View Poll Results: For a workout after a couple of hard days in the saddle do your legs feel:

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  • A) Fine, I'm a machine

    2 6.06%
  • B) a *little* fatigued but manageable throughout the

    20 60.61%
  • C) painfully fatigued at the start but fine after an hour of flogging them

    9 27.27%
  • D) painfully fatigued from start to finish

    2 6.06%
Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1
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    Poll for Leg Fatigue at the end of a multi-day training block

    I usually just ride every other day and even with a day off in between workouts I never go hard more than three workouts in a row because by the 3rd hard workout by legs feel pretty fatigued - no power, crazy burning when I try to push it & heart rate that just doesn't want to rise. So on those days I typically spin easy and go for distance. Prior to today I had 3 consecutive hard workouts and my legs were feeling fatigued so I would have ordinarily made today an easy day, but I wanted to take advantage of our local trail being in rideable condition since we have another winter storm coming tonight. My legs were on fire and I felt winded at least the first 40 minutes (just as I had expected), but at some point around an hour in I realized my legs no longer felt like lead and my respitory system was in synch - I didn't necessarily feel fresh but I felt ready to put in a solid effort for another couple hours. I've never tried to "push through the pain" like this before, so I'm wondering if this was just a fluke for me or normal reaction to a situation I've just never put myself in before.

    So, my question for you guys that do multi day training blocks, for a workout after a couple of hard days in the saddle do your legs feel:


    A) Fine, I'm a machine
    B) a *little* fatigued but manageable throughout the workout
    C) painfully fatigued at the start but fine after an hour of flogging them
    D) painfully fatigued from start to finish.
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  2. #2
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    Depends on the objectives of the prior 3 days. However, a longer warmup is necessary to loosen up. I typically do the 3 day blocks too. I think they are a good way to build up a decent amount of fatigue and then one day off or just an active recovery spin work well so I'm ready for the day 5 ride.
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  3. #3
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    I personally never train through fatigue. When in doubt, leave it out. I have been overtrained in the past and it makes life miserable. Depression, sleeplessness, loss of appetite, sore legs even after days of rest etc.

    I tend to prefer quality over quantity in regards to workouts.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepo5669 View Post
    I personally never train through fatigue. When in doubt, leave it out. I have been overtrained in the past and it makes life miserable. Depression, sleeplessness, loss of appetite, sore legs even after days of rest etc.

    I tend to prefer quality over quantity in regards to workouts.
    +1 Agree

  5. #5
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    Ali is right about the objective. What is the objective of your training? I am not a huge fan of a 1 day on 1 day off and repeat training schedule. Its too little riding to build the huge endurance needed for longer events. Its too short of a recovery period to recover from true power workouts.

    To answer your question what you are describing is completly normal. This is the reason why the riders in the Tour de France go out for a 2-3 hour ride on the rest day.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalfaraway View Post
    To answer your question what you are describing is completly normal. This is the reason why the riders in the Tour de France go out for a 2-3 hour ride on the rest day.
    I do not know how anyone can make a blanket statement about normal without knowing age, training history, workouts, etc.

    Not everyone is a 'pro' able to train everyday. Some are sport riders, with school, work, etc - being competitive with a couple of 'quality' rides a week.

  7. #7
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    Easy.

    Step 1. Ride, Race, and train mountain bikes and Mountain Bikers for 10 years.
    Step 2. Obtain a degree in Exercise Physiology.
    Step 3. Go ride with large groups the day after a race and listen to everyone talk about their sore tired legs for the first 45 min. Then everyone settles in and the pace becomes as fast as the race the day before.

    This question has nothing to do with being "pro able" (Which is a generalization that you made up in a post critical of my generalization). Also has nothing to do with sport riders training a couple days a week (Another generalization) or having to go to school and work (You guessed it blanket statement #3.)

    So simple answer is Yes tired flat feeling legs after a few days of hard riding are normal. Its also very common for that flat feeling to fade after 30-45 min in the saddle and feel ok.

    Complex answer is that Scott123 is right. Tired legs after a hard workout could be a serious medical condition. You should see a doctor whenever you experience the slightest discomfort. What is normal for a lot of people might be a serious issue for you.
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  8. #8
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    ...
    Last edited by scottz123; 03-14-2013 at 07:11 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalfaraway View Post
    Easy.

    Step 1. Ride, Race, and train mountain bikes and Mountain Bikers for 10 years.
    Step 2. Obtain a degree in Exercise Physiology.
    Step 3. Go ride with large groups the day after a race and listen to everyone talk about their sore tired legs for the first 45 min. Then everyone settles in and the pace becomes as fast as the race the day before.
    I take it this describes you Pedal?

    Admittedly I was getting away from OP's question.

    I used to be a short sprinter (high school and college - a lot of 'educated' people in college - but unfortunately with some, it did not make them a 'good coach')

    Sore legs to me meant I was fatigued (ran slower times) I would just dig myself into deeper fatigue training with tired legs. With cycling must be different, but with my present schedule I am still making gains

    My post
    Preparing for first MTB race of the season

    peace
    Last edited by scottz123; 03-15-2013 at 04:47 AM.

  10. #10
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    Cycling is a very different sport than running. Very little to no impact.

    I think the only time I've ever had muscle soreness from riding was the day after doing 15 x 1min hill intervals.

    Otherwise, it's a pretty smooth effort, and with proper recovery (food, rest, hydration, etc) pain is something I never experienced. And this is with 20hrs+ a week, on top of a 45hr work week. I worked up to 20hrs or more a week gradually, obviously. That included weekend races and at least one or two hard days, usually Tuesday and Wednesday, each week.

    Background: Crappy D1 800m/1500m runner before picking up road racing. Crappy cat1 roadie/"Pro" XC racer.

  11. #11
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    I voted 'B,' but depending on what I've been doing, once it starts to stack up, my fatigued-day riding tends to go like this:

    I feel less than brilliant at the start. After I've been riding for a bit, I get warmed up and feel great for a while. Sometimes, depending on how tired I am, I feel like I start to feel tired again earlier on a ride than I otherwise might.

    In the past, I've found that trying to fit more than three high-intensity workouts in a week doesn't work well for me. But I commute on my bike, so I sometimes have extended periods of riding seven days a week. That's mostly fine, although I do think it can make it harder to recover from a really big effort. So if I'm not commuting on my bike, I generally organize my schedule to work out about five days a week. I like to catch up on stuff around the house on Mondays and I often have other things going on on Fridays, so those are good days for me not to train. Unless I'm riding my bike to school.

    Starting a new J-O-B in a month, probably not one that it's feasible to do a part of the commute to by bike. So we'll see if I end up in that same five day schedule again. It seemed to work relatively well for me last summer.

    But, rambling aside - yes, if I ride hard one day, I have a little less snap in my legs when I start the next.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalfaraway View Post

    This is the reason why the riders in the Tour de France go out for a 2-3 hour ride on the rest day.

    Step 3. Go ride with large groups the day after a race and listen to everyone talk about their sore tired legs for the first 45 min. Then everyone settles in and the pace becomes as fast as the race the day before.
    Pedal

    I can understand how Tour de France riders can go on a 2-3 hour ride on their rest day. (With my logic the 'power demands' required are completely different than a MTB race and being able to eat and drink more freely - and from what I understand they still end up calorie deficient)

    What I am scratching my head on is after a MTB race (I am guessing a 1.5 to 2hr race) - Is that I am under the impression that your 'glycogen stores' are depleted even with proper refueling (recovery drinks, etc) for as long as 48 hrs. So the next day going at race pace is not really advisable.

    My last race of 2012 season, I was smoked, 1:48 long, avg HR 183, max for race 195, burned 1,460 calories @ body weight of 157. Highest HR I ever recorded 205. I guess what I am getting at in last paragraph is, do you think I could be 'refueled' enough to ride hard the next day?

    Thanks in advance

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottz123 View Post
    Pedal

    I can understand how Tour de France riders can go on a 2-3 hour ride on their rest day. (With my logic the 'power demands' required are completely different than a MTB race and being able to eat and drink more freely - and from what I understand they still end up calorie deficient)

    What I am scratching my head on is after a MTB race (I am guessing a 1.5 to 2hr race) - Is that I am under the impression that your 'glycogen stores' are depleted even with proper refueling (recovery drinks, etc) for as long as 48 hrs. So the next day going at race pace is not really advisable.

    My last race of 2012 season, I was smoked, 1:48 long, avg HR 183, max for race 195, burned 1,460 calories @ body weight of 157. Highest HR I ever recorded 205. I guess what I am getting at in last paragraph is, do you think I could be 'refueled' enough to ride hard the next day?

    Thanks in advance
    Last year I did a 4.5 hour mtb ride, followed it up the next day with a 1.5 hour 22 mile xc hammerfest group ride. I was really surprised that I was able to hammer at the front of the group with the leaders after 15-20 min of warming up. My legs didnt feel great, I felt slow accelerating, but, I still managed to do well. I guess you dont know until you try!

  14. #14
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    The Issue is not Fuel. Gylcogen replacement assuming good nutritional status will be complete within 24 hours. Im intersted to see where you read 48 hours? DOMS Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness is what you are experiencing at the beginning of your next ride. It also is very common for it to persist for 48-72 hoursor longer. As you are working muscle it develops small tears. The healing process from these microfissures is not dissimilar from heaing tear on the surfaceof the skin. The tissue around the area contracts to protect the damaged sections, and a hard section of tissueforms in the damaged area. Once that tissue softens the process is complete and you no longer fell any tightness. Its the Body protecting the damaged areas that is responsible for the flat feeling early in subsequent activities.

    I dont think you would have any problem once warmed up riding the race course you raced the day earlier a couple of minutes per lap slower then the day before.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalfaraway View Post
    The Issue is not Fuel. Gylcogen replacement assuming good nutritional status will be complete within 24 hours. Im intersted to see where you read 48 hours?

    DOMS Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness is what you are experiencing at the beginning of your next ride. It also is very common for it to persist for 48-72 hoursor longer.
    .
    I think I read the 48 hrs in an old copy of Friels Training Bible.

    But upon searching for it, I find out that you were correct Pedal about 24hrs. My 48hr assumption was admittedly antiquated advice...

    "Though early literature appeared to indicate that the time course of glycogen replenishment after exercise-induced depletion was 48 hours or more, more recent data have controverted this thought. One study reported that a carbohydrate intake totaling up to 550-625 grams per day was found to restore muscle glycogen stores to pre-exercise levels within the 22 hours between exercise sessions. The findings of this study were supported by second study in which a carbohydrate intake of 3100 kcal resulted in complete resynthesis of glycogen within 24 hours."
    Glycogen Replenishment After Exhaustive Exercise | The Sport Journal

    I came across this article "Should You Use Protein After a Workout?" It may be able to help with multi-day training blocks.
    Joe Friel - Should You Use Protein After a Workout?

    P.S. - Pedal, concerning "Complex answer is that Scott123 is right. Tired legs after a hard workout could be a serious medical condition. You should see a doctor whenever you experience the slightest discomfort. What is normal for a lot of people might be a serious issue for you."

    I never said anything about medical issue, let alone a serious one. I am interested in where you read that?

    How old are you?
    Last edited by scottz123; 03-16-2013 at 04:50 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Background: Crappy D1 800m/1500m runner before picking up road racing. Crappy cat1 roadie/"Pro" XC racer.
    LeDuke
    I think you are understating yourself...

    You sound pretty accomplished to me!

  17. #17
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    That TheSportJournal.org link appears to be from 1998? There's been a few changes in what's viewed as the most effective way to recover quickly since then, namely extra protein along with carbohydrates immediately post exercise.

    Have a look at this article from 2004 on the subject:



    REGULATION OF MUSCLE GLYCOGEN REPLETION, MUSCLE PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND REPAIR FOLLOWING EXERCISE
    by John L. Ivy
    ©Journal of Sports Science and Medicine (2004) 3, 131-138

    Full Text:
    http://www.jssm.org/vol3/n3/3/v3n3-3pdf.pdf

    CONCLUSIONS
    "The restoration of muscle glycogen after depletion by exercise is a central component of the recovery process. To maximize the rate of muscle glycogen storage during short-term recovery, it is important to consume a carbohydrate supplement as soon after exercise as possible. If consuming only carbohydrate, supplementation should occur frequently, such as every 30 minutes, and provide about 1.2 to 1.5 g of carbohydrate·kg-1 body wt·h-1. However, the efficiency of muscle glycogen storage can be increased significantly with the addition of protein to a carbohydrate supplement. This will reduce both the amount of carbohydrate and frequency of supplementation required to maximize glycogen storage.

    If both carbohydrate and protein are consumed, it is recommended that 0.8 gcarbohydrate·kg-1 body wt plus 0.2 g protein·kg-1 body wt be consumed immediately and 2-hours after exercise during a 4-hour recovery period. The addition of protein to a carbohydrate supplement also has the added advantage of limiting post exercise muscle damage and promoting muscle protein accretion. Along with a rapid increase in muscle glycogen, these processes can have a significant impact on subsequent exercise performance."


    That's quite old as well. I'm fairly there was some more recent research on this in 2008 I think it was? I'll try and find it again.

    Edit:


    Recovery from a cycling time trial is enhanced with carbohydrate-protein supplementation vs. isoenergetic carbohydrate supplementation
    By John M Berardi, Eric E Noreen and Peter WR Lemon
    Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2008, 5:24 doi:10.1186/1550-2783-5-24


    Full Text:
    JISSN | Full text | Recovery from a cycling time trial is enhanced with carbohydrate-protein supplementation vs. isoenergetic carbohydrate supplementation.

    "Background

    In this study we assessed whether a liquid carbohydrate-protein (C+P) supplement (0.8 g/kg C; 0.4 g/kg P) ingested early during recovery from a cycling time trial could enhance a subsequent 60 min effort on the same day vs. an isoenergetic liquid carbohydrate (CHO) supplement (1.2 g/kg).

    Methods

    Two hours after a standardized breakfast, 15 trained male cyclists completed a time trial in which they cycled as far as they could in 60 min (AMex) using a Computrainer indoor trainer. Following AMex, subjects ingested either C+P, or CHO at 10, 60 and 120 min, followed by a standardized meal at 4 h post exercise. At 6 h post AMex subjects repeated the time trial (PMex).

    Results

    There was a significant reduction in performance for both groups in PMex versus AMex. However, performance and power decreases between PMex and AMex were significantly greater (p ≤ 0.05) with CHO (-1.05 ± 0.44 km and -16.50 ± 6.74 W) vs C+P (-0.30 ± 0.50 km and -3.86 ± 6.47 W). Fat oxidation estimated from RER values was significantly greater (p ≤ 0.05) in the C+P vs CHO during the PMex, despite a higher average workload in the C+P group.

    Conclusion

    Under these experimental conditions, liquid C+P ingestion immediately after exercise increases fat oxidation, increases recovery, and improves subsequent same day, 60 min efforts relative to isoenergetic CHO ingestion."
    Last edited by WR304; 03-16-2013 at 05:17 PM.

  18. #18
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    Thanks for research WR - you are correct on it being from 98. (maybe older?). At least from what I found on Internet Archive: Wayback Machine.

    Journal article did make the point about glycogen stores being restored in 24 hrs - if you can eat enough.

    This article has some 'more' recent links also
    Joe Friel - Should You Use Protein After a Workout?

  19. #19
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    One more thing...

    A friend of mine (60 yr old) does multi-day cycling tours. He swears by this product called "Wobenzym N". It's supposed to 'Support the Body's Natural Inflammation Response' with enzymes - versus anti-inflammatory (ibuprofen, aspirin, etc)

    I have taken it before lifting weights (hamstrings would get sore) and it seemed to help. Ideally it is to be taken on an empty stomach at least 45m before eating. It's also available in smaller quantities than what I listed.
    Amazon.com: Garden of Life Wobenzym N - 800 Tablets: Health & Personal Care

  20. #20
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    It’s interesting to note what’s in Wobenzym. At first glance it sounds like a herbal product, although to be fair their website is very clear that it is animal based.

    "The combination of plant-based enzymes, e.g. bromelain and papain, with animal-based enzymes, e.g. trypsin, chymotrypsin and pancreatin, is both effective and essential to assist the regulation of as many systems in the body as possible." wobenzym.info

    Wobenzym -*Enzyme Effectiveness


    “thought this was a good alternative medicine and shocked to find that the ingredients translates:

    Trypsin(pancreas) Sus scrofa 72mg per 3 tablets! is actually - Pig pancreas

    Chymotrypsin(pancreas) Bos taurus - Cattle pancreas

    the company highlights the plant ingredients but found the rest was (translates in plain english) animal offal.”
    Amazon.co.uk review

    Amazon.co.uk: Customer Reviews: Wobenzym N, Healthy Inflammation and Joint Support, 200 Enteric-Coated Tablets


    I found a little on research for Wobenzym:

    “Wobenzym
    Wobenzym is a group of proteolytic enzymes including pancreatin, trypsin,
    chymotrypsin, bromelain, papain, and rutosid. It was initially developed
    by Ransberger in 1959 with MUCOS Pharma to fight cancer. Ransberger
    brought the formula to Germany and since then has pioneered the medical
    use of the systemic enzymes. This remedy has shown effectiveness for arthritis,
    throbbing pains, and tinnitus. It seems to be an alternative to aspirin
    and has shown some benefit to recovering from a myocardial infarction [36].

    Studies in Europe have been conducted on Wobenzym, backing the
    findings of Ransberger. Studies show Wobenzym to be safe with none of the
    adverse side effects of aspirin, ibuprofen, and other nonsteroidal antiinflammatory
    drugs [37]. It has also been shown to improve red blood cell
    viscosity, improve circulation to damaged areas, and have anti-inflammatory
    properties [37]. Whether or not Wobenzym can positively influence the
    symptom of tinnitus has not been adequately studied, but some patients
    have noted relief.”
    Michael D. Seidman, MD, Seilesh Babu, MD


    [36] Riabokon EN, Gavrilenko TI, Kornilina EM, et al. The effect of Wobenzym on the
    atherogenic potential and inflammatory factors at the rehabilitation stage for patients who
    have had a myocardial infarct. Lik Sprava 2000;5:111–4.
    [37] Tilscher H, Keusch R, Neumann K. Results of a double-blind, randomized comparative
    study of Wobenzym-placebo in patients with cervical syndrome. Wien Med Wochenschr
    1996; 146:91–5.

    http://secure.bodylanguagevitamin.co...orTinnitus.pdf

    Have you seen anything to support that it specifically helps recovery from athletic exercise?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    Have you seen anything to support that it specifically helps recovery from athletic exercise?
    Admittedly , no.

    Just my friends recommendation, (he said he researched, but I do not know what that consisted of - he is a pretty detailed kind of guy). He told me , basically what you found, that "Studies show Wobenzym to be safe with none of the adverse side effects of aspirin, ibuprofen, and other nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drugs"

  22. #22
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    Great discussion, thanks for all of the feedback!
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  23. #23
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    Poll for Leg Fatigue at the end of a multi-day training block

    The next time your legs are sore after training and your motivation to ride the next day is waning I'd suggest remembering this interview with Fiorenzo Magni (three time winner of the Giro d'Italia). A mere bit of muscle soreness is no excuse to stop.

    What really annoys me about crashing and breaking my leg last year was that I couldn't get back on the bike and finish the final few miles home. Not good enough.

    ----------------

    Bikerace.info Interview with Fiorenzo Magni


    Fiorenzo Magni

    "VP: What is your fondest memory? What is what you consider your greatest win?

    FM: I consider my greatest win my second place in GC at the Giro of 1956, my last year as a pro.

    VP: You were a very brave second in that incredible Giro. Tell us what happened.

    FM: During stage 12, from Grosseto to Livorno, I crashed on the descent out of Volterra and broke my left collarbone. At the hospital they said I should put on a plaster cast and quit. But I didn't want to. Since the next day was a rest day, I told the doctor to do nothing and that we should wait and see. The day after I asked the doctor to put on an elastic bandage instead of a cast because I wanted to try to ride the following stage, Livorno to Lucca. It worked! I wasn't among the first riders but I finished.

    VP: There is the famous picture of your riding holding a piece of inner tube in your mouth during the 13th stage, the individual time trial of San Luca. Can you explain?

    FM: Just before the stage started I tried to ride my bike on a climb and I noticed I couldn't use the muscles of my left arm to pull on the handle bar very hard. So my mechanic, Faliero Masi, the best mechanic of all time, cut a piece of inner tube and suggested I pull it with my mouth. That was a great idea!

    VP: Then, during stage 16, from Bologna to Rapallo, through the Apennines, you crashed again and broke your humerus.

    FM: Yes, I didnt have enough strength in my left arm and I crashed after hitting a ditch by the road. I fell on my already broken bone and fainted from the pain. The ambulance came to bring me to the hospital. In the ambulance they gave me water and I got back on my feet. When I realized that I was being taken to the hospital I screamed and told the driver to stop. I didn't want to abandon the Giro!

    I mounted my bike again and restarted pedaling. The peloton had waited for me, so I arrived in Rapallo in a relatively good position. I had no idea of how serious my condition was, I just knew that I was in a lot of pain but I didn't want to have X-rays that evening. During the days that followed I could hold my own.

    VP: You were even able to ride the Stelvio Pass (Stage 19)!

    FM: Yes, there I didn't have problems on the climb, but the descent was hard. On the climb I could go up at my own speed. At that point my aim was just to finish the Giro, not to win it of course. I didn't want to abandon the Giro in the year of my retirement.

    VP: Why did you have problems on the descent?

    FM: Because I could not brake with my left hand and I skidded. That was tough!

    VP: Then there was Stage 20 from Merano to Trento, over the Costalunga, Rolle, Brocon and Bondone climbs. Pasquale Fornara was the Pink Jersey. That day 60 people abandoned! What happened?

    FM: It snowed the whole day and it was very cold, I had not noticed how much. Along the way I saw many bikes parked next to bars and I asked what was going on. They told me that most of the peloton froze and had to quit. Then, before reaching Trento I saw the Pink Jersey quitting too! "What?? Am I seeing things?" I wondered.

    If I were the Pink Jersey I would have continued, even if I had to walk, but I would never abandon!

    VP: What happened next?

    FM: When we were in Trento my team car came up to me and said I was third. "Third?!", I wondered again. I was third that day and became second in the GC.

    VP: Gaul won that stage and went from 16 minutes behind to winning the 1956 Giro.

    FM: Actually, I thought about attacking Charly Gaul in the following stages and trying to win my fourth Giro. I tried attacking him a couple of times during the last two stages, but he was too strong.

    The day after the end of the Giro I went to an institute that specialized in bone injuries. And they gave me a dressing-down! They said I had two fractures - I thought I had only one - and forced me to put a plaster cast on.

    The next day I went to my machine shop and asked my mechanic to cut the plaster cast away with the special scissors he used for sheet metal. This way I could start training again. Well, my shoulder is a little crooked now, but that's that. Can you notice that??"

    http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/magni.html

    -------------------------------------------------------

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