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  1. #1
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Paleo recovery drink?

    I know there is a Paleo thread below but it has gotten massive...anyway:

    The recovery drink in the Paleo book just seems like an insane amount of calories. I weight 150 and he reccomends a 600 cal drink with around 90 grams of protein. I thought the body could only handle 25 g or so at once. If somebody could shed some light on this I would be quite thankful...I am confused about this now and cannot find an answer anywhere!

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    You don’t think that you burn at least 600 calories on a ride?

    As for the protein part you are correct most people can metabolize between 20g and 30g of protein at once. With that said additional protein can be taken post exercise for the additional caloretic volume. Personally I take 25g of protein about a half an hour prior to exercise as well.
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    I have the book but haven't gotten into it. What do they say about sports drinks like Gatorade/Powerade?

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    Uh, oops. I was reading the 90 calories of protein in the book as 90 GRAMS, which is what confused me. 90 calories is only like 25 grams or one scoop of whey protein, completely reasonable amount. This makes much more sense now. The proportions in there do make sense and I will give it a shot after my ride this AM.

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    Why follow a diet just for the sake of being 'Paleo' or whatever when it has such ridiculous recommendations? There's absolutely no reason why you'd need 90 grams of protein following an endurance event (or any exercise for that matter). As I mentioned in the other Paleo thread, the whole premise of this diet (that our diet should mirror a mythic paleo environment of our ancestors) has been contradicted by recent findings of rapid genetic changes during the last 5,000 years (most of which are adaptive changes to dietary environment). This is a quack diet and a marketing gimmick in a crowded space of diet book authors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevesbike
    Why follow a diet just for the sake of being 'Paleo' or whatever when it has such ridiculous recommendations? There's absolutely no reason why you'd need 90 grams of protein following an endurance event (or any exercise for that matter). As I mentioned in the other Paleo thread, the whole premise of this diet (that our diet should mirror a mythic paleo environment of our ancestors) has been contradicted by recent findings of rapid genetic changes during the last 5,000 years (most of which are adaptive changes to dietary environment). This is a quack diet and a marketing gimmick in a crowded space of diet book authors.
    Dude...read up 1 post. 90 CALORIES, not GRAMS. Very helpful post, I now know everything I wanted to about Paleo recovery drinks. Enlightening!

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevesbike
    Why follow a diet just for the sake of being 'Paleo' or whatever when it has such ridiculous recommendations? There's absolutely no reason why you'd need 90 grams of protein following an endurance event (or any exercise for that matter). As I mentioned in the other Paleo thread, the whole premise of this diet (that our diet should mirror a mythic paleo environment of our ancestors) has been contradicted by recent findings of rapid genetic changes during the last 5,000 years (most of which are adaptive changes to dietary environment).
    source? again.

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    Sources, (one of the major papers): John Hawks et al., in Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences, Recent acceleration of human adaptive evolution, 2007 104:20753-20758

    Some news articles on it and a quote from John Hawks re diet:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/healt...43228620071210

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/Human...s-127012.shtml

    “The ecology of humans has been changing. The biggest changes have to do with agriculture and its consequences – dealing with a new subsistence pattern that caused people to rely on foods that were never very important before, a radical shift from hunter-gatherer diets. For instance, agricultural populations tend to have more copies of a gene for salivary amylase, which helps them digest starch,” Hawks concludes.

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    and another nice summarizing quote from Hawks (from the reuters piece):

    "people today are genetically more different from people living 5,000 years ago than those humans were different from the Neanderthals who vanished 30,000 years ago, according to anthropologist John Hawks of the University of Wisconsin."

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    the recovery drink of paleolithic man,water?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevesbike
    Sources, (one of the major papers): John Hawks et al., in Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences, Recent acceleration of human adaptive evolution, 2007 104:20753-20758

    Some news articles on it and a quote from John Hawks re diet:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/healt...43228620071210

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/Human...s-127012.shtml

    “The ecology of humans has been changing. The biggest changes have to do with agriculture and its consequences – dealing with a new subsistence pattern that caused people to rely on foods that were never very important before, a radical shift from hunter-gatherer diets. For instance, agricultural populations tend to have more copies of a gene for salivary amylase, which helps them digest starch,” Hawks concludes.
    not very convincing. in fact there were only a couple sentences dedicated to digestion....in reference to a better ability to digest milk & starches, but that doesn't mean those things are ideal in comparison to meat, vegetables and fruit. ....and "Even with these changes, however, human DNA remains more than 99 percent identical, the researchers noted."

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny K
    I know there is a Paleo thread below but it has gotten massive...anyway:

    The recovery drink in the Paleo book just seems like an insane amount of calories. I weight 150 and he reccomends a 600 cal drink with around 90 grams of protein. I thought the body could only handle 25 g or so at once. If somebody could shed some light on this I would be quite thankful...I am confused about this now and cannot find an answer anywhere!

    I'm doing oppossum colostrum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevesbike
    “The ecology of humans has been changing. The biggest changes have to do with agriculture and its consequences – dealing with a new subsistence pattern that caused people to rely on foods that were never very important before, a radical shift from hunter-gatherer diets. For instance, agricultural populations tend to have more copies of a gene for salivary amylase, which helps them digest starch,” Hawks concludes.
    While it's true that humans have recently evolved a tolerance for certain foods such as starch and dairy (over the past say 10k years), its a pretty big leap to suggest that these are optimal foods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny K
    I know there is a Paleo thread below but it has gotten massive...anyway:

    The recovery drink in the Paleo book just seems like an insane amount of calories. I weight 150 and he reccomends a 600 cal drink with around 90 grams of protein. I thought the body could only handle 25 g or so at once. If somebody could shed some light on this I would be quite thankful...I am confused about this now and cannot find an answer anywhere!
    I wouldn't worry too much about going pure paleo - allowances need to be made for endurance athletes.

    But a relatively healthy post-ride drink is frozen fruit + juice + protein powder, thrown in a blender. Then an hour later grub on some meat, rice and veggies. Then an hour later ...

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    sounds like people are looking for loopholes,cheats, in their "paleo" diet,what's next paleo gu? ep-ale-o

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    Quote Originally Posted by perrygeo
    While it's true that humans have recently evolved a tolerance for certain foods such as starch and dairy (over the past say 10k years), its a pretty big leap to suggest that these are optimal foods.
    I'm critical of the so-called Paleo diet because it makes even bigger leaps - 1) suggesting that if a food was part of a Paleo diet then it must be optimal, and 2) that 'neolithic foods' should be eliminated from the diet due to their 'toxicity,' etc. Both claims are false. The genetic data I referred to indicates that we are not adapted to the 'paleo' dietary environment. For an endurance athlete, the so-called toxic neolithic foods should be the cornerstone of their diet. It's quackery to say such foods are 'toxic' or maladaptive.

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    The paleo "diet" is just a set of guiding principles to help us choose the most optimal foods. When you're training and racing in endurance sports, you're putting a stress on your body way above normal levels, therefore it stands to reason the most optimal food would be higher carbohydrate, portable and easily digestible. Hence energy drinks, bars and gels. This in no way conflicts with the theory that we should choose optimal foods based on our bodies innate nutritional needs.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevesbike
    For an endurance athlete, the so-called toxic neolithic foods should be the cornerstone of their diet. It's quackery to say such foods are 'toxic' or maladaptive.
    Some of these foods are 'toxic' or at least painful to some people. Should these people who suffer from consuming these foods not choose endurance athletics just because their body rejects this 'cornerstone'?

    The paleo diet just pushes vegetables, fruits, meats... ie less processed foods.

    Paleo works for some of us. Your diet works for you, but Thank you for your concern.

    Stosh
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    Regarding the pre-during-post ride nutrition, I assume everyone is talking about Paleo for Athletes.

    Joe Friel trains all kinds of endurance athletes and constantly shows improvement by having them follow this nutrition guide. By eating the right mix of protein and carbs before, during, and after endurance exercise (over 1.5 hours), you can fuel you muscles and the rest of your body. He has shown that protein during exercise (BCAA) holds off the feeling of fatigue because when the brain runs out of the right branch chain amino acids, it starts feeling tired.

    I've been using this fueling method for the last couple of weeks and have noticed a huge difference. I have taken 10-15 minutes off my 1.5hr ride, don't feel wiped out at the end, and still have lots of energy during the day. I use acceleraid with a half scoop of protein per 24oz during the ride, and about the same after. Then I make sure I get a good meal within 2-3 hours.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Huff
    I use acceleraid with a half scoop of protein per 24oz during the ride, and about the same after. Then I make sure I get a good meal within 2-3 hours.
    Do you only use one specific protein or have you had the chance to experiment yet?

    Stosh
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    What elite athletes has Friel coached?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by herbn
    the recovery drink of paleolithic man,water?
    I thought it might be blood . . . . .
    Thanks to www.weavercycleworks.com for my awesome bike frames!

  23. #23
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    Why all the hate? I don't understand it. Have all of you read the book? (paleo diet for athletes)

    Friel and Cordain, in the Paleo Diet for Athletes, cite roughly 400 studies, research projects, and articles in quality publications. Add to that the "analysis of 229 hunter-gatherer diets and the nutrient content of wild plants and animals". Is the point of all this research to cram that information into a 210 page book of "quack" science? I think not.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevesbike
    I'm critical of the so-called Paleo diet because it makes even bigger leaps - 1) suggesting that if a food was part of a Paleo diet then it must be optimal, and 2) that 'neolithic foods' should be eliminated from the diet due to their 'toxicity,' etc. Both claims are false.
    1) The argument is very simple. Eat foods that are fresh, not processed, and would have been available to the average hunter-gatherer. Something non-optimal such as honey would be on the list, but quantities would be very limited due to the peril of obtaining it, and the rare chance of finding a beehive in the wild.

    2) In the hunter-gatherer cultures examined in the book (Eskimos, Warao, Lufas, Lapps, Masai, etc), the populations "regardless of their age, were universally lean, fit, and free of the chronic degenerative diseases that are epidemic in our world". Modern culture is plagued with high blood pressure, heart disease, unhealthy blood cholesterol levels, diabetes, and obesity among other ailments.Can you say the same of any modern nation whose staple foods are non paleo? (grains, starches, dairy, processed sugars, etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by stevesbike
    The genetic data I referred to indicates that we are not adapted to the 'paleo' dietary environment. For an endurance athlete, the so-called toxic neolithic foods should be the cornerstone of their diet. It's quackery to say such foods are 'toxic' or maladaptive.
    Should read: "the cornerstone of their recovery diet". In this text which is adapted for the endurance athlete, non-paleo foods such as whey protein, antioxidants, caffeine, sports drinks, gels, bars, and other nutritional and recovery aids are not excluded. They are however restricted to being used just before, during, and after excercise.

    Quote Originally Posted by flargle
    What elite athletes has Friel coached?
    Friel first started this eating plan with his own training in 1995, and I quote from the book, "That year Joe finished third at the US National Championships with an excellent race and qualified for the US team for the World Championships." He was 51 years old at the time! "By the late 1990s, Joe was recommending the Paleo Diet to athletes he coached, including Ryan Bolton, a member of the US Olympic Triathlon team in the 2000 Sydney games and a winner of the Ironman USA Triathlon." Also mentioned is Gordo Bryn, winner of the Ultraman Triathlon and the World's Toughest Half-Ironman Triathlon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stosh (Canada)
    Do you only use one specific protein or have you had the chance to experiment yet?

    Stosh
    I've just been using the EAS protein from Costco. Seems to dissolve very well and doesn't upset my stomach on the rides.

    I should point out that I'm a clyde, so my 1.5 hr ride probably only takes you skinny guys 1 hour. 1 hour is my target and I'm slowly getting there.

  25. #25
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    JZazzi, there are lots of intuitively compelling theories that turn out to be false. The Paleo diet is one such example. Re your arguments for it, there are lots of books longer than 210 pages with numerous citations that are quack science (e.g., any creation science volume). It's also false that hunter gatherer populations are more healthy due to their diet. For one, there are huge confounds in this - a hunter gatherer population tends to expend more calories than a sedentary population. Second, many claims about these populations are based on weak evidence and are just false (see "Low incidence of cardiovascular disease among the Inuit—what is the evidence?" conclusion: "the mortality from all cardiovascular diseases combined is not lower among the Inuit than in white comparison populations.").

    Like astrology, some of the 'recommendations' of the paleo diet work because they are so general and vague that they would be included in any sensible diet - like eat fresh unprocessed foods, vegetables etc.

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