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  1. #1
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    Paleo diet - I use to be suspect....

    Im not one of those people who believes everything i read. But I did notice that joel freil and other top mountain bike folks have been doing the paleo. I honestly thought it was B.S. But i have been stuck at 185 pounds for 6 months. Started the paleo and in 1 and a half months ago and now am down to 177. My recovery time has really improve, and my race times have gotten 15% better. The first couple of weeks sucked, but its really starting to kick in. I was a skeptic, now im a beleiver! Anyone else with this kind of luck?

  2. #2
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    I learned about the Paleo diet on the Road bike forum, I believe. I think it's a great diet and has kept me pretty lean. Been following it loosely for about 6 years.

    A program on NPR I was listening to had a food expert, and he talked about his philosophy which goes like this:
    -The food triangle should be eliminated and replaced with a food line
    -One end of the line is "processed foods"
    -The other end is "unprocessed foods"

    Try to stay on the unprocessed side.

    That seems pretty simple, and a good rule of thumb to apply to any diet.
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  3. #3
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    Same here, I have been following it (more or less) for years, too. I just do not share their paranoia for dairy and fat. However, it's been easy for me since I do not tolerate wheat products very well. If you haven't read it yet you should get their athletes book

  4. #4
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    Too. Much. Meat. For a vegetarian anyway!
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  5. #5
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    Yep, I started the Paleo diet in 2007, and it's worked very well for me. I ride and race noticeably better when I'm following it closely than when I'm not.

    I'd also recommend "The Paleo Diet for Athletes" if you don't already have it.
    - Keith

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  6. #6
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    Any time you eliminate a class of food from hour diet you will eat a little less. If it's junk food (refined carbs) you've eliminated, so much the better. Stone age people didn't eat corn/soybean/hormone fed meat, so if you're really eating paleo, you are eating wild fish and game or not eating much meat.That's would also good.

  7. #7
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    Been doing "athlete modified" Paleo for over a year now and the results have been nothing short of spectacular. Dropped weight, less food cravings, more energy, faster times, quicker recovery, less stomach issues and just feel better all around.

    I still do some grains (rice, quinoa, oats), dairy, potatoes and beans. While not "optimal" food according to the strict paleo diet, I feel these foods are the only way to provide the extra carbs needed for heavy training phases. But the majority of my diet is minimally processed meat, veggies, fruit and nuts.

    The biggest thing for me was eliminating gluten grains which, in retrospect, i was mildly allergic to. I don't miss bread or pasta or other wheat flour-based foods at all - in fact they make me slightly queasy just thinking about them and the resulting stomach problems I used to get from eating that crap.

  8. #8
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    What do you use in place of bread?
    cheers
    Pagey

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pagey
    What do you use in place of bread?

    Fruit and vegetables. Also, with an increase in meat you body will adapt to use fat more efficiently as a fuel source. I personally believe a lot of cyclists or other endurance athletes rely on carbohydrates too much. I think a performance diet should be based more on body type and ability to handle carbs. Switching to a different diet that matches your body type might feel weird at first, but when your body adapts you'll see your fat drop, your muscle increase, and your performance go up as well.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by pagey
    What do you use in place of bread?
    Paleo for athletes you can eat bread, pasta, rice, bagel, right after training or a race (only), preferable within 30 minutes. Google = trainingbible paleo for athlets cliff notes.

  11. #11
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    I have been (mostly) following "The Paleo Diet For Athletes" for the better part of 3 years, with GREAT results to my weight. My biggest surprise was the disappearance of morning joint stiffness. While I may not ready for twice a day 3-4 hour MTB rides day after day, now at least I only have a memory of the previous ride and not a hunched limping gait for hours or days afterward.

    Stosh
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    I guess I question how beans, rice, etc... can be bad for you? I'm sure there are people that tolerate better than others but these are natural foods. I'm very interested in this and plan on getting the book this week to learn more.

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    Beans have mild toxins called lectins which need to be reduced by soaking or fermentation. Gluten grains are mildly toxic to many people as well. Not sure about rice but the main complaint against legumes and grains from the paleo perspective is that humans did not bother with them until relatively modern technology allowed for mass production, harvesting, storage and processing. In other words we evolved largely in the absence of starchy foods (except for roots) and considering the medical harm caused by highly processed starch foods, there is no reason to conclude they are optimal. That is what the paleo diet is about - selecting the optimal foods by mimicking the dietary trends of our pre-agricutural ancestors. Not to say that beans, rice and grains are BAD per-se, just that they are not optimal when compared to fruits, veggies, nuts and meats.

  14. #14
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    Paleo diet?
    So easy a caveman could do it.
    Niner Jet 9 RDO, Scalpel 29, XTC 650b, 04 Stumpjumper FSR Pro, Trek Rigid SS - No suspension, no gears....no problem

  15. #15
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    I bought the book "Paleo Diet for Athletes" about a year ago and plowed thorugh it in a single evening. I dropped 30 pounds (went from 255 to 225) in 3 months and have maintained between 225 and 230 since then. The big thing for me is that I have actually become stronger both in the weight room and on the bike. Very rarely am I sore after a workout and am able to get into it again the next day. Definitely give this book a closer look if you are interested in nutrition side of your training.
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  16. #16
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    I consider myself a self taught expert on these matters, infact I'm writing a book on it!

    essentially what you are doing is eating less carbs, this raises your cortisol levels and sex hormone levels. Which, naturally makes you a better athlete.

    HOWEVER

    there are people out there that will do better on a higher carb (still crap free) version of the paleo. As the raised cortisol can make people sick, very sick, infact lets not get into the mind bender of how to make them unsick. Its Not Easy.

    My advice, play around with your level of carbs in your diet whilst keeping it paleo and see what works best. Also Avoid potatos, eat african yams instead for carbs, why? domestic potatoes contain a chemical that'll give you heart palpitations in high doses, and make your performance suffer in low doses.

    there are some of us out there that need high carb, others that need high protein. Myself, I need high carb, without it all hell breaks lose.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob@adrenalfuel
    I consider myself a self taught expert on these matters, infact I'm writing a book on it! ....
    there are some of us out there that need high carb, others that need high protein. Myself, I need high carb, without it all hell breaks lose.
    Look forward to seeing the book - got any details yet?

    And I while I agree that carb needs are variable, I think it really depends on the timing and periodization. If I am in the build phase cranking out three or four hard workouts a week and racing on the weekends, i can't get enough carbs.. If I'm base training or resting, carb intake is moderate to low. Its all about timing - big carb meal right after tough workouts, med/low carb paleo diet the rest of the time.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by perrygeo
    Look forward to seeing the book - got any details yet?

    And I while I agree that carb needs are variable, I think it really depends on the timing and periodization. If I am in the build phase cranking out three or four hard workouts a week and racing on the weekends, i can't get enough carbs.. If I'm base training or resting, carb intake is moderate to low. Its all about timing - big carb meal right after tough workouts, med/low carb paleo diet the rest of the time.

    oh man, if i read all your secrets online i might catch up to you on course!

  19. #19
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    No details as of yet, its currently being planned. The difficulty is the angle to take on it so that it is sale-able. my knowledge lies with the medical aspects rather than the athletics side, though if I find significant interest I mind research deeper into the athletics side and write on that also. I race myself so do know a little from the first hand experience of using my own techniques. What surprised me myself, as a sick person (who avoids eating grains) racing against perfectly healthy people I did rather well, specially considering I race enduros. My best placing was over the summer. 2 hour enduro with 150riders in my category, placed 14th. Not bad for a person who at the time had some serious kidney pain and rode 90% of the race with the saddle slammed down (god love gravity droppers) riding standing up. Would have thought I'd have came last in those circumstances

    but back to the science

    The important thing, is to cut out the grains. The main topic of my medical book is the immune system response to grains, we haven't evolved to eat grains so the immune system treats them as a foreign invader and attacks. The level of attack will varies considerably from person to person, some have medically recognized diseases that can be attributed to it, I expect most of the people certainly won't fall into the category of being medically affected by it. But it may well impede their performance. The immune attack in the gut creates toxins in various forms that'll slow you up.
    If your quite aware of yourself and had it quite bad you'd find that you actually felt fitter, and faster at the end of a 1 or 2 hour ride than before as you'd have sweat out a lot of the toxins that had settled in your body.

    I think I'll stop there as I'm throwing out some really wack ideas without proper explanation so no doubt sound like a bit of a Wacko mad scientist. You'd be half right if you thought that!

    If there's demand on here for more, and properly explained views such as the above I'll type out a small introductory peace and see how its received. Got nil time at the moment though

    So back to pondering whether its faster riding 2.1" racing ralphs out of the saddle or 2.2 mountain kings in the saddle...

    Rob

  20. #20
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    Ok, anyone who has started this...

    I think I have seen Friel or someone else advise to start this diet with breakfast for a few weeks then add lunch for a couple weeks then transition to full on Paleo. Any thoughts on whether to jump into this headlong or do a slow transition from your regular diet?

    *eating pizza rolls as i type this by the way

  21. #21
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    I jumped in stomach first on January 1st a few years ago. The plan was to just go PALEO for 31 days strict with only, a little crap, on the weekends. Once I got a copy of the Paleo diet for Athletes late that January, I have 'tried' to live that one since.

    My results for the 30 days was a drop of 40+ lbs with more disappearing over the next few months. Anytime I can live this food lifestyle I lose weight.

    Good Luck anyway you try it. Hopefully it works for you.

    Stosh
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  22. #22
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    How does having a higher cortisol level help you as an athlete? Is it the anti-inflammatory effects of it?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny K
    Ok, anyone who has started this...

    I think I have seen Friel or someone else advise to start this diet with breakfast for a few weeks then add lunch for a couple weeks then transition to full on Paleo. Any thoughts on whether to jump into this headlong or do a slow transition from your regular diet?

    *eating pizza rolls as i type this by the way
    Jump straight into it! I jumped full boar into it. I raced 5 days after I started the diet and I totally bonked in the race. It takes 3-4 weeks to adjust, so if you dont have any more races the next month jump into it!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopid03
    How does having a higher cortisol level help you as an athlete? Is it the anti-inflammatory effects of it?
    it doesn't so much, it alters the balance of other hormones that do aid performance

  25. #25
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    Ponch, I think you heard Michael Pollan on NPR. The Pollan mantra, which kind of boils down the paleo diet...



    Eat food, not too much, mostly plants.
    "Bikes aren't fast--people are fast. Bikes are overpriced. It's an important distinction."---BikeSnob NYC

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny K
    Ok, anyone who has started this...

    I think I have seen Friel or someone else advise to start this diet with breakfast for a few weeks then add lunch for a couple weeks then transition to full on Paleo. Any thoughts on whether to jump into this headlong or do a slow transition from your regular diet?

    *eating pizza rolls as i type this by the way
    Dove right into it in October of last year. Strangely enough the night I went out and bought the food I became horribly ill and puked my brains out for 24 hours. Once I felt better I began strictly following it for about 2 months. Now I usually give myself 2 or 3 cheat meals a week which means I follow the diet 85% to 90% of the time. If I know that some sort of athletic event is coming up I get strict with it. I find that allowing myself the cheat meals gives me extra motivation to turn down bad foods that come up during the week. For example if there is a birthday in my office and someone brings in cake it is really easy for me to turn that down in favor of some pancakes or a burger later on in the week. I donít want to waste a cheat meal on a birthday cake.
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  27. #27
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    Is there a way I can get drunk and stay on the paleo diet? Or is that cheating?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfxc
    Is there a way I can get drunk and stay on the paleo diet? Or is that cheating?
    Dope is o.k. = zero carbs.

  29. #29
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    Alcohol, being fermented grain, is expressly prohibited.

    I've heard a little about the Paleo as it's the way of eating promoted by Crossfitters. I hadn't thought about doing it and bike racing. I've very loosely been trying to follow it for a couple months. Mostly added more nuts and fruits and vegetables and cut back on the grains.

    Obviously not doing that great though as I've settled in at about 205 when I hardly ever weighed above 200 (in my 20's and early 30's).

    This is a cool discussion and would like to hear more from Rob@adrenalfuel. Very interesting stuff.

    Cheers!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by goneskiian
    Alcohol, being fermented grain, is expressly prohibited.
    SNIP

    While that may be true for Beer and some Spirits, there is still:

    Wine=Grape=fruit
    and
    Mead=Honey=Simple Sugar, which is permitted after exercise in the Paleo for Athletes diet.

    Just like the diet will expand your choice of carbs to those in different fruits and vegetables, get ready to experiment with Paleo friendly beverages.

    Ultimately you will still be responsible for your choice of carbs in liquid form as well.

    Stosh
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  31. #31
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    You're right, I was thinking beer.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti2424
    Dove right into it in October of last year. Strangely enough the night I went out and bought the food I became horribly ill and puked my brains out for 24 hours. Once I felt better I began strictly following it for about 2 months. Now I usually give myself 2 or 3 cheat meals a week which means I follow the diet 85% to 90% of the time. If I know that some sort of athletic event is coming up I get strict with it. I find that allowing myself the cheat meals gives me extra motivation to turn down bad foods that come up during the week. For example if there is a birthday in my office and someone brings in cake it is really easy for me to turn that down in favor of some pancakes or a burger later on in the week. I donít want to waste a cheat meal on a birthday cake.
    What were you eating the first few days that it caused you to get so sick?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopid03
    What were you eating the first few days that it caused you to get so sick?
    I think that I had a bad omelette for breakfast that morning. My wife and I had went to the store and bought the food to start the diet and I began to feel ill while shopping. By the time I got home life was miserable. Trying to look at the positive I figure after that horrible night following a simple diet was a breeze.
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  34. #34
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    Anyone notice a drop in energy levels when first starting?

    I'm not implementing the diet fully, but I started replacing a portion of my usual carbs with extra veg and fruit. I seem to have a little less energy and motivation to train, although it could just be a training lull, happens ever so often. Usually when I feel a little hungry throughout the day I have some cookies or granola, been having fruit instead, but it doesnt seem to give any energy. Maybe I'm just so used to having carbs. Also, my stomach feels really dense after the meal of mostly veg and meat.

    It could just be coincidence, but I did have 2 faster than usual recoveries from rides that usually leave me needing a day off.

    But as long as I can remember I've been a big carb eater, and often times I feel quite energetic afterwards - which I like to make use off with exercise. As a kid I was always hyper after supper, in highschool I would come home from class, cram a bunch of junk food and then jump on the bike. And I've always been able to jog or do hard exercise within minutes of eating a big meal, and beans or exotic foods never give me any problems. I guess I'm gifted with excellent digestion.

    I'm thinking to keep the amount of veg high, maybe those extra nutrients are good for recovery, but keep the carbs whenever I feel like I need them.

  35. #35
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    It makes sense - if your body gets a lot of carbs, it learns to burn carbs. In the presence of even moderate amounts of insulin, fat mobilization and utilization is decreased. Once you get off the roller coaster of sugar highs, your body learns to use fat more efficiently. Some people can continue using fat as a primary fuel source up to 70% of their VO2Max!

    But right after you reduce the carbs, yeah your tank is on empty.. until your body realizes it has a huge reserve tank of adipose tissue just waiting to be tapped.

  36. #36
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    You are changing your body's main source of carbohydrates from complex to simple. For some people it takes some adjustment. One thing to look into is keeping track of your calories and macronutrient ratios (Carbs, Fats, Proteins) to see if you are even consuming the same amount of calories and if so are you getting the same amount of carbohydrates but in simple form.
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  37. #37
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    Perhaps you also aren't eating enough calories? What's your weight been doing?

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    Rob C02, I work in road construction and when I first started my energy and strength was way down. It lasted for a little over 2 weeks then things started to come around. Now 5 months later guys on the job are always asking how I got so strong since then. Asking me about my diet. I feel great now.

  39. #39
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    i dont count calories or anything, just eat until i'm full, eat again when hungry. I cook the majority of my meals from scratch, have always included a good portion of veg though. Weight has been steady for past week.
    I'm 5'10" 150 so dont have a whole lot of fat on me, just a thin layer on the belly that seems to fluctuate regularly. Last spring I paid close attention to G.I. foods and lost 5 pounds easy, but have since given in to the sweets (but otherwise whole grains) and been staying 150 +/-3. Weight isnt really the issue though. I kind of just like the theory behind this diet.

    Dropout: Glad to know!

    I have an A race in 3 weeks and then my season is over, so I'm not sure if to hold off until then, or stick with it and keep tapering down the carbs. But then in Dec I will be out of the country for a few weeks and carb intake will be heavy, hosts would not allow otherwise

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_co2
    Anyone notice a drop in energy levels when first starting?

    I'm not implementing the diet fully, but I started replacing a portion of my usual carbs with extra veg and fruit. I seem to have a little less energy and motivation to train, although it could just be a training lull, happens ever so often. Usually when I feel a little hungry throughout the day I have some cookies or granola, been having fruit instead, but it doesnt seem to give any energy. Maybe I'm just so used to having carbs. Also, my stomach feels really dense after the meal of mostly veg and meat.

    It could just be coincidence, but I did have 2 faster than usual recoveries from rides that usually leave me needing a day off.

    But as long as I can remember I've been a big carb eater, and often times I feel quite energetic afterwards - which I like to make use off with exercise. As a kid I was always hyper after supper, in highschool I would come home from class, cram a bunch of junk food and then jump on the bike. And I've always been able to jog or do hard exercise within minutes of eating a big meal, and beans or exotic foods never give me any problems. I guess I'm gifted with excellent digestion.

    I'm thinking to keep the amount of veg high, maybe those extra nutrients are good for recovery, but keep the carbs whenever I feel like I need them.
    Try some nuts and seeds, unsalted. You can buy them in bulk at some wholefoods and supermarkets. Mix Almonds, Sunflowerseeds, pumpkin seeds, etc..

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    This diet sounds very interesting. I weigh about 138 lbs and I do not want to lose weight, but I want to increase energy and strength. Will this diet work for me? Or will I turn into a bean pole?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkumtrider
    This diet sounds very interesting. I weigh about 138 lbs and I do not want to lose weight, but I want to increase energy and strength. Will this diet work for me? Or will I turn into a bean pole?
    you can get as big and fat or as small and skinny as you want on virtually any diet. it's a matter of the quantity you take in.

    you just gotta eat equal or more calories in meats/veggies/nuts/fruits than you do (did) in breads/legumes/processed stuff.

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    you may take in more ("real") protein with this diet, which may help you when you do strength training

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12to29
    Try some nuts and seeds, unsalted. You can buy them in bulk at some wholefoods and supermarkets. Mix Almonds, Sunflowerseeds, pumpkin seeds, etc..
    I was going to say the same thing! Great addition to any snack is a handful of nuts. My favorite are almonds and walnuts. Walnuts are a great source of Omega 3's.

    Cheers!

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomit
    you can get as big and fat or as small and skinny as you want on virtually any diet. it's a matter of the quantity you take in.

    you just gotta eat equal or more calories in meats/veggies/nuts/fruits than you do (did) in breads/legumes/processed stuff.
    Bingo!

    I personally lost weight, got stronger, have more energy, and now recover quicker from heavy workouts. I am to the point where I eat just about the same amount of calories and macronutrient ratios every day (I track what goes into me) and am able to gain, loose, or maintain my weight by simply tweaking my diet accordingly.

    It's a good idea to track what you eat even if it's just for a week to see where you are at so you can put together a templete for a nutrition plan that has some orginzation to it.
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  46. #46
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    The meat in this diet still scares me a bit, especially if it's store bought, the rest of the diet sounds great. It might be a good idea, if you're eating much meat, to have your cholesterol checked. If your HDL is less than 40, you might want to cut down. Every once in a while, an athletic, otherwise healthy guy has a major coronary out on the trail (x/c ski trail in the examples I'm thinking of). Not a bad way to go, I admit, but the wife and kids might not like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfeather
    The meat in this diet still scares me a bit, especially if it's store bought, the rest of the diet sounds great. It might be a good idea, if you're eating much meat, to have your cholesterol checked. If your HDL is less than 40, you might want to cut down.
    The meats are supposed to be 'trimmed' of ALL visible fat, so extra lean or at least lean. The aim is very little or none of the stuff that is grain fed/fattened and mostly free range/grass fed to cut down on Saturated fats.

    Less Saturated fat is supposed to cut down on LDL, and limit any reduction in HDL levels when we follow the meat guidelines either of the books.

    Also seafood with lower saturated fat levels are not suppose to increase blood cholesterol from what I have read.

    Ultimately I think that the fibre from the increased consumption of fresh vegetables should provide for lower cholesterol levels as well.

    Stosh
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by goneskiian
    I was going to say the same thing! Great addition to any snack is a handful of nuts. My favorite are almonds and walnuts. Walnuts are a great source of Omega 3's.

    Cheers!
    Question on Almonds:

    I love almonds but I like a little variety. The smoke almonds are great but there is enough salt on them to limit your consumption. What about buying a bag of cooking almonds and doing this recipe I found without the salt. It should work right?:

    SMOKED ALMONDS

    1/2 tsp. liquid smoke
    2 tsp. water
    1 c. almonds
    1 tbsp. oil
    Salt (we would make without)

    Mix smoke and water. Then add almonds and mix well. Let stand overnight. Drain almonds and place in shallow pan. Add oil and toss until well coated. Roast in 300 degree oven for 25 minutes, stirring frequently. When golden, remove and sprinkle with salt. Yield: 1 cup.

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    any tips for quick breakfasts?

    fruit smoothies rock...but i'm sorta concerned i'll overdo it in that regard. 1 banana, 1 orange, and ~1 cup of strawberries/blueberries is a lot of fructose upon waking. (~50 grams sugar?)...i know sugar from fruit is apparently better than the stuff you find in fruit loops...but still....doesn't seem ideal or well rounded. on the other hand, the GI of all that stuff is quite a bit lower than a bagel, any sort of cereal, or even oatmeal. and the glycemic load is very low. would still prefer to get a mix of stuff in though.

    i like eggs, and they're easy enough...but the 'paleo diet for athletes' book suggests limiting them a fair amount. i can eat 4-5 easily for breakfast....and they're saying 6 per week.
    Last edited by nomit; 10-11-2009 at 10:11 PM.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by roy harley
    Question on Almonds:

    I love almonds but I like a little variety. The smoke almonds are great but there is enough salt on them to limit your consumption. What about buying a bag of cooking almonds and doing this recipe I found without the salt. It should work right?:

    SMOKED ALMONDS

    1/2 tsp. liquid smoke
    2 tsp. water
    1 c. almonds
    1 tbsp. oil
    Salt (we would make without)

    Mix smoke and water. Then add almonds and mix well. Let stand overnight. Drain almonds and place in shallow pan. Add oil and toss until well coated. Roast in 300 degree oven for 25 minutes, stirring frequently. When golden, remove and sprinkle with salt. Yield: 1 cup.
    Great idea! I use cooking walnuts in my salads all the time.
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by roy harley
    Question on Almonds:

    I love almonds but I like a little variety. The smoke almonds are great but there is enough salt on them to limit your consumption. What about buying a bag of cooking almonds and doing this recipe I found without the salt. It should work right?:

    SMOKED ALMONDS

    1/2 tsp. liquid smoke
    2 tsp. water
    1 c. almonds
    1 tbsp. oil
    Salt (we would make without)

    Mix smoke and water. Then add almonds and mix well. Let stand overnight. Drain almonds and place in shallow pan. Add oil and toss until well coated. Roast in 300 degree oven for 25 minutes, stirring frequently. When golden, remove and sprinkle with salt. Yield: 1 cup.
    I'm fine with raw uncooked almonds and walnuts. What's in liquid smoke? Sounds like nasty stuff to me.

    I hear you on the variety though. This looks worth trying. Report back with your taste test!

  52. #52
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    Paleo diet and dedicated riding got me totally ripped....considering I was once 70lbs overweight, with a barrel gut and numerous heart problems.

    Now, I got a a six-pack and bulging veins everywhere. I'm perfectly happy with the lean look now...and so are the women.
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    What is the Paleo take on potatoes and rice? Go or no go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by _tom_
    What is the Paleo take on potatoes and rice? Go or no go?
    Unfortunately, potato and rice are products of the agricultural revolution. Certain exceptions are obviously the wild varieties of those products...which Neolithic man rarely ever had access to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by _tom_
    What is the Paleo take on potatoes and rice? Go or no go?
    In the original Paleo Diet these are no go.

    In the Paleo Diet for Athletes, these are acceptable.... But only during the activity or in the 'refueling window'. So grab these at aid stations or within the first hour after completing your event.

    If you are going Paleo, do not kid yourself. Because of the simple sugars here we should be talking about race/training events in the 2+ hour range. Anything else may just be or is just an excuse for low quality calories. Or in my case comfort foods

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    I love replacing rice with Quinnoa. How does that sit with the Paleo diet?

    For example my standard lunch is quinnoa,mixed veg and either chicken pieces or tuna.
    cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by pagey
    I love replacing rice with Quinnoa. How does that sit with the Paleo diet?

    For example my standard lunch is quinnoa,mixed veg and either chicken pieces or tuna.
    It seems acceptable post exercise/event but is otherwise not a paleo choice and to be avoided on a regular basis. Less grains lead to a lower acid load on our systems, and less Calcium leaving our bodies.

    Stosh
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    my problem with the Paleo concept and training:
    1) you're supposed to restrict carbon intake to during or after exercise.
    2) fat is very very bad (according to Paleo)

    so how I am I supposed to get in those additional 2000 to 4000 kcal per day? Eat three lbs of rice after training?

    However, I still think that Paleo is a great way for non-athletes to shed weight

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    I'm not sure where you heard #2 but that is way off the mark.

    The paleo diet encourages a high percentage of calories from fats, about 40% of daily calories. Of course you want to make sure this is "good fats" - monosaturated and omega-3 found in nuts, fish and "naturally" rasied animals - not omega-6 heavy processed veg oils, rancid PUFAs and trans-fats. The saturated fat issue is still up in the air.

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    AFAIK paleo diet actually has quite a high percentage of calories coming from fats.

    Paleo Diet for Athletes increases carbo amounts for workouts.

    Rice is NOT a paleo food.

    Besides that, your post was spot-on.

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    "trimming the fat off from meat" simply sounds a little bit paranoid to me. So when I pour over some fish-oil capsules it becomes healthy fat for its Omega-3 then?

    Rice is not Paleo but acceptable for post-exercise carbo refuelling though preference should be given to those alkaline carbos like potato. O.k. 4 lbs after training

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by quax
    "trimming the fat off from meat" simply sounds a little bit paranoid to me.
    Trimming the fat from meat has been a nutritional suggestion for decades. It's pretty much pure saturated fat, what else would you do with it? I know children enjoy eating it, just like they seem to love the skin on chicken (I used to), but as an athlete who is not specifically training to gain fat or increase my chance of cardiac arrest I can't imagine why you would think a nutritional suggestion as basic as trimming the fat would be paranoid.
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    I'm not a Paleo guy, at least not yet. But if you are eating that much more meat try buffalo or game meats like elk. They have less fat and cholesterol than chicken. Besides it fits with the Paleo concept, modern beef and poultry barely resemble anything that was a product of evolution: they have been bred for thousands of years to produce fatter cows and hens.

    What do you guys that do the paleo diet do for on bike food, honey or agave nectar?

  65. #65
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    I tend to mix my own trail mixes of beef jerky, various nuts like cashews and almonds, and dried fruits such as raisins and cranberries. I put them in wide mouth sports drink bottles to make eating while on the bike easier as well.
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  66. #66
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    I got the Paleo Diet for Athletes book yesterday. Hopefully I'll read a chunk of it this weekend.

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    Inspired by this thread, I'm reading Paleo Diet for Athletes, and have been eating 95% paleo for the last 10 days. I'm not riding much right now so I'm not having any of the extra carbs the "For Athletes" book discusses.
    For you experienced Paleo dieters, do you ever cheat a bit? Have a slice of bread, piece of cake at the office party? If so, how does it make you feel, given your body may no longer be conditioned or used to receiving such high GI foods? Energy followed by a crash? I think that is what I am experiencing now since I could not avoid the pumpkin bars at my office. Or am I imagining it?

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfxc
    Inspired by this thread, I'm reading Paleo Diet for Athletes, and have been eating 95% paleo for the last 10 days. I'm not riding much right now so I'm not having any of the extra carbs the "For Athletes" book discusses.
    For you experienced Paleo dieters, do you ever cheat a bit? Have a slice of bread, piece of cake at the office party? If so, how does it make you feel, given your body may no longer be conditioned or used to receiving such high GI foods? Energy followed by a crash? I think that is what I am experiencing now since I could not avoid the pumpkin bars at my office. Or am I imagining it?

    FWIW

    Try the 90% rule on your dieting plan: It's the 90-10 Rule for eating meals and snacks.

    Simply put, you are allowed to cheat 10% of the time with each of your feedings. A feeding is your meal or snack so if lets say you eat 3 small meals and 3 snacks each day, you'll have 6 feedings a day. That equals 42 feedings a week. So 10% of that is ~4 meals. So you're allowed to cheat on ~4 meals each week and still safely stick with the diet. This will keep your cheat foods in check while you are still focused on your diet. Use it for emergencies, holidays, eating out with friends/family, parties.

    good luck
    Last edited by roy harley; 11-12-2009 at 11:34 AM.

  69. #69
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    Yep, cheating provides that caloric "confusion" your body actually responds to by losing more fat. Always eating the same types of foods leads to a plateau effect. Throw this off by keeping your body guessing how many calories you will consume. Its an old bodybuilder trick...and it really WORKS.
    "Life is way too short to own anything crappy"

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    So the brownie I just ate, which is a significant departure from my low, all fruit/veggie carb diet, will confuse my body into burning more fat? That doesn't seem right, but i'm no expert. I appreciate the advice and encouragement in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfxc
    So the brownie I just ate, which is a significant departure from my low, all fruit/veggie carb diet, will confuse my body into burning more fat? That doesn't seem right, but i'm no expert. I appreciate the advice and encouragement in this thread.
    Better eat another, just to be safe.

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    I give myself 2-3 cheat meals a week. (I try for 2 but 3 is acceptable.) This actually helps me stick to it better because if cake is offered in the office I will usually turn it down for a burger and fries on friday night. I dont want to "waste" my cheat meals on something unless I really want it.
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti2424
    I tend to mix my own trail mixes of beef jerky, various nuts like cashews and almonds, and dried fruits such as raisins and cranberries. I put them in wide mouth sports drink bottles to make eating while on the bike easier as well.
    Isn't jerky usually high in salt, which seems to be one of those things to avoid/reduce in the book? Just wondering, I only just started reading it.

    I think a diet with less processed foods, and more fruits and vegetables is definitely healthier than what most people eat. But I think the "scientific basis" they sell it on, that early humans who ate these foods 20000 years ago didn't die of cancer or coronary problems, is flawed. Of course early humans didn't die of cancer or heart disease, these are generally diseases of old age, and the average life expectancy was only 30 years. If they had smoked 2 packs a day, they wouldn't have died of lung cancer either, because that doesn't usually set in till way after 30, but I wouldn't use that as a basis for advocating smoking. So, despite the flawed marketing, I'm still looking into this, and I will at least be implementing some ideas from it into my own diet, but I don't agree with the "paleo" reasons that they give for it being healthy.
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    But I think the "scientific basis" they sell it on, that early humans who ate these foods 20000 years ago didn't die of cancer or coronary problems, is flawed. Of course early humans didn't die of cancer or heart disease, these are generally diseases of old age, and the average life expectancy was only 30 years. If they had smoked 2 packs a day, they wouldn't have died of lung cancer either, because that doesn't usually set in till way after 30, but I wouldn't use that as a basis for advocating smoking. So, despite the flawed marketing, I'm still looking into this, and I will at least be implementing some ideas from it into my own diet, but I don't agree with the "paleo" reasons that they give for it being healthy.
    idk if you've read the whole book, but they did explain this some.

    a large reason the life expectancy was so low was because of an extremely high death rate for infants. apparently once people got through that, they tended to live for a very long time.

    if one paleo-guy lives until he's 60, and one paleo-kid dies a month into life....their average lifespan combined will be 30 years. that number doesn't do a great job representing health at mid-life of an average hominid 100,000 years ago.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomit
    idk if you've read the whole book, but they did explain this some.

    a large reason the life expectancy was so low was because of an extremely high death rate for infants. apparently once people got through that, they tended to live for a very long time.

    if one paleo-guy lives until he's 60, and one paleo-kid dies a month into life....their average lifespan combined will be 30 years. that number doesn't do a great job representing health at mid-life of an average hominid 100,000 years ago.
    You're right, I haven't read the whole book yet. Like I said, the diet itself appears sound, I guess I'll have to reserve judgement on the rest of it till I finish it. 30 does sound like a suspicously young age to die at. Just when you finally have some decent battle and hunting experience, whammo! you're dead? It will be interesting to do some more research on the subject.

    thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLd
    Isn't jerky usually high in salt, which seems to be one of those things to avoid/reduce in the book? Just wondering, I only just started reading it.

    I think a diet with less processed foods, and more fruits and vegetables is definitely healthier than what most people eat. But I think the "scientific basis" they sell it on, that early humans who ate these foods 20000 years ago didn't die of cancer or coronary problems, is flawed. Of course early humans didn't die of cancer or heart disease, these are generally diseases of old age, and the average life expectancy was only 30 years. If they had smoked 2 packs a day, they wouldn't have died of lung cancer either, because that doesn't usually set in till way after 30, but I wouldn't use that as a basis for advocating smoking. So, despite the flawed marketing, I'm still looking into this, and I will at least be implementing some ideas from it into my own diet, but I don't agree with the "paleo" reasons that they give for it being healthy.

    +1.
    You read any medical journal from that time, 21 000-11 000 BC, you will see there was lots of documentation and research going on at the time in more of the preventative medicines and the development of new pharma drugs that were............I personally feel there are great ideas to take from the paleo diet, there are lots of simple things that will help us live healthier in this diet. I also think there are other events that are just as important to think about too, like the development of processed foods in recent (evolution wise) years that have caused us to have to deal with a lot more weight issues. And we have jobs that lack the activity level we had to have back in the day to survive thousands of years ago.

    More diseases are being tracked in humans as our technology increases and our knowledge of the biochemistry of the body and gene tracking in our DNA grows. Itís really hard to say what would be the causes of death in our ancestors (did they live very long or not) that I don't know if archeologist can determine except for the environments that these people may have lived in. I have read that skeptics of the paleo and hunter-gatherer diets say, that to argue the points of these diets, that our distant ancestors were not optimized to live long except to reproduce and not much longer: their diets didnít need to protect them from diseases of middle or old age. So perhaps there could be things in the diets or they were eating from their environment that could have harmed them? Lots of open space to go ride anywhere you want! That is a problem I wish we had!

    In addition, our ancestors may have eaten drastically different diets during the time of the year and form month to month depending on where and when they lived (location, location, location). Lot of the diet is based on the lines of a alternating feasting and fasting, like our ancestors did during the mammoth hunts.

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    I've been eating mostly paleo for about 4 weeks now. The surprise for me has been how easy it has been to turn down cookies and cake and such.. I love sweets and carbs in general. I stay full, and don't miss the simple carbs. My sweet tooth isn't gone, but I feed it semi-sweet bakers chocolate when I want it. Most days I'm probably 90/10 and some days its more like 75/25 but in general I'm eating better and feeling better and i know I've dropped some fat around my middle already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abramsgunner
    I've been eating mostly paleo for about 4 weeks now. The surprise for me has been how easy it has been to turn down cookies and cake and such.. I love sweets and carbs in general. I stay full, and don't miss the simple carbs. My sweet tooth isn't gone, but I feed it semi-sweet bakers chocolate when I want it. Most days I'm probably 90/10 and some days its more like 75/25 but in general I'm eating better and feeling better and i know I've dropped some fat around my middle already.
    Well done!
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    Is the 10% rule on cheating from the book or just personal experience? Can beer count as a cheat meal? I really think this diet sounds great but I really don't want to give up beer completely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny K
    Ok, anyone who has started this...

    I think I have seen Friel or someone else advise to start this diet with breakfast for a few weeks then add lunch for a couple weeks then transition to full on Paleo. Any thoughts on whether to jump into this headlong or do a slow transition from your regular diet?

    *eating pizza rolls as i type this by the way
    I jumped in headlong. It was a fairly easy transition for me, though. All I had to cut out was cereal and pizza. I was fairly strict paleo until I started working out. Now, I eat brown/wild rice before I run and before I go to the gym.

    The way I eat now, is lots of leafy green veggies, two fruits/day, lean meats, and brown/wild rice. I'm not strict about paleo, and that's what makes it easy. If I want to eat bread or a slice of pizza or ice cream, I do it. The cravings for those types of food pop up ever few months, so it's not a big deal.

    I'm no chef, and paleo is easy for me to make edible food. I grill all my meats, and steam veggies, and make salads. It's easy, with no mixing crap together or multiple steps to prepare food, etc.

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    Michelob Ultra: 2.8g of carbs per bottle....

    Johnnydrz

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    Hey hdo_1975:

    In Paleo for Athletes, it is 95%-5%, so only 1-2 of a typical weeks 20-21 meals should include non-paleo foods. Yes Beer is allowed, but like the tasty non-paleo stuff its nice but does little to help your body, but may or will be of great benefit to your overall happiness.

    Non-Paleo is recommend otherwise only during and immediately post exercise or race.

    Stosh
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_co2
    Anyone notice a drop in energy levels when first starting?
    That is pretty typical with paleo, mainly from cutting out the carbs. I was like that for about a week, and then started to feel energetic again.

    Here's what I've noticed about my well being since January, which was when I went straight into strict paleo. The healthier food intake combined with exercise has allowed me to drop 40lbs, my blood pressure and cholesterol is back to very good levels. I sleep better, and have not been sick at all. My energy levels, while not seeming possible, are quite high.

    The down side to my change is that I am currently anemic. This isn't a result of paleo, but a result of me being lazy and not eating enough protein. I'm currently in the process of fixing the anemia.

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    so i've been sticking to this pretty good since reading the book about a month ago.

    one of the issues i've noticed is that my energy level takes a dump around 10:30am, like i come down from a red bull/monster energy high.

    i tend to do fruit smoothies for breakfast (7:30am)....banana/strawberry/blueberry/orange/avocado/flax seed, along with some scrambled eggs.

    too much fructose in the morning? theoretically the glycemic index/load of the fruit is moderate/low. for example the GI of strawberries is 40, with a GL of 1. orange has a GI of 42 and a GI of 5....vs. a bagel that has a GI of 70 and GL of over 20, or cornflakes...which are even higher. but i still seem to get a bigger 'crash' with what i'm doing now vs. eating a cinnamon raisin bagel, a banana and a glass of milk or bowl of cereal for breakfast.

    any explanations? or suggestions for other breakfast foods? should i make too much dinner and set some aside for breakfast the next morning to try to get some more meat/veggies in there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomit
    so i've been sticking to this pretty good since reading the book about a month ago.

    one of the issues i've noticed is that my energy level takes a dump around 10:30am, like i come down from a red bull/monster energy high.

    i tend to do fruit smoothies for breakfast (7:30am)....banana/strawberry/blueberry/orange/avocado/flax seed, along with some scrambled eggs.

    too much fructose in the morning? theoretically the glycemic index/load of the fruit is moderate/low. for example the GI of strawberries is 40, with a GL of 1. orange has a GI of 42 and a GI of 5....vs. a bagel that has a GI of 70 and GL of over 20, or cornflakes...which are even higher. but i still seem to get a bigger 'crash' with what i'm doing now vs. eating a cinnamon raisin bagel, a banana and a glass of milk or bowl of cereal for breakfast.

    any explanations? or suggestions for other breakfast foods? should i make too much dinner and set some aside for breakfast the next morning to try to get some more meat/veggies in there?
    Hey Nomit:

    You may be right about how fast the fructose hits your system. My breakfast is fruit based, just not a liquid. It is easier to eat a couple of apples, a banana and orange while getting the kids off to school and walking or biking them there so it takes a good 90 minutes to eat.

    On non school days, leftovers work real well.

    Maybe, you are just taking a little longer to adapt back to real food though.

    Anyway Good luck,

    Stosh
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    I just did a metric century + on my road race bike(117km/73 miles)...on just one banana, a can of Coke and a Clif Bar, without bonking. I love bananas, despite how non-Paleo it really is...
    "Life is way too short to own anything crappy"

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    does anyone on this diet realize that one of the most significant human evolutionary findings has been the discovery of rapid evolutionary changes within the last 5,000 years that make us more evolutionary distant to our paleo ancestors than they were to Neanderthals? The underlying assumptions of the paleo diet have been undermined by these recent genetic findings - these evolutionary changes relate mainly to dietary ones corresponding to agricultural innovations.

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    Stevesbike:

    So would these "rapid evolutionary changes within the last 5,000 years" allow me to eat grains and put more fiber and nutrients into them while I eat? Or would I still have to rely on the government to pressure industry to put the fiber and nutrients back in?

    What I have found while on this diet, by Stosh

    I feel better.
    I recover faster.
    I shop a lot faster, since I do not have to read any labels.
    I can save up my cheat foods for things I really like.
    Seriously I would rather eat cake made with enriched flour over a few slices of bread on either side of a slice of processed meat and "Cheese food" or "Cheese spread".
    YMMV of course.
    Fewer prepared foods in my fridge/cupboards means more room and money for cheats like Beer, Wine, Rum, JIM Daniels and Cider.
    Fewer prepared foods also means more money for bike bits.

    Stosh

    And before anyone thinks to corrects me, I know MR. Daniels really well.
    If you happen to see my lungs back there, tell them I've gone on ahead.

  89. #89
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    tried making/eating some almond pancakes. (1 cup almond flour, 1/4 cut coconut milk, 1 egg)

    they were terrible. unless massive amounts of maple syrup are allowed, i don't think i'll be trying them again.

    does anyone on this diet realize that one of the most significant human evolutionary findings has been the discovery of rapid evolutionary changes within the last 5,000 years that make us more evolutionary distant to our paleo ancestors than they were to Neanderthals? The underlying assumptions of the paleo diet have been undermined by these recent genetic findings - these evolutionary changes relate mainly to dietary ones corresponding to agricultural innovations.
    source please.

  90. #90
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    Stosh, the point is we are adapted for the so-called 'neolithic foods, including grains, beans, potatoes, and dairy. I never said anything about highly processed foods like cheese spread. The bigger point is that the paleo diet is based on a flawed assumption - there's no point in speculating about what our paleo ancestors ate because we do not resemble them in terms of our genetic dietary adaptations...

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnydrz
    Michelob Ultra
    That's not beer.

  92. #92
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    So far, I don't recall seeing any of us who have said we were 100% strict paleo and fully believe the premise of the diet. I think what we've done (at least I know I have) is taken the main aspects of paleo and created a healthy diet we can stick with. I didn't know there was a paleo for athletes; but, that seems to be where I fall into. I really don't like eating 1-2 servings of brown/wild rice 6 days a week, but it definitely gives me enough energy to complete my 3 cardio/run days and my 3 weight training days.

  93. #93
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    Hey stevesbike:

    Sure some of the global population is adapted to 'neolithic foods', but not all of us. I was NOT looking for a new diet when I started reading Paleo, I was looking for recipes and info on feeding my HIGHLY Lactose Intolerant newborn son as we weaned him.

    Somehow our third child decided that he would be very allergic to dairy, this was figured out while he was still breast feeding. (He scored a 15 on his prick test and was issued an EPI pen on the way out of his checkup).

    So in looking for ways to ensure he got a steady stream of Calcium from something other than the WESTERN (lifelong dairy) way. I ended up looking at Paleo and at a few other ways to eat as well.

    From what I understand there are a lot more people who genetically can not handle Dairy or Wheat than those who can, or at least choose to tolerate the discomfort. Lactose Intolerant, Celiacs.....

    Certainly our vegetables, fruits and meats are different then what was available Paleo. I still enjoy my comfort foods, far to often for my waist and weight.

    But I find that the Paleo idea works for ME. Sorry if I came across as snarky earlier, SmartAs yes, but no disrespect was intended to your beliefs.

    Stosh
    If you happen to see my lungs back there, tell them I've gone on ahead.

  94. #94
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    In the month or so since first reading about Paleo, I have significantly reduced the amount of grains I eat. I've gone from eating grains (always whole grains BTW) at every meal to maybe having grains 3 times in a week. I've lost 8 pounds and trimmed my waistline down.

    It wasn't the science of the diet that made me want to try it, but the results I read about in this thread.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by _tom_
    In the month or so since first reading about Paleo, I have significantly reduced the amount of grains I eat. I've gone from eating grains (always whole grains BTW) at every meal to maybe having grains 3 times in a week. I've lost 8 pounds and trimmed my waistline down.

    It wasn't the science of the diet that made me want to try it, but the results I read about in this thread.
    Wow! That's great! Congrats!

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    Yesterday was my first day on the Paleo Diet. Here is what I ate:

    Meal 1: One Egg, 2 Egg Whites scrambled with peppers and mushrooms
    Meal 2: One Pear, 1 oz of almonds
    Meal 3: Salad with grilled chicken, tomatos, cucumber, mushrooms, peppers and olive oil
    Meal 4: On Pear, 2 oz of almonds
    Meal 5: 3 oz Tuna - packed in sunflower oil/salad with peppers mushrooms and oil and vinegar

    How does that look - is sunflower oil allowed? The scale went down 3 pounds this morning - I know that is not all fat loss but it is motivation to keep the diet up. Can anyone else give me an example of a typical day on Paleo?

    Thanks.

  97. #97
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    that's like 1400 calories (unless you ate a huge amount of chicken for lunch that i'm not aware of). with nearly 500 calories coming from almonds (3 oz of almonds is a lot....its like 66 kernels. i eat a lot of almonds, but i don't think i've ever eaten that many in a day). if you're a decent sized male, and bike regularly....that's too much of a starvation diet, imho.

    here's one of my days...


    some of all that fruit was made into smoothies. chicken was stirfried w/ olive oil/onions/peppers/broccoli. and keeping in mind that i need 3000 calories a day to maintain/get stronger.

  98. #98
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    I just checked my almonds. They are 100 calorie packs. Each pack has .63 ounces. Do you know if sunflower oil is allowed on paleo? I would much rather eat the tuna in sunflower oil versus water if possible. I'm really focused on dropping some pounds right now but I hear you on calories. I don't want to starve myself even though I'm not riding a lot right now. Do you divide your daily intake into specific meals or do you eat when you are hungry? thanks.

  99. #99
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    i believe sunflower seeds/oil are a no-no. or at least limit them a great deal.

    one of the keys to paleo and having a healthy body in general is getting your omega-6's and omega-3 fatty acids in balance. typical american diet is very high in omega 6's, and low in omega 3's...which leads to heart disease, heart attacks, strokes, cancer...etc because of the way each one affects the blood/vessels/arteries/platelets. sunflower seeds (particularly oil, because its so condensed) are chalk full of omega 6's with almost no omega 3's.

  100. #100
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    nomit, what website or software program do you use to track your daily food intake? that dashboard/pic above looks interesting.

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