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  1. #1
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    Power people Steady power HR Rise

    Question: Should keep following the power number even though the heart rate rose steeply at the end of the endurance zone workout? It is better to hold to the power zone and ignore heart rate or back off the power to stay in heart rate zone?

    I am new to power training although I have been training with heart rate for years. I am just recently finding how much my power would fall off at the end of a workout. Any experience with this would be welcome.

    Power people Steady power HR Rise-power-graph.png

    Power people Steady power HR Rise-heart-rate-graph.png
    Last edited by Drider85; 01-20-2014 at 12:13 PM.

  2. #2
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    Power people

    This is one of the problems with using a heart rate monitor for pacing. Changes in the speed that your heart is beating at don't always track exactly with effort. A heart rate monitor measures how fast your heart is beating. It doesn't measure how hard you're working. There are many different factors that can affect how fast or slow your heart beats on any given day (heat, fatigue, illness, caffeine etc) .

    http://running.competitor.com/2012/0...aining_47287/2

    For the same power output your exercise heart rate can vary from day to day and also vary across the course of a training session, even when you're maintaining a constant power output.

    Where you maintain a constant power output and perceived exertion throughout the session, but your heart rate continues to climb, you're most likely experiencing cardiac drift. Essentially your heart rate monitor is lying to you about how hard you're trying.

    http://running.competitor.com/2012/0...aining_48317/1

    As you have a power meter I'd follow that for pacing and stick to the target power zones that you're aiming for throughout the ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    As you have a power meter I'd follow that for pacing and stick to the target power zones that you're aiming for throughout the ride.
    This. That is why power meters are so helpful and training with HR only can be so challenging.

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    Awesome! I think I will use HR with a grain of salt or not at all. The concept that my heart rate can change at a fixed output within a workout do to body heat, dehydration, that 5 hr energy I popped before seems quite likely.

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    Power people

    If you're taking things like 5hr energy, which are high in caffeine, then that's going to have an effect on how fast your heart beats during exercise, resulting in an elevated heart rate. For pacing in those circumstances you're generally better off just using power.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkro...-energy-drink/

    "It’s important to note that the actual caffeine content in 5-Hour Energy drinks is not listed on the label, and is not published by the company, which simply states that a 5-hour energy shot contains “about as much caffeine as a cup of premium coffee” while an extra-strength 5-Hour Energy contains “about as much caffeine as 12-ounces of coffee.”

    Consumer Reports once estimated the caffeine content of original 5-Hour Energy at 207 mg; the Center for Science in the Public Interest estimated it at 215 mg. So here are the caffeine data on these products:

    1 5-Hour Energy Drink: Approx 207-215 mg caffeine
    1 Monster Energy Drink: 10 mg per ounce, or 160 mg per 16-ounce can
    1 12-ounce cup of name-brand brewed coffee: 230 mg (Courtesy of Caribou Coffee.)
    Forbes

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/melanieh...5-hour-energy/

  7. #7
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    Cardiac drift.

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    Another term used to explain this issue is "aerobic decoupling". If your HR drifts from your power more than 5% over the course of the workout it's a clear indication that your aerobic conditioning needs some work.

    Are You Fit? Aerobic Endurance and Decoupling | TrainingPeaks

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    BTW, if you're using power software it will tell you exactly what your aerobic decoupling % is. If you don't have any software I recommend Golden Cheetah It's free and is an excellent training tool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    This is one of the problems with using a heart rate monitor for pacing.
    Or is this the problem with using power meters for pacing?

    It can be argued that your heart rate is a measure of how hard you are working. You experience cardiac drift because it is getting harder to maintain that power output. To put it terms of FTP, your FTP after 3hrs of continuous riding is likely lower then your FTP when you are fresh. Given this, is it appropriate to ride at the same power output for the whole ride?

    Personally I think heart rate needs to be combined with power to effectively estimate training load. Particularly when we look at MTBing, power meters on mountain bikes do not reflect all the work a rider does.
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    Re: Power people Steady power HR Rise

    For base training Friel recommends using HR and once the build period starts then use PWR. The problem is most cyclists don't do a true base period (LSD), choosing to do more TH and SST work instead, in these circumstances power is the most reliable metric. IF you're using PWR for an LSD/endurance ride your goal wattage would be in zone 2-3, so, 56%-90% of your FTP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post

    For the same power output your exercise heart rate can vary from day to day and also vary across the course of a training session, even when you're maintaining a constant power output.
    I made the jump to training with power zones instead of HR zones about six weeks, and definitely it opened up my eyes to how much HR can be influenced by stuff. Power I do the same amount of work, where I can physically control HR and not really get the workout I needing. It was best the change I could've made for my training!

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    It's pretty tough to do a "true base period" in the Northern 1/2 of the US where we have snow on the ground for most of the winter. Therefore intensity takes its place because we would all go crazy doing volume on the trainer.

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    Not in agreement with this. Your base should not include "crazy volume" anyway. Winter training (Cat 2) for me is 7-8 hrs max a week. With a mix of HIT and Tempo work.

    Long base mile training rides(Junk Miles) are old school and proven to be inefficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by skibum1321 View Post
    It's pretty tough to do a "true base period" in the Northern 1/2 of the US where we have snow on the ground for most of the winter. Therefore intensity takes its place because we would all go crazy doing volume on the trainer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Not in agreement with this. Your base should not include "crazy volume" anyway. Winter training (Cat 2) for me is 7-8 hrs max a week. With a mix of HIT and Tempo work.

    Long base mile training rides(Junk Miles) are old school and proven to be inefficient.
    I don't agree with the loads of miles approach either. That was a response to a previous post that talked about a "true base period", which typically means a bunch of LSD. My winter is a mix of intensity and Z2 but most weeks are probably 8-10 hrs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Long base mile training rides(Junk Miles) are old school and proven to be inefficient.
    That is a pretty strong statement there. Particularly when you consider that most racers are doing long base miles right now.

    If you have the time to put them in base miles are critical, probably the most critical part of your training. It is that work that allows you to raise you threshold power to new levels.

    I would actually say that building a big strong base through long steady miles is a proven approach. It has obvious limitations for many people; time and weather being the most prominent. But that doesn't change the fact that when it is done it is high effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    That is a pretty strong statement there. Particularly when you consider that most racers are doing long base miles right now.

    If you have the time to put them in base miles are critical, probably the most critical part of your training. It is that work that allows you to raise you threshold power to new levels.

    I would actually say that building a big strong base through long steady miles is a proven approach. It has obvious limitations for many people; time and weather being the most prominent. But that doesn't change the fact that when it is done it is high effective.

    Quality base are important yes. Riding around in Z2 for hours on end is "junk". During the base period you are developing Muscular Endurance. While is can do that in Z2, it very slow and not the most efficient way of obtaining a base. Chunk rides with Threshold sets should be used if your base has suffered due to lack of training.

    Also your FTP is increased more with "Sweet Spot" and "Tempo" rides per Allen Hunter and these zones should be your base/foundation for your training.

    Quality of training miles will beat quantity of miles any day.

    You should really pick up "Training and Racing with a Power Meter".
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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    Where you maintain a constant power output and perceived exertion throughout the session, but your heart rate continues to climb, you're most likely experiencing cardiac drift. Essentially your heart rate monitor is lying to you about how hard you're trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    It can be argued that your heart rate is a measure of how hard you are working. You experience cardiac drift because it is getting harder to maintain that power output. To put it terms of FTP, your FTP after 3hrs of continuous riding is likely lower then your FTP when you are fresh. Given this, is it appropriate to ride at the same power output for the whole ride?

    Quote Originally Posted by xterrafreak View Post
    IF you're using PWR for an LSD/endurance ride your goal wattage would be in zone 2-3, so, 56%-90% of your FTP.
    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Quality base are important yes. Riding around in Z2 for hours on end is "junk"..

    Call me a Zone 2 connoisseur. I have a pretty narrowly defined Zone 2 HR and power range. In my case currently, it's 130-144bpm and 185-240 watts, with a 53-194 HR range and a 331w FTP. My mountain bike and touring bike are not going to have a power meter so it's important for me to understand zones under both systems.

    I focus on keeping the workout in those zones during base, which I can't say I'm always able to stay within depending upon the ride, but with the help of alerts on my Garmin, it's getting more effective. You can do sprints up short rollers and still stay below 150bpm. It's not difficult for me at all to fall below 67% of max HR several hours into a ride, while still going at a pretty fun pace. I do have to attribute that to miles and miles of "junk" which will hopefully start to be of use in the NUE races

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    Quote Originally Posted by chomxxo View Post
    Call me a Zone 2 connoisseur; ) I have a pretty narrowly defined Zone 2 HR and power range. In my case currently, it's 130-144bpm and 185-240 watts, with a 53-194 HR range and a 331w FTP. My mountain bike and touring bike is not going to have a power meter so it's important for me to understand zones under both systems.

    I focus on keeping the workout in those zones during base, which I can't say I'm always able to stay within depending upon the ride, but with the help of alerts on my Garmin, it's getting more effective. You can do sprints up short rollers and still stay below 150bpm. It's not difficult for me at all to fall below 67% of max HR well-into a ride, while still going at a pretty fun pace. I do have to attribute that to miles and miles of "junk" which will hopefully start to be of use in the NUE races
    Honestly that is awesome that it works for you. Our Z2 range is very similar, now i'm pretty interested in your approach. How many hours a week do you put in Z2?

    I also race NUE. I would interested in seeing what your zone distribution is during the race.
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    Re: Power people Steady power HR Rise

    I wish I had the time and warm weather to do a TRUE base. But I'm stuck on the rollers all winter with the occasional outdoor long ride when temps are 40 and above which isn't very often this year.

    Getting back to the OP's question. Power is very effective at higher intensities because you can properly hit the exact intensity needed for a given interval. With an endurance ride its nice to just ride and enjoy it without stressing about power numbers, just keep your intensity in check, monitor your HR and after the ride check your power averages.

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    Definitely looks like cardiac drift, but more so then just drift caused by dehydration and vaso dilation. I think the OP is working pretty hard and the increase in HR is to combat the production of lactic acid. I agree with all those who suggest that the intensity is too high for the level of fitness.

    As far as LSD and interval training during a base phase I tend to agree with LMN mostly based on his direct observations of a very high level of competition. Put in the work and get those miles in. However I find it quite boring to just do that so I add in a little bit of intervals just to keep things interesting and so I don't get board.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drider85 View Post
    Awesome! I think I will use HR with a grain of salt or not at all. The concept that my heart rate can change at a fixed output within a workout do to body heat, dehydration, that 5 hr energy I popped before seems quite likely.
    Yeah,
    I took a seminar from Dr Stacy Sims of Osomo nutrition a while back. I remember her "number" on caffeine was 25-50 mg per hr depending on tolerance and your weight. After that, then benefits diminish and the drawbacks mount

    So, that 5 hr energy may not have been the best choice. Maybe a Nuun kola nut, or lemon tea might have been better. They have 25 mg per tablet.

    Good luck with the power training.
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  23. #23
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    I have read "Racing and training with power a meter." It is a good read with a lot of excellent information. I don't 100% agree with your interpretation of information in the book.

    You are right, for any single unit of training time your FTP is increased more with "Sweet Spot" and "Tempo." But that is only for a single workout in isolation. It is difficult to string together multiple workouts or multiple weeks of workouts if you training is nothing more than a steady diet of intensity workouts.

    The other thing to consider is progression. People respond remarkably well to training, after 3-6 weeks you have experienced nearly all the adaptations you are going to get from a particularly training method. If your training right now consists primarily of intensity work how are you going to change it in March and April to keep on improving?

    As I had mentioned earlier, most successful racers spend their winters doing LSD. If you read more work by Hunter Allen you will see that he too includes lots of LSD work in his programs. Actually if you read "racing and training with a power meter" you will see that he includes it in there.

    The key thing is your training needs to overload you. If you only have 8 hours to train then, depending on your level, you might need to add intensity to achieve overload. But if you have a bit more time then the intensity isn't necessary.

    For instance I have time to train about 15hrs a week. Right now I don't need to hit 15hrs to achieve overload, by the end of a 12hr week made up primarily of zone 2 work I am pretty well done. In a couple of weeks I will be hitting that 15hr mark. After that that point to achieve overload I will add intensity.



    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Quality base are important yes. Riding around in Z2 for hours on end is "junk". During the base period you are developing Muscular Endurance. While is can do that in Z2, it very slow and not the most efficient way of obtaining a base. Chunk rides with Threshold sets should be used if your base has suffered due to lack of training.

    Also your FTP is increased more with "Sweet Spot" and "Tempo" rides per Allen Hunter and these zones should be your base/foundation for your training.

    Quality of training miles will beat quantity of miles any day.

    You should really pick up "Training and Racing with a Power Meter".
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  24. #24
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    Do you XC ski?

    A lot of base work can be done on skis. In my neck of the woods winters are pretty long and snowy. My winter base is probably 70% ski, 30% trainer.

    It takes a while to build up to but you can log some big days on skis. One of the guys in town did a cool 100km ski yesterday.

    Quote Originally Posted by xterrafreak View Post
    I wish I had the time and warm weather to do a TRUE base. But I'm stuck on the rollers all winter with the occasional outdoor long ride when temps are 40 and above which isn't very often this year.

    Getting back to the OP's question. Power is very effective at higher intensities because you can properly hit the exact intensity needed for a given interval. With an endurance ride its nice to just ride and enjoy it without stressing about power numbers, just keep your intensity in check, monitor your HR and after the ride check your power averages.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drider85 View Post
    Awesome! I think I will use HR with a grain of salt or not at all. The concept that my heart rate can change at a fixed output within a workout do to body heat, dehydration, that 5 hr energy I popped before seems quite likely.
    So I wouldn't do that, as better-stated by others. BTW have you checked out the ingredients of 5 Hour Energy? The B-vitamins megadose is probably not dangerous, but just not useful.

    Getting back to your OP, it looks like your intent was to hold onto about 225w for 1:30. You were able to stay within HR Zone 2ish for about 30 minutes at that wattage, and then your heart rate jumped to Zone 3. At :45 you started getting pretty winded and moved into Zone 4 at about 160bpm. Looks like you took a breather for a minute at :50.

    After resumption, the heart rate went back up and continued to steadily climb to 175bpm near the finish.

    So, based upon this workout, 225w is going to be too high for an endurance Zone 2 workout. I'd suggest trying the opposite: Start pedaling for 1:30 and hold onto 200w or so until your heart rate gets back up to 145bpm. Then back off a little to whatever wattage keeps it from going above that but not too far below.

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