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  1. #1
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    Power Data for Pro/Elite Cat1 Endurance Males

    Anyone have data on these guys road preferably but mountain would be ok too.

    Are they all doing 4 watts/kg aerobically for multi hour rides?

    I saw Jeremiah Bishops data from the mohican 100 - 2009 and he was at like 3.3 watts/kg IIRC but I'm looking for something more than 1 file.

    just re-found his data from saris.com:
    Ride stats:

    Distance 102.35 miles
    Duration 7:06:46
    Work 5759 kJ
    Avg Speed 14.38 mph
    Avg Cadence 65 rpm
    Avg HR 150 bpm
    Avg Power 225 watts (3.28 watts/kg)
    Max Power 1502 watts (21.93 watts/kg)

    Peak power:

    Power Watts/kg
    5 sec 736 10.74
    30 sec 552 8.05
    1 min 517 7.55
    5 min 359 5.24
    10 min 335 4.9
    30 min 293 4.28
    60 min 278 4.06
    120 min 262 3.82
    Last edited by fsrftc; 06-22-2010 at 01:52 PM.

  2. #2
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    There are a few on the SRM web page including this data for Greg Henderson from the 2009 Paris - Roubaix

    eg: http://www.srm.de/index.php?option=c...id=163&lang=us

    "The overall average for the race: 286 watts (3.9 W/kg), cadence 76 rpm, 38.7 km/h.

    His maximum power values for this race are:

    •1 second 1,226 Watt (16.6 W/kg)
    •1 minute: 585 Watts (7.9 W/kg)
    •4 minutes: 446 Watts (6.0 W/kg)
    •20 minutes: 371 Watts (5.0 W/kg)

    For the first two hours of the race, he rode with an average of 330 Watts (4.5 W/kg) and an average speed of 45 km/h, which must have been superhard. His smoothed power curve went down constantly, and in the last hour the average power was just 240 Watts (3.2 W/kg). But after nearly 6.5 hours of racing - most of the time in a breakaway - and about 6.400 calories burned, this is not surprising."
    SRM.de

  3. #3
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    MTB race power files tend to be pretty low.

    Last year at Test of Metal (a 3hr MTB race) Catharine averaged 4.1 watts/kg, significantly below threshold.

    I would say all the top guys and girls can fairly easily average in excess of 4/watts per kg for extended periods of time on the road.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc

    I saw Jeremiah Bishops data from the mohican 100 - 2009 and he was at like 3.3 watts/kg IIRC but I'm looking for something more than 1 file.

    just re-found his data from saris.com:
    Ride stats:

    Distance 102.35 miles
    Duration 7:06:46
    Work 5759 kJ
    Avg Speed 14.38 mph
    Avg Cadence 65 rpm
    Avg HR 150 bpm
    Avg Power 225 watts (3.28 watts/kg)
    Max Power 1502 watts (21.93 watts/kg)

    Peak power:

    Power Watts/kg
    5 sec 736 10.74
    30 sec 552 8.05
    1 min 517 7.55
    5 min 359 5.24
    10 min 335 4.9
    30 min 293 4.28
    60 min 278 4.06
    120 min 262 3.82
    Wow...that is actually surprisingly low, IMO.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    MTB race power files tend to be pretty low.

    Last year at Test of Metal (a 3hr MTB race) Catharine averaged 4.1 watts/kg, significantly below threshold.

    I would say all the top guys and girls can fairly easily average in excess of 4/watts per kg for extended periods of time on the road.
    what would you consider extended 3, 4+ hours? I would assume this is below race pace HR averages as well, correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by XCFred
    Wow...that is actually surprisingly low, IMO.

    from the limited data I've seen most of the top finishers for 100 milers are in the 3.2-3.4 range, but remember they've riden for 6-8 and sometimes 9 hours at this pace. Also this isn't a normalized file, my guess is after normalization it would be near 4 watts.

  7. #7
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    Just went to a male, 45ish age, Cat 1 roadie's files (multi-time amateur road race state champion--in a flat state). I have a few dozen of his files for long, flat 3-4 hr group rides over a multi-year span--most of them hard/spirited group rides on the road with pros and other cat 1s. His best 4 hour maximal average power for those rides is 3.33 watts/kg. Using normalized power it jumps to 3.52. His threshold is more like 4.3
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    from the limited data I've seen most of the top finishers for 100 milers are in the 3.2-3.4 range, but remember they've riden for 6-8 and sometimes 9 hours at this pace. Also this isn't a normalized file, my guess is after normalization it would be near 4 watts.
    NP would be quite a bit higher I'd imagine. Keep in mind for avg's also if there's a lot of singletrack or even wide open fire road descents, it also means a lot of time not pedaling, so all those 0w seconds add up.

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    thanks for the link, 4.5 watts for 2 hours is pretty impressive. IIRC Landis regularly did 4.3+watt/kg rides for 5-6 hours in training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    Anyone have data on these guys road preferably but mountain would be ok too.

    Are they all doing 4 watts/kg aerobically for multi hour rides?

    I saw Jeremiah Bishops data from the mohican 100 - 2009 and he was at like 3.3 watts/kg IIRC but I'm looking for something more than 1 file.

    just re-found his data from saris.com:
    Ride stats:

    Distance 102.35 miles
    Duration 7:06:46
    Work 5759 kJ
    Avg Speed 14.38 mph
    Avg Cadence 65 rpm
    Avg HR 150 bpm
    Avg Power 225 watts (3.28 watts/kg)
    Max Power 1502 watts (21.93 watts/kg)

    Peak power:

    Power Watts/kg
    5 sec 736 10.74
    30 sec 552 8.05
    1 min 517 7.55
    5 min 359 5.24
    10 min 335 4.9
    30 min 293 4.28
    60 min 278 4.06
    120 min 262 3.82
    Cadence average surprised me, except when I realized that it probably includes zeros.
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    Quote Originally Posted by millennium
    Just went to a male, 45ish age, Cat 1 roadie's files (multi-time amateur road race state champion--in a flat state). I have a few dozen of his files for long, flat 3-4 hr group rides over a multi-year span--most of them hard/spirited group rides on the road with pros and other cat 1s. His best 4 hour maximal average power for those rides is 3.33 watts/kg. Using normalized power it jumps to 3.52. His threshold is more like 4.3

    What state? In Colorado those would be Cat 2/3 at best.

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    Average power only tells part of the story. There may be a ton of coasting and soft pedaling. But how much time is spent at threshold or above? a 6hr ride with 2hrs at 400 and 4hrs at 175 is going to average 250.. but that would certainly be a strong performance! Normalized Power on the other hand would be 310watts, and more representative of what the athlete is capable of had the effort been steady paced.

    Normalized Power would be a much better indicator. If you want the biggest average power number possible, ride ISO power, keep it steady at high Tempo for 3-4hrs and you'll see what you can do for 3-4hrs. In a race, that same athlete would probably see average power that is 20%+ lower, but Normalized power that is probably better (if they were motivated and digging deep) than what they can do in a 3-4hr High Tempo pace.

    The repeated efforts above threshold have a huge cost that is not represented by average power. Normalized Power does a much better job.

    But for 3-4hrs I bet the best Cat 1's are over 4watt/kg NP, and if they had to (but who'd want to?), would probably be able to do the same as average power on a steady 3-4hr High Tempo pace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by perryr
    Average power only tells part of the story. There may be a ton of coasting and soft pedaling. But how much time is spent at threshold or above? a 6hr ride with 2hrs at 400 and 4hrs at 175 is going to average 250.. but that would certainly be a strong performance! Normalized Power on the other hand would be 310watts, and more representative of what the athlete is capable of had the effort been steady paced.

    Normalized Power would be a much better indicator. If you want the biggest average power number possible, ride ISO power, keep it steady at high Tempo for 3-4hrs and you'll see what you can do for 3-4hrs. In a race, that same athlete would probably see average power that is 20%+ lower, but Normalized power that is probably better (if they were motivated and digging deep) than what they can do in a 3-4hr High Tempo pace.

    The repeated efforts above threshold have a huge cost that is not represented by average power. Normalized Power does a much better job.

    But for 3-4hrs I bet the best Cat 1's are over 4watt/kg NP, and if they had to (but who'd want to?), would probably be able to do the same as average power on a steady 3-4hr High Tempo pace.
    I don't get above threshold HR much if at all in endurance races (3.5+ hours), maybe i'm doing it wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    What state? In Colorado those would be Cat 2/3 at best.
    That's why I said it was a flat state (Florida)--power to weight not as important in flat areas. He's a biggish guy (at least for serious cyclists)--his actual power avg for 4 hours was 270, and this threshold about 350. Also, remember his age--45ish. Finally, this guy has been racing for many, many years--his tactics are second to none.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    I don't get above threshold HR much if at all in endurance races (3.5+ hours), maybe i'm doing it wrong?
    I have some data files from long rides, and a few long races. It really depends on the course, but as far as power output, if its a climbing course, you will see huge amounts of time spent at Threshold and above.. with more than one would think at Anaerobic Capacity power levels. Granted the efforts are short, but when you tally em all up, its a ton of time at very high power outputs. With long descents, great fitness and recovery between efforts, athletes can accumulate scary amounts of time at high power levels (threshold and above).

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    Quote Originally Posted by perryr
    I have some data files from long rides, and a few long races. It really depends on the course, but as far as power output, if its a climbing course, you will see huge amounts of time spent at Threshold and above.. with more than one would think at Anaerobic Capacity power levels. Granted the efforts are short, but when you tally em all up, its a ton of time at very high power outputs. With long descents, great fitness and recovery between efforts, athletes can accumulate scary amounts of time at high power levels (threshold and above).
    oh i can see that but my HR never reaches LT levels, i should have specified HR not power levels.

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    Looking at another file I have 250 watts for a 20 minute effort from a 60kg cyclist.

    This was a maximal off road effort. The guy who did is very fast, races world cups, and has an FTP of 330 watts.

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    I have a bunch of files from solo road rides in rolling/moderately hilly terrain with NP of 4 W/kg and up. 69-70kg, NP 285 W +/- for a 4-4.5 hours. That's enough to make me feel like I've done some good work, but ending the ride short of totally shelled. I'm in that good Cat 1/bad pro zone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XCFred
    Wow...that is actually surprisingly low, IMO.

    low for a 7 hour race?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bioteknik
    low for a 7 hour race?
    I guess probably not that low for a super long MTB race. I've similar avg power numbers for a 5-7 hour road rides, but road riding is a different beast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 42t
    I have a bunch of files from solo road rides in rolling/moderately hilly terrain with NP of 4 W/kg and up. 69-70kg, NP 285 W +/- for a 4-4.5 hours. That's enough to make me feel like I've done some good work, but ending the ride short of totally shelled. I'm in that good Cat 1/bad pro zone.
    my whole point of the thread is to figure out where I'm at compared to the cat1/pro level. And apparently I'm "there" according to my data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    Looking at another file I have 250 watts for a 20 minute effort from a 60kg cyclist.

    This was a maximal off road effort. The guy who did is very fast, races world cups, and has an FTP of 330 watts.
    looks like a typo...did you mean 350 watts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    looks like a typo...did you mean 350 watts?

    No I meant 330 watts. 330 watts propels a 134lb rider pretty quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    No I meant 330 watts. 330 watts propels a 134lb rider pretty quickly.
    no for the 20 minute 250/60 is only 4.1667 which isn't "big" per se

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    no for the 20 minute 250/60 is only 4.1667 which isn't "big" per se
    That was power for a MTB 20 minute effort. The same time duration on the road 350 would be his number (6 watts/kg). Which is good enough for 100th at a world cup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    No I meant 330 watts. 330 watts propels a 134lb rider pretty quickly.
    For this rider, is the 330 watts for 20 min a normalized power or average power? Typically on a trail I find my normalized power is about 10% to 30% above the average power due to VI.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2UTH DR
    For this rider, is the 330 watts for 20 min a normalized power or average power? Typically on a trail I find my normalized power is about 10% to 30% above the average power due to VI.

    It is average power for 1hr effort on the road.

    Trail numbers are a fair bit lower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    from the limited data I've seen most of the top finishers for 100 milers are in the 3.2-3.4 range, but remember they've riden for 6-8 and sometimes 9 hours at this pace. Also this isn't a normalized file, my guess is after normalization it would be near 4 watts.
    I was reading "Racing and Training With A Powermeter" this weekend and they refer to Jeremiah's ride. NP was 274, and his weight is 68-69kg, so ya, right around 4w/kg for the duration. His FTP is 390.. thats gotta get it done!

    With that kinda FTP, his 3-4hr NP is probably getting close to 5w/kg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by perryr
    I was reading "Racing and Training With A Powermeter" this weekend and they refer to Jeremiah's ride. NP was 274, and his weight is 68-69kg, so ya, right around 4w/kg for the duration. His FTP is 390.. thats gotta get it done!

    With that kinda FTP, his 3-4hr NP is probably getting close to 5w/kg.
    Just curious, what's your source for his 390 watt FTP?
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    Quote Originally Posted by XCFred
    Just curious, what's your source for his 390 watt FTP?
    In the book where they refer to Jeremiah's ride, they state his "FTP" as 390w. They then go on to describe how he paced the event relative to his FTP, and how knowing his FTP allowed him to stay within power ranges to help conserve glycogen.

    The new book has some cool added sections on pacing and fatigue profiling. They also have quite a menu of new workouts, along with some good case studies. Plenty of redundancy with Ver 1, but still worth the read for the extra stuff.

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    I thought the 2nd edition of the book was great... ...and that the 390 FTP number for Bishop was impressive and revealing. I guess there is a reason I'm a working stiff and not riding for Cannondale! (Although I'd say I'm not too bad for a 41 year old washed up married man with a wife, 2 kids, and 3 employees to look after in addition to finding time to train.)

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    There's a neat little calculator on analyticcycling.com. It's not perfect, but it gives you a good idea. I took some stats I found on Lance Armstrong from the 2004 Alp Dhuez TT and punched them in. 15,500m in 2381s with 1160m of ascent. I assumed LA at 70kg plus the weight of his bike at 7kg. It spit out an average of 444 watts. 6.35 watts/kg. I'd say if you're close to 6 watts/kg at FTP, that's pro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simonster
    . I assumed LA at 70kg plus the weight of his bike at 7kg. It spit out an average of 444 watts. 6.35 watts/kg. I'd say if you're close to 6 watts/kg at FTP, that's pro.
    You forgot to specify time - i.e., a 6 w/kg FTP.

    I can do 6 w/kg, but only for about 3 minutes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simonster
    There's a neat little calculator on analyticcycling.com. It's not perfect, but it gives you a good idea. I took some stats I found on Lance Armstrong from the 2004 Alp Dhuez TT and punched them in. 15,500m in 2381s with 1160m of ascent. I assumed LA at 70kg plus the weight of his bike at 7kg. It spit out an average of 444 watts. 6.35 watts/kg. I'd say if you're close to 6 watts/kg at FTP, that's pro.
    6 watts/kg at FTP is Absalon territory. I would say anybody with reasonable technical skills and a FTP of 5+ is a decent regional Pro.

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    LMN, what FTP numbers do you see for your Cat 1 mtb racers?

    (I don't have pro aspirations--I'm 41 and am relatively new to cycling--but I'm hoping in a few years to be competitive in the 40+ Cat 1 races).

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    6 watts/kg at FTP is Absalon territory. I would say anybody with reasonable technical skills and a FTP of 5+ is a decent regional Pro.

    ....Armstrong territory, also. Just read this before finding this thread...6.7 w/kg....yikes.

    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/46...best-form.aspx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatorback
    LMN, what FTP numbers do you see for your Cat 1 mtb racers?

    (I don't have pro aspirations--I'm 41 and am relatively new to cycling--but I'm hoping in a few years to be competitive in the 40+ Cat 1 races).

    I actually don't have many data points for riders at that level. I guess that 4.0 to 4.5 for 1hr is a decent Cat 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatorback
    LMN, what FTP numbers do you see for your Cat 1 mtb racers?

    (I don't have pro aspirations--I'm 41 and am relatively new to cycling--but I'm hoping in a few years to be competitive in the 40+ Cat 1 races).
    From the data I'm seeing It's relative to your locale. A podium Cat 1 MTBer in Colorado (and likely California as well) is pushing 4.75-5watts/kg then depending on technical skills it can be leveled out on the single track. Top 10 is likely at 4.5ish for a minimum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    From the data I'm seeing It's relative to your locale. A podium Cat 1 MTBer in Colorado (and likely California as well) is pushing 4.75-5watts/kg then depending on technical skills it can be leveled out on the single track. Top 10 is likely at 4.5ish for a minimum.
    I live and race in Florida and would guess that the riders who podium in Cat 1 here are in fact in the upper 4s and 5 watts/kg range. I'm above 4.0 watts/kg and have some work to do before getting on the podium in a Cat 1 race is a realistic goal. There are some seriously fast riders out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    From the data I'm seeing It's relative to your locale. A podium Cat 1 MTBer in Colorado (and likely California as well) is pushing 4.75-5watts/kg then depending on technical skills it can be leveled out on the single track. Top 10 is likely at 4.5ish for a minimum.

    Would you believe me if I told you that a top 20 in elite at Sea Otter was done by a guy with a FTP of 4.8? Or that the mens elite podium at some Santa Ynez had guys with a FTP of under 5? Or that guys racing with JHK at world cups have FTPs just over 5?

    If someone is racing Cat 1 and they tell you they have an FTP of 5.0 they are either:
    a) a road racer
    b) in need of someone to properly calibrate their PM
    c) racing elite in the next race because they won by 5 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    Would you believe me if I told you that a top 20 in elite at Sea Otter was done by a guy with a FTP of 4.8?
    Horses for courses!

    I've had some great rides at National Level events.. short track, XC, TT, fastest overall times, a good variety of courses and distance from 4min TT's to 3hr XC's. I also have a few thousand hours of power files from both training and racing, and I've never done an hour at 4.75. In fact, I've never done an hour (avg power) thats very close to 4.75.

    Most people "calculate" their FTP, rather than get the number from an hour. This in itself creates a margin of error.

    The numbers people put out in training, on the road, may not be what they can do on the course. Or, people may be able to do more on the course than they can do in training.

    Most "calculated" FTP is 95% of a 20min TT. What % of that 20min can they do for 2-3hr when normalized? What is their fatigue Profile, this alone can range from 2-10% or more, and drop like a stone past 1hr. Some athletes handle repeated efforts significantly better than others, which can easily make up for a 10% difference in FTP.

    FTP is good for setting training zones, but beyond that it is not going to determine the outcome of a race. FTP varies broadly from athlete to athlete, and it really comes down to who has the best legs and is best suited for the course. For example, larger riders on a flat to rolling course will do very well against small riders with greater w/kg.. Horses for Courses, FTP is a number, numbers don't win races.

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    Quote Originally Posted by perryr
    Horses for courses! ...... numbers don't win races.
    well spoken as always, its also the "area under the curve" that is important and many people neglect to discuss. Someone may have a higher FTP but if they can't hold a high(er) power for more than an hour they won't do well in longer distance races. There is also absolute power as well and this is where some bigger (and have an greater absolute power output) riders have some advantage on flats and gentle inclines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    ... Someone may have a higher FTP but if they can't hold a high(er) power for more than an hour they won't do well in longer distance races...
    unless,,, they have a whole lot of matches in their match book!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    Would you believe me if I told you that a top 20 in elite at Sea Otter was done by a guy with a FTP of 4.8? Or that the mens elite podium at some Santa Ynez had guys with a FTP of under 5? Or that guys racing with JHK at world cups have FTPs just over 5?

    If someone is racing Cat 1 and they tell you they have an FTP of 5.0 they are either:
    a) a road racer
    b) in need of someone to properly calibrate their PM
    c) racing elite in the next race because they won by 5 minutes.
    Or d) a previous sport level rider that had huge untapped potential that has been on a strict ATP for 7 months.

    Sure I'd believe you, however I also know a month ago where I was with power and I could JUST hang on climbs with the lead group of cat 1s but could easily finish top 10. Since then I've had a 12% gain in interval power in 3 weeks. If anyone wants my data, I have no problem sharing my power files, I just wish I had a PM on my mtb. hmmm....

    Oh and I missed a national championship this weekend by 12.2 seconds. FML. I would have placed 20th in Pro.

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    or e.) they were REALLY overweight with exceptional cycling skills/history and they just dropped 80lbs.

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    Page 78 out of Lactate Threshold Training. Bart Brentjens is sited as having a power to weight ratio of 5.8 Watts/Kg at his HR deflection point, which is similar to FTP. The number was recorded in Jan 1998. He was 27 yrs old. Olympic champion in 1996.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by dontheclysdale
    or e.) they were REALLY overweight with exceptional cycling skills/history and they just dropped 80lbs.

    That still fall under c Because they aren't going to be racing Cat 1 for long.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    Sure I'd believe you, however I also know a month ago where I was with power and I could JUST hang on climbs with the lead group of cat 1s but could easily finish top 10. Since then I've had a 12% gain in interval power in 3 weeks. If anyone wants my data, I have no problem sharing my power files, I just wish I had a PM on my mtb. hmmm....

    If that is the case then you probably aren't producing the same power output on your MTB. Honestly, a guy your size at 5.0 watts/kg should be a decent elite rider.

    At the last race you were about the same speed as Heather. I know the power output of elite women's cycling pretty well and generally a 140lb guy with an FTP of 5.0 watts/kg will beat the best elite women by seven or eight minutes in a 2hr race. A bigger guy with an FTP of 5.0 watts/kg will have a much larger gap.

    I am sure if you had a MTB PM you would find that your power numbers aren't nearly as high. That isn't bad thing, just means you need to work on your MTB efficiency.

    BTW we are about the same speed, you are the same percentage off JHK that I am off of Kabush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    I missed a national championship this weekend by 12.2 seconds. FML. I would have placed 20th in Pro.
    Awesome!! You've worked your butt off and certainly earned the result.. savor it, thats an awesome achievement

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by perryr
    Awesome!! You've worked your butt off and certainly earned the result.. savor it, thats an awesome achievement

    Yes, that is a wicked result BTW. I am sorry for recognizing that earlier.

    I seriously doubt that I will be able to match it our nationals next weekend.

    Are you racing XC nationals?

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