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  1. #1
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    Power Data for Pro/Elite Cat1 Endurance Males

    Anyone have data on these guys road preferably but mountain would be ok too.

    Are they all doing 4 watts/kg aerobically for multi hour rides?

    I saw Jeremiah Bishops data from the mohican 100 - 2009 and he was at like 3.3 watts/kg IIRC but I'm looking for something more than 1 file.

    just re-found his data from saris.com:
    Ride stats:

    Distance 102.35 miles
    Duration 7:06:46
    Work 5759 kJ
    Avg Speed 14.38 mph
    Avg Cadence 65 rpm
    Avg HR 150 bpm
    Avg Power 225 watts (3.28 watts/kg)
    Max Power 1502 watts (21.93 watts/kg)

    Peak power:

    Power Watts/kg
    5 sec 736 10.74
    30 sec 552 8.05
    1 min 517 7.55
    5 min 359 5.24
    10 min 335 4.9
    30 min 293 4.28
    60 min 278 4.06
    120 min 262 3.82
    Last edited by fsrftc; 06-22-2010 at 01:52 PM.

  2. #2
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    There are a few on the SRM web page including this data for Greg Henderson from the 2009 Paris - Roubaix

    eg: http://www.srm.de/index.php?option=c...id=163&lang=us

    "The overall average for the race: 286 watts (3.9 W/kg), cadence 76 rpm, 38.7 km/h.

    His maximum power values for this race are:

    •1 second 1,226 Watt (16.6 W/kg)
    •1 minute: 585 Watts (7.9 W/kg)
    •4 minutes: 446 Watts (6.0 W/kg)
    •20 minutes: 371 Watts (5.0 W/kg)

    For the first two hours of the race, he rode with an average of 330 Watts (4.5 W/kg) and an average speed of 45 km/h, which must have been superhard. His smoothed power curve went down constantly, and in the last hour the average power was just 240 Watts (3.2 W/kg). But after nearly 6.5 hours of racing - most of the time in a breakaway - and about 6.400 calories burned, this is not surprising."
    SRM.de

  3. #3
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    MTB race power files tend to be pretty low.

    Last year at Test of Metal (a 3hr MTB race) Catharine averaged 4.1 watts/kg, significantly below threshold.

    I would say all the top guys and girls can fairly easily average in excess of 4/watts per kg for extended periods of time on the road.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc

    I saw Jeremiah Bishops data from the mohican 100 - 2009 and he was at like 3.3 watts/kg IIRC but I'm looking for something more than 1 file.

    just re-found his data from saris.com:
    Ride stats:

    Distance 102.35 miles
    Duration 7:06:46
    Work 5759 kJ
    Avg Speed 14.38 mph
    Avg Cadence 65 rpm
    Avg HR 150 bpm
    Avg Power 225 watts (3.28 watts/kg)
    Max Power 1502 watts (21.93 watts/kg)

    Peak power:

    Power Watts/kg
    5 sec 736 10.74
    30 sec 552 8.05
    1 min 517 7.55
    5 min 359 5.24
    10 min 335 4.9
    30 min 293 4.28
    60 min 278 4.06
    120 min 262 3.82
    Wow...that is actually surprisingly low, IMO.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    MTB race power files tend to be pretty low.

    Last year at Test of Metal (a 3hr MTB race) Catharine averaged 4.1 watts/kg, significantly below threshold.

    I would say all the top guys and girls can fairly easily average in excess of 4/watts per kg for extended periods of time on the road.
    what would you consider extended 3, 4+ hours? I would assume this is below race pace HR averages as well, correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by XCFred
    Wow...that is actually surprisingly low, IMO.

    from the limited data I've seen most of the top finishers for 100 milers are in the 3.2-3.4 range, but remember they've riden for 6-8 and sometimes 9 hours at this pace. Also this isn't a normalized file, my guess is after normalization it would be near 4 watts.

  7. #7
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    Just went to a male, 45ish age, Cat 1 roadie's files (multi-time amateur road race state champion--in a flat state). I have a few dozen of his files for long, flat 3-4 hr group rides over a multi-year span--most of them hard/spirited group rides on the road with pros and other cat 1s. His best 4 hour maximal average power for those rides is 3.33 watts/kg. Using normalized power it jumps to 3.52. His threshold is more like 4.3
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    from the limited data I've seen most of the top finishers for 100 milers are in the 3.2-3.4 range, but remember they've riden for 6-8 and sometimes 9 hours at this pace. Also this isn't a normalized file, my guess is after normalization it would be near 4 watts.
    NP would be quite a bit higher I'd imagine. Keep in mind for avg's also if there's a lot of singletrack or even wide open fire road descents, it also means a lot of time not pedaling, so all those 0w seconds add up.

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    thanks for the link, 4.5 watts for 2 hours is pretty impressive. IIRC Landis regularly did 4.3+watt/kg rides for 5-6 hours in training.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    Anyone have data on these guys road preferably but mountain would be ok too.

    Are they all doing 4 watts/kg aerobically for multi hour rides?

    I saw Jeremiah Bishops data from the mohican 100 - 2009 and he was at like 3.3 watts/kg IIRC but I'm looking for something more than 1 file.

    just re-found his data from saris.com:
    Ride stats:

    Distance 102.35 miles
    Duration 7:06:46
    Work 5759 kJ
    Avg Speed 14.38 mph
    Avg Cadence 65 rpm
    Avg HR 150 bpm
    Avg Power 225 watts (3.28 watts/kg)
    Max Power 1502 watts (21.93 watts/kg)

    Peak power:

    Power Watts/kg
    5 sec 736 10.74
    30 sec 552 8.05
    1 min 517 7.55
    5 min 359 5.24
    10 min 335 4.9
    30 min 293 4.28
    60 min 278 4.06
    120 min 262 3.82
    Cadence average surprised me, except when I realized that it probably includes zeros.
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    Quote Originally Posted by millennium
    Just went to a male, 45ish age, Cat 1 roadie's files (multi-time amateur road race state champion--in a flat state). I have a few dozen of his files for long, flat 3-4 hr group rides over a multi-year span--most of them hard/spirited group rides on the road with pros and other cat 1s. His best 4 hour maximal average power for those rides is 3.33 watts/kg. Using normalized power it jumps to 3.52. His threshold is more like 4.3

    What state? In Colorado those would be Cat 2/3 at best.

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    Average power only tells part of the story. There may be a ton of coasting and soft pedaling. But how much time is spent at threshold or above? a 6hr ride with 2hrs at 400 and 4hrs at 175 is going to average 250.. but that would certainly be a strong performance! Normalized Power on the other hand would be 310watts, and more representative of what the athlete is capable of had the effort been steady paced.

    Normalized Power would be a much better indicator. If you want the biggest average power number possible, ride ISO power, keep it steady at high Tempo for 3-4hrs and you'll see what you can do for 3-4hrs. In a race, that same athlete would probably see average power that is 20%+ lower, but Normalized power that is probably better (if they were motivated and digging deep) than what they can do in a 3-4hr High Tempo pace.

    The repeated efforts above threshold have a huge cost that is not represented by average power. Normalized Power does a much better job.

    But for 3-4hrs I bet the best Cat 1's are over 4watt/kg NP, and if they had to (but who'd want to?), would probably be able to do the same as average power on a steady 3-4hr High Tempo pace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by perryr
    Average power only tells part of the story. There may be a ton of coasting and soft pedaling. But how much time is spent at threshold or above? a 6hr ride with 2hrs at 400 and 4hrs at 175 is going to average 250.. but that would certainly be a strong performance! Normalized Power on the other hand would be 310watts, and more representative of what the athlete is capable of had the effort been steady paced.

    Normalized Power would be a much better indicator. If you want the biggest average power number possible, ride ISO power, keep it steady at high Tempo for 3-4hrs and you'll see what you can do for 3-4hrs. In a race, that same athlete would probably see average power that is 20%+ lower, but Normalized power that is probably better (if they were motivated and digging deep) than what they can do in a 3-4hr High Tempo pace.

    The repeated efforts above threshold have a huge cost that is not represented by average power. Normalized Power does a much better job.

    But for 3-4hrs I bet the best Cat 1's are over 4watt/kg NP, and if they had to (but who'd want to?), would probably be able to do the same as average power on a steady 3-4hr High Tempo pace.
    I don't get above threshold HR much if at all in endurance races (3.5+ hours), maybe i'm doing it wrong?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    What state? In Colorado those would be Cat 2/3 at best.
    That's why I said it was a flat state (Florida)--power to weight not as important in flat areas. He's a biggish guy (at least for serious cyclists)--his actual power avg for 4 hours was 270, and this threshold about 350. Also, remember his age--45ish. Finally, this guy has been racing for many, many years--his tactics are second to none.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    I don't get above threshold HR much if at all in endurance races (3.5+ hours), maybe i'm doing it wrong?
    I have some data files from long rides, and a few long races. It really depends on the course, but as far as power output, if its a climbing course, you will see huge amounts of time spent at Threshold and above.. with more than one would think at Anaerobic Capacity power levels. Granted the efforts are short, but when you tally em all up, its a ton of time at very high power outputs. With long descents, great fitness and recovery between efforts, athletes can accumulate scary amounts of time at high power levels (threshold and above).

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    Quote Originally Posted by perryr
    I have some data files from long rides, and a few long races. It really depends on the course, but as far as power output, if its a climbing course, you will see huge amounts of time spent at Threshold and above.. with more than one would think at Anaerobic Capacity power levels. Granted the efforts are short, but when you tally em all up, its a ton of time at very high power outputs. With long descents, great fitness and recovery between efforts, athletes can accumulate scary amounts of time at high power levels (threshold and above).
    oh i can see that but my HR never reaches LT levels, i should have specified HR not power levels.

  17. #17
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    Looking at another file I have 250 watts for a 20 minute effort from a 60kg cyclist.

    This was a maximal off road effort. The guy who did is very fast, races world cups, and has an FTP of 330 watts.

  18. #18
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    I have a bunch of files from solo road rides in rolling/moderately hilly terrain with NP of 4 W/kg and up. 69-70kg, NP 285 W +/- for a 4-4.5 hours. That's enough to make me feel like I've done some good work, but ending the ride short of totally shelled. I'm in that good Cat 1/bad pro zone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XCFred
    Wow...that is actually surprisingly low, IMO.

    low for a 7 hour race?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bioteknik
    low for a 7 hour race?
    I guess probably not that low for a super long MTB race. I've similar avg power numbers for a 5-7 hour road rides, but road riding is a different beast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 42t
    I have a bunch of files from solo road rides in rolling/moderately hilly terrain with NP of 4 W/kg and up. 69-70kg, NP 285 W +/- for a 4-4.5 hours. That's enough to make me feel like I've done some good work, but ending the ride short of totally shelled. I'm in that good Cat 1/bad pro zone.
    my whole point of the thread is to figure out where I'm at compared to the cat1/pro level. And apparently I'm "there" according to my data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    Looking at another file I have 250 watts for a 20 minute effort from a 60kg cyclist.

    This was a maximal off road effort. The guy who did is very fast, races world cups, and has an FTP of 330 watts.
    looks like a typo...did you mean 350 watts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    looks like a typo...did you mean 350 watts?

    No I meant 330 watts. 330 watts propels a 134lb rider pretty quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    No I meant 330 watts. 330 watts propels a 134lb rider pretty quickly.
    no for the 20 minute 250/60 is only 4.1667 which isn't "big" per se

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    no for the 20 minute 250/60 is only 4.1667 which isn't "big" per se
    That was power for a MTB 20 minute effort. The same time duration on the road 350 would be his number (6 watts/kg). Which is good enough for 100th at a world cup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    No I meant 330 watts. 330 watts propels a 134lb rider pretty quickly.
    For this rider, is the 330 watts for 20 min a normalized power or average power? Typically on a trail I find my normalized power is about 10% to 30% above the average power due to VI.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2UTH DR
    For this rider, is the 330 watts for 20 min a normalized power or average power? Typically on a trail I find my normalized power is about 10% to 30% above the average power due to VI.

    It is average power for 1hr effort on the road.

    Trail numbers are a fair bit lower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    from the limited data I've seen most of the top finishers for 100 milers are in the 3.2-3.4 range, but remember they've riden for 6-8 and sometimes 9 hours at this pace. Also this isn't a normalized file, my guess is after normalization it would be near 4 watts.
    I was reading "Racing and Training With A Powermeter" this weekend and they refer to Jeremiah's ride. NP was 274, and his weight is 68-69kg, so ya, right around 4w/kg for the duration. His FTP is 390.. thats gotta get it done!

    With that kinda FTP, his 3-4hr NP is probably getting close to 5w/kg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by perryr
    I was reading "Racing and Training With A Powermeter" this weekend and they refer to Jeremiah's ride. NP was 274, and his weight is 68-69kg, so ya, right around 4w/kg for the duration. His FTP is 390.. thats gotta get it done!

    With that kinda FTP, his 3-4hr NP is probably getting close to 5w/kg.
    Just curious, what's your source for his 390 watt FTP?
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    Quote Originally Posted by XCFred
    Just curious, what's your source for his 390 watt FTP?
    In the book where they refer to Jeremiah's ride, they state his "FTP" as 390w. They then go on to describe how he paced the event relative to his FTP, and how knowing his FTP allowed him to stay within power ranges to help conserve glycogen.

    The new book has some cool added sections on pacing and fatigue profiling. They also have quite a menu of new workouts, along with some good case studies. Plenty of redundancy with Ver 1, but still worth the read for the extra stuff.

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    I thought the 2nd edition of the book was great... ...and that the 390 FTP number for Bishop was impressive and revealing. I guess there is a reason I'm a working stiff and not riding for Cannondale! (Although I'd say I'm not too bad for a 41 year old washed up married man with a wife, 2 kids, and 3 employees to look after in addition to finding time to train.)

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    There's a neat little calculator on analyticcycling.com. It's not perfect, but it gives you a good idea. I took some stats I found on Lance Armstrong from the 2004 Alp Dhuez TT and punched them in. 15,500m in 2381s with 1160m of ascent. I assumed LA at 70kg plus the weight of his bike at 7kg. It spit out an average of 444 watts. 6.35 watts/kg. I'd say if you're close to 6 watts/kg at FTP, that's pro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simonster
    . I assumed LA at 70kg plus the weight of his bike at 7kg. It spit out an average of 444 watts. 6.35 watts/kg. I'd say if you're close to 6 watts/kg at FTP, that's pro.
    You forgot to specify time - i.e., a 6 w/kg FTP.

    I can do 6 w/kg, but only for about 3 minutes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simonster
    There's a neat little calculator on analyticcycling.com. It's not perfect, but it gives you a good idea. I took some stats I found on Lance Armstrong from the 2004 Alp Dhuez TT and punched them in. 15,500m in 2381s with 1160m of ascent. I assumed LA at 70kg plus the weight of his bike at 7kg. It spit out an average of 444 watts. 6.35 watts/kg. I'd say if you're close to 6 watts/kg at FTP, that's pro.
    6 watts/kg at FTP is Absalon territory. I would say anybody with reasonable technical skills and a FTP of 5+ is a decent regional Pro.

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    LMN, what FTP numbers do you see for your Cat 1 mtb racers?

    (I don't have pro aspirations--I'm 41 and am relatively new to cycling--but I'm hoping in a few years to be competitive in the 40+ Cat 1 races).

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    6 watts/kg at FTP is Absalon territory. I would say anybody with reasonable technical skills and a FTP of 5+ is a decent regional Pro.

    ....Armstrong territory, also. Just read this before finding this thread...6.7 w/kg....yikes.

    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/46...best-form.aspx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatorback
    LMN, what FTP numbers do you see for your Cat 1 mtb racers?

    (I don't have pro aspirations--I'm 41 and am relatively new to cycling--but I'm hoping in a few years to be competitive in the 40+ Cat 1 races).

    I actually don't have many data points for riders at that level. I guess that 4.0 to 4.5 for 1hr is a decent Cat 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatorback
    LMN, what FTP numbers do you see for your Cat 1 mtb racers?

    (I don't have pro aspirations--I'm 41 and am relatively new to cycling--but I'm hoping in a few years to be competitive in the 40+ Cat 1 races).
    From the data I'm seeing It's relative to your locale. A podium Cat 1 MTBer in Colorado (and likely California as well) is pushing 4.75-5watts/kg then depending on technical skills it can be leveled out on the single track. Top 10 is likely at 4.5ish for a minimum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    From the data I'm seeing It's relative to your locale. A podium Cat 1 MTBer in Colorado (and likely California as well) is pushing 4.75-5watts/kg then depending on technical skills it can be leveled out on the single track. Top 10 is likely at 4.5ish for a minimum.
    I live and race in Florida and would guess that the riders who podium in Cat 1 here are in fact in the upper 4s and 5 watts/kg range. I'm above 4.0 watts/kg and have some work to do before getting on the podium in a Cat 1 race is a realistic goal. There are some seriously fast riders out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    From the data I'm seeing It's relative to your locale. A podium Cat 1 MTBer in Colorado (and likely California as well) is pushing 4.75-5watts/kg then depending on technical skills it can be leveled out on the single track. Top 10 is likely at 4.5ish for a minimum.

    Would you believe me if I told you that a top 20 in elite at Sea Otter was done by a guy with a FTP of 4.8? Or that the mens elite podium at some Santa Ynez had guys with a FTP of under 5? Or that guys racing with JHK at world cups have FTPs just over 5?

    If someone is racing Cat 1 and they tell you they have an FTP of 5.0 they are either:
    a) a road racer
    b) in need of someone to properly calibrate their PM
    c) racing elite in the next race because they won by 5 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    Would you believe me if I told you that a top 20 in elite at Sea Otter was done by a guy with a FTP of 4.8?
    Horses for courses!

    I've had some great rides at National Level events.. short track, XC, TT, fastest overall times, a good variety of courses and distance from 4min TT's to 3hr XC's. I also have a few thousand hours of power files from both training and racing, and I've never done an hour at 4.75. In fact, I've never done an hour (avg power) thats very close to 4.75.

    Most people "calculate" their FTP, rather than get the number from an hour. This in itself creates a margin of error.

    The numbers people put out in training, on the road, may not be what they can do on the course. Or, people may be able to do more on the course than they can do in training.

    Most "calculated" FTP is 95% of a 20min TT. What % of that 20min can they do for 2-3hr when normalized? What is their fatigue Profile, this alone can range from 2-10% or more, and drop like a stone past 1hr. Some athletes handle repeated efforts significantly better than others, which can easily make up for a 10% difference in FTP.

    FTP is good for setting training zones, but beyond that it is not going to determine the outcome of a race. FTP varies broadly from athlete to athlete, and it really comes down to who has the best legs and is best suited for the course. For example, larger riders on a flat to rolling course will do very well against small riders with greater w/kg.. Horses for Courses, FTP is a number, numbers don't win races.

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    Quote Originally Posted by perryr
    Horses for courses! ...... numbers don't win races.
    well spoken as always, its also the "area under the curve" that is important and many people neglect to discuss. Someone may have a higher FTP but if they can't hold a high(er) power for more than an hour they won't do well in longer distance races. There is also absolute power as well and this is where some bigger (and have an greater absolute power output) riders have some advantage on flats and gentle inclines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    ... Someone may have a higher FTP but if they can't hold a high(er) power for more than an hour they won't do well in longer distance races...
    unless,,, they have a whole lot of matches in their match book!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    Would you believe me if I told you that a top 20 in elite at Sea Otter was done by a guy with a FTP of 4.8? Or that the mens elite podium at some Santa Ynez had guys with a FTP of under 5? Or that guys racing with JHK at world cups have FTPs just over 5?

    If someone is racing Cat 1 and they tell you they have an FTP of 5.0 they are either:
    a) a road racer
    b) in need of someone to properly calibrate their PM
    c) racing elite in the next race because they won by 5 minutes.
    Or d) a previous sport level rider that had huge untapped potential that has been on a strict ATP for 7 months.

    Sure I'd believe you, however I also know a month ago where I was with power and I could JUST hang on climbs with the lead group of cat 1s but could easily finish top 10. Since then I've had a 12% gain in interval power in 3 weeks. If anyone wants my data, I have no problem sharing my power files, I just wish I had a PM on my mtb. hmmm....

    Oh and I missed a national championship this weekend by 12.2 seconds. FML. I would have placed 20th in Pro.

  45. #45
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    or e.) they were REALLY overweight with exceptional cycling skills/history and they just dropped 80lbs.

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    Page 78 out of Lactate Threshold Training. Bart Brentjens is sited as having a power to weight ratio of 5.8 Watts/Kg at his HR deflection point, which is similar to FTP. The number was recorded in Jan 1998. He was 27 yrs old. Olympic champion in 1996.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by dontheclysdale
    or e.) they were REALLY overweight with exceptional cycling skills/history and they just dropped 80lbs.

    That still fall under c Because they aren't going to be racing Cat 1 for long.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    Sure I'd believe you, however I also know a month ago where I was with power and I could JUST hang on climbs with the lead group of cat 1s but could easily finish top 10. Since then I've had a 12% gain in interval power in 3 weeks. If anyone wants my data, I have no problem sharing my power files, I just wish I had a PM on my mtb. hmmm....

    If that is the case then you probably aren't producing the same power output on your MTB. Honestly, a guy your size at 5.0 watts/kg should be a decent elite rider.

    At the last race you were about the same speed as Heather. I know the power output of elite women's cycling pretty well and generally a 140lb guy with an FTP of 5.0 watts/kg will beat the best elite women by seven or eight minutes in a 2hr race. A bigger guy with an FTP of 5.0 watts/kg will have a much larger gap.

    I am sure if you had a MTB PM you would find that your power numbers aren't nearly as high. That isn't bad thing, just means you need to work on your MTB efficiency.

    BTW we are about the same speed, you are the same percentage off JHK that I am off of Kabush.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    I missed a national championship this weekend by 12.2 seconds. FML. I would have placed 20th in Pro.
    Awesome!! You've worked your butt off and certainly earned the result.. savor it, thats an awesome achievement

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by perryr
    Awesome!! You've worked your butt off and certainly earned the result.. savor it, thats an awesome achievement

    Yes, that is a wicked result BTW. I am sorry for recognizing that earlier.

    I seriously doubt that I will be able to match it our nationals next weekend.

    Are you racing XC nationals?

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    If that is the case then you probably aren't producing the same power output on your MTB. Honestly, a guy your size at 5.0 watts/kg should be a decent elite rider.

    At the last race you were about the same speed as Heather. I know the power output of elite women's cycling pretty well and generally a 140lb guy with an FTP of 5.0 watts/kg will beat the best elite women by seven or eight minutes in a 2hr race. A bigger guy with an FTP of 5.0 watts/kg will have a much larger gap.

    I am sure if you had a MTB PM you would find that your power numbers aren't nearly as high. That isn't bad thing, just means you need to work on your MTB efficiency.

    BTW we are about the same speed, you are the same percentage off JHK that I am off of Kabush.

    I'm on the hunt for a used powertap hub, I really want to see my data.

    I'm estimating my FTP in the 4.7-4.8 watt/kg range given my data (repeated 8 minute intervals deep into the 400 watt range), but I can hold north of 4 watts/kg for over 4 hours without going into zone 4, I'm also a pretty fast downhiller and was able to close many gaps on the descents. I also was gapping people (and quickly gaining on the leader) as the race went on, I went from 5th to 2nd in less than a 1/2 lap. I think i need to try my hand at a 100 miler.

    What I couldn't believe is that the 1st lap was a legitimate XC race pace (my hr was 2-3 beats under my LT). Had 2 small mistakes not happened I may have won, but hindsight is 20/20 and every race is a learning experience. There's always next year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by perryr
    Awesome!! You've worked your butt off and certainly earned the result.. savor it, thats an awesome achievement

    thanks Perry, its a mixed bag of emotions to be SO close to winning. I am very proud of what I accomplished, especially considering I just a podium sport rider last year and now I'm fighting for the win hard Cat1 races. I've got plenty of time yet this season and can springboard off of this year for next to be even faster for next year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    Yes, that is a wicked result BTW. I am sorry for recognizing that earlier.

    I seriously doubt that I will be able to match it our nationals next weekend.

    Are you racing XC nationals?
    I'm qualifed for it, I'm debating between that and the Breckenridge 68/100. I am definitely more of an endurance racer this season, however there is a strong pull for a 2nd attempt to get a national championship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    thanks Perry, its a mixed bag of emotions to be SO close to winning.
    Get use to it! Winning at a huge event not only requires a good peak in fitness, but also good luck.. all the planets need to line up. You may have had the fitness to win, you may have been the strongest rider, but someone else may have had a better day or better luck. When its close there are always so many woulda, shoulda, coulda's, but what you really have to do is look at what you did achieve, and I bet it exceeded expectations and should be savored as an incredible performance that was the result of a ton of focused hard work. You won in many ways, maybe not the Jersey, but you proved to yourself and others exactly what your capable of.

    Soak it in, savor it, and relax knowing you have what it takes, and you'll also have years of opportunities to bang heads with the best. In the mean time, reflect and absorb the good vibes while cozying up to some real good food!

  55. #55
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    Yup

    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    Would you believe me if I told you that a top 20 in elite at Sea Otter was done by a guy with a FTP of 4.8? Or that the mens elite podium at some Santa Ynez had guys with a FTP of under 5? Or that guys racing with JHK at world cups have FTPs just over 5?

    If someone is racing Cat 1 and they tell you they have an FTP of 5.0 they are either:
    a) a road racer
    b) in need of someone to properly calibrate their PM
    c) racing elite in the next race because they won by 5 minutes.

    I'm with you. I have only done a calculated FTP and end up in the low 4's. I can top 10 in Expert and CAT1 in the mighty mountains of CO. (although it's been a while since I've done a short race). Maybe, I'm very good at high altitude (I work at 10,500'), maybe it's my short bursts of power being a fast-twitcher... who knows.

    For me, power is great at comparing myself to myself, but irrelevant when comparing to others. I know when I'm in good shape relative to the past based upon my output on familiar training rides.
    Free will is an illusion, people will always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

  56. #56
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    As the Tour de France is on there is some power data from the stages being posted on the SRM.de site.

    These are the daily stats for Chris Horner from Team Radioshack.

    http://blog.oregonlive.com/horner/20...horners_t.html

    https://www.srm.de/index.php?option=...id=260&lang=en
    Last edited by WR304; 07-21-2010 at 11:17 AM.

  57. #57
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    This article discussing power outputs from the Tour de France is quite interesting.

    http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010...ontent=Twitter

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304
    This article discussing power outputs from the Tour de France is quite interesting.

    http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010...ontent=Twitter

    i could tell you watching the tour that his interpretation of the data is somewhat correct, look at lance! someone deflated his hot air balloon. (also look at someone like wiggo!)

    there is a lot of pressure on them to reduce their doping and they are easing off. i don't think they have stopped, but they have probably reduced. micro dosing doesn't seem to get the same results for them as bolus doping.

    i was having a discussion with a friend today after he received an insider email (we live in the land of landis) and there is a great deal of pressure and discussion surrounding all of these doping issues. the whole system is corrupt and there are threats flying in cyberspace between the major players as i type. (btw... i would have dismissed such things as conjecture before actually seeing the email)

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    I just started using a borrowed power meter on my road bike. I intend to buy one this winter, hopefully, but thought it would be helpful to get some data mid-season to serve as baseline data for power work in the winter. I've had it for only a few rides but the data is really interesting to dive into.
    This thread has given me good context, so just thought I'd share my data as a way of encouraging others to continue sharing. I race Cat 1 mtb and Cat 3 on the road. I know I'm a crappy TT'er but seem to have a decent sprint.

    I did a 10mi TT, part of local stage race, averaged 308 watts at 73kg for 25 minutes (4.2w/kg), with HR right at LT. I was doing the TT eddy merckz style, no aero equipment.

    Further group rides and HR z5 level efforts of 5 & 10 mins apiece seem to indicate my FTP is somewhere right around 300, probably 290 for a real 1 hr effort.

    Recent fast group ride (that I'm was not fresh for) with town sign sprints have revealed the following best averages:
    10 mins = 297
    5 mins = 339
    1 min = 489
    30 secs = 743
    20 secs = 1001
    10 secs = 1104
    2 secs = 1237

    Someone said good cat 1 is about 4 w/kg FTP.... well it took me 5:18 to complete Firecracker 50, bummer :-( but maybe thats bc I live at sea level.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    Max Power 1502 watts (21.93 watts/kg)
    Oh go away, that's just showing off :P
    Quote Originally Posted by tom2304
    Yep farkin.net is mostly immature kids asking how to put dual crown forks on hardtails and such.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrftc
    Oh and I missed a national championship this weekend by 12.2 seconds. FML. I would have placed 20th in Pro.

    Sorry for the off topic, but I have to correct you... you missed an ALTITUDE championship this weekend by 12.2 seconds. Just a small detail.

  62. #62
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    You can download the actual .wko Power files for Chris Anker Sorensen's 2010 Tour De France here:

    http://home.trainingpeaks.com/races/...saxo-bank.aspx

    They open with WKO+ 3.0 and let you look at the entire Tour De France's stages in detail. For example you can check the actual speeds that he reached descending the mountains, the amount of time spent freewheeling etc.

    You could also use them for a direct comparison of the speed and power output to your own files.

    Pictured below: Chris Anker Sorensen Tour De France 2010 mountain stage (two minute smoothing on data)

    Edit: See Post #74 for the correct power data graph. The peak power figures below includes final 12 minutes of the file where the SRM power meter recording had gone wrong.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Power Data for Pro/Elite Cat1 Endurance Males-chris_anker_sorensen_tdf2010.jpg  

    Last edited by WR304; 11-14-2010 at 10:58 AM.

  63. #63
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    608w for 10 mins in the middle of a 6hr ride is just impressive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nathanbal
    608w for 10 mins in the middle of a 6hr ride is just impressive.
    What are you referring to? I don't think that type of power for 10 mins is doable by anyone. Let alone during a 6hr ride

  65. #65
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    have a look at the file posted by WR304 ya goose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nathanbal
    608w for 10 mins in the middle of a 6hr ride is just impressive.
    That would be, not sure its possible.. by any pro cyclist from any era.

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    I think there's a mistake with that.

    Look at the graph, its smoothed to 2 mins and he rarely even goes over 400, no where close to 600, let alone for 10 minutes

  68. #68
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    Cancellara supposedly averages 500w for an hour in a time trial. Why wouldnt a pro be able to average this type of power for 10 mins?

    I'm not a WKO+ expert so if something has been done with the data and its wrong, fair enough.

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    lets look at some numbers.

    Cancellara: 500 W @ 80 kg = 6.25 w/kg for an hour
    Chris: 608 W @ 64 kg = 9.5 w/kg

    9.5 is wayyyy off the charts for 5 min max for anyone, even pros, let alone for 10 mins in a 6 hour stage of the tour

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by nathanbal
    Cancellara supposedly averages 500w for an hour in a time trial. Why wouldnt a pro be able to average this type of power for 10 mins?
    Using Andy Coggans power profile chart it would require someone the size of Cancellera performing at 7.5w/kg to hold 608 watts for just 5-min. 7.5w/kg is world class, best in the world 5min power at any weight. Now to extend this to 10min.. that would be off the charts.

    If you look at the avg HR for the 10min @ 608w, it was 134bpm.

    No doubt though, Chris rode an amazing TDF.

  71. #71
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    Armstrong supposedly did 6.8w/kg for 40ish mins on Alp d'Huez in the early 2000's?!? Whilst that was likely a highly doped effort, I doubt a 5 min effort at 7.5w/kg would have been a stretch.

    But given Chris is only 64kg it looks a lot less likely. And agree - the actual power curves never go above 600w so obviously not correct.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by nathanbal
    Armstrong supposedly did 6.8w/kg for 40ish mins on Alp d'Huez in the early 2000's?!? Whilst that was likely a highly doped effort, I doubt a 5 min effort at 7.5w/kg would have been a stretch..
    7.5w/kg for 5min has been done.. at least its on the charts.

    10min power will fall pretty squarly inbetween 5min and 1hr power. Depends on the athlete, as TT'er/Grand tour types might have a 5min 10% greater than 1hr, while a pursuiter might have a 5min 20% greater than 1hr pwr. I think world class MTB'ers have a strong 5min relative to 1hr pwr.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by perryr
    7.5w/kg for 5min has been done.. at least its on the charts.

    10min power will fall pretty squarly inbetween 5min and 1hr power. Depends on the athlete, as TT'er/Grand tour types might have a 5min 10% greater than 1hr, while a pursuiter might have a 5min 20% greater than 1hr pwr. I think world class MTB'ers have a strong 5min relative to 1hr pwr.
    My 5min power is significantly different to my 1hr power... like 40% different (440w v 320w). What am I doing wrong??!!

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgkicksbutt
    I think there's a mistake with that.

    Look at the graph, its smoothed to 2 mins and he rarely even goes over 400, no where close to 600, let alone for 10 minutes
    If you look at the WKO+ graph interval notes on the right hand side the last 12 minutes of that file was bad data. The 608w for 10 minutes was in that period of bad data. Here are Hunter Allen's comments about the power file for 20/07/2010:

    "Stage 16 - Tuesday, July 20 2010, Bagnères-de-Luchon - Pau, 196 km

    That is one HECK of a start to a Tour stage. Gotta be a new record in terms of effort. 31 minutes at 6w/kg! That is unreal! I heard that most of the riders were warming up before the start, but that start EQUALS Chris hardest effort of the Tour so far! I can't get over that. Wow, what an incredible start. I am sure that there were many, many riders out of the back right from the start today and heard that at one point the 'peloton' was only 14 riders at the front.... There are only about 15 riders that are holding the wheel of Chris on the climbs, so I know that sounds about right!

    Thankfully, the Col d' Aspin was a more sane 5.5 w/kg for 35 minutes and the pace slowed from there with the hour long Tourmalet climb at 4.7 w/kg

    It's hard to tell where Chris was dropped from the leading peloton of 49 riders, but I suspect it was pretty early on, on the Col D' Aspin. If you notice the last 8 minutes of the Col d' Aspin, Chris' power really drops off down to 335-340 watts and I would guess this is when he got dropped and then brought the effort down. On the Tourmalet, he really scales back his effort in an attempt to conserve energy, which would also point to the fact that he was no longer in the front group of riders. I am not surprised as he put in a huge, huge effort yesterday for Andy Schleck, so would expect him to be hurting today.

    The rest of the stage was relatively uneventful for Chris and he rode in his group of riders to the finish. Unfortunately, something happened to his SRM power meter in the last 12 minutes of the race and the data is not accurate. Up to this point, Chris had scored 337 TSS points, so maybe add on 5 more TSS for the last 12 minutes for a total of 342 for the day, which is definitely a new record fo this years Tour. He climbed over 13800 feet in today's stage, which is quite remarkable itself in the 5 hour 50 minute stage. Normalized power of 297 watts for the stage is 4.6 watts per kg for the stage, so similar to previous stages"
    Hunter Allen

    http://home.trainingpeaks.com/races/.../stage-16.aspx

    The reason that it doesn't appear on the graph is that I've only highlighted the first interval which is the Tour stage excluding the bad data at the end.

    I've cut and pasted the good data from the file into a new workout. Without the bad data this hopefully gives more accurate power numbers for the stage. The peak 10 minute power for 20/07/2010 excluding the bad data was 412 watts.

    Here's a screenshot of the mountain stage from the day before Stage 15: Pamiers - Bagneres-de-Luchon 187.5km 19/07/2010. There aren't any notes saying that this was bad data. This was the day that Andy Schleck's chain came off and was when Chris Anker Sorensen did that long lead out up the climb first before Andy Schleck attacked.

    Pictured below: Chris Anker Sorensen Tour de France power data 19/07/2010 and 20/07/2010 (two minute smoothing and excluding bad data).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Power Data for Pro/Elite Cat1 Endurance Males-chris_anker_sorensen_tdf2010_19-07-2010.jpg  

    Power Data for Pro/Elite Cat1 Endurance Males-chris_anker_sorensen_tdf2010_20-07-2010exclbaddata.jpg  

    Last edited by WR304; 11-14-2010 at 10:49 AM.

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    I saw this on the Quarq blog. It's the power data from Ryan Trebon racing at Cross Vegas on 14 September 2011. The original file is downloadable from there in the Garmin .fit format. I imported it into WKO+ 3.0 for the pictures below.

    Quarq in Cyclo-cross! - Quarq Blog

    "Ryan Trebon can really put out the power in a CX race! In Cross Vegas, he averaged 409 watts normalized power for the entire 59 minute race, and if you know how many twists and turns are in the course, that tells you how hard he went out of the corners in order to get an average like that. When we dig deeper into the file, we see that Ryan spent a TON of time between 550-600 watts and essentially that is the power he was producing when he was pedaling during the race. If he was pedaling, then he was pedaling HARD. This kind of power is not what normal humans can do! It really is impressive and he is one of the best in the world because he can produce this power time and time again. Producing high wattages is always impressive, but to do it over and over and over in a hard CX race; repeatability is not a quality that every elite professional has, so when you see this in a power file it stands out in a big way." Hunter Allen

    Pictured below: Lap 3 of Ryan Trebon's power data from Cross Vegas 14 September 2011. This was his fastest lap at 17.3mph.

    Lap information for each of the four laps. Note how he got faster as the race went on.

    Ryan Trebon at 2011 Cross Vegas | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Power Data for Pro/Elite Cat1 Endurance Males-ryan_trebon_cross_vegas_2011_laps.jpg  

    Power Data for Pro/Elite Cat1 Endurance Males-ryan_trebon_cross_vegas_2011_lap3.jpg  

    Power Data for Pro/Elite Cat1 Endurance Males-ryan_trebon_cross_vegas_2011.jpg  


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    Waking a thread from the dead. I was at the last aid station 5 and helped with JB'S last feed. It was a rolling handoff of nutrition and hydration. Him and Tanguay and Jeff Schalk and others were all in a big group. No one stopped. Despite JB'S reported sub-threshold pace everyone in that group was shelled. I'd like to see the power profile of that last 8 miles to the finish. I'd really like to see Schalk's power on those power sucking rolling hills that he was relentlessly attacking.

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