've been a board member since '98. Mtb captain for a big team that includes around 10 adults and 20 juniors riding primarily offroad, in addition to our 30 or so roadies. Served as race director in 2004 when our state group put on NORBA nationals here for two years during the Team Big Bear days. Have been to Nationals, or nationals, at many places since 2003.
    I think it's been said that we get used to riding what we get used to riding. Texas has huge differences in the terrain that we race on, the ONLY things we don't have are altitude, and extended climbs now that Terlingua is out of the picture. What we do have is lots of singletrack, rocky ledges, tight woods, roots, desert, lush forest, creek crossings, more rocks, etc. I have never accepted that the only true test of XCO racing is how well you can climb on jeeproads, that is why I find ski resort courses uninspiring. I will admit I've been to a few that make decent attempts to throw some other stuff into the mix, Windham did have some fun descents in it. I have a love/hate relationship with Mt Snow, been there many times, have more poor results than good, but it does have some cool challenges in it.
    Unless they're all lying, the Pro's have loved our courses when they come here. Mellow Johnny's for the last three years now is a typical Texas Hill Country course, with a fair amount of climbing, rockledge descents and ups, some scrub wood twisties, and a couple of usually dry creek beds thrown in for good measure. Waco Cameron Park and Tapatio in 04/05 were mostly singletrack where fitness prevails but bike handling/technical skills also matter.
    Hope that explains a bit about where I'm coming from.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbscott View Post
    whybotherme, let me give you a little of my background. I've been riding mtb's since 1996, started racing the next year, age 40 to begin with BTW. Soared as a beginner, had consistent top five results in sport, moved to expert in my mid 40's. Had a couple of top ten seasons, been pretty much pack fodder since. I'm also very involved in the big picture racing scene here in Texas. Promote two state races a year, along with a 6 hour endurance, and some years a cross race thrown in. Currently president of our state racing organization, of which I've been a board member since '98. Mtb captain for a big team that includes around 10 adults and 20 juniors riding primarily offroad, in addition to our 30 or so roadies. Served as race director in 2004 when our state group put on NORBA nationals here for two years during the Team Big Bear days. Have been to Nationals, or nationals, at many places since 2003.
    I think it's been said that we get used to riding what we get used to riding. Texas has huge differences in the terrain that we race on, the ONLY things we don't have are altitude, and extended climbs now that Terlingua is out of the picture. What we do have is lots of singletrack, rocky ledges, tight woods, roots, desert, lush forest, creek crossings, more rocks, etc. I have never accepted that the only true test of XCO racing is how well you can climb on jeeproads, that is why I find ski resort courses uninspiring. I will admit I've been to a few that make decent attempts to throw some other stuff into the mix, Windham did have some fun descents in it. I have a love/hate relationship with Mt Snow, been there many times, have more poor results than good, but it does have some cool challenges in it.
    Unless they're all lying, the Pro's have loved our courses when they come here. Mellow Johnny's for the last three years now is a typical Texas Hill Country course, with a fair amount of climbing, rockledge descents and ups, some scrub wood twisties, and a couple of usually dry creek beds thrown in for good measure. Waco Cameron Park and Tapatio in 04/05 were mostly singletrack where fitness prevails but bike handling/technical skills also matter.
    Hope that explains a bit about where I'm coming from.
    that does help. i think i understand better now where you mean that the courses are uninspiring for you. what i hear is that the steeper climbing doesn't suit you so much, that you prefer rolling courses (with plenty of technical challenges). since the short course format is often very steep up and down a ski hill, it doesn't suit you. the only race that i can think of that I would classify in this manner is the Bonelli ProXCT course. i can say that this course (very short course) was one of my favorites this year! the shorter power climbs suit me well too.

    i have not done much MTB racing that didn't include some really significant climbs on jeep/fire roads. typically this is where XC races are won and lost. i never thought of myself as a climber, but have forced the issue to try to be competitive (and to keep up with the wife who is surely a climber).

    allison raced at Mellow Jonnies last year and said she enjoyed the course. i was still recovering at the time and never really left the start finish area so didn't see the course at all. one thing to note, i was unable to walk so i couldn't see anything of the racing except the feed zone where i was handing up bottles and ice bags. at somewhere like Fontana or a few other short courses i could have seen more of the race without having to hobble around. many course designers are working hard to loop the course back near the start/finish area for spectators to get a sense of what is happening in the race, having experience being at a race and not being very mobile, i can appreciate their attempts!

    i will add the caveat that it is likely that my interest in the pro level races is probably due to the fact that i have a vested interest in them (allison's racing). i watch the women's race more closely than i do the men's, though i think that is partly due to the fact that i like watching women... women's beach volleyball holds my attention much better than men's!

    btw... sounds great that you have contributed so much to the mtb community in your area. i am sure it is greatly appreciated by those that live near you!
    My wife's website....
    Allison Mann

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    Now, if only everyone online could solve potential flame wars like you two just did, the interwebs would be a much better place.

    I have a race Sunday, and will be watching on Freecaster to get me pumped before leaving for it tomorrow!

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    Another aspect of Texas (TMBRA) racing is that most of our venues are on private property, the rest being state or federal parklands. The trails at the venues are built and designed to get people on them all the time, not just for races. While on race weekend, the loops might be altered for time or logistics reasons, I can't think of any that are "race only." Not many recreational riders are going to want to drive somewhere to do a short straight up/straight down kind of trail, hence most trails here are a minimum of 8-10 miles with some places having much more trail than that. One of the races I direct is at Rocky Hill Ranch in Smithville, TX. Its full loop is about 23 miles long and there are tons of concentric loops within to make shorter distances. This spring we had a 17 mile loop for Cat 2/Cat 1, 8 miles for Cat 3, 5 miles for 12 and unders, and a 4.5 mile multi-lapper for the Pro's.
    I'm leaving for Nationals tomorrow with stops in Santa Fe and Durango on the way out. Hope to explore some of the non-race trails around Sun Valley too while I'm there.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbscott View Post
    Another aspect of Texas (TMBRA) racing is that most of our venues are on private property, the rest being state or federal parklands. The trails at the venues are built and designed to get people on them all the time, not just for races. While on race weekend, the loops might be altered for time or logistics reasons, I can't think of any that are "race only." Not many recreational riders are going to want to drive somewhere to do a short straight up/straight down kind of trail, hence most trails here are a minimum of 8-10 miles with some places having much more trail than that. One of the races I direct is at Rocky Hill Ranch in Smithville, TX. Its full loop is about 23 miles long and there are tons of concentric loops within to make shorter distances. This spring we had a 17 mile loop for Cat 2/Cat 1, 8 miles for Cat 3, 5 miles for 12 and unders, and a 4.5 mile multi-lapper for the Pro's.
    I'm leaving for Nationals tomorrow with stops in Santa Fe and Durango on the way out. Hope to explore some of the non-race trails around Sun Valley too while I'm there.
    i have ridden in santa fe and durango. both had cool trails and i am sure we didn't even scratch the surface of them as we passed through. our trip north will also see a couple stops on the way for ride opportunities. wish it were going to be cooler, i love Bootleg Canyon riding but it will be too hot there. not sure where we are headed after the racing but i assure you we will find some great non-race trails to enjoy! safe travels!
    My wife's website....
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by whybotherme View Post
    not to be a jerk, but are you competitive in your class? i guess i can understand if you don't like repeating loops, especially if you aren't really competing. i am just trying to understand because i have ridden the Windham course. it was a good race course (not as good as MSA, but quite good in it's own right). the course provided good challenges and had a good mix of speed and passing opportunities, with some tough climbs. i did feel like Mt. Snow had a more technical descent, which i like. if it were close by i would love to go rip a lap after work. if i were to schedule a 4hr training or recreational ride i am sure i would select something else. if i were on vacation (not racing) i would not go repeat loops, but might ride a loop because it is there.

    i guess what i am getting at is there has been a lot of complaints about the racing format. XCO is not Marathon, or Ultra Endurance. different classification of races. rather than bemoan the format of XCO that has been developed to support the professional MTB racer, maybe just post/attend/laud the Marathon (or whatever bike rides) you do/enjoy.

    please don't take this as a personal attack. i enjoy both types of races, and all riding including the horrible skinny tire kind, even though i have sort of specialized in XCO to compete at the same places as my wife. given a different circumstance i would probably choose to race stuff like Downieville, or the famous Ashland SuperD. that sort of racing plays a little more to my strengths...

    late edit... if you find Whistler or MSA uninspiring then i am not sure we will ever be on the same page.
    Has anyone ever pointed this out to you?

    Enjoy the WC in NY, guys. Sounds good.
    Last edited by Feideaux; 07-08-2011 at 02:58 PM.
    Ego maniacs please object to my posts.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feideaux View Post
    Has anyone ever pointed this out to you? Mabye others are entitled to their opinions, too.

    Enjoy the WC in NY, guys. Sounds good.
    never said he or anyone else wasn't entitled to an opinion. i wanted to understand his perspective and he shared the pertinent information with me to help me understand.

    i do feel that sharing a negative opinion of something without incorporating one's reason for the bias is sort of weak. i try to keep unfounded negative feelings to myself, and if i share negative impressions i try to share my own reasoning (whether others will agree is what makes discussions more fun)

    i appreciate the discussion with mtbscott. i appreciate his perspective. maybe i will also have a change of heart in the future, but XCO is IMO a good outlet for my own competitive nature and gives me some goals to chase, at least for now.
    My wife's website....
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by whybotherme View Post

    i do feel that sharing a negative opinion of something without incorporating one's reason for the bias is sort of weak. i try to keep unfounded negative feelings to myself, and if i share negative impressions i try to share my own reasoning (whether others will agree is what makes discussions more fun)

    i appreciate the discussion with mtbscott. i appreciate his perspective. maybe i will also have a change of heart in the future, but XCO is IMO a good outlet for my own competitive nature and gives me some goals to chase, at least for now.
    Continually talking about yourself is what's weak (clear now?), but fair points made.

    Back to the WC...
    Ego maniacs please object to my posts.

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    Anyone else seeing how nuts these fans are?! Way to represent USA!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feideaux View Post
    Continually talking about yourself is what's weak (clear now?), but fair points made.

    Back to the WC...
    Couldn't have said it better, the only thing missing from whybotherme's typical ramble is a blurb about how great Specialized and Crank Brothers are...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by whybotherme View Post
    that does help. i think i understand better now where you mean that the courses are uninspiring for you. what i hear is that the steeper climbing doesn't suit you so much, that you prefer rolling courses (with plenty of technical challenges). since the short course format is often very steep up and down a ski hill, it doesn't suit you. the only race that i can think of that I would classify in this manner is the Bonelli ProXCT course. i can say that this course (very short course) was one of my favorites this year! the shorter power climbs suit me well too.

    i have not done much MTB racing that didn't include some really significant climbs on jeep/fire roads. typically this is where XC races are won and lost. i never thought of myself as a climber, but have forced the issue to try to be competitive (and to keep up with the wife who is surely a climber).

    allison raced at Mellow Jonnies last year and said she enjoyed the course. i was still recovering at the time and never really left the start finish area so didn't see the course at all. one thing to note, i was unable to walk so i couldn't see anything of the racing except the feed zone where i was handing up bottles and ice bags. at somewhere like Fontana or a few other short courses i could have seen more of the race without having to hobble around. many course designers are working hard to loop the course back near the start/finish area for spectators to get a sense of what is happening in the race, having experience being at a race and not being very mobile, i can appreciate their attempts!

    i will add the caveat that it is likely that my interest in the pro level races is probably due to the fact that i have a vested interest in them (allison's racing). i watch the women's race more closely than i do the men's, though i think that is partly due to the fact that i like watching women... women's beach volleyball holds my attention much better than men's!

    btw... sounds great that you have contributed so much to the mtb community in your area. i am sure it is greatly appreciated by those that live near you!
    jeez, the more you post the bigger chode you become

  21. #21
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    Freecaster already has the full replays posted. The women's race was incredibly close for the front 10 again, just 2:33 covering the 10.

    The pack of five chasing Catharine Pendrel and Julie Bresset were really battling wheel to wheel the whole race to about the last lap where things spread out. Lots of juggling positions in that group of five. It looked like Osl was holding them up and Premont finally went around Osl and pulled a gap and went after the two in the front, it looked like she burned up a lot of energy after she took about 20 seconds of their lead and that left her near defenseless when Angvard passed at the start of the last lap and pulled a 5 second gap.

    Bresset just lit the afterburner and checked out in the last lap and put a 39 second gap on Catharine when they had generally been running within a bike length or two of each other.

    The big guns like Kalentieva and Wloszczowska weren't the factor that was expected after MSA. But Gunn-Rita made it up to 11th at +2:34, so she's making a splash, following up on her 10th at MSA at +5:38.

    Emily Batty who did so well at MSA was 5:55 back in 18th.

    1 Julie Bresset (Fra) BH - Suntour - Peisey Vallandry....................1:35:36
    2 Catharine Pendrel (Can) Luna Pro Team ......................................+0:39
    3 Annika Langvad (Den) Team Easton Rockets ...............................+1:24
    4 Marie-Helene Premont (Can) Team Maxxis - Rocky Mountain ........+1:29
    5 Georgia Gould (USA) Luna Pro Team ..........................................+1:30
    6 Irina Kalentieva (Rus) Topeak Ergon Racing Team .........................+1:49
    7 Katerina Nash (Cze) Luna Pro Team ............................................+2:02
    8 Blaza Klemencic (Slo) Felt Oetztal X - Bionic Team ......................+2:14
    9 Elisabeth Osl (Aut) Ghost Factory Racing Team............................+2:15
    10 Maja Wloszczowska (Pol) CCC Polkowice .................................+2:33

    http://freecaster.tv/mountainbike/10...a-replay-women

    http://freecaster.tv/mountainbike/10...usa-replay-men
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill View Post
    Bresset just lit the afterburner and checked out in the last lap and put a 39 second gap on Catharine when they had generally been running within a bike length or two of each other.
    Catharine had a mechanical (spare tube fell out and got jammed in the rear wheel) last lap on the descent and had to stop and get off her bike twice. However, Julie already three or four second gap at that point and probably would have held it end even if Catharine hadn't had problems.

    It was interesting race Catharine and Julie went really hard for the first two laps and then backed way off for a lap and half. Catharine thinks that was her mistake, Julie was hurting third lap but Catharine let her lead and she road slow and recovered. Fortunately for both of them they had a step or two on the field on the day.

    I know the other Luna girls said the descending in the chase back was far from quickt. The descent at Windham really isn't that technical but it is long and poor descenders seem to lose a lot of time on it.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  23. #23
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    Being ambushed by your own tube must have been a real kick in the proverbial cajones after being that close for so much of the race. I'm kinda relieved that there was some rational explanation for the size of gap as it just seemed impossible for Bresset to have that much reserve in the tank after that race pace.

    The MHP interview I read indicated that Osl was holding up the parade in that chase group, especially in the descents. Once MHP broke loose and gapped Osl that chase group order was shaken up and Osl dropped back pretty quickly. Apparently MHP had a cramp from trying to bridge to the 2 riders out front and wasn't able to respond to Langvard when she caught up. She just recovered enough to hold off Georgia at the finish line.
    Last edited by rockyuphill; 07-10-2011 at 09:38 AM.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    Catharine had a mechanical (spare tube fell out and got jammed in the rear wheel) last lap on the descent and had to stop and get off her bike twice.
    Was it Catherine's tube, or Julie's? I heard Catherine talk after the race, and I thought she said it was Julie's spare tube that fell off.

    BTW, I didn't get a chance to speak to Catherine over the weekend, but please tell her I said Congrats, and "Thanks again for excellent feedback."
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    Catharine had a mechanical (spare tube fell out and got jammed in the rear wheel) last lap on the descent and had to stop and get off her bike twice. However, Julie already three or four second gap at that point and probably would have held it end even if Catharine hadn't had problems.

    It was interesting race Catharine and Julie went really hard for the first two laps and then backed way off for a lap and half. Catharine thinks that was her mistake, Julie was hurting third lap but Catharine let her lead and she road slow and recovered. Fortunately for both of them they had a step or two on the field on the day.

    I know the other Luna girls said the descending in the chase back was far from quickt. The descent at Windham really isn't that technical but it is long and poor descenders seem to lose a lot of time on it.
    that is a pretty crazy mechanical! if you don't mind helping us all learn from the incident...

    how was her tube held on? any pictures of the setup?

    thought i had recently seen Trek riders with the spare electrical taped under the stem.

    better at Windham than Worlds or Olympics. GO C-PEN!!!!!!
    My wife's website....
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