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  1. #1
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    LTHR Test Findings, Need Help

    Well I did my first LTHR feild test today. My findings were:
    LTHR 167
    My max HR is 185
    Does this sound about right?
    Because I am so new to all of this I of course am not thoroughly confident in my findings because I did it with a guy who is equally as new to these concepts as I. I believe I should do another test to see if I was correct and get an average of the two findings.
    I might do the second test on a spin bike at the rec. center.

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    I don't think it seems abnormal. My LTHR numbers are somewhere around 12-15 beats below my max. Being somewhat of a newbie at this, I have done maybe half a dozen tests and the numbers can vary. One poor test I was maybe 8 beats below my normal average, and I was actually in the pre-stages of getting sick.

    I would wait a few days, and redo the test and see how it compares. If it is a similar number, go with an average. Significantly different and you will have to do a third!

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    Quote Originally Posted by givati View Post
    Well I did my first LTHR feild test today. My findings were:
    LTHR 167
    My max HR is 185
    Does this sound about right?
    Because I am so new to all of this I of course am not thoroughly confident in my findings because I did it with a guy who is equally as new to these concepts as I. I believe I should do another test to see if I was correct and get an average of the two findings.
    I might do the second test on a spin bike at the rec. center.



    Perform the tests the same way as to not skew the results, apples to apples ya know. Fwiw the difference in your max and lthr is similar to mine.

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    i too did my first LTHR last weekend, got 151 which seems too low now that i am looking at yours. i guess i need to do another try.

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    How old are you? What is your level of fitness? I recommend Joe Friel's book Cyclist Training Bible (or something like that). It has some pages with HR zones that are very helpful. Multiple tests are helpful and paying attention to your breathing (using the talk tests) can help as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiRider View Post
    How old are you? What is your level of fitness? I recommend Joe Friel's book Cyclist Training Bible (or something like that). It has some pages with HR zones that are very helpful. Multiple tests are helpful and paying attention to your breathing (using the talk tests) can help as well.
    I do have the book. That's why and where I got the info I used to test. All his percentages are based on LTHR, so I figured I better get mine.
    I am 54. Been ridin 3-6 days a week. Consider my self in good fitness level. Wanna get better.

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    Those numbers sound consistent. Only advice I would say is to get a good warm up in before testing. I usually will ride anywhere from 45-60 mins to "wake up" my aerobic system before I test.

    On a side note, if you still have any cross races going on in your area, enter one in the 4's. You can race your mtb. They are usually only 30 mins and are wide open. Take your average hr from the race and that should confirm or deny if you are in the ballpark with your readings from your test.

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    I'm 23 years old and did a 10 minute warm up, then a 20 minute time trial to get my LTHR. It averaged out to 163 over the 20 minutes, so seems close to mine. Dang, I feel like mine should be a lot higher, being 20 years younger than you. I'd like to get up in the low 170's.

    I did my test on kreitler 2.25 rollers, so maybe it would have been higher if done on the road?...

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    I road for 35 min at 73% of max hr before starting TT.

    Now my question is:
    Do I set the LTHR as my max on my hr monitor and train to percentages of that?

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    I road for 35 min at 73% of max hr before starting TT.

    Now my question is:
    Do I set the LTHR as my max on my hr monitor and train to percentages of that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by givati View Post
    I road for 35 min at 73% of max hr before starting TT.

    Now my question is:
    Do I set the LTHR as my max on my hr monitor and train to percentages of that?



    You can base your zones on your LTHR, the zones being a percentage of LTHR:

    Ultracycling: Heart Rate Training Zones


    I would also add that LTHR seems to be a moving target, as fitness improves LTHR rises, so testing every once in a while and adjusting may be a good strategy.

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    ok, so the younger you are the higher LTHR shoud be? mine is way off than. guess i wasnt pushing hard enough.

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    Go ahead and set up your zones based on that LTHR, the results look in the "normal" ballpark. I wouldn't bother a retest. Just set your HR zones as the Race Bible outlines.

    Retest in a month. You're not going to do any "damage" if it is off by a couple of beats.

    I don't bother to test any more, but in the past when I did, it varied by a few beats depending on rest, weather, hydration, how fresh I was. But it was always between 170 - 175.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    ok, so the younger you are the higher LTHR shoud be? mine is way off than. guess i wasnt pushing hard enough.



    If you were not "toast" when you finished then it needs to be redone, do not leave anything on the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    ok, so the younger you are the higher LTHR shoud be? mine is way off than. guess i wasnt pushing hard enough.
    Not necessarily. Generally, younger riders might have a higher LTHR, but everyone is different. Some people have very low LTHR, but they still generate a lot power and go fast. It doesn't matter what the number is really.

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    i was going hard but was worried i will not last full test so i started and was pushing more and more towards the end of the test. at least it gave me idea how hard i need to go to for next test

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    Im an abnormal case, my HR is way higher than others my age with same level of fitness (Im 32 with intermediate to high level of fitness). I did the 20 min warm up followed by a 30 min "hard as I could" effort averaging the las 20 min of my HR. That led to a 187 LTHR... crazy uh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GS833 View Post
    Im an abnormal case, my HR is way higher than others my age with same level of fitness (Im 32 with intermediate to high level of fitness). I did the 20 min warm up followed by a 30 min "hard as I could" effort averaging the las 20 min of my HR. That led to a 187 LTHR... crazy uh?

    Not crazy. I usually average 184ish for races.

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    Heart rates vary greatly person to person and some people with years of good fitness don't see declines in their HR. I've know guys in their 40's who still have LT in mid 180's. It's more genetics than anything, the important thing is that how high or low it is isn't all that important, getting it measured accurately is important if you use HR Zones to dictate your training regiment and intensity.

    If your new to using HR as a metric to train with, also learn about RPE and record it along side your HR in your training journal. There are test you can do for RPE as well to get your metrics for each number.

    One test I read about was to start on a trainer with a way to measure cadence, speed, and time. A road bike is easier to work if you have the option. Warm up and start out around 10-12 mph at a cadence that's comfortable, 80 or so for most people unless you are an avid roadie and can sustain higher cadence with comfort. Increase by 1mph every 60-90 seconds and record the level of Perceived Exertion. I use a 20 point scale but there are others with less. Note the level of pain/ exertion required at each increase and have someone who can write down your responses.

    Granted RPE varies depending on a lot of variables but once you get a good idea of the different points on the scale you will start to learn more about your HR. HR can vary a lot depending on off the bike variables and RPE will help you keep things in perspective. It is also more apples to apples when talking with other people about intensities or training workouts. There are a lot of good articles out there about RPE and Friel talks about it as well in his books so finding info shouldn't be hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GS833 View Post
    Im an abnormal case, my HR is way higher than others my age with same level of fitness (Im 32 with intermediate to high level of fitness). I did the 20 min warm up followed by a 30 min "hard as I could" effort averaging the las 20 min of my HR. That led to a 187 LTHR... crazy uh?
    Not crazy, I average low 190's during most cx races for 60mins and mid 180s for mtb races. I'm 30 and have noticed no change, other than fitness levels in my LTHR, in my HR over the last 5 years.

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    Thanks! I guess Im not that strange after all

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    Interesting thread. I had to have an echocardiogram/stress test done last summer and maxed at 178 during the treadmill test (was really going balls to the wall). However, on several occasions in the weeks surrounding that test I got my HR up to 191-192 while riding and I didn't even feel like I was blowing up.

    In regards the differences from individual to individual, my cousin (a roadie) and I did an easy 6hr ride together - his average HR was 101 whereas mine was 142.

    I ended up setting my zones according to the popular formulas out there which all put me at 184-185

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    If you're new to LtHR testing I would recommend getting a lab test done, where they can measure your HR, power, expelled breath composition, and possibly blood. Can usually be done at a local university or a coach with test equipment. the test isn't super expensive, and you'll get a positive fix on your RPE for the next field test.

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    29ftw I had a stess test done a couple years ago when I was immature about over training, they only took me up to around 180 something and I felt I could definitely go a lot harder. I think hospitals test based on normal standardized data and liabilities. Universities with sport medicine programs that do studies on athletes and coaches who work with high level athletes understand the differences and you are more likely to get more real world reading from them than a hospital imo.

    Then again, most retail HR monitors are not extremely accurate and I have heard can vary 10+/- beats from system to system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crosstown Stew View Post
    29ftw I had a stess test done a couple years ago when I was immature about over training, they only took me up to around 180 something and I felt I could definitely go a lot harder. I think hospitals test based on normal standardized data and liabilities. Universities with sport medicine programs that do studies on athletes and coaches who work with high level athletes understand the differences and you are more likely to get more real world reading from them than a hospital imo.

    Then again, most retail HR monitors are not extremely accurate and I have heard can vary 10+/- beats from system to system.
    Interesting. I had not been running at all in recent years when I had the test and I definitely could not have gone any harder - in fact, they tried to get to go for a couple more min and I was toast.

    In addition to your comment on accuracy, another annoying issue is the lag. I can get to the top of a short climb and my HR is reflecting my effort from 1-2min earlier!

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    So this thread got me thinking. My last test for LTHR was early Summer and it was at 169 bpm, from a recent Cyclocross race, I averaged 176 bpm for 45 minutes. Did my LTHR go up this much? Or maybe doing a test on a trainer isn't the same chasing people down, and worried about people passing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mooddude View Post
    So this thread got me thinking. My last test for LTHR was early Summer and it was at 169 bpm, from a recent Cyclocross race, I averaged 176 bpm for 45 minutes. Did my LTHR go up this much? Or maybe doing a test on a trainer isn't the same chasing people down, and worried about people passing?
    Racing and an LT test are very different. The highest LT power will yield the lowest LT HR. Think about it. What things need to happen during an LT test that will yield the highest power?? Typically:
    -Flattest power output
    -Little gear changes; mostly switching between 2 gears
    -Little to no time out of the saddle
    -Very steady effort.

    But you can artificially create a higher HR during an LTHR test by doing all the opposite:
    -Changing power often
    -spiking hard and coasting, spiking hard again and coasting
    -Getting out of the saddle long and hard, then coasting
    -Then HR will stay high because of HR lag, even during moments of zero pedaling/zero power.

    Therefore a good LTHR test has to be very steady, mostly seated, with few gear changes, and steady RPM (85-95).
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poncharelli View Post
    Racing and an LT test are very different. The highest LT power will yield the lowest LT HR. Think about it. What things need to happen during an LT test that will yield the highest power?? Typically:
    -Flattest power output
    -Little gear changes; mostly switching between 2 gears
    -Little to no time out of the saddle
    -Very steady effort.

    But you can artificially create a higher HR during an LTHR test by doing all the opposite:
    -Changing power often
    -spiking hard and coasting, spiking hard again and coasting
    -Getting out of the saddle long and hard, then coasting
    -Then HR will stay high because of HR lag, even during moments of zero pedaling/zero power.

    Therefore a good LTHR test has to be very steady, mostly seated, with few gear changes, and steady RPM (85-95).
    +1

    I first did friel's field test on very hilly course. Even though I knew it was not best (I live in foot hills so flats are hard to find) it was 189bpm for the 20min ave.
    Re did the test on flats and got 182. So yeah the hills do create a higher hr spike that carries over due to the lag affect. Trying to pass someone when your racing is going to have same affect.

    Also. Your lt threshold will not change much with increased fitness. But the out-put power,speed & distance covered will increase with fitness.
    .....the end

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    Ok. Rather than starting a new thread I'll ask this here.
    I'm a bit confused concerning zone training. Because I'm so new to this I'm having difficulty grasping all the info.
    How long, and how often does one use or stay in a given zone. I know that's a loaded question. For instance:
    My ride yesterday.
    30 min. 75% av.
    3 x 3min at 105% with 4 min. Recovery
    20 min at 92%
    Not including warm ups and cool downs.
    Is there a resource that gives specific daily breakdowns of training rides?
    Oh ya, the times and percentages above are estimates. My hr monitor does not record different zones separately.
    Last edited by givati; 01-06-2012 at 07:30 AM.

  30. #30
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    You can find a lot about zone training on Joe Friel's blog: Joe Friel

    Heart rate training is all about periodization. So It all depends on what part of your season your in to determine which kind of zone training you want to be doing.

    Examples of segments of training include: base training, build period, peak training, recovery training, tapering. etc...

    If you can look for these key words throughout your research you'll notice the different training styles for each segment. You'll see a lot of these "key" words on the Joe Friel link I posted above.

    To kind of give you a start: My first XC race of the 2012 season is in April. So right now I'm on my 2nd to last week of "Base 1" training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poncharelli View Post
    Racing and an LT test are very different. The highest LT power will yield the lowest LT HR. Think about it. What things need to happen during an LT test that will yield the highest power?? Typically:
    -Flattest power output
    -Little gear changes; mostly switching between 2 gears
    -Little to no time out of the saddle
    -Very steady effort.

    But you can artificially create a higher HR during an LTHR test by doing all the opposite:
    -Changing power often
    -spiking hard and coasting, spiking hard again and coasting
    -Getting out of the saddle long and hard, then coasting
    -Then HR will stay high because of HR lag, even during moments of zero pedaling/zero power.

    Therefore a good LTHR test has to be very steady, mostly seated, with few gear changes, and steady RPM (85-95).
    Thanks, that is what I was thinking. Yet, someone above posted to do a CX race for a LTHR test. This has got me to schedule another test since it has been so long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by givati View Post
    Ok. Rather than starting a new thread I'll ask this here.
    I'm a bit confused concerning zone training. Because I'm so new to this I'm having difficulty grasping all the info.
    How long, and how often does one use or stay in a given zone. I know that's a loaded question. For instance:
    My ride yesterday.
    30 min. 75% av.
    3 x 3min at 105% with 4 min. Recovery
    20 min at 92%
    Not including warm ups and cool downs.
    Is there a resource that gives specific daily breakdowns of training rides?
    Oh ya, the times and percentages above are estimates. My hr monitor does not record different zones separately.
    You are asking some big questions that would take a lot of typing to answer. Basically you should only be in the super hard effort area a small amount of time for any given week (if we use a week as a "block" or segment of training.) It also totally depends on the time of the season. In base, I wouldn't do more than a few minutes per week in the harder zones 4 and 5.

    I assume you are basing you % above on your LTHR? If yes, it looks like you are spending 9 minutes in zone 5ish, and 20 minutes in probably zone 4. That is a lot of work, depending on what time of the season you are in. In early base, I would not be in those zones at all. That would be more of a Build or Race time of season ride.

    But this really all depends on what approach you want, if you do the Friel approach of Base, Build, Peak, Race. Or some guys do a higher intensity approach, all season, usually far less volume, but more intensity to try to get a higher training load.

    So as you see, it really all depends on your approach or what "system" or style you choose to train with.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by givati View Post
    Ok. Rather than starting a new thread I'll ask this here.
    I'm a bit confused concerning zone training. Because I'm so new to this I'm having difficulty grasping all the info.
    How long, and how often does one use or stay in a given zone. I know that's a loaded question. For instance:
    My ride yesterday.
    30 min. 75% av.
    3 x 3min at 105% with 4 min. Recovery
    20 min at 92%
    Not including warm ups and cool downs.
    Is there a resource that gives specific daily breakdowns of training rides?
    Oh ya, the times and percentages above are estimates. My hr monitor does not record different zones separately.
    In terms of total time in particular zones that depends upon what your training plan and aims are. It's something which different people have competing views on and tends to vary every few years. Different trainers and books on the subject all have their own preferences. A classic periodisation plan would be to do lots of steady mileage during the winter, and then introduce higher intensity intervals at shorter durations as you near your target events. You also have other viewpoints, such as the one that focusing on HIT (High Intensity Training) and doing less volume is more effective. See the book excerpts in this post for example.

    2011 - Who upgraded and what are you doing to prepare?

    When you're riding outdoors it's difficult to stay exactly in a narrow training zone. You can try to keep your heart rate within a particular range but factors such as changing gradients, getting stuck in traffic etc mean it's unlikely to ever be perfect. Training zones tend to be something to aim for, rather than an exact thing that you rigidly stick to.

    On longer sustained efforts, such as a 20 minute interval, you should be aiming to stay close to the heart rate zone you're targeting. The time in zone really depends upon your route though. In general you'll find that it's easier to spend more time in a specific training zone riding indoors than outdoors. The hillier the route the harder it is to keep the heart rate in a specific training zone. If you're aiming for a constant effort but do 10 minutes riding up a steep hill, followed by a 10 minute descent, then your heart rate is unlikely to spend much time in a single target zone. It will probably be above target zone for the climb and then below target zone for the descent. If you do the same 20 minutes on a flat road then you'd expect to see a more constant heart rate. Indoors on a stationary bike, where the effort is less variable, you should be able to stay within a set heart rate zone consistently.

    I've attached a picture showing what heart rate looks like over a 2 hour road ride. The heart rate trace appears fairly jumpy as the amount of effort required varied depending on the terrain. The coloured training zones are overlaid so you can see that I was roughly within the green "moderate intensity" target zone overall for most of the ride. At about the 1h30 mark I lifted the pace as high as I could for the final climb and last section on the way home, as shown by the rise in heart rate.

    Heart rate is a lagging indicator. If you're doing short three minute intervals for example there will always be a delay between beginning the interval and your heart rate responding. For shorter intervals it's better to ignore the heart rate monitor reading and just go as hard as you can. The picture below shows my heart rate for a 4 minute interval. You can see how it takes 30 seconds before the red heart rate trace responds, even though the yellow power trace shows that I'm trying hard from the very start of the 4 minutes.

    Pictured below: Heart rate time in zones over a 2 hour road ride.

    Heart rate response during a 4 minute interval
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails LTHR Test Findings, Need Help-heart_rate_pacing_2hr_ride.jpg  

    LTHR Test Findings, Need Help-power_4min_interval.jpg  

    Last edited by WR304; 01-06-2012 at 09:40 AM.

  34. #34
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    I was afraid this. This is kind of why I've given up on Friel's book "Training Bible". I basically understand all the info but, my problem is I have know idea where im am in the process. Up until I decided to get "serious" about training (3 weeks ago) I simply road. As often as I could and as hard as I could. I never stopped. 4,5,6 days a week, 1,2,3 hours at a time. No hr monitor, no LTHR, no periodization. My ridin partner and i are just balls out all the time.
    I'm afraid to ask this . . . . . Do I need to step back and start over? Or can I have somehow figure out where I'm at and go forward?
    Oh, and riding indoor is not an option. I just sold my trainer because of my spin class efforts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GS833 View Post
    Im an abnormal case, my HR is way higher than others my age with same level of fitness (Im 32 with intermediate to high level of fitness). I did the 20 min warm up followed by a 30 min "hard as I could" effort averaging the las 20 min of my HR. That led to a 187 LTHR... crazy uh?
    I'm another fellow biker with a hamster heart.
    age: 37
    LTHR: 182
    Max HR: 202

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    reading your post it sounds exactly as my situation. even those 3 weeks
    would like to know the answer too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by givati View Post
    I was afraid this. This is kind of why I've given up on Friel's book "Training Bible". I basically understand all the info but, my problem is I have know idea where im am in the process. Up until I decided to get "serious" about training (3 weeks ago) I simply road. As often as I could and as hard as I could. I never stopped. 4,5,6 days a week, 1,2,3 hours at a time. No hr monitor, no LTHR, no periodization. My ridin partner and i are just balls out all the time.
    I'm afraid to ask this . . . . . Do I need to step back and start over? Or can I have somehow figure out where I'm at and go forward?
    Oh, and riding indoor is not an option. I just sold my trainer because of my spin class efforts.
    Well, that is also not easy for anyone to answer. (Where you are at.) The way you were riding as outlined above, I am guessing you were probably in a perpetual state of never recovered, so probably on a fitness plateau of sorts. But don't worry, that is how most of go about it at some point.

    I probably wouldn't assume or guess that I am actually at (or try guess at a Build level & start a program from there). Why not start out with Base? It's not a bad thing.

    First off, how do you feel? Do you feel kinda burnt out in any way?

    One of the most important things to do is LISTEN to your body.

    I wouldn't worry about it too much, but being January, I would basically start out with Base, follow the program consistently & see where you end up. It also all depends if you have any goals, or events you want to Peak for too.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by givati View Post
    I was afraid this. This is kind of why I've given up on Friel's book "Training Bible". I basically understand all the info but, my problem is I have know idea where im am in the process. Up until I decided to get "serious" about training (3 weeks ago) I simply road. As often as I could and as hard as I could. I never stopped. 4,5,6 days a week, 1,2,3 hours at a time. No hr monitor, no LTHR, no periodization. My ridin partner and i are just balls out all the time.
    I'm afraid to ask this . . . . . Do I need to step back and start over? Or can I have somehow figure out where I'm at and go forward?
    Oh, and riding indoor is not an option. I just sold my trainer because of my spin class efforts.
    Probably the easiest way to decide where you're at would be to base it on the calendar. Say that you began seriously on 01 January 2012, tell yourself this is the year where you achieve your goals and go from there.

    Although there are lots of different ideas about how to put it all together, some more complicated than others, there are a few basic things to remember:

    1. Keep it enjoyable. Riding a bike is all about having fun which is something that is easy to forget if you're trying to stick to a rigid training schedule.

    2. Training works on the overload principle. You don't get fitter whilst you're actually riding, your fitness improves when you're resting as your body adapts to the stresses of training. Riding hard all the time without enough recovery time can be counter productive. It's important to eat well and take the time to recover. The diagram below is an illustration of the process. A schedule such as training hard for three weeks and then having an easier recovery week provides a safety valve. The regular recovery week means that you're less likely to overdo it and burn out.

    3. It takes time. As you get fitter the fitness gains from training gradually slow down and you can end up plateauing. When that happens try mixing up your training with different workouts to encourage your body to respond.

    Some other training books you may want to read also:

    Performance Cycling : Training for Power, Endurance, and Speed by David Morris
    Amazon.com: Performance Cycling : Training for Power, Endurance, and Speed (9780071410915): David Morris: Books

    The Time-Crunched Cyclist: Fit, Fast, and Powerful in 6 Hours a Week by Chris Carmichael
    Amazon.com: The Time-Crunched Cyclist: Fit, Fast, and Powerful in 6 Hours a Week (The Time-Crunched Athlete) (9781934030479): Chris Carmichael, Jim Rutberg: Books

    Pictured below:
    The basic principles of training - First you train to provide a stimulus, you then rest and whilst you rest your body adapts and becomes fitter, increasing performance.

    TORQ LTD, TORQ performance resource
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails LTHR Test Findings, Need Help-training_theory_torq.jpg  


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    I really appreciate all the patients you all are displaying with such a noob. Really. And I know I am not asking easy questions nor questions that have only one answer to. I just don't have anyone else I can ask.

    Only once in the last 3 weeks have I felt fatigued. One day after riding with 3 giant climbs my legs felt shot so I backed off and made it a recovery ride. Stayed at about 65% of LTHR. That was the only time. I get plenty of days off this time of year.
    I guess Its hard for me to go to a total base training mode because when its below 40 degrees I usually only go to a spin class 3 days a week which is anything but base training. Its usually an hour at threshold levels.
    Now here is the million dollar question, If I don't go back to a base training mode will I become less fit or will I just not reach my full potential? I think I already know the answer to this.

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    you wont reach your full potential, is the school of thought I believe. Your not racing though, correct? So you really have no reason to peak at any certain time of year. Keep the spin class, and when the weather is half ok, get some longer base rides in until the weather gets good enough to do real base work.

    Or, you could try something like this...
    http://www.bicycling.com/training-nu...-all-year-long
    Last edited by Fakie1999; 01-06-2012 at 08:53 PM.

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    My coach told me that LT hr does not change much over your years of training. I took it to mean that it has a lot to do with genetics. He said that what is more important that what you LThr is, is how much power you are producing at LT.
    Angie
    Check out my website!

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    in the linked article, in schedule for first two weeks, what does 3x8 SS mean? SS is not explained in the key.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cavo View Post
    in the linked article, in schedule for first two weeks, what does 3x8 SS mean? SS is not explained in the key.
    ss - Steady State Intervals
    here is the link to Carmichael's terms

    Carmichael Training Systems: A glossary of workout terms | Active.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fakie1999 View Post
    you wont reach your full potential, is the school of thought I believe. Your not racing though, correct? So you really have no reason to peak at any certain time of year. Keep the spin class, and when the weather is half ok, get some longer base rides in until the weather gets good enough to do real base work.

    Or, you could try something like this...
    Carmichael's Yearlong Cycling Training Plan | Bicycling Magazine
    Thanks so much for posting this link. This is what I've been waiting for. WR304 also posted links to Carmichael. This is the rout I believe I need. I am Syked!

    One question I have with info:
    Carmichael says,
    "If you're new to cycling or haven't trained in more than a year, do six weeks of low-to moderate-intensity riding before starting your first build. If you've been off the bike for only six to 12 months, start with three or four weeks of easy riding.

    My questions is what if you're like me and have not been off yer bike at all? Should I simply jump into Carmichael's six week training schedule?

    Oh ya, one more thing. In Carmichael's six week training schedule he uses RPE as the base line for exertion. Is there any data that links RPE to percentages of LTHR?

  45. #45
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    check out this link, click on LTHR zone calculator, plug in your LTHR, it shows how it relates to RPE

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    you rock!

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    not sure i understand over unders from the description
    3x9 minutes OU (2 under, 1 over), 6 minutes RBI
    it means i do 3 times 9 minute interval of 3min under, 3mins over than 3 mins under? and than 6 mins rest?
    or is it 3 times interval consisting of 9min under 9mins over 9 mins under and than rest?

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    My guess , and its just a guess is 9 min under, 9 min over, 9 min under, 6 min recover. X 3

    My question is if the under intensity is RPE 7 and the EM is also RPE 7 what's the difference between the EM and the under part of the interval?

    Cavort, are we noobs or what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cavo View Post
    not sure i understand over unders from the description
    3x9 minutes OU (2 under, 1 over), 6 minutes RBI
    it means i do 3 times 9 minute interval of 3min under, 3mins over than 3 mins under? and than 6 mins rest?
    or is it 3 times interval consisting of 9min under 9mins over 9 mins under and than rest?
    I have been trying to figure that out also. He also says the it always ends with a period of over. And, on the experienced competitor, he says 4x6 minutes OU (2U, 10), 5 minutes RBI.

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    if that is true it seems like quite a long workout for time crunched cyclist. per schedule 120min EM with over unders that take over 90 mins. so together over 3.5 hours. or is it so time dedicated to overunders and intensity is included within those EM?

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    I think its 2 minutes under, 1 minute over, repeated for 9 minutes. Do 3 sets, with 6 minutes rest between sets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fakie1999 View Post
    I think its 2 minutes under, 1 minute over, repeated for 9 minutes. Do 3 sets, with 6 minutes rest between sets.

    And I am sure these 3x9s are included in the EM times correct?
    And again, the RPE is the same for the EM and the under portion of the interval. How does that work?

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavo View Post
    not sure i understand over unders from the description
    3x9 minutes OU (2 under, 1 over), 6 minutes RBI
    it means i do 3 times 9 minute interval of 3min under, 3mins over than 3 mins under? and than 6 mins rest?
    or is it 3 times interval consisting of 9min under 9mins over 9 mins under and than rest?
    The Carmichael Over Under intervals are made up of two minutes below threshold, followed by one minute above threshold. That's then repeated three times per 9 minute interval. Have a look at this thread.

    http://forums.roadbikereview.com/rac...lp-244047.html

    Carmichael Training Systems commented on their Wall post.
    Carmichael Training Systems wrote: "The second line is correct. It's 2min Under, 1min Over, 2min Under, 1min Over, and so forth through the end of the interval."
    It's not very clear at all from the book or that article though. I'd guess that the second edition of The Time Crunched Cyclist book might include an expanded section on the different training zones.

    The key for that article is a shortened version of 8 pages of description in the Time Crunched Cyclist book.

    Over Under Intervals refer to individual minutes. That interval set would consist of 3 intervals of 9 minutes each with 6 minutes rest between each interval. Each 9 minute interval is then broken down into 1 minute at Steady State Interval pace, followed by followed by 1 Minute Steady State Interval pace then 1 minute at Climbing Repeat Pace repeated 3 times. It's really an Under Over Interval as the highest intensity is always done last.

    i.e: a 9 minute interval would be: (1min SS, 1min SS, 1min CR) (1min SS, 1min SS, 1min CR) (1min SS, 1min SS, 1min CR)

    This is part of a 90 minute ride so you would spend 45 minutes doing intervals and the remaining 45 minutes riding at your Endurance Miles pace. Intervals are always included within the total ride time. Here's how that ride would appear:

    - 20 minutes riding at your Endurance Miles pace RPE:5 (warmup)

    - Interval 1: 9 minutes total (2 minutes Steady State Interval, 1 minute at a higher intensity Climbing Repeat Interval) repeated 3 times
    - 6 minutes rest spinning gently
    - Interval 2: 9 minutes total (2 minutes Steady State Interval, 1 minute at a higher intensity Climbing Repeat Interval) repeated 3 times
    - 6 minutes rest spinning gently
    - Interval 3: 9 minutes total (2 minutes Steady State Interval, 1 minute at a higher intensity Climbing Repeat Interval) repeated 3 times
    - 6 minutes rest spinning gently

    - 25 minutes Endurance Miles pace RPE:5 (cooldown)

    Total Ride Time is 90 Minutes, although you could always shorten the Endurance Miles sections in order to fit the same workout into a 60 minute ride.

    "OverUnder Intervals

    Training Intensities for OverUnders
    RPE: 9
    HR: 92-94% (Under) of highest CTS Field Test average alternating with 95-97% (Over)
    Power 86-90% (Under) of highest CTS Field Test average alternating with 95-100% (Over)

    OverUnder Intervals are a more advanced form of Steady State Intervals. The "Under" intensity is your Steady state range, and the "Over" intensity is your Climbing Repeat range. By alternating between these two intensity levels during a sustained interval, you develop the "agility" to handle changes in pace during hard, sustained efforts. More specifically, the harder surges within the interval generate more lactate in your muscles, and then you force your body to process this lactate while you're still riding at a relatively high intensity. This workout can be performed on a flat road, rolling hills, or a sustained climb that's relatively gradual (3 to 6 percent grade). It is difficult to accomplish this workout on a steep climb, because the pitch often makes it difficult to control your effort level. Your gearing should be moderate, and pedal cadence should be high (90 rpm or higher) if you're riding on flat ground or small rollers. Pedal cadence should be above 85rpm if you're completing the intervals on a gradual climb.
    To complete the interval, bring your intensity up to your Steady State range during the first 45 to 60 seconds. Maintain this heart rate intensity for the prescribed Under time and then increase your intensity to your Over intensity for the prescribed time. At the end of this Over time, return to your Under intensity range and continue at this level of effort until it's once again time to return to your Over intensity. Continue alternating this way until the end of the interval.
    OverUnder Intervals always end with a period of Over intensity. Recovery periods between intervals are typically about half the length of the work interval. Note: A more advanced version of this interval would alternate between Steady State and PowerInterval intensities instead of Steady State and Climbing Repeat intensities."
    Pages 119-120 The Time Crunched Cyclist By Chris Carmichael

    "Steady State Intervals (Under Section of Interval)

    Training Intensities for Steady State
    RPE: 7
    HR: 92-94% of highest CTS Field test Average
    Power: 86-90% of Highest CTS Field test average

    These intervals are great for increasing a cyclist's maximum sustainable power because the intensity is below lactate threshold but close to it. As you accumulate time at this intensity, you are forcing your body to deal with a lot of lactate for a relatively prolonged period of time. Steady State intervals are best performed on flat roads or small, rolling hills. If you end up doing them on a sustained climb, you should really bump the intensity up to Climbing Repeat range, which reflects the grade's added contribution to your effort. Do your best to complete these intervals without interruptions from stoplights and so on, and maintain a cadence of 85 to 95 rpm. Maintaining the training zone intensity is the most important factor, not pedal cadence. Steady State intervals are meant to be slightly below your individual time trial pace, so don't make the mistake of riding at your time trial pace during the. Recovery time between Steady State intervals is typically about half the length of the interval itself.

    Climbing Repeats (Over section of Interval)

    Training Intensities for Climbing Repeats
    RPE:8
    HR: 95-97% of highest CTS Field Test average
    Power: 95-100% of highest CTS Field Test average

    This workout should be performed on a road with a long steady climb. The training intensity is designed to be similar to that of a Steady State interval but reflect the additional workload necessary to ride uphill. The intensity is just below your lactate threshold power and/ or heart rate, and it is critical that you mainatin this intensity for the length of the Climbing Repeat. Pedal cadence for Climbing Repeat intervals while climbing should be 70 to 85 rpm. Maintaining the training intensity is the most important factor, not pedal cadence. It is very important to avoid interruptions while doing these intervals. recovery time is typically about half the length of the interval itself. This interval is not used as a standalone training intensity in the TCTP, but it is used as a component of the OverUnder Intervals."
    Pages 115-116 The Time Crunched Cyclist By Chris Carmichael

    Pictured below: Borg Scale of Perceived Exertion
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by WR304; 01-08-2012 at 01:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by givati View Post
    And I am sure these 3x9s are included in the EM times correct?
    And again, the RPE is the same for the EM and the under portion of the interval. How does that work?
    The RPE for the under portion is training your body to recover, while still working. So you would go up to or over threshold for 2 minutes, then recover just under threshold for one minute. I could be wrong though. I'm not an expert at intervals, since I dont really do them. I've only done 1x1's. I usually just do terrain based intervals (attack the climbs).

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    WR 304
    Are the HR's listed on your post percentages of LT or Max HR? I'm not familiar with CTS . Basically I'm trying to bridge Carmichael and Friel so when I do the intervals you've brought forth here I want to use my HR monitor rather than the RPE scale. I'm one of those black and white guys.

    I didn't know about Carmichael's book before I bought Friel's. I would have bought that one instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by givati View Post
    WR 304
    Are the HR's listed on your post percentages of LT or Max HR? I'm not familiar with CTS . Basically I'm trying to bridge Carmichael and Friel so when I do the intervals you've brought forth here I want to use my HR monitor rather than the RPE scale. I'm one of those black and white guys.

    I didn't know about Carmichael's book before I bought Friel's. I would have bought that one instead.
    it says "field test average" so that would be % of LTHR. CTS is Carmichael Training Systems.

    Carmichael Training Systems

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fakie1999 View Post
    it says "field test average" so that would be % of LTHR. CTS is Carmichael Training Systems.

    Carmichael Training Systems
    "Field Test Average" I would assume is the same as the Friel 20 minute average.

    The CTS test is 2 10 minute intervals, and taking the highest HR of the 2 I believe.

    I have been trying to convert to Friel, and it looks like the "under" would be Friel zone 3, and the over zone 4, since the text says 95-97% LTHR

    I am only assuming that the "Endurance miles" pace is Friel zone 2?

    Would this workout fall into a Friel M1 or M2 interval? It appears to be in the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonw9 View Post
    "Field Test Average" I would assume is the same as the Friel 20 minute average.

    The CTS test is 2 10 minute intervals, and taking the highest HR of the 2 I believe.

    I have been trying to convert to Friel, and it looks like the "under" would be Friel zone 3, and the over zone 4, since the text says 95-97% LTHR

    I am only assuming that the "Endurance miles" pace is Friel zone 2?

    Would this workout fall into a Friel M1 or M2 interval? It appears to be in the middle.
    I've been trying to convert all this info as well. However going the other direction, Friel to Car. I'm seeing the zones are much higher than what your stating because of the RPE Carmichael attaches to each.

    His EM is at an RPE of 7. according to the link below that puts the EM at Zone 4 94% to 99% of LTHR

    The Under RPE 7 also at zone 4.
    The over at RPE 9 at zone 5b 103% to 106% of LTHR

    Am I correct?

    Damn this is confusing!



    MTBCOACH.COM Zone Calculator

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by givati View Post
    WR304
    Are the HR's listed on your post percentages of LT or Max HR? I'm not familiar with CTS . Basically I'm trying to bridge Carmichael and Friel so when I do the intervals you've brought forth here I want to use my HR monitor rather than the RPE scale. I'm one of those black and white guys.

    I didn't know about Carmichael's book before I bought Friel's. I would have bought that one instead.
    Note that Endurance Miles is a Perceived Exertion of 5 in the Time Crunched Cyclist Book, rather than 7. It looks like a possible typo in that Bicycling article.

    Different authors use different training zones. You have to be careful about that. Different test protocols also mean you're likely to end up with slightly different results so you're probably better off re-testing. The 8 minute time trial Carmichael test is apparently to find roughly your Lactate Threshold Heart Rate plus about 10%.

    Have a look at this Carmichael Training Systems PDF file which describes the Carmichael test protocol and also sets out the different training zones. This PDF is exactly the same wording as in the Time Crunched Cyclist Book.

    http://www.trainright.com/assets/dow...ptions2010.pdf

    When you're doing intervals with constant short changes in intensity like these Over Under intervals, especially outdoors, you're basically going to be riding them on perceived exertion anyway. It isn't easy to get them so you have clearly defined under and over sections with a heart rate monitor or power meter. With a heart rate monitor you have to consider the lag between effort and heart rate response (see the interval graph in Post #33)

    If you look at the table below this was my attempt at 3x9 minute Over Under Intervals today. This was on the road rather than on a turbo trainer. The results don't look great as I was consistently undershooting the Over section of the interval but they certainly felt hard at the time. I lost count on the second interval which is why the Over Under parts don't line up.

    You'd have laughed today. After doing these intervals for the first hour down the A38 I turned off to head back through the hills for the next few hours. Only to be caught by someone on a road bike out for a long ride who'd ridden over from Wales (he was doing about a 100 mile round trip). I managed to stay with him for a bit but when the proper climbing began that was it. Dropped instantly. Clearly I need to do more intervals...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails LTHR Test Findings, Need Help-over_under_intervals_08-01-2012.jpg  


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    thanks for that correction of RPE. That really clarifies things.
    That EM at 7 RPE seemed quite rough along with the over and unders. Actually, the other day when I tried my first intervals I did return to my house with a 20 min. EM of zone 4, RPE of about 7. It was tough.

    I really need to get Carmichael"s book. But thanks so much for helping me and providing me with these resources.

    I might add because of the last experience you related. I had a similar experience last fall. That's why I've started training.
    Haha I totally know the feeling. I bet most know it as well. Except maybe Lance. lol
    I watched last summer as A. Schleck in the USA Pro Cycling Challenge here in Colorado was dropped hard in one of the stages. Happens to everyone.

  62. #62
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    Have a look at this article on the subject of training time.

    How Much Time Do You *Really* Need to Be Fit? | Innovation for Endurance

    When doing Over Under intervals it seems to work best if you try and anticipate the Over sections by lifting the pace to your target about 5-10 seconds before the start of the Over minute. It gives a slightly better shape to the intervals because it takes a short time to respond to the higher pace. You end up with closer to a full minute in the Over zone, rather than spending the first 5- 10 seconds at too low a pace.

    I've been finding that I tend to fade a little on later Over interval sections. A pacing strategy to keep the Over sections fairly consistent for 9 minute intervals would be to hold back on the first Over minute of each set, where you're freshest, and then more or less go as hard as you can without sprinting on the two following Over minutes. Even going as hard as I can I'm still regularly under shooting the target on later Over minutes (especially during the final interval of 3).

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    You know, I actually thought about that today. I was doing some 3x3 PI"s. On my first 3 minute I was able to reach 110% of my LTHR. On the 2 that followed I was only able to reach 104% because my legs were shot. I'm guessing the important issue is not how high one reaches in the heart rate zones, but that your pushing to your max the entirety of the interval. The point being, one will eventually reach your targets as your fitness gets better.

    Since I am totally new to this, is this thinking correct?

  64. #64
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    When it comes to intervals like Power Intervals, where you're trying very hard, then you'd normally aim to ride them at an intensity where you can just about complete all the intervals. Some fading and drop in performance towards the end of the set is normal once you begin to fatigue. You have different points of view on how much fading is acceptable before you decide you're too tired and call it a day. In Training and Racing With a Powermeter by Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggan (pages 76 and 77) they base it upon the watts achieved in the third effort:

    When To Stop Interval Repeats, Based On Watts Achieved In Third Effort

    Intervals - Avg Drop In Power
    20 min ---- 3-5%
    10min ---- 4-6%
    5 min ---- 5-7%
    3 min ---- 8-9%
    2 min ---- 10-12%
    1 min ---- 10-12%
    30 sec ----12-15%
    15 sec - when peak power drops by 15-20%, or when average power for the interval drops by 10-15%

    "Note: The percentage drop in average watts is based on the number of watts achieved in the third effort. For example, when doing 5 minute intervals, a rider is ready for a rest when his or her average watts for an interval are 5-7% lower than they were for the third effort.

    In the table, we have based the percentage drop-off on the third interval that you complete because typically, the effort that a rider can put forth in his or her first two intervals will be much higher than what that rider could actually repeat multiple times. Since we assume you are "fresh" when you begin your interval session, we throw out those first two efforts for the purpose of determining when to stop a workout. Obviously, if you are doing longer intervals in which you might only complete two intervals total, then this rule does not apply."
    Training and Racing With a Powermeter by Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggan (page 77)

    As your fitness improves you should be able to get closer to completing a full set of intervals at the prescribed intensity. Once you find that you can easily complete an interval session at a particular intensity that's a sign that your body has adapted to the workload. You'll need to increase either the intensity or duration of your future sessions in order to continue providing a training stimulus.

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    Before I got a power meter, I augmented HR training with "minimum speed" training. This involves doing hill repeats with a target minimum speed that is challenging but attainable for the desired time period. It will likely be harder and harder to hold that minimum mph in subsequent sets. The percentages quoted from TARWAPM can be applied to minimum speed just they can be to watts - take the minimum mph for the 3rd set, apply the percentages, if your speed is falling off excessively, you're toast and should stop.

    Since I came up with this method on my own, I don't know if any coaches or trainers use it, but I used it for a couple years before I got an SRM. Using the minimum mph helps overcome HR lag - just like watts, your speed is RIGHT NOW (as opposed to a slowly rising HR) and it only takes a few sessions to know that Hill A is all-out to keep your speed above 12mph for 5 minutes, Hill B is all-out to stay above 15mph for 2 minutes, etc.

    There still can be variability from one training session to another due to wind (headwind or tailwind). There were a few days where I felt like Superman because I flew up a certain a certain hill with a certain speed at a lower HR than usual (unrecognized tailwind), only to do the same hill a few days later and struggle to maintain the same speed as before due to a headwind. Thus, minimum mph is not as good as watts, but a very helpful way to augment HR.
    '13 Spec Epic 29er, '09 Orbea CX, '12 Cannondale SuperSix, '08 Spec Transition, '06 Simtra Trials (sold), Yamaha YZ450 (sold)

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    This article about heart rate training and short efforts makes some interesting points which are worth bearing in mind.

    HEART RATE TRAINING FOR THE S&C COACH | PerformancEDU LLC

    .

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    WR304 thanks for all the info you have given in this thread. It must have taken a lot of your time...but it truly embodies what makes this website so amazing.
    Originally Posted by XC62701
    Agreed...make it longer. I want to know death is an option

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    Quote Originally Posted by Okie Dokie View Post
    WR304 thanks for all the info you have given in this thread. It must have taken a lot of your time...but it truly embodies what makes this website so amazing.
    +1
    I have devoured it!

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