Results 1 to 30 of 30
  1. #1
    SSOD
    Reputation: Crosstown Stew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    826

    Two-a-day Base? Is it wise?

    So here's the story, began base period training first of December and was planning to reach my peak first of April. Was doing well with my training and did my first race Feb 12, 6hr solo ss. Completed it in decent time and was planning to compete in about 12 more races starting in April, both endurance and xc.

    Well on Feb 17, I tweaked my knee from a pedal strike and proceeded to ride another 2 hours on it. Later found out I sprained my knee and was out for 4-6 weeks. I've been rehabbing my knee and it feels good to go but mid last week got a bad sinus infection and had an allergic reaction to some meds I was taking. I'm hoping to be back on the bike by this weekend, 3/26, but who knows, I'm just really frustrated with it all.

    I'm planning on starting my training program over and beginning back at Base even though it's going to put me August before I'm at peak. My question is, is two-a-days during build period wise if my body can handle it? And if so, can I cut Base period short if I get my target miles in in a shorter time? Or are there other programs that could get me to peak in only 8-10 weeks?

    It just really sucks when you put all that time in training and then miss the majority of my race season.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    12,083
    Sure two a days are fine...but you still have to limit your output to that which your body can handle...

    Sounds like you were going a little hard anyway.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,297
    You seem like an all-or-nothing kind of guy. So HELL YEAH go for the gusto!!!! What could possibly go wrong?

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,297
    P.S. Cycling two-a-days are time wasters unless they replace non-cycling commutes.

  5. #5
    SSOD
    Reputation: Crosstown Stew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    826
    Ok, ok, I get it. I realize that pushing too hard can lead to injury and overtraining and if there was a quicker way to get my endurance back I would have probably read about it somewhere. I am merely asking if anyone else has had any luck doing this. My main concern is to get my endurance back, not strength right now, and my thinking was to do two-a-days 2 or 3 times a week while focusing on endurance/ distance rides to get my miles up.

    I'm not an all-or-nothing kinda guy, just when I go from 6-7 days a week riding to 6 weeks off the bike, I have a lot of motivation to get back where I was.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,961
    i think that the specific adaptations forced by "aerobic base" type work requires a minimum duration. if you cannot meet that minimum duration and wind up break it into two separate workouts i do not think you will be able to force the desired adaptation.

    this is where the intensity has to go up to force adaptation within the time allowed. intensity is not something you really want to mess with though if you are not 100% (coming off injury people are often not 100%)

    coming back from injury can be a slow process.

    maybe look into doing sweet spot training if you have healed enough... but you will likely not get the same out of your engine as you would if you had a big base and then build/peak.
    Try to be good.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Poncharelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,411
    I believe the real magic in a base ride happens after 2.5+ hours of continuous riding.

    Plus the logistics of 1 long ride is easier than 2-a-days. Unless you're commuting of course.
    Head Coach, Ben Lomond HS MTB Team
    www.utahmtb.org
    Cycling Team and local Club:
    http://www.roostersbikersedge.com/

  8. #8
    dot
    dot is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    417
    Quote Originally Posted by Crosstown Stew
    So here's the story, began base period training first of December and was planning to reach my peak first of April. Was doing well with my training and did my first race Feb 12, 6hr solo ss. Completed it in decent time and was planning to compete in about 12 more races starting in April, both endurance and xc.

    Well on Feb 17, I tweaked my knee from a pedal strike and proceeded to ride another 2 hours on it. Later found out I sprained my knee and was out for 4-6 weeks. I've been rehabbing my knee and it feels good to go but mid last week got a bad sinus infection and had an allergic reaction to some meds I was taking. I'm hoping to be back on the bike by this weekend, 3/26, but who knows, I'm just really frustrated with it all.

    I'm planning on starting my training program over and beginning back at Base even though it's going to put me August before I'm at peak. My question is, is two-a-days during build period wise if my body can handle it? And if so, can I cut Base period short if I get my target miles in in a shorter time? Or are there other programs that could get me to peak in only 8-10 weeks?

    It just really sucks when you put all that time in training and then miss the majority of my race season.
    If it's able to and the logistics of riding twice a day doesn't bother you, that's fine.

    There's an old belief (I'd really like to find some proof for that) that aerobic development best sustained when workouts aren't further than 12 hours from each other.

    There is also a story about one coach who makes his trainees ride every 12 hours under any circumstances, either on bike or rollers if they're travelling. They ride rollers at airports, railway and bus stations they have to ride rollers even when travelling by train. It might sound ridiculous but the coach has got several olympic champions and track record holders under his belt.

  9. #9
    SSOD
    Reputation: Crosstown Stew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    826
    Hey thanks for the responses guys. Going to ease back into riding next week on the road bike and then see how I feel after that before I make up my training plan.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by flargle
    P.S. Cycling two-a-days are time wasters unless they replace non-cycling commutes.
    youre incorrect my friend... 2 a days at least 3 times a week will make you twice as fast.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,297
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbill77
    youre incorrect my friend... 2 a days at least 3 times a week will make you twice as fast.
    I'm not sure if you're serious, but why wouldn't you just ride for the same amount of time in a single session?

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by flargle
    I'm not sure if you're serious, but why wouldn't you just ride for the same amount of time in a single session?

    Strenght, endurance, speed... Break down and recoup with a break in between.. Lance Armstrong, Contador, Floyd Landis, If you know who they are preach 2 a days. I will always do 2 a days at least 3 times a week. Youre always stronger your second ride. Thats why body builders do 2 a days all the time. Your Muscles build on muscle confusion. Tony Horton P90X is a genius at it... To much steady same type training and your body becomes used to it and becomes bored. You just dont do the exact same thing twice a day..

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,297
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbill77
    Strenght, endurance, speed... Break down and recoup with a break in between.. Lance Armstrong, Contador, Floyd Landis, If you know who they are preach 2 a days. I will always do 2 a days at least 3 times a week. Youre always stronger your second ride. Thats why body builders do 2 a days all the time. Your Muscles build on muscle confusion. Tony Horton P90X is a genius at it... To much steady same type training and your body becomes used to it and becomes bored. You just dont do the exact same thing twice a day..
    So what's better, three 2-a-days per week, or six 1-a-days?

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jonw9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    748
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbill77
    Strenght, endurance, speed... Break down and recoup with a break in between.. Lance Armstrong, Contador, Floyd Landis, If you know who they are preach 2 a days. I will always do 2 a days at least 3 times a week. Youre always stronger your second ride. Thats why body builders do 2 a days all the time. Your Muscles build on muscle confusion. Tony Horton P90X is a genius at it... To much steady same type training and your body becomes used to it and becomes bored. You just dont do the exact same thing twice a day..
    Just to make sure, your point of reference is a rider consistently accused of doping, a rider caught doping, and an admitted doper (respectively)?
    Last edited by jonw9; 03-22-2011 at 09:44 AM.

  15. #15
    likes to ride bikes
    Reputation: TunicaTrails's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    893
    Whoah whoah. You could at least get the implications aligned correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonw9
    Just to make sure, your point of reference is an admitted doper, a rider caught doping, and a rider consistently accused of doping?
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbill77
    Strenght, endurance, speed... Break down and recoup with a break in between.. Lance Armstrong, Contador, Floyd Landis, If you know who they are preach 2 a days. I will always do 2 a days at least 3 times a week. Youre always stronger your second ride. Thats why body builders do 2 a days all the time. Your Muscles build on muscle confusion. Tony Horton P90X is a genius at it... To much steady same type training and your body becomes used to it and becomes bored. You just dont do the exact same thing twice a day..

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jonw9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    748
    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails
    Whoah whoah. You could at least get the implications aligned correctly.
    Fixed for you, but I was trying to go in order of decreasing severity.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,961
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbill77
    Strenght, endurance, speed... Break down and recoup with a break in between.. Lance Armstrong, Contador, Floyd Landis, If you know who they are preach 2 a days. I will always do 2 a days at least 3 times a week. Youre always stronger your second ride. Thats why body builders do 2 a days all the time. Your Muscles build on muscle confusion. Tony Horton P90X is a genius at it... To much steady same type training and your body becomes used to it and becomes bored. You just dont do the exact same thing twice a day..
    i think it is wise to follow methods that work for real people, not celebrities with special exceptions from the rules. 2 a days probably make much more sense when you add pharma into the equation.
    Try to be good.

  18. #18
    SSOD
    Reputation: Crosstown Stew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    826
    boxerbill77 thanks for that info. I know it's fairly common early in the season with riders, more road guys though.

  19. #19
    LMN
    LMN is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    4,733
    Very few top level cyclist are using two-a-days, at least two-a-days on the bike. Two-a-days where one workout is cross training (XC-skiing, gym, running, swimming, ect...) is fairly common during general preparation but very rare in specific preparation.

    In sports where technique is very critical (swimming and XC skiing for example) two-a-days are very common. The idea in those sports is that you always want to be practicing correct technique and in a fatigued state your technique falls apart. Cycling in the grand scheme of things isn't a technique sport and practicing in fatigued stated doesn't have a negative effect.

    Personally I find two 1.5hr sessions a lot more difficult then one 3hrs session. The workouts aren't harder but the extra prep and take down time eat through my energy. Plus a days that consist of workout, work, workout, sleep is not a sound long term training strategy.

    I would say if you don't have time for a single continuous long workout then you don't have time for that long workout no matter how you break it up.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,297
    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    In sports where technique is very critical (swimming and XC skiing for example) two-a-days are very common.
    In running too, I think because of both the technique issue and the eccentric loading of muscles. Jack Daniels' rule of thumb is, if you are training more than an hour per day, start doing two-a-days. (One could simply be a 30-minute jog in the morning.) One thing about running, too, is it's super-convenient to just slap on shoes and go for an easy run first thing in the morning. Anyway, not really relevant to the current thread.

  21. #21
    Hike it or Bike it!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    288
    Quote Originally Posted by Crosstown Stew
    So here's the story, began base period training first of December and was planning to reach my peak first of April. Was doing well with my training and did my first race Feb 12, 6hr solo ss. Completed it in decent time and was planning to compete in about 12 more races starting in April, both endurance and xc.

    Well on Feb 17, I tweaked my knee from a pedal strike and proceeded to ride another 2 hours on it. Later found out I sprained my knee and was out for 4-6 weeks. I've been rehabbing my knee and it feels good to go but mid last week got a bad sinus infection and had an allergic reaction to some meds I was taking. I'm hoping to be back on the bike by this weekend, 3/26, but who knows, I'm just really frustrated with it all.

    I'm planning on starting my training program over and beginning back at Base even though it's going to put me August before I'm at peak. My question is, is two-a-days during build period wise if my body can handle it? And if so, can I cut Base period short if I get my target miles in in a shorter time? Or are there other programs that could get me to peak in only 8-10 weeks?

    It just really sucks when you put all that time in training and then miss the majority of my race season.
    I'd worry about the overall gestalt of the training effect being disrupted - as in the phase of "exercise, recovery, supercompensation and do it all over again" without adequate rest of 12-24-36 hours between your sessions. In other words, if not done correctly, you could actually see a decrease in your shape instead of an increase. Now if one of those sessions was purely active recovery and timed within the micro and macro plan of where you are heading....

    I just wouldn't try to rush things and cut corners by thinking 2 a day's are going to get you back quicker and shorten your base pattern. Then again, I'm not a coach or a trainer.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    605
    Keep records of the distance and time....if you start to feel tired then stop. If you are getting faster then go to 6-a day's

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,424
    Shouldn't base training be conducted at the length of your expected race?

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,297
    Quote Originally Posted by D1PHAM
    Shouldn't base training be conducted at the length of your expected race?
    No. The purpose of base training is aerobic fitness. For races lasting 2 minutes and longer, this is the primary energy system. Todd Wells doesn't do marathon racing, but he apparently puts in 35-hour weeks during his base training. Lydiard trained his half-milers alongside his marathoners during the "marathon training" phase. Peter Snell actually competed in a marathon less than three months before breaking the world records in the half-mile and mile. (Jan 27 and Feb 3 1962)

    "Base" refers to building a solid base of aerobic fitness (like the bottom of a pyramid) before adding event-specific fitness on top of it.
    Last edited by flargle; 03-23-2011 at 07:04 AM.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MrEconomics's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,572
    Hunter Allen put together my base training plan and he had some days with a morning ride and an evening ride.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jonw9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    748
    I am n o coach, but wouldn't something like 1-1.5 hours in the morning with some intervals, etc followed by ~2 hours of low HR base miles in the afternoon be a decent compromise?

    You get your intensity in the first workout when you have the energy, and the afternoon is just some relaxed spinning to continue building the base?

  27. #27
    dot
    dot is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    417
    Quote Originally Posted by jonw9
    I am n o coach, but wouldn't something like 1-1.5 hours in the morning with some intervals, etc followed by ~2 hours of low HR base miles in the afternoon be a decent compromise?

    You get your intensity in the first workout when you have the energy, and the afternoon is just some relaxed spinning to continue building the base?
    also rumour has it that some local old school coaches who train young pro wannabes (who have no issues with time management) often make them ride moderate 2.5 hours in the morning and easy 1.5 hours in the evening with a nap in between during base period.

    anyway, my info is always from the days of yore, not modern powermeter stuff.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,330
    If your riding for CV fitness the I don't think it matters how you do it really, just do as much as possible, if your trying to build strength it might be different muscle recovery time, but if your not over damaging your muscles then fine.

    I can see the logic in, fast in the am then a slower ride in the pm to.

    When I used to commute to work, I used to race to work being always late mainly, then come back slow as knackered by then, then I'd get home get bored and go out for a spin on my bike, ahhhhh to be young again

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    562
    I do 2 a days a lot since most of my riding is done during my commute. Today for example, I did 1.5 hours on the mtb (1/2 trails) on my way to work at a moderate pace. I will most likely stay on the road for my ride home and use it as a real easy recovery ride, which will take about an hour. I have been combining workouts with my commute for a few years now and for the most part I think it works well. It is definitely the most family friendly training plan for me. I just try my best to incorporate my commutes into the training I should be doing.

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    285
    I do regular 2 a days, but like LMN mentioned.. they're not both bike sessions.. I run or swim most every morning for varying amounts and almost always bike in the afternoon/evening, or following breakfast on the weekends.

    8 hours is enough recovery for another workout as long as you aren't doing it all the time. I do two true two-a days, and the other one, the run is so short it doesn't not create much of a training stress.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •