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  1. #1
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    Lifting and Riding - Finding balance?

    Here's the skinny.

    I love to lift, don't want to stop. Currently doing two endurance based full body routines each week. Nothing fancy.

    I love to ride, not going to stop. Looking to race in a few months. Upping my miles per week to help train.

    Right now I am riding 10-15 miles Monday and Thursday, lifting Tuesday and Friday, and one big ride of at least 20 miles on the weekend.

    Is this a decent split for right now? (time is limited otherwise my rides would be closer to x2 on the distances)

    Should I drop my leg workouts? (calf, hammies, quads) or lesson them (just doing maybe 1 compound leg movement per lifting day) or should I keep on hitting my legs from each angle?

  2. #2
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    I came from a big weight lifting background. When I started Biking for fitness about 3 years ago, It was because I couldn't trail run any more. Do you mind sharing your actual weight lifting split?

    I did my fair share of Starting strength and could Squat high 300s, and deadlift 450. This does not translate much to Racing mountain bikes for an hour, but can help you feel like you are fast on a few 1-3 minute strava segments on trails because you may have explosive short power. 3 years later, I haven't power lifted at all and my leg mass is the same as it was back then, but the shape has changed and is more defined. pretty much the only mass I have lost is in Lats, traps, upper chest, and upper arm. My anterior core is much larger and stronger. This might be hard take at first, but as that weight goes off and your speed picks up, you really don't worry much about it and get addicted to speed gains more than gym gains.

    Riding our Austin technical trails on an XC bike will keep your arms really strong. Mine arent tiny and I haven't done more than shoulder sets and core work in the hotel gym when I cant ride outdoors. I cant stress the importants of this type of work enough if you aren't riding outdoors. Lots of Planks pushups, upright rows, pendlay rows will keep you safe when you get back on the trail and keep you on the bike through the gnar. Me in winter form: https://dgtzuqphqg23d.cloudfront.net...-2048x2048.jpg

    I would say drop all of your leg workouts all together for the next few moths, (keep the dips, pullups, pushups) focus on riding outdoors and indoors, and watch what happens between now and the XC season in February. If you must lift, there are many functional movements that will help you really handle the bike well and throw it around. Some of them are metioned above.

  3. #3
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    I don't really race much (though I am doing a fat bike race in Feb). I also don't do much long distance. I do lift year around running Starting Strength templates, though I do move into maintenance periods if I'm preparing for a bikepacking trip etc. I do occasionally compete in powerlifting.

    If you are lifting for athletic performance, then I'd suggest dropping all isolation exercises and bro splits for a general strength program that exclusively focuses on compound lifts. There is not a more efficient way to get stronger. If you are lifting primarily for aesthetics, then, that's out of my realm of expertise.

    The best thing to do is to periodize your overall training where there is a bike off season when you are focused purely on strength and then "in season" maintenance. The frustrating part of this is that your strength levels will never get past a certain point since you are essentially rebuilding every off season. The good news is that you'll be strong by cyclist standards and should find your body to be more resilient and bullet proof as a result. Cyclists are notoriously weak, but I'd set some kind of reasonable set of maintenance standards ("in season" baseline strength). This will be an individual number based on some experience over time, but, the 100/200/300/400 is often touted as being reasonably attainable and maintainable for male athletes. That's 100# standing Overhead Press, 200# bench press, 300# backsquat, 400# deadlift. Those numbers can be achieved at relatively low body weights with relatively low body mass and I've seen both competitive distance runners and competitive skiers maintain those numbers (skiers have a forced off season, so they tend to get stronger). As a cyclist, it may take some time to get there, but maintaining won't be especially difficult.




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  4. #4
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    Funny you bring this up because I was thinking about writing a thread about using weightlifting as cross training for periodization. The literature has traditionally emphasized running, xc ski or other aerobic activities for cross training. Oh, I do 15-30 races a year.

    Summer may go something like this:
    M: off
    T: ride
    W: ride
    T: ride
    F: lift and stretch
    S: Race
    S: ride and lift

    but in winter, I progressively switch to something like this:

    M: off
    T: Lift and short ride
    W: Ride
    Thur: Lift
    Fri: Ride:
    Sat: Lift and ride
    Sun: Ski alpine or XC ski and/or ride

    As far as how to lift, I believe that people just tend to get a bit anal on what lifts to do, reps, sets, exercises, etc (just like people get too anal about what to do in bike training). when I believe it really doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that you lift (or ride) with good frequency and volume (secondarily).

    Believing that, I make my lifting routines pretty simple using compound lifts. Day 1: WU, Squats, bench, rows, then add other stuff afterwards if I feel like it. Day 2: WU, Squats, Overhead press, and Dead lift, and add other stuff if I feel like it. Probably don't want to lift two days in a row. Repeat the cycle as much as time/logistics allows (like the schedule above). When bored of this, change things up. I really like mixing it up some XFit workouts as well: Fran, Cindy, etc.

    As the bike season approaches and roads/trails clear of snow, convert more lifting days to biking days.

    As far as Performance Manager, I make a 1 hour lift average session equal to 50TSS. I adjust accordingly if it's harder or easier than average. But I believe this is only accurate (maybe) if the legs are spinning on the bike a few days a week.

    As far as being strong and a competitive cyclist, that ain't gonna happen. I'm a pretty decent 50+ rider and these are my current 5X5 lifts. SQ = 205, Bench = 155, OH Push Press = 100, Dead lifts = 205, etc. At 158 pounds (that's that I think I am stronger than most Masters my age). I believe that in doing endurance activities you sacrifice the testosterone you need to get strong. In general, Endurance athletes have lower testosterone than the general public.

    For reference my lifetime best lifts were: Bench = 305, Squats=465, when I was 25 yrs old, in contest at 167 pounds. Cycling is not good for strength.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdocta View Post
    Here's the skinny.

    I love to lift, don't want to stop. Currently doing two endurance based full body routines each week. Nothing fancy.

    I love to ride, not going to stop. Looking to race in a few months. Upping my miles per week to help train.

    Right now I am riding 10-15 miles Monday and Thursday, lifting Tuesday and Friday, and one big ride of at least 20 miles on the weekend.

    Is this a decent split for right now? (time is limited otherwise my rides would be closer to x2 on the distances)

    Should I drop my leg workouts? (calf, hammies, quads) or lesson them (just doing maybe 1 compound leg movement per lifting day) or should I keep on hitting my legs from each angle?

    Big fan of strength training with weights to enhance performance in any sport. I credit weight training with allowing me to continue to participate in some fairly rugged ventures even as I'm getting older.

    Finding the right balance is tough. I no longer race but ride hard and am always in touch with how I'm performing. Here are some fundamentals that have worked for me with regard to lifting hard and riding hard during the same time period...

    (Your last specific question will be addressed.)

    I no longer lift until failure with higher reps. It takes too long for muscles to recover from this. That is probably the single biggest thing I've learned and changed with regards of how to lift.

    The next biggest thing I adhere to is sticking to the "big lifts", mentioned below. Get rid of the dumbbells and balls and bands (unless rehabbing something or squeaking in some exercise at work). Others will disagree with me on this one, but for the working man trying to lift and ride stick to the lifts that give you the most bang for your buck.

    Key lifts include the squat, deadlift, press, row or chin. I don't do many lifts other than these.

    5x5, strong lifts type work out, but modify it during the bike season. More like 3 sets of 5 or so reps for key lifts. The strong lifts type work out is no secret at all but his website is a decent read (https://stronglifts.com/5x5/).


    Biking is for endurance, weights are for power and injury resistance. So, my lifting is focused on gaining explosive power. Lower reps, higher weight, big muscle groups.

    As I don't lift until failure I can often do the same lifts the next day with good results. The "day of rest" between lifts definitely applies when you are lifting until failure or doing several sets. I can even get in a good 2 hour ride the same day I lift, again, as I'm not lifting until failure with higher reps. In the past I lifted until failure and could not walk a flight of stairs for two days after squatting. Sure, my lifts were heavier, but not by that much, and my overall athletic performance was lesser.

    I no longer lift to hit weight "goals" though it is necessary to keep adding weight if you want to get stronger. I lift to be more athletic overall and prevent injury.


    Been lifting to improve performance in other sports for over 30 years and am still learning how to make it all work out best.
    Last edited by Miker J; 12-19-2017 at 05:48 AM.

  6. #6
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    ^good post. OP should take note that "Starting Strength" has been mentioned 3x so far in this thread and with good reasoning.

    I would also agree that 5x5 backsquats "in season" is likely going to be too much volume and that 3x5 would likely be much more appropriate. In most 5x5 intermediate programming, you'll spend the rest of the week in a state of recovery while adding in additional volume or intensity to further drive adaptation. This is far from ideal for cycling, so, "in season" you will want to limit your squatting to what can be recovered from within a 24 hour cycle. Because deadlifts are so taxing, I would be very careful here as well. Ideally your squats and deadlifts would be followed by a complete rest day, so perhaps your "in season" training might look something like:

    Sunday: long ride

    Monday: complete rest

    Tuesday: 3x5 backsquat, 3-5x5 bench press, 1x5 deadlift

    Wednesday: rest/active recovery. (Easy ride)

    Thursday: "light" squat (front squat?) 2x5 or 3x3, OH Press 3-5x5, chin-ups orders barbell rows. Could do a split here and ride the same day (intensity)

    Friday: intensity riding of some type or rest if you did a split on Thursday.

    Saturday: Medium length, medium intensity (perhaps a rest day every other week, or dependent upon what you do on Friday. Could also do a long ride here, rest on Sunday and rotate your days so you are on a 8 day cycle.

    Three things:

    1. Experimentation

    2. Make sure you give your body enough time to have potentially adapted before you ditch a program and try something else. It will take some trial and error.

    3. Recovery management. The above type of program will require ample sleep (8 hours minimum, 9 is much, much better, 10 is ideal) and astute attention to your eating.





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  7. #7
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    I lift all year round. In a previous life I was a competitive powerlifter and also dabbled in Olympic lifts but I'd describe my modern program as bodyweight+, as I've gravitated towards mostly bodyweight lifts with a weighted vest and bands as necessary. Legs 1x/week utilizing weighted pistol squats, 2-handed heavy kettlebell swings and 1-legged weighted hip thrusts. I usually ride hard on leg day and do an active recovery spin the following day. It has worked quite well for me so far and I continue to improve on the bike, too.

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    You generate all your power from a high cadence. Add dynamic stretching to your lifting routine and it will help you to climb with higher cadence.

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    I would suggest adding another ride during the week, even if it's really short; if you're trying to do 4 or 5 rides a week, you can miss a day here and there due to life and still get good frequency. My rides are most often about an hour, and one longer ride per week usually on the weekend (2-3 hrs). I do one ride with a set of short hill repeats once a week, if I'm really short on time I ride to the hill, do the repeats and ride home (30-40min ride), -my other rides all include quite a few hills, the hill-repeat day is extra hard. Hopefully at least 2 of your rides per week have some hills, you're going to want some climbing speed for racing.
    carry clippers! cut something off the trail every time you ride.

  10. #10
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    fyi

    -------------
    Concurrent training strategies to develop strength and endurance

    -----------------



    ---------------


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdocta View Post
    Here's the skinny.

    I love to lift, don't want to stop. Currently doing two endurance based full body routines each week. Nothing fancy.

    I love to ride, not going to stop. Looking to race in a few months. Upping my miles per week to help train.

    Right now I am riding 10-15 miles Monday and Thursday, lifting Tuesday and Friday, and one big ride of at least 20 miles on the weekend.

    Is this a decent split for right now? (time is limited otherwise my rides would be closer to x2 on the distances)

    Should I drop my leg workouts? (calf, hammies, quads) or lesson them (just doing maybe 1 compound leg movement per lifting day) or should I keep on hitting my legs from each angle?
    What is your goal? If you want to win races then it becomes about weight vs. power output. I used to be a power lifter and caught the racing bug. Took me 12 years to figure out if I was going to make a serious attempt at racing pro I would need to drop weight. Went from 220 to 162-165 at 6'1", started just riding everyday and gave up on the gym. After 12 years of mid-pack racing started winning almost every race I entered. I retired a few years back and have started power lifting again and now weigh 231 and can't keep up with my 13 year old biking. Lifting adds to much body weight to compete at the highest level, but if that is not your goal then it is great for overall fitness.

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=Poncharelli;13464101]
    I believe that in doing endurance activities you sacrifice the testosterone you need to get strong. In general, Endurance athletes have lower testosterone than the general public.
    QUOTE]

    Some of these younger guys on this forum don't understand this but I bet they'll change up their training when they reach their 50's and beyond if they are still racing their bikes. Lifting weights is a good way to increase testosterone legally if racing. The following was taken from WebMD.com:

    "Lifting weights or doing other strength-training workouts has a bigger effect on your testosterone, Schroeder says. He says the following strategies will give you an even bigger boost in testosterone from your strength training workouts, which is backed up by research.
    •Use more muscles. (For instance, a full-body workout affects this hormone more than doing one exercise, such as biceps curls.)
    •Lift heavier weights rather than doing many reps of light weights.
    •Have shorter rest periods during your workout."

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by quax View Post
    fyi

    Good post. Great link.

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FJSnoozer View Post
    I came from a big weight lifting background. When I started Biking for fitness about 3 years ago, It was because I couldn't trail run any more. Do you mind sharing your actual weight lifting split?

    I did my fair share of Starting strength and could Squat high 300s, and deadlift 450. This does not translate much to Racing mountain bikes for an hour, but can help you feel like you are fast on a few 1-3 minute strava segments on trails because you may have explosive short power. 3 years later, I haven't power lifted at all and my leg mass is the same as it was back then, but the shape has changed and is more defined. pretty much the only mass I have lost is in Lats, traps, upper chest, and upper arm. My anterior core is much larger and stronger. This might be hard take at first, but as that weight goes off and your speed picks up, you really don't worry much about it and get addicted to speed gains more than gym gains.

    Riding our Austin technical trails on an XC bike will keep your arms really strong. Mine arent tiny and I haven't done more than shoulder sets and core work in the hotel gym when I cant ride outdoors. I cant stress the importants of this type of work enough if you aren't riding outdoors. Lots of Planks pushups, upright rows, pendlay rows will keep you safe when you get back on the trail and keep you on the bike through the gnar. Me in winter form: https://dgtzuqphqg23d.cloudfront.net...-2048x2048.jpg

    I would say drop all of your leg workouts all together for the next few moths, (keep the dips, pullups, pushups) focus on riding outdoors and indoors, and watch what happens between now and the XC season in February. If you must lift, there are many functional movements that will help you really handle the bike well and throw it around. Some of them are metioned above.
    For me I started off religious to doing 5x5x5 (Squat, Bench Press, Dead Lift, Bent Over Row, Shoulder Press) with planks to cooldown 3x a week. I've since lost all of my free time for the gym with mtbing more and a newborn. Over the past year or so I have worked down to lifting only twice a week for 45 minutes at a time. I can't get to the gym anymore to lift so I bought some cheap adjustable DBs. My current workouts are

    A Day - Circuit, x3 sets
    Thrusters
    Split Squats
    BO Row
    Chest Press
    Stiff Legged DL
    Rocking Calf Extension
    Planks

    B Day - Circuit, x3 sets
    Clean and Press
    Lunges
    Calf Extension
    Single Arm Row
    Push Ups
    Deadlift
    Spell Casters

    When I do get out to my first race it will likely be on a 130mm full suspension trail bike rather than a true XC bike.

    EDIT - Basically I am considering either dropping all of the leg movements or just keeping the split squats / lunges. My current lifting is mostly just for maintaining strength and injury prevention at this point with my limited lifting resources (time and equipment).

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    Tons of great info gentlemen thank you.

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    I stopped doing upper body weight training when I got into riding, because I have plenty of upper body strength, and believe that in my case, excess muscle up top is of no benefit for riding. I have always found it very easy to bulk up, but struggle on the aerobic side.

    My upper leg muscles are bigger now than they ever were before I got into biking, even when I was doing leg presses. I do tend to push tall gears (maybe not the best way, but works well for me, and I'm in it for the fun).
    Banshee Prime

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    Quote Originally Posted by quax View Post
    fyi
    Money. Thanks!

    Though as one of the older dudes on the forum, I advise a bit of caution in determining what defines "heavy" weight.

    I understand the physiology of the heavy weight approach, but trust me, you want to keep all your connective tissues healthy and sound.

    In all things, balance!
    Whining is not a strategy.

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    Given your actual average miles you mentioned in the other thread, which these guys haven't seen, I would ditch most if not all of your lifting for the time being and get some serious bike time in the next few months until our season. First race is in Feb 10-11. You will have massive beginner level training gains on the bike because of how few hours you average. 6 hours average riding time will be far more important for you. Pick up the weight regimen in May when the season is winding down.

    ^^this is the periodization I would use for a lifter and weekend warrior getting into their first season of racing.

    If you are heavy enough, you will be amazed how much size you can gain with body weight work. Something like the Hundred Pushups actually caused me to put on mass. I started this protocol after my first season of Racing, but there is no reason why you cant do it while the baby is sleeping. I know how important not leaving the house is with a baby. An indoor smart trainer could be a complete game changer for you. You would want a wheel on if you don't have a road bike. The Cyclops hammer and the Newest wahoo kickr are boost compatible and can be used with your mountain bike. Or some good rollers with resistance like the Elite smart rollers.

    Keep in mind that you will want to preride courses on the weekends between races, so your long weekend ride will probably be a course preride. Take a loop to get acquainted and get in a hard lap non stop to get a feel for racing. Think about areas where you could pass, sip water, etc. You wont be able to think much when you are racing.

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    What if I did a split like this...

    Monday - HIIT Ride
    Tuesday - Lifting
    Wednesday - Distance Ride
    Thursday - HIIT Ride
    Friday - Lifting
    Weekend - 1 day rest, 1 day big trail ride

    I'm not only battling a work schedule and a newborn but I also have a lovely wifey who unfortunately for me doesn't really like this hobby of mine for various reasons and I need to try and stay reasonable with the amount of time away from her I dedicate to the sport. Time is my most precious resource at the moment.

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    ^^^ Looks perfectly reasonable to me.

    But for your weekend, I think you meant to type "1 day wife and kid", not "1 day rest"!
    Whining is not a strategy.

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    Everyday is wife and kid day, I just chisel out an hour for myself on some of them!

    On my lifting day should I skip legs? Just do compound leg movements? Or should I stick to compound + a couple of isolation lifts?

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    Definitely compound lifts (Squats, cleans, deadlifts, OH presses, etc.). The magic of those lift is their development of core. They hit core indirectly but some studies show that it engages core more than specific core exercises.

    Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is how strength work develops slow twitch muscle fibers thus improving endurance. I think I read Friel and Coggan talk about this, so this is a direct benefit to endurance performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poncharelli View Post
    Definitely compound lifts (Squats, cleans, deadlifts, OH presses, etc.). The magic of those lift is their development of core. They hit core indirectly but some studies show that it engages core more than specific core exercises.

    Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is how strength work develops slow twitch muscle fibers thus improving endurance. I think I read Friel and Coggan talk about this, so this is a direct benefit to endurance performance.
    So right now my lower body lifts are

    Split Squat
    Stiff Legged Deadlift
    Calf Extension

    and

    Lunges
    Deadlift
    Rocking Calf Extension

    Should I keep it as such or just do the Lunges/Split Squats?

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    Neither. Do standard Squats, regular deadlifts and Power cleans. I would stick with a twice per week A/B split of

    3x5 Full Back Squat
    3x5 Flat Bench Press
    3x5/1x5 DL

    3x5 full back Squat
    3x5 OH Press
    5x3 Power clean

    Each movements have appropriate warm-up sets not mentioned to work up to the working weight.

    The only calves you should raise are the ones that bare hamburgers or milk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FJSnoozer View Post
    Neither. Do standard Squats, regular deadlifts and Power cleans. I would stick with a twice per week A/B split of

    3x5 Full Back Squat
    3x5 Flat Bench Press
    3x5/1x5 DL

    3x5 full back Squat
    3x5 OH Press
    5x3 Power clean

    Each movements have appropriate warm-up sets not mentioned to work up to the working weight.

    The only calves you should raise are the ones that bare hamburgers or milk.
    You mean this?
    Lifting and Riding - Finding balance?-967b4f87aa883dcce63f088945626178.jpg

    I would love to go back to 3x5s however sadly my DBs only go up to 55lbs and I don't have a rack or spotter. Gotta work with what I've got!

    I only have two 5-55lb adjustable DBs, a flat bench, pull up bar, 165lbs of body-weight, and 30-45min as my resources.

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    ^good post. I'd only employ the power Clean if the person can already do them or has access to coaching help or instruction from someone who can do them. Otherwise, a weaker/lighter pulling variant such as Straight Leg Deadlifts, paused deadlifts, snatch grip deadlifts, or deficit deadlifts at 75-80% of the "heavy" deadlift workset would probably be more appropriate. I like using power Cleans for pulling volume, but it's a difficult movement to learn with out instruction so I'm usually hesitant to suggest it to the general population.


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    Quote Originally Posted by drdocta View Post
    You mean this?
    I would love to go back to 3x5s however sadly my DBs only go up to 55lbs and I don't have a rack or spotter. Gotta work with what I've got!

    I only have two 5-55lb adjustable DBs, a flat bench, pull up bar, 165lbs of body-weight, and 30-45min as my resources.
    So what exactly are you trying to achieve with your lifts?

    stronger and more injury resistant?
    Be a better mountain biker?
    Achieve an ideal look?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FJSnoozer View Post
    So what exactly are you trying to achieve with your lifts?

    stronger and more injury resistant?
    Be a better mountain biker?
    Achieve an ideal look?
    A little of A and a little of B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drdocta View Post
    A little of A and a little of B.
    I realize that you have time and equipment restraints, but the compound lifts are going to be the most efficient way to achieve these goals.

    The body is considerably stronger functioning in compound movements than in isolation. For example, You can squat way more than twice what you can lunge, you can barbell press more than what you can dumbbell press. Since moving more weight makes you stronger than moving less weight and since compound movements recruit more muscular than dumbells, kettle bells and machines, the barbell is the most efficient way to get stronger. Period. I'd also add that the parent movements employ considerably more muscle recruitment than the weaker squat variants. Lunges, split squats etc have their place, but they are considerably weaker variants of the parent movement.

    Since virtually Everything that you do in sports is a variation of a squat, a press, or a pull, and since Strength is a general adaptation (get strong in the gym, improve your skills practicing your sport with additional strength), stick to the parent barbell movements for the most significant gains in strength while improving your sport skill set and conditioning as needed.

    Much of this has gotten convoluted in recent years with the "functional fitness" trend where you attempt to turn the gym into a mountain or an active football field, where football linemen are told to squat from their football stance and cyclist need not squat to depth since turning the pedals isn't a full range of motion. The problem with that thinking is that squatting from a lineman's position is compromised and the athlete cannot move as much weight and is thus weaker, where they would be stronger with a conventional squat stance.

    In the case of the cyclist, squatting to depth employs muscles that quarter squats do not target: squatting to depth makes you stronger than quarter squatting. Stronger squat = stronger legs = stronger muscles to turn pedals and increased time until muscle failure. Even though cycling is a independent leg activity, backsquats allow you to move more weight, further stressing the body than weaker variants possibly could and allowing for greater strength adaptation. Since stronger legs apply more force to pedals and since the backsquat is the most efficient way to have stronger legs, it follows that an athlete should be focused on backsquatting and not doing lunges or leg extensions. (Of course, as a cyclist, you'll need muscle endurance and the ability to handle the PH balance of lactic acid, both of which you will address in the sport specific training you do on your bike). Don't try to simulate cycling in the gym -rather use the gym to get stronger and spend the time on your bike getting better at biking.

    As for access to equipment and having time to go to the gym, if it's important to you and of benefit, you'll make time for it. While you certainly don't have to go to the gym to be a good cyclist, the question posed was about lifting and cycling and the relationship between the two.

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    Hey man I know and love the benefits of bar versus all else, preaching to the choir!

    Just simply not in the cards right now, maybe in the future or during my two months off in the summer.

    Is a DB workout so bad that I should just drop it and let them collect dust?

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    I don't see any reason to back squat. Pedaling is a one-legged activity and there is no need/use for heavy spinal loading, which can be counterproductive, dangerous and will always be the rate-limiting step in back squatting. Unilateral lifts like the Bulgarian split squat are way more functional and safer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelhmr View Post
    I don't see any reason to back squat. Pedaling is a one-legged activity and there is no need/use for heavy spinal loading, which can be counterproductive, dangerous and will always be the rate-limiting step in back squatting. Unilateral lifts like the Bulgarian split squat are way more functional and safer.

    Very much disagree with your post. The OP's goals are to be stronger, more injury resistant, and a better mountain biker so traditional back squats are in order. Along with dead lifts, and presses, and chins/rows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Very much disagree with your post. The OP's goals are to be stronger, more injury resistant, and a better mountain biker so traditional back squats are in order. Along with dead lifts, and presses, and chins/rows.
    Okay, let's break that down then:

    1. Stronger. Back squatting is limited to how much weight you can carry on your lower back, not your legs. Unilateral squatting has less than half of the spinal loading as back squatting and thus puts a greater force on your leg relative to your back and also as an absolute number. Thus, you can push your legs to the limit without putting an excessive load on your lower back/spine. Then there is the added benefit of training each leg independently to eliminate imbalances in the legs/hips and improve balance/coordination.

    2. Injury resistance. You'd have a difficult time proving a case that 2x spinal loading is less prone to injury than 1x spinal loading. People get injured back squatting all the time in both an acute and chronic manner. That's actually one of the reasons unilateral squatting has become so much more popular in the last 5 years.

    3. Better MTB. Well, again pedaling is a one-legged activity. How many times does one apply max downward force on the pedals simultaneously? Never. Now, how often does one apply max force with one leg? Quite often.

    Anyway, I've done both. Back squatting was great when my goal was to be a competitive powerlifter and have a strong back squat. As it relates to sports specfic applications, there are much better options that build more strength, coordination and balance without any unnecessary excessive spinal loading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelhmr View Post
    Okay, let's break that down then:

    1. Stronger. Back squatting is limited to how much weight you can carry on your lower back, not your legs. Unilateral squatting has less than half of the spinal loading as back squatting and thus puts a greater force on your leg relative to your back and also as an absolute number. Thus, you can push your legs to the limit without putting an excessive load on your lower back/spine. Then there is the added benefit of training each leg independently to eliminate imbalances in the legs/hips and improve balance/coordination.

    2. Injury resistance. You'd have a difficult time proving a case that 2x spinal loading is less prone to injury than 1x spinal loading. People get injured back squatting all the time in both an acute and chronic manner. That's actually one of the reasons unilateral squatting has become so much more popular in the last 5 years.

    3. Better MTB. Well, again pedaling is a one-legged activity. How many times does one apply max downward force on the pedals simultaneously? Never. Now, how often does one apply max force with one leg? Quite often.

    Anyway, I've done both. Back squatting was great when my goal was to be a competitive powerlifter and have a strong back squat. As it relates to sports specfic applications, there are much better options that build more strength, coordination and balance without any unnecessary excessive spinal loading.


    These are good points. Research is always coming out with new ideas. Maybe I will have to give the Bulgarian lift a go. Thanks.

    Since it seems you may be coming from a power lifting back ground consider some points. An avid mountain biker, who wants to cross train with weights, will be putting a lot less weight on their back for a squat - a whole lot less than what you thinking of (coming from a power lifting back ground). One could argue the threats associated from spinal loading may be less. The relative gains from squatting only modest weight may be great for the biker.

    The OP wants overall strength and injury resistance. Squatting provides both for the entire body, especially the back. But, I will try to read up on the latest.

    I've lifted weights since 13 to enhance athletic ability in other sports. Almost never in lifting. The squat, deadlift, press, chin, clean - have always been at the top. We may be coming from different perspectives. Injury occurring from those sports (not lifting) exceedingly outweighed injury from squatting. Loads and sheering force on the spine from many contact sports, or falls from a mountain bike, can often exceed those forces generated from lifting. Heck, I probably put more strain on my back doing trail work a few days a week over squatting. I'm lucky too. At 47 years old I still do those lifts, DH double blacks, still dabble in wrestling, and xc ride. The total body fitness I get from those lifts/squats are very obvious to me. Other guys my age are taking testosterone replacement, while I'm pushing squats, which seems to do the same thing, only better.


    The best exercise specific for enhancing mountain bike performance is mountain biking. Any lift and how it applies to pedaling performance specifically is... well, very unproven.

    Anyway, an awful lot of this sort of info is highly anecdotal - especially what I've added, and what works for one may not for an other. Considering points and counter points make a good starting point for making a plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelhmr View Post
    Okay, let's break that down then:

    1. Stronger. Back squatting is limited to how much weight you can carry on your lower back, not your legs. Unilateral squatting has less than half of the spinal loading as back squatting and thus puts a greater force on your leg relative to your back and also as an absolute number. Thus, you can push your legs to the limit without putting an excessive load on your lower back/spine. Then there is the added benefit of training each leg independently to eliminate imbalances in the legs/hips and improve balance/coordination.

    2. Injury resistance. You'd have a difficult time proving a case that 2x spinal loading is less prone to injury than 1x spinal loading. People get injured back squatting all the time in both an acute and chronic manner. That's actually one of the reasons unilateral squatting has become so much more popular in the last 5 years.

    3. Better MTB. Well, again pedaling is a one-legged activity. How many times does one apply max downward force on the pedals simultaneously? Never. Now, how often does one apply max force with one leg? Quite often.

    Anyway, I've done both. Back squatting was great when my goal was to be a competitive powerlifter and have a strong back squat. As it relates to sports specfic applications, there are much better options that build more strength, coordination and balance without any unnecessary excessive spinal loading.
    Most of this false. The spinal loading aspect is mostly a myth since your body adapts to the load over time. Sure, if you put 600 pounds on the back of an untrained squatter, you'd have a case, but by the time you get to squatting 600#, or 200# or 50#, assuming proper form, the. Your body is suitably adapted to the load. Weight lifting injuries are remarkably rare. Look at the injury rate and both soccer and cycling far outweigh weightlifting injuries.

    The reason that unilateral squatting has become more popular is because of the disinformation of the functional fitness community.

    And no. 3, you make a leap of faith based on assumption. Strength is a ****general adaptation*** not a specific one and since the body is stronger in a compound manner than a isolated manner, you can move more weight backsquatting, thus applying more stress to both legs than you can generate with any weaker and independent squat variant. Since there is greater stress on each leg, then each leg experiences greater strength adaptation than can possibly be achieved with independent leg work. If you can make each leg stronger by training them together, why would you default to a weaker movement? Because your pedal your bike independently? Assuming you have sufficient coordination to effectively pedal your bike, the that's all the unilateral work you need barring injury or some type of physical limitation. The purpose of lifting weight is to make your muscles stronger and then apply that strength to your skill-dependent sport. Your quad is either strong or weak. It can't be weak at one task and strong at another since is only has one job. Either your quad is strong enough to push a pedal up a hill or it is not.

    If we followed your logic to the end, the only people who would benefit from squatting are competitive power lifters. All things being equal, being stronger is almost always going to be better than being weaker. The most efficient way to get stronger is with a barbell since it allows you to move the greatest amount of weight over an efficient range of motion.

    Again, you don't have to lift weights to be a good cyclists, but if we are having a conversation about effective strength training, we're going to keep ending up at this same place: there is only one kind of strength and that is the ability to apply force. You can use this Strength functionally, but "functional strength" isn't some different kind of strength: it is still the ability to apply force -not to be confused with sport specific skill, which must be developed by practicing your sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelhmr View Post
    Okay, let's break that down then:

    1. Stronger. Back squatting is limited to how much weight you can carry on your lower back, not your legs. Unilateral squatting has less than half of the spinal loading as back squatting and thus puts a greater force on your leg relative to your back and also as an absolute number. Thus, you can push your legs to the limit without putting an excessive load on your lower back/spine. Then there is the added benefit of training each leg independently to eliminate imbalances in the legs/hips and improve balance/coordination.

    2. Injury resistance. You'd have a difficult time proving a case that 2x spinal loading is less prone to injury than 1x spinal loading. People get injured back squatting all the time in both an acute and chronic manner. That's actually one of the reasons unilateral squatting has become so much more popular in the last 5 years.

    3. Better MTB. Well, again pedaling is a one-legged activity. How many times does one apply max downward force on the pedals simultaneously? Never. Now, how often does one apply max force with one leg? Quite often.

    Anyway, I've done both. Back squatting was great when my goal was to be a competitive powerlifter and have a strong back squat. As it relates to sports specfic applications, there are much better options that build more strength, coordination and balance without any unnecessary excessive spinal loading.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    These are good points. Research is always coming out with new ideas. Maybe I will have to give the Bulgarian lift a go. Thanks.

    Since it seems you may be coming from a power lifting back ground consider some points. An avid mountain biker, who wants to cross train with weights, will be putting a lot less weight on their back for a squat - a whole lot less than what you thinking of (coming from a power lifting back ground). One could argue the threats associated from spinal loading may be less. The relative gains from squatting only modest weight may be great for the biker.

    The OP wants overall strength and injury resistance. Squatting provides both for the entire body, especially the back. But, I will try to read up on the latest.
    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    Most of this false. The spinal loading aspect is mostly a myth since your body adapts to the load over time. Sure, if you put 600 pounds on the back of an untrained squatter, you'd have a case, but by the time you get to squatting 600#, or 200# or 50#, assuming proper form, the. Your body is suitably adapted to the load. Weight lifting injuries are remarkably rare. Look at the injury rate and both soccer and cycling far outweigh weightlifting injuries.

    The reason that unilateral squatting has become more popular is because of the disinformation of the functional fitness community.
    At least we agree coumpound lifts are the way to go and no one is advocating inferior lifts or isolated lifts which do little for a cyclist, other than cause imbalances.

    I can't also refute with absolute certainty some points you make about unilateral lifts, as they do seem to have some valid points in them. However, as many already said the spinal load in proper well done squats is far from being a problem in a healthy individuals.

    I would advice against doing unilateral lifts instead of compount lifts such as deadlifts or squats, mainly for 2 reasons:

    1. Those lifts are fairly rare in occasional lifters and thus the chance to do them wrong is high, other compounds lifts are also complex, let just say there are more resources available to do them right.

    2. Overal effectiveness of those for cycling is a big question mark, as additional work or to treat imbalances I would definitely give them a go.

    The main reason for a cyclist to incorporate weighlifting is not to increase pedaling strength, but rather to even out imbalances in the body. Many cyclists in particular have very strong quads and underdeveloped hamstrings which put too much strain on the knee. Deadlifts is a great way to balance this out and should be a priority over squats, although both of them will make wonders for your core as well.

    In summary, I believe any cyclist will benefit the most from weighlifting by working out imbalances in the legs and working the core, the latter one can actually make you output more power, especially when tired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    Most of this false. The spinal loading aspect is mostly a myth since your body adapts to the load over time. Sure, if you put 600 pounds on the back of an untrained squatter, you'd have a case, but by the time you get to squatting 600#, or 200# or 50#, assuming proper form, the. Your body is suitably adapted to the load. Weight lifting injuries are remarkably rare. Look at the injury rate and both soccer and cycling far outweigh weightlifting injuries.
    Well, you seem to have a limited understanding of what spinal loading is since you only attribute resulting compression forces to it. What you ignore completely here are shearing forces and potential for pelvic tilt (cross syndrome). https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/s...o-front-squats

    In discussing injuries, you compare strength training in a controlled environment to sports with dynamic fields of play for some reason? The good news is that we don't even have to continue the debate over injury rate/prevention, since it has already been studied, peer reviewed and published: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...y_implications

    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    The reason that unilateral squatting has become more popular is because of the disinformation of the functional fitness community.
    Citation missing? It has been advocated and used by some of the top strength and conditioning coaches in the world:
    https://www.t-nation.com/training/ca...-limb-training
    https://www.t-nation.com/training/bu...-one-at-a-time (Mike Boyle was the S&C coach for BU Hockey, Boston Bruins and the Women's national ice hockey team, among other things). To pretend this is some functional fitness fad shows, among other things, that you've never spent any significant time in a high performance training environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    And no. 3, you make a leap of faith based on assumption. Strength is a ****general adaptation*** not a specific one and since the body is stronger in a compound manner than a isolated manner, you can move more weight backsquatting, thus applying more stress to both legs than you can generate with any weaker and independent squat variant. Since there is greater stress on each leg, then each leg experiences greater strength adaptation than can possibly be achieved with independent leg work. If you can make each leg stronger by training them together, why would you default to a weaker movement? Because your pedal your bike independently? Assuming you have sufficient coordination to effectively pedal your bike, the that's all the unilateral work you need barring injury or some type of physical limitation. The purpose of lifting weight is to make your muscles stronger and then apply that strength to your skill-dependent sport. Your quad is either strong or weak. It can't be weak at one task and strong at another since is only has one job. Either your quad is strong enough to push a pedal up a hill or it is not.
    I highlighted what I believe to be the root cause of your misunderstanding here. If you read the links that I posted earlier, you'll note that the trial subjects could perform multiple reps of a 1-legged squat (general term) at 50% 1-rep max than they could their 1-rep max of a 2-legged squat. Think about that for a second: their legs each produced a greater force independently compared to a 2-legged squat when the spinal loading was reduced. This goes back to what I said earlier about the spinal loading being the rate-limiting step on a back squat. The legs are capable of producing forces greater than they can on a 2-legged back squat, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    If we followed your logic to the end, the only people who would benefit from squatting are competitive power lifters. All things being equal, being stronger is almost always going to be better than being weaker. The most efficient way to get stronger is with a barbell since it allows you to move the greatest amount of weight over an efficient range of motion.
    This is a fair point until we get to your last sentence here. See previous section.

    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    Again, you don't have to lift weights to be a good cyclists, but if we are having a conversation about effective strength training, we're going to keep ending up at this same place: there is only one kind of strength and that is the ability to apply force. You can use this Strength functionally, but "functional strength" isn't some different kind of strength: it is still the ability to apply force -not to be confused with sport specific skill, which must be developed by practicing your sport.
    Force can be applied over a limited/fixed range of motion, but can also be applied in a manner over a wider axes (x, y, z) that challenge other aspects of one's system (balance, coordination, stability, etc.). That's the difference. I'll leave it for others to decide for themselves whether training a limb independently is more useful for activities that involve independently applying (near maximal) forces of single limbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelhmr View Post
    Well, you seem to have a limited understanding of what spinal loading is since you only attribute resulting compression forces to it. What you ignore completely here are shearing forces and potential for pelvic tilt (cross syndrome). https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/s...o-front-squats

    In discussing injuries, you compare strength training in a controlled environment to sports with dynamic fields of play for some reason? The good news is that we don't even have to continue the debate over injury rate/prevention, since it has already been studied, peer reviewed and published: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...y_implications



    Citation missing? It has been advocated and used by some of the top strength and conditioning coaches in the world:
    https://www.t-nation.com/training/ca...-limb-training
    https://www.t-nation.com/training/bu...-one-at-a-time (Mike Boyle was the S&C coach for BU Hockey, Boston Bruins and the Women's national ice hockey team, among other things). To pretend this is some functional fitness fad shows, among other things, that you've never spent any significant time in a high performance training environment.



    I highlighted what I believe to be the root cause of your misunderstanding here. If you read the links that I posted earlier, you'll note that the trial subjects could perform multiple reps of a 1-legged squat (general term) at 50% 1-rep max than they could their 1-rep max of a 2-legged squat. Think about that for a second: their legs each produced a greater force independently compared to a 2-legged squat when the spinal loading was reduced. This goes back to what I said earlier about the spinal loading being the rate-limiting step on a back squat. The legs are capable of producing forces greater than they can on a 2-legged back squat, period.



    This is a fair point until we get to your last sentence here. See previous section.



    Force can be applied over a limited/fixed range of motion, but can also be applied in a manner over a wider axes (x, y, z) that challenge other aspects of one's system (balance, coordination, stability, etc.). That's the difference. I'll leave it for others to decide for themselves whether training a limb independently is more useful for activities that involve independently applying (near maximal) forces of single limbs.
    It's really not difficult to counter any of these arguments. The first link addressing pelvic tilt (aka butt wink) is a mobility problem that can readily be fixed with proper squat mechanics. I've seen this problem immediately corrected in many athletes. Like all movement patterns, training or sport, there is correct form and incorrect form. Most of these limitations can be addressed and fixed rather easily.

    Also, links to T-nation articles? Seriously?
    Bro science much?

    "I think the problem we see on the platform arises from a misunderstanding about the nature of spinal loading during hip flexion. The Forces of Darkness have done their job well, and they have implanted the notion that you have to stay upright when you squat, with as vertical a back angle as possible. And I’m telling you to wipe this silly bullshit from your mind. Think “rigid,” not “vertical” when you squat. A strong isometric contraction of the muscles surrounding your spine keeps your back in Normal Anatomical Position – flat, as we say in the business, because a muscular lower back will appear flat across the top of the muscles as they hold a normal lordotic curve in the spine – and a flat back is both an efficient transmitter of force and a safe position to load.

    You have been told that a more horizontal back angle exposes the spine to something called “shear,” an apparently fatal situation that arises when the back bears weight while positioned at an angle. From previous discussions, you know that moment – or leverage, the force transmitted along a wrench that causes a bolt to rotate and the force that the barbell applies to your back during a squat – is a “shear” force, since it is comprised of forces acting in two co-planar directions within the stressed object. In the squat, the moment force on the back is comprised of the force of the weight of the bar pushing vertically (gravity, right?) down on the back, which is held at an angle, and the force that is applied through the back in the opposite direction to resist the weight and move it through the range of motion."

    https://startingstrength.com/article...-clarification

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    So your counter to articles written on T-nation is a self-published article by an author who is heavily featured on T-nation? https://www.t-nation.com/all-article.../mark-rippetoe

    Unlike you I don't hold that against him, but I'm not sure what the value of that article is other than one man's opinion? Perhaps we can compare the resumes of these T-Nation authors to determine the value of the information they provide?

    Mike Boyle: MBSC Team | Mike Boyle Strength & Conditioning | 781-938-1330
    Notable athlete alumni across 29 different fields: Athlete Alumni | Mike Boyle Strength & Conditioning | 781-938-1330

    vs

    Mark Rippetoe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rippetoe
    Notable athlete alumni: ctrl+f = none found.

    So should we follow the opinions of a world-class strength and conditioning coach who has worked with numerous professional athletes, professional teams and Olympic teams across multiple sports, or another strength coach who peddles his weight training books and doesn't have a single notable athlete he has trained (not even by chance/accident)?!? Tough call. BTW, here are Mr. Rippetoe's thoughts on cycling {TLDR, he doesn't consider cyclists to be athletes... because reasons}
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-XYS7wYz2I

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelhmr View Post
    To summarize the video for those who don't mind watching it he states:

    Double your maximum absolute strength and now your individual pedal strokes will just represent half of the value before you doubling your absolute strength.

    i.e.

    Max squat pre lift : 100lb
    Average pedal stroke force: 10lb
    % of max: 10%

    Max squat post lift: 200lb
    Average pedal stroke force: 10lb
    % of max: 5%

    So you have effectively cut the effort in half, or you have doubled your performance to go faster or longer.


    I honestly can't believe he was talking serious there, he made a fool of himself talking about something that he has no idea how it works (endurance).

    At this point I'm not sure he understand the difference between anaerobic and aerobic efforts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDLover View Post
    To summarize the video for those who don't mind watching it he states:

    Double your maximum absolute strength and now your individual pedal strokes will just represent half of the value before you doubling your absolute strength.

    i.e.

    Max squat pre lift : 100lb
    Average pedal stroke force: 10lb
    % of max: 10%

    Max squat post lift: 200lb
    Average pedal stroke force: 10lb
    % of max: 5%

    So you have effectively cut the effort in half, or you have doubled your performance to go faster or longer.


    I honestly can't believe he was talking serious there, he made a fool of himself talking about something that he has no idea how it works (endurance).

    At this point I'm not sure he understand the difference between anaerobic and aerobic efforts.
    What you're missing there is that the above scenario assumes a baseline level cardiovascular fitness and a tolerance to lactic acid build up. Strong muscles need an efficient cardiovascular system to power them in a repetitive action such as pedaling, the high the anaerobic intensity, the more the demand: power endurance.

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    Lifting and Riding - Finding balance?

    Quote Originally Posted by steelhmr View Post
    So your counter to articles written on T-nation is a self-published article by an author who is heavily featured on T-nation? https://www.t-nation.com/all-article.../mark-rippetoe

    Unlike you I don't hold that against him, but I'm not sure what the value of that article is other than one man's opinion? Perhaps we can compare the resumes of these T-Nation authors to determine the value of the information they provide?

    Mike Boyle: MBSC Team | Mike Boyle Strength & Conditioning | 781-938-1330
    Notable athlete alumni across 29 different fields: Athlete Alumni | Mike Boyle Strength & Conditioning | 781-938-1330

    vs

    Mark Rippetoe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rippetoe
    Notable athlete alumni: ctrl+f = none found.

    So should we follow the opinions of a world-class strength and conditioning coach who has worked with numerous professional athletes, professional teams and Olympic teams across multiple sports, or another strength coach who peddles his weight training books and doesn't have a single notable athlete he has trained (not even by chance/accident)?!? Tough call. BTW, here are Mr. Rippetoe's thoughts on cycling {TLDR, he doesn't consider cyclists to be athletes... because reasons}
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-XYS7wYz2I
    I'll change sources all together if it pleases the court.

    Mark Twight:

    "Sports dominated by "stupid", non-technical movements and repetition (use any endurance sport as an example) seem to benefit from artificial training done in linear progression where artificial methods are used early in the cycle, and the focus shifts to more and more specific movements, duration, intensity as the peak approaches. Using cycling as an example is easy: after the break following a season of racing start by building strength, add limited riding, convert the strength to "artificial" power, reduce gym volume, increase bike volume, convert "artificial" strength/power to specific strength/power, increase bike volume more, add intervals to bike training, address all energy pathways used on bike, reduce gym volume to bare minimum, begin racing season, follow micro-cycles of over-reaching and recovery as the peak or "A race" approaches, do it, recover, repeat as needed until the end of the season. Alpine climbing can't follow this sort of program closely because unless one is living in the mountains most of the endurance and power-endurance training is necessarily "artificial". However, following the general trends is possible."

    https://gymjones.com/knowledge/18446...simultaneously

    While I do not have a copy of Extreme Alpinism in front of me, which, is one of the single best sources on training for endurance related activities (with some tweaking to transfer application from climbing to other sports), the strength based portion of the overall periodized program referenced above is heavily centered around the backsquat, regularly referred to as "the king of lifts" and programmed in a low volume (1-5 reps) high intensity manner.

    Bio:

    Trainer and Coach
    From 1999 to 2011 he trained various military assets US Department of Defense, including the 75th Ranger Regiment (1st, 2nd, 3rd Bat, RRC), Special Forces (5th, 10th, 19th, 20th groups), Tier One (Special Mission Units) from all branches of service as well as US Federal Agencies, including FBI, DEA and USIC. Courses covered operator fitness, mountain and winter mobility, self-rescue, high altitude adaptation, crisis nutrition, movement strategy, and cold-weather survival and clothing systems.

    Between 2005 and 2016, he designed and executed physical conditioning for the Warner Brothers productions of “300”, “Man of Steel”, “300: Rise of an Empire”, “The Man From U.N.C.L.E., “Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice”, “Wonder Woman” and “Justice League”.

    At Gym Jones – a local gym with broad international impact, which he founded – he prepared competitors for MMA and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (students medaled at national and international tournaments), coached endurance athletes for climbing, cycling, running and ski mountaineering.

    Sport:
    2014: Stony Creek Six Hour mountain bike race, 60 miles in six hours, 1st in 50+, 3rd overall

    2013: Power Of Four ski mountaineering race, 27 miles, 11,500’ elevation gain, 7hrs 32min

    2010: Tour de Park City (150 miles, 8000' elevation gain) in 6:57:36, 2nd place (Masters 35+B)

    2009: Logan-to-Jackson (206 miles, 7500' elevation gain) in 9hrs 37min, 12th place in Cat 4

    2007: Everest Challenge (215 miles, 29,000’ elevation gain) in 13hrs 47min

    2005: Trofeo Mezzalama ski mountaineering race, Italy

    1997-2003: IPSC and Three Gun competitor mentored by Rob Leatham and Brian Enos.

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    I'll also add that Rippetoe has built his career and reputation training "average joes", not professional athletes. From a philosophical standpoint, it's about making sensible Strength training accessible to people with jobs, stress, kids... sub par training conditions. Programs and training for professional athletes are very different since their lives are setup around training and often we are talking about genetically gifted athletes who respond somewhat differently to training than someone from the general population. So In That sense, sure, Rippetoe doesn't have big name pro athletes attached to his name, but, besides a short stint as the Strength programming director for Crossfit (which, he left in dispute over ideas), the programming and ideas are all based on how the average person, often with no training background, responds to training.


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    I have taken a few years off from the gym and have recently gotten back into it, and am really glad that I did. 44 years old. I am a high school teacher so I have a gym at school to use. I have been experimenting with a combination of lifting and commuting during the week, with longer rides during the week. My commute is 17 miles one way, with an 1100' climb in the middle. So, it's a bit of a commute. For legs I do back squats, dead lifts, and leg extensions.
    What I am trying is doing intervals that mimic the lifting phase I am in. For example, I am starting a 3 week "heavy" cycle and on one of the two days I am lifting I am doing big ring, low cadence intervals on the ride home. My weekday schedule looks like this:
    Mon-Lift
    Tue- Bike commute with intervals if the legs feel like it
    Wed-off
    Thurs-Lift and bike commute with intervals
    Fri-Off or easy commute
    I have noticed a pretty significant improvement on my rides already. I plan to do three heavy weeks and incorporate the big ring strength intervals, followed by three weeks with lower weight doing more speed/force lifts combined with 15+ second sprint interval repeats on the ride home. After that I plan to reduce lifting to one day per week for maintenance, while increasing the amount of riding. One thing that I have noticed is that I am able to do more "work" than I thought I could by taking my time and building up the hours slowly.

    Cheers!
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    I used to try to balance lifting and biking, but it's always a challenge. At my peak, my sqaut/deadlift/bench total was around 1,300 pounds, but I was SLOW on a bike. As I spent more time biking, I lost some of my strength but tried to maintain a balance.

    A few years ago I moved and the a lot of the local riders raced XC and eventually talked me in to racing. To prepare for this I gave up all of my lifting and just focused on the bike. I got a LOT faster, but noticed I lost most of my muscle and was fairly weak. Due to my work/life balance, I just didn't have time to lift and ride.

    The solution I found was training on rigid singlespeeds. Between the added work of holding on to a bike with no suspension and grinding up steep climbs at a low cadences, I'm now able to maintain a good amount of muscle without any lifting. It's not for everyone, but it's worked great for me. It's also very noticeable if I spend a few weeks on a full suspension. I can see a noticeable difference in muscle mass and definition, and when I switch back to the rigid bike it takes a while to build up the arm strength required to hold on, and the core/back/leg strength required for steep climbs.

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    I struggle with this every year. When the time changes in the fall I go back to lifting 4 days a week,one swim,and try to ride bikes outside on the weekends. I get stronger and usually gain 5-7 lbs and bemoan the weight gain and the presumed negative effect on my riding. But I like the added musculature and figure it makes me less injury prone.two months from turning 65,.have 2 single speeds,1 cross country dual suspension,27.5 hardtail,gravel grinder,and road bike.raced all of them them this year. 3400 miles on strava and 100,000 feet climbing. I feel pretty lucky.

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    I swear by weightlifting and consistently look for ways to use it to help my riding. I generally put in a large trg block in the off season and approach it similiar to a periodization model. I start off with very basic fundamental movements and move into longer circuits of functional fitness that include everything from plyo to agility, to compound Olympic lifts and sprinting. I am pretty lucky to have access to a facility where I can pretty much set up anything I want to achieve.

    I generally always leave gas in the tank, but if I am going to give a max effort on something it is generally a circuit I have in the hopper and something I have previously done so I can compare times.

    I look at the gym as a place to rectify the imbalances riding creates on the body and to prevent injury.

    I recently just finished a 7 week block by a company called Mountain Tactcial Athlete, the particular one I went towards was based on power athleticism, agility and time under tension. I gained 45lbs on my back squat and have never felt so agile in my life.

    I think training in the gym is imperative; but also a great place to potentially waste time and money if you don’t have a plan.

    Cheerd

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    I'll also add that Rippetoe has built his career and reputation training "average joes", not professional athletes. From a philosophical standpoint, it's about making sensible Strength training accessible to people with jobs, stress, kids... sub par training conditions. Programs and training for professional athletes are very different since their lives are setup around training and often we are talking about genetically gifted athletes who respond somewhat differently to training than someone from the general population. So In That sense, sure, Rippetoe doesn't have big name pro athletes attached to his name, but, besides a short stint as the Strength programming director for Crossfit (which, he left in dispute over ideas), the programming and ideas are all based on how the average person, often with no training background, responds to training.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    As you are implying, when someone is successful with "average Joe's" it says more about their motivational ability then their training knowledge.

    For an average Joe, a Cat 1 mountain bike racer, or an elite racers trying to get enough UCI points to start a world cup, someone motivating them to get out and train is much more important then someone giving them an optimal training plan.

    I would say same applies to gym work. If you think gym is important for racing then the most important thing is getting in there and doing a workout. The nitty gritty details of what type of squat you are doing really only matters once you get to the pointy end.

    Here is my take on gym work. Over the last 10 years I have coached over 50 elite level MTB racers in all displines. My experience is that the less gym work they did the better their race season went.

    A specific example last winter my wife really focused on gym work. Strength wise she made huge gains, could lift significantly more weight then she ever had. Unfortunately, this translated into zero power gains and another 3kg of muscle. Race results went from overall world cup champion to outside the top 15.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    As you are implying, when someone is successful with "average Joe's" it says more about their motivational ability then their training knowledge.

    For an average Joe, a Cat 1 mountain bike racer, or an elite racers trying to get enough UCI points to start a world cup, someone motivating them to get out and train is much more important then someone giving them an optimal training plan.

    I would say same applies to gym work. If you think gym is important for racing then the most important thing is getting in there and doing a workout. The nitty gritty details of what type of squat you are doing really only matters once you get to the pointy end.

    Here is my take on gym work. Over the last 10 years I have coached over 50 elite level MTB racers in all displines. My experience is that the less gym work they did the better their race season went.

    A specific example last winter my wife really focused on gym work. Strength wise she made huge gains, could lift significantly more weight then she ever had. Unfortunately, this translated into zero power gains and another 3kg of muscle. Race results went from overall world cup champion to outside the top 15.
    This raises an interesting discussion. At some point, ideal body types for a sport specificity supersede the "general" range for fitness and even become unhealthy unto themselves for the sake of performance. Highly competitive road cyclists are a great example. Many of these guys are incapable of doing a single push up. From a general standpoint, it's difficult to consider any male athlete an "athlete" when they lack the upper body strength to do a single push-up, which is something that almost any other pedestrian male (short of being obese) is easily capable of. Often times, they are so skinny and weak looking that it's kind of disgusting. On the flip side, you might say the same thing about a NFL center who weighs 300#. A NFL center walks in the room and you might easily mistake him for a fat man rather than a world class athlete.

    Perhaps these are two extremes, but it illustrates the point of defining fitness. Are we talking about absolute performance or general health, fitness and longevity? At what point is it sensible for a person to go "all in" and sacrifice their body for absolute sport performance? The "average joe" still needs to be able to pick up half of a couch come moving day, jack up their car to change a flat and fall down on icy steps without breaking a hip.

    So, for a person like me, I might do a bike race every now and then and I'll likely finish at the front of the middle. Ok. I'll do that with a 500#+ deadlift. I might kill an elk in the Backcountry 3 weeks later and haul it out of the mountains in three 200lbs trips. I might crash on my bike commute and not break a collarbone as a result of above average muscular around the shoulders. From a pure performance standpoint, you only need legs strong enough to turn the pedals for the steepest hill you'll climb, but most "average joes" have a host of other tasks, duties, athletic endeavors and applications in life where they'll benefit from being stronger than necessary to perform in a bike race, plus the fact that being a human stick on a pair of legs with great endurance isn't the most aesthetically pleasing bodytype for the general population.

    From that standpoint, there's some kind of sensible compromise there for most people. If you have a day job, you'll probably never compete in Cat 4 anyway. On the flip side, if you race bikes, you'll probably never hold any powerlifting records. There's some level of reasonable strength for most any athlete that is going to be of more overall benefit than sport specific hindrance. The NFL center would probably be healthier at 225# than 300#, but the job demands a 300#, explosive athlete as a 225# athlete would get mowed over. What does it make sense for a "average joe" amateur athlete to sacrifice in order to win local and regional amateur races? That's a great question with a wide array of individual answers.

    I'm not a huge fan of Crossfit, but you look at some of the generalists times set in races in relation to the strength levels, and it's easy to see that some new bars are being set, especially as you see more athletes moving into competitive Crossfit from other sports because there is more money and opportunity to be made in it due to the popularity. Though, again, that's not an entirely fair example because people who make it to the Crossfit games at this point do not have Day jobs.

    So, are we talking about absolute, uncompromising bike performance? Or, are we talking about being well rounded, balanced, healthy and good at riding bikes?

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    This raises an interesting discussion. At some point, ideal body types for a sport specificity supersede the "general" range for fitness and even become unhealthy unto themselves for the sake of performance. Highly competitive road cyclists are a great example. Many of these guys are incapable of doing a single push up. From a general standpoint, it's difficult to consider any male athlete an "athlete" when they lack the upper body strength to do a single push-up, which is something that almost any other pedestrian male (short of being obese) is easily capable of. Often times, they are so skinny and weak looking that it's kind of disgusting. On the flip side, you might say the same thing about a NFL center who weighs 300#. A NFL center walks in the room and you might easily mistake him for a fat man rather than a world class athlete.

    So, are we talking about absolute, uncompromising bike performance? Or, are we talking about being well rounded, balanced, healthy and good at riding bikes?
    The idea of professional cyclist not being able to push-ups is a myth. I actually would put money on the fact that most professional cyclist can do significantly more push-ups then most NFL centers.

    Just consider coach Ks training video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yQZhJx_mZQ

    I would say that good functional all around strength is really important. But there is a lot better ways to develop it that in the gym.
    -10 minutes morning core and upperbody work 6 times a week.
    -Cross training activities like XC skiing, rowing, swimming, ski-touring, hiking, running,...

    Gyms have been marketed as a place we need to go to become a good all around athlete. My experience is the best all around athletes, the people who can do anything and time with anybody never go to the gym.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  51. #51
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    Isn't "well rounded" subjective? Isn't "healthy" subjective, too? I mean, there are plenty of more or less sedentary people that are "healthy" by any objective measure.

    I don't ride and race bikes for my health. No competitive athlete does. Eliud Kipchoge isn't running a 2:03:05 at London for his "health". I'm fairly certain that the stress that I put my body under when I ride at falling-over-at-finish-line hard is not healthy, actually.

    Also, the idea that road cyclists are "weak" is a strange, ill-conceived notion. Do you have any documentation to prove that they can't do a pushup, other than the fact that they have very slender upper bodies? It doesn't take a lot of upper body strength to do a pushup, particularly if you're pretty light up top. It takes a good bit of muscular endurance, though, which has very little to do with bulk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Isn't "well rounded" subjective? Isn't "healthy" subjective, too? I mean, there are plenty of more or less sedentary people that are "healthy" by any objective measure.

    I don't ride and race bikes for my health. No competitive athlete does. Eliud Kipchoge isn't running a 2:03:05 at London for his "health". I'm fairly certain that the stress that I put my body under when I ride at falling-over-at-finish-line hard is not healthy, actually.

    Also, the idea that road cyclists are "weak" is a strange, ill-conceived notion. Do you have any documentation to prove that they can't do a pushup, other than the fact that they have very slender upper bodies? It doesn't take a lot of upper body strength to do a pushup, particularly if you're pretty light up top. It takes a good bit of muscular endurance, though, which has very little to do with bulk.
    I've observed this first hand, actually, but it was only once case. So, then, for the sake of argument, let's just classify competition road cyclists as having abnormally weak upper bodies.

    Also, there is this example of a former world class runner Ryan Hall who said that at his peak, he was too weak to stir a pot of chili.

    But, yes, you're onto the idea: what defines "fitness" and "healthy"? I'd argue that some measure of well rounded strength would apply -certainly more than the average road cyclists, but perhaps less than the NFL center. That's a wide range and varying factors would determine the individual needs. How much does one in fact need to sacrifice to be competitive and how much pays dividends?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    The idea of professional cyclist not being able to push-ups is a myth. I actually would put money on the fact that most professional cyclist can do significantly more push-ups then most NFL centers.

    Just consider coach Ks training video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yQZhJx_mZQ

    I would say that good functional all around strength is really important. But there is a lot better ways to develop it that in the gym.
    -10 minutes morning core and upperbody work 6 times a week.
    -Cross training activities like XC skiing, rowing, swimming, ski-touring, hiking, running,...

    Gyms have been marketed as a place we need to go to become a good all around athlete. My experience is the best all around athletes, the people who can do anything and time with anybody never go to the gym.
    The idea that the average professional cyclists could do more push-ups then the average NFL player is absolutely preposterous.

    Consider: a push up contest between Lance Armstrong in his prime vs. Hershel Walker in his prime. This is not even debatable. NFL linemen routinely bench press 225# for 50+ reps in the combine.

    I think that your perspective is so heavily skewed by cycling, that you are unable to see the see the bigger picture or recognize the scope and important of time in the gym. That's fine: stick to what you know and you don't have to go to the gym to be a great cyclists, but let's stop with the absurd arguments and admit the fact that cyclists are comparatively very weak when it comes to expressions and metrics of strength.

  54. #54
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    I did not say the average pro cyclist could do more than the average NFL player. I said the average pro cyclist could do more than the average centre. That was the position you were referring to. Stick to the facts of the conversation, don't make stuff up.

    You said "many of these guys can't do a push up." Which is completely false, as should be clear by the video of the three time olympian slamming 2 beers and doing 50 push-ups in under a minute.

    I am by no means a professional cyclist and I do not go to the gym at all. But at the age of 40 I can do a 100 push-ups in a row. But more importantly this week
    -I Skate skied 50km, classic skied 30km
    -Did a day of lift skiing in waste deep powder
    -Did a 10hr day of ski touring.
    -And had absolutely no problems shovelling snow for hours and hours on end.

    All around fitness and health is easily maintained without going to gym.

    And this is the XC Race forum. Posts here are going to be biased toward XC race performance.


    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    The idea that the average professional cyclists could do more push-ups then the average NFL player is absolutely preposterous.

    Consider: a push up contest between Lance Armstrong in his prime vs. Hershel Walker in his prime. This is not even debatable. NFL linemen routinely bench press 225# for 50+ reps in the combine.

    I think that your perspective is so heavily skewed by cycling, that you are unable to see the see the bigger picture or recognize the scope and important of time in the gym. That's fine: stick to what you know and you don't have to go to the gym to be a great cyclists, but let's stop with the absurd arguments and admit the fact that cyclists are comparatively very weak when it comes to expressions and metrics of strength.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    I'm convinced as well that weight lifting won't make you faster on the bike, it will do a lot of other things just not faster, these come to mind from personal experience:

    Stronger muscles
    Cure muscles imbalances
    Resilient or less prone to injury
    A stronger 1 sec peak force (went from 1400w to 1600w)
    Better body aesthetics
    Increase metabolism
    Glycogen depleted

    In my case as well I probably increased 2 kg and easily doubled my force, however ultimately I was slower on the bike. The good thing is once I began training mostly on my bike my body returned to the normal levels as well as my speed.

    For mountain bikers in particular I can see how weights have its place, for example to work out the core or work on balance, but its easy to see why pro road cyclists limit their weight workouts to a high degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    Here is my take on gym work. Over the last 10 years I have coached over 50 elite level MTB racers in all displines. My experience is that the less gym work they did the better their race season went.

    A specific example last winter my wife really focused on gym work. Strength wise she made huge gains, could lift significantly more weight then she ever had. Unfortunately, this translated into zero power gains and another 3kg of muscle. Race results went from overall world cup champion to outside the top 15.
    Just curious, did they follow the protocols that came out of the works by Ronnestad ( http://brinksport.dk/wp-content/uplo...e-athletes.pdf ; http://edzo.info.hu/images/KT.pdf ; ) ? So building to max strength with only ~5RM , e.g. heavy resistance training, during the off season and just some maintenance in the season?

    Looking at their work and their discussion I'd be surprised if their were large gains for XCO type of racing. Seems to be too short. Not talking about core work here.

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    Here's a good article by Steve Magness, a former national-level runner turned coach. Read the entire thing.

    Crossfit endurance, Tabata sprints, and why people just don’t get it – Science of Running
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    I did not say the average pro cyclist could do more than the average NFL player. I said the average pro cyclist could do more than the average centre. That was the position you were referring to. Stick to the facts of the conversation, don't make stuff up.

    You said "many of these guys can't do a push up." Which is completely false, as should be clear by the video of the three time olympian slamming 2 beers and doing 50 push-ups in under a minute.

    I am by no means a professional cyclist and I do not go to the gym at all. But at the age of 40 I can do a 100 push-ups in a row. But more importantly this week
    -I Skate skied 50km, classic skied 30km
    -Did a day of lift skiing in waste deep powder
    -Did a 10hr day of ski touring.
    -And had absolutely no problems shovelling snow for hours and hours on end.

    All around fitness and health is easily maintained without going to gym.

    And this is the XC Race forum. Posts here are going to be biased toward XC race performance.
    https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/201...n-push-contest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Here's a good article by Steve Magness, a former national-level runner turned coach. Read the entire thing.

    Crossfit endurance, Tabata sprints, and why people just donâ€t get it – Science of Running
    In some ways, this article supports Mark Twight's "No Free Lunch" piece after experimenting with short intervals for XC skiing. On the other hand, the piece references Ryan Hall -have you seen a pic of him lately? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.men...sly-ripped/amp

    From the people I have known who experimented with CFE, most say they were able to successfully complete endurance events, but lacked the ability to recover from such efforts ( I.e. They couldn't walk for a week after doing an event).

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    In some ways, this article supports Mark Twight's "No Free Lunch" piece after experimenting with short intervals for XC skiing. On the other hand, the piece references Ryan Hall -have you seen a pic of him lately? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.men...sly-ripped/amp

    From the people I have known who experimented with CFE, most say they were able to successfully complete endurance events, but lacked the ability to recover from such efforts ( I.e. They couldn't walk for a week after doing an event).
    Ironically, Magness touches on this at the bottom of his article.

    "And finally, I’d like to point out that finishing and racing are different. I’ve heard far too many times that so and so did crossfit and finished a marathon so it must work. No offense and sorry to sound elitist, but if I took off 6 months and did nothing I could still finish a marathon. It doesn’t mean my program of doing nothing worked."

    Right now, despite having not run more than a mile in two years, I could throw on a pair of running shoes and beat at least 70% of the field in the Chicago marathon. That's the truth. But, I'm not going to sit here and claim that mountain biking is the best training for marathon running.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    The idea of professional cyclist not being able to push-ups is a myth. I actually would put money on the fact that most professional cyclist can do significantly more push-ups then most NFL centers.

    Just consider coach Ks training video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yQZhJx_mZQ

    I would say that good functional all around strength is really important. But there is a lot better ways to develop it that in the gym.
    -10 minutes morning core and upperbody work 6 times a week.
    -Cross training activities like XC skiing, rowing, swimming, ski-touring, hiking, running,...

    Gyms have been marketed as a place we need to go to become a good all around athlete. My experience is the best all around athletes, the people who can do anything and time with anybody never go to the gym.
    Man, i just joined anytime fitness when i moved to Tucson, i swear everytime i go there, its full but nobody is actually working out, everyone has headphones in and is texting lol. Its kinda weird. When i was a gym rat 10 years ago it was about putting in work at a gym. Now its about posting on facebook how you are on the way to the gym, at the gym, and just "crushed" your workout. Or its dudes who are wearing jeans and chuck taylors trying to squat silly amounts of weight with crazy poor technique. Your point couldnt illustrate the current gym status any more.

    I used to be able to do 125 pushups non stop. About 25 pull ups. Thats the whole reason im back at the gym, pushups, pull ups, dips, and core. I might squat or deadlift like 100 pounds a few times also. I only use the gym because i dont have enough space at home.

    Ive challenged bodybuilders and powerlifters to push up and pull up contests. Never have had a taker. They can bench 450 but cant do 1 pull up.
    Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk

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    Relevance?

    Once upon a time I was an infantry platoon leader in the United States Army. By any objective measure of pure physical strength, I was the weakest member of my platoon. Bench, deadlift, squat, etc. I'm small, and I don't lift weights.

    But wait. When it came to things that actually mattered, such as the ability to run carrying a combat load, climbing a rope with a combat load, dragging a sled with a simulated casualty, a PT test, a ruck march (run), or a combat oriented obstacle course, I was far and away better than everyone else in my platoon. In some things, on the order of 30% faster than the next closest person. As it turns out, 1RM isn't exactly a great indicator of ability to perform aerobic exercise at a high level. Imagine that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Relevance?

    As it turns out, 1RM isn't exactly a great indicator of ability to perform aerobic exercise at a high level. Imagine that.
    I don't believe that was ever a claim. Only that increased strength, which is often measured in metrics of 1-5 rep maxes, since those expressions demonstrate maximal efforts, will buy a individual time until muscle failure at lighter weights. Depending on body type, a push up is right around 70% of ones body weight. There is a variable for longer limbs, torso etc, but that's pretty close. If a person weighs 200#, then they are pressing right around 140# on a single push-up. A person weighing 150# is pressing right around 105# on a push up. The dispute was a NFL nose guard vs a cyclist in push-ups. The above video shows a NFL nose guard doing a push up with an additional 256# on his back. If you calculate a body weight of 250#, then that is a Press factor of 175# + approximately another 175# of weight for push up expressing right around 350# weight, or another 100# above what would proportionally be expressed in a body weight push up. This is a good indication that the individual in question could do a lot of push-ups at his own body weight before experiencing muscle failure. That's how Strength works. That is the point. Cycling, of course, involves a significant amount of aerobic and anaerobic conditioning, which is often more of the limiting factor than strength alone, but that's not to say that a (well conditioned) cyclist couldn't benefit from some reasonable measure of increased leg strength.

    In our hypothetical example of cyclist vs nose guard in push-ups, the cyclists, presumably lacking in upper body strength (especially when compared to an athlete who specializes in generating pressing force), but presumably well conditioned, cannot rely purely on his aerobic/anaerobic conditioning alone to get him through a maximal level of comparative (to the nose guard) push-ups since pushing (pressing), is inherently an expression of strength and the muscular system will likely fail long before the cardiovascular system redlines due to this lack of upper body strength.

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    I just watched a video of Nino last week doing pretty heavy squats and barbell lunges. Surely, he's not doing that just to stroke his ego?

    One thing I'd like to touch on that seems to get over-looked when discussing heavy squatting and deadlifting. Arguably the most important benefits to heavy squats and deads, is the core strength gains that you get. Not to mention the test and GH increases that accompany those lifts. Increased core strength is never a bad thing and is certainly a benefit to riding as has been mentioned. You simply can't go from squatting 200 to 300 without significantly increasing your core strength.

    I've recently overhauled my workouts. I've backed way off of the powerlifting training and have started putting in the gym work to improve my bike fitness. I'm starting to get serious about this MTB stuff. I've got a decent base of strength but my primary focus now is dropping lbs to improve my power to weight ratio. However, my routine is still comprised primarily of squat, bench, deads, and standing overhead press (the Press) for set of 3-5 reps. Since I'm not trying to go pro, I want to maintain some strength and mass. Nobody really wants to look like a cyclist, do they?

    As Rip says, stronger people are harder to kill and generally more useful.
    Get out and go ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by felix1776 View Post
    I just watched a video of Nino last week doing pretty heavy squats and barbell lunges. Surely, he's not doing that just to stroke his ego?

    One thing I'd like to touch on that seems to get over-looked when discussing heavy squatting and deadlifting. Arguably the most important benefits to heavy squats and deads, is the core strength gains that you get. Not to mention the test and GH increases that accompany those lifts. Increased core strength is never a bad thing and is certainly a benefit to riding as has been mentioned. You simply can't go from squatting 200 to 300 without significantly increasing your core strength.

    I've recently overhauled my workouts. I've backed way off of the powerlifting training and have started putting in the gym work to improve my bike fitness. I'm starting to get serious about this MTB stuff. I've got a decent base of strength but my primary focus now is dropping lbs to improve my power to weight ratio. However, my routine is still comprised primarily of squat, bench, deads, and standing overhead press (the Press) for set of 3-5 reps. Since I'm not trying to go pro, I want to maintain some strength and mass. Nobody really wants to look like a cyclist, do they?

    As Rip says, stronger people are harder to kill and generally more useful.
    Can you add the video to your post? I totally here you about the side benefits of squatting, its where all our hormones are.

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    Are there any advocates of heavy lifting here that have an FTP of 5w/kg or higher at sea level?

    I understand why people do it; core strength, etc.

    Does anyone have actual, demonstrated improvement along the lines of:

    1) I was riding 15hrs a week, no gym, 4.5w/kg

    to

    2) I'm riding 12hrs, 3hrs gym, 5w/kg at same weight.



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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Can you add the video to your post? I totally here you about the side benefits of squatting, its where all our hormones are.

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    It was one of these two videos. BTW, his balance and coordination work is fascinating.

    https://youtu.be/xW-nWnl5hYk

    https://youtu.be/EC-tA1ZqWlU

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Are there any advocates of heavy lifting here that have an FTP of 5w/kg or higher at sea level?

    I understand why people do it; core strength, etc.

    Does anyone have actual, demonstrated improvement along the lines of:

    1) I was riding 15hrs a week, no gym, 4.5w/kg

    to

    2) I'm riding 12hrs, 3hrs gym, 5w/kg at same weight.



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    I'm really curious to hear the results as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by felix1776 View Post
    I'm really curious to hear the results as well.

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    I found a list of studies here. There is the cited and quoted study at the link, but scroll to the bottom and you'll see links for similar studies.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19855311/

    "In conclusion, maximal strength training for 8 weeks improved CE and efficiency and increased time to exhaustion at maximal aerobic power among competitive road cyclists, without change in maximal oxygen uptake, cadence, or body weight. Based on the results from the present study, we advise cyclists to include maximal strength training in their training programs."


    Now, I will add that, as discussed earlier, I think that strength training for the serious competitor makes the most sense in a periodized manner: a cycle (period) of strength training 1 to 6 times a year depending on the race schedule. This is in no way a substitute for time on the bike. A serious racer will still need to put 10,000 miles on their bike, but, rather, periods of time, say 6 weeks, where strength training is the primary focus of their training before moving onto other training focuses.

    I'll also add that we are talking maximal strength training, not hypertrophy/bodybuilding where mass is the focus. Sometimes there is confusion about this aspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Are there any advocates of heavy lifting here that have an FTP of 5w/kg or higher at sea level?

    I understand why people do it; core strength, etc.

    Does anyone have actual, demonstrated improvement along the lines of:

    1) I was riding 15hrs a week, no gym, 4.5w/kg

    to

    2) I'm riding 12hrs, 3hrs gym, 5w/kg at same weight.



    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
    I'm at ~4.8W/kg, indoors, at 900' above sea level. I improved by nearly 15% over 2017, logging 386 hours between MTB and trainer rides and losing 4 lbs. I should be above 5.0 by the end of winter and hope to approach 5.5, outdoors, by cyclocross nationals in December. My current training protocol is close to what I've been doing all year (other than indoor replacing my outdoor riding):

    - Bike Trainer: Every day, 7-8 hours/week. Hard Ride/Recovery Ride/Repeat.
    - Strength Training: 4-5 hours/week. 1 lower body session/week.
    - Indoor Rock Climbing: 4-6 hours/week.
    - Acro-Yoga: 4-6 hours/week (lots of leg work).

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelhmr View Post
    I'm at ~4.8W/kg, indoors, at 900' above sea level. I improved by nearly 15% over 2017, logging 386 hours between MTB and trainer rides and losing 4 lbs. I should be above 5.0 by the end of winter and hope to approach 5.5, outdoors, by cyclocross nationals in December. My current training protocol is close to what I've been doing all year (other than indoor replacing my outdoor riding):

    - Bike Trainer: Every day, 7-8 hours/week. Hard Ride/Recovery Ride/Repeat.
    - Strength Training: 4-5 hours/week. 1 lower body session/week.
    - Indoor Rock Climbing: 4-6 hours/week.
    - Acro-Yoga: 4-6 hours/week (lots of leg work).
    Woah, not trying to mock you or anything, but if you really achieve 5.5w/kg with that program you should write a book. That program seems unconventional to achieve such a high FTP.

    I'm just hoping to break over 5w/kg this season with 10-15 hours per week of cycling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDLover View Post
    Woah, not trying to mock you or anything, but if you really achieve 5.5w/kg with that program you should write a book. That program seems unconventional to achieve such a high FTP.

    I'm just hoping to break over 5w/kg this season with 10-15 hours per week of cycling.
    The biking and strength training are really the program. Other than an initial sweet spot period, my trainer rides are generally 45-60 minute structured intervals at 0.9-1.0 IF and are rather difficult. I also happen to be a very active individual and like to climb and do acro-yoga 2-3x/week, each. The acro involves a lot a single-leg work and core strength, but it doesn't quite tax them as much as my lower-body strength session (weighted pistol squats, hip thrusts and kettlebell swings).

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Are there any advocates of heavy lifting here that have an FTP of 5w/kg or higher at sea level?

    I understand why people do it; core strength, etc.

    Does anyone have actual, demonstrated improvement along the lines of:
    1) I was riding 15hrs a week, no gym, 4.5w/kg

    to

    2) I'm riding 12hrs, 3hrs gym, 5w/kg at same weight.
    In the elite ranks gym work is nearly universal. Even thought I question if it is necessary, I still have all my elite athletes go to the gym. Just about every guy/girl pushing over 5.5 and 5.0w/kg respectively spends some time in the gym. Riders at level do not do something just because, it is doing something for their performance. Question is why is beneficial.

    I think there are three primary reasons why it helps riders at the elite level
    1. It is a tool to increase total training volume.
    2. Adds intensity to training during times when the cycling training is low intensity.
    3. Adds a different training stress

    Nearly all the top mountain bikers in the world come from winter climates (which I find very interesting). During the winter months it isn't possible to hit the 20-25hr week volumes doing aerobic work only. There is only so much trainer riding you can do and regular 3-5hr workouts at -20C are not feasible. Add some gym work in and those volumes are achievable.

    Personally I use gym work with my elite athletes as part of periodization. Total weekly training load tends to be fairly constant, 20-24hrs/week when loading, but the make-up of that volume varies as their season progresses.
    -Preperation period (50% cycling, 35% cross-training, 15% gym)
    -General preperation (50%->70% cycling, 40%->20% cross-training, 10% gym)
    -Specific preperation (90% cycling, 10% cross).

    My concerns with gym are two things
    1. Weight gain, at the elite level 2kg is a big deal, that is winning a work versus placing outside of the top 5. At "joe" level, not as big of concern.
    2. Injuries. There are way too many weight room injuries. Any benefits you might have acquired through gym work are more then lost by a single injury. This is actually my primary concern with the emphasis on the importance of gym work being max-strength, I am not sure the injury risk is worth it.

    Generally, I do think that gym carefully periodized with other training can have a positive effect. But I don't think it is a corner stone of training, or for a "Joe" overall personal health.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Great info in this thread!

    LMN, what do you mean by saying that you don't think that gym work is needed "...for a "Joe" overall personal health."? Are you talking injury risk or something beyond that?

    I know after I started to hit the gym, I got a lot less soreness (especially lower back) from riding. Plus my core strength improved tremendously. But I can see that if not done carefully, it can lead to injury.

    I'm also curious, how does one gain weight from lifting if calories remain constant?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    In the elite ranks gym work is nearly universal. Even thought I question if it is necessary, I still have all my elite athletes go to the gym. Just about every guy/girl pushing over 5.5 and 5.0w/kg respectively spends some time in the gym. Riders at level do not do something just because, it is doing something for their performance. Question is why is beneficial.

    I think there are three primary reasons why it helps riders at the elite level
    1. It is a tool to increase total training volume.
    2. Adds intensity to training during times when the cycling training is low intensity.
    3. Adds a different training stress

    Nearly all the top mountain bikers in the world come from winter climates (which I find very interesting). During the winter months it isn't possible to hit the 20-25hr week volumes doing aerobic work only. There is only so much trainer riding you can do and regular 3-5hr workouts at -20C are not feasible. Add some gym work in and those volumes are achievable.

    Personally I use gym work with my elite athletes as part of periodization. Total weekly training load tends to be fairly constant, 20-24hrs/week when loading, but the make-up of that volume varies as their season progresses.
    -Preperation period (50% cycling, 35% cross-training, 15% gym)
    -General preperation (50%->70% cycling, 40%->20% cross-training, 10% gym)
    -Specific preperation (90% cycling, 10% cross).

    My concerns with gym are two things
    1. Weight gain, at the elite level 2kg is a big deal, that is winning a work versus placing outside of the top 5. At "joe" level, not as big of concern.
    2. Injuries. There are way too many weight room injuries. Any benefits you might have acquired through gym work are more then lost by a single injury. This is actually my primary concern with the emphasis on the importance of gym work being max-strength, I am not sure the injury risk is worth it.

    Generally, I do think that gym carefully periodized with other training can have a positive effect. But I don't think it is a corner stone of training, or for a "Joe" overall personal health.
    How are these people getting hurt so often? If a person gets hurt in the weight room, it's almost always going too heavy and/or poor form. Both of these things are easily remedied. Freak things do occur but, in my experience, it's pretty tough to get hurt if you're being smart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by felix1776 View Post
    How are these people getting hurt so often? If a person gets hurt in the weight room, it's almost always going too heavy and/or poor form. Both of these things are easily remedied. Freak things do occur but, in my experience, it's pretty tough to get hurt if you're being smart.
    The most common injury that I see is a back strain while doing squats or dead-lifts. And yes, the cause is too heavy combined with poor form.

    MidwestMTB I don't think you would gain weight from the gym if your calories remained the same. But I think for most, the calories don't stay the same.

    I generally separate core and range of motion work from gym. Doing balance, core work and body weight resistance exercise is quite a bit different then maximal strength training.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    This thread is very back and forth. How do we know what is legit info and what isnt?

    I want to add "strength training" but not much weight. I worked hard to get from 190 to 155, now i think i need about 5 pounds of "armor" added back on. I feel weak when i slam into a tree, i used bounce off them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Very much disagree with your post. The OP's goals are to be stronger, more injury resistant, and a better mountain biker so traditional back squats are in order. Along with dead lifts, and presses, and chins/rows.
    Presses..Bench and pushups?

    Chins/rows.."pull/chin ups"? and barbell rows?

    Im following your posts,poncho,felix and Lmn the most trying to meet in the middle.

    Im definitely not isolating any muscle.

    Is a power clean the same as a clean and jerk? I need to research those on google now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nowlan View Post
    I swear by weightlifting and consistently look for ways to use it to help my riding. I generally put in a large trg block in the off season and approach it similiar to a periodization model. I start off with very basic fundamental movements and move into longer circuits of functional fitness that include everything from plyo to agility, to compound Olympic lifts and sprinting. I am pretty lucky to have access to a facility where I can pretty much set up anything I want to achieve.

    I generally always leave gas in the tank, but if I am going to give a max effort on something it is generally a circuit I have in the hopper and something I have previously done so I can compare times.

    I look at the gym as a place to rectify the imbalances riding creates on the body and to prevent injury.

    I recently just finished a 7 week block by a company called Mountain Tactcial Athlete, the particular one I went towards was based on power athleticism, agility and time under tension. I gained 45lbs on my back squat and have never felt so agile in my life.

    I think training in the gym is imperative; but also a great place to potentially waste time and money if you don’t have a plan.

    Cheerd
    Sprinting? Like go to the local hs track and run sprints?

    All jokes aside..I used to do that when i couldn't hang out with mary jane. I would go to the track and run sprints until i collapsed on the track. Ive never felt higher or stronger in my life. I would have to just lay in the grass and let my body handle the INSANE amount of hormones pumping through me. I always tell people, i would rather go run a bunch of 100 yd dashes then run miles. The runners high is amplified by an amount you cant quantity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    The idea that the average professional cyclists could do more push-ups then the average NFL player is absolutely preposterous.

    Consider: a push up contest between Lance Armstrong in his prime vs. Hershel Walker in his prime. This is not even debatable. NFL linemen routinely bench press 225# for 50+ reps in the combine.

    I think that your perspective is so heavily skewed by cycling, that you are unable to see the see the bigger picture or recognize the scope and important of time in the gym. That's fine: stick to what you know and you don't have to go to the gym to be a great cyclists, but let's stop with the absurd arguments and admit the fact that cyclists are comparatively very weak when it comes to expressions and metrics of strength.
    Dude, im trying to take you serious because you speak well on your points. NOBODY has ever done over 50 reps at 225 at the combine. Larry Allen may have after he was in the pros on the cowboys. No college football player has hit 50 reps. I cant let that go. They routinely hit in the 30s. The non linemen have been between 0-20. An insane strong running back or linebacker might hit 25. I see the point you are trying to make but its a cloudy one. Football players are mostly unhealthy, obese, about to fall over dead, "athletes".


    Edit. I said nobody has ever hit 50. One guy did. EVER. Only 16 EVER have hit 40.

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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelhmr View Post
    I'm at ~4.8W/kg, indoors, at 900' above sea level. I improved by nearly 15% over 2017, logging 386 hours between MTB and trainer rides and losing 4 lbs. I should be above 5.0 by the end of winter and hope to approach 5.5, outdoors, by cyclocross nationals in December. My current training protocol is close to what I've been doing all year (other than indoor replacing my outdoor riding):

    - Bike Trainer: Every day, 7-8 hours/week. Hard Ride/Recovery Ride/Repeat.
    - Strength Training: 4-5 hours/week. 1 lower body session/week.
    - Indoor Rock Climbing: 4-6 hours/week.
    - Acro-Yoga: 4-6 hours/week (lots of leg work).
    Care to share your strength training program?
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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    In the elite ranks gym work is nearly universal. Even thought I question if it is necessary, I still have all my elite athletes go to the gym. Just about every guy/girl pushing over 5.5 and 5.0w/kg respectively spends some time in the gym. Riders at level do not do something just because, it is doing something for their performance. Question is why is beneficial.

    I think there are three primary reasons why it helps riders at the elite level
    1. It is a tool to increase total training volume.
    2. Adds intensity to training during times when the cycling training is low intensity.
    3. Adds a different training stress

    Nearly all the top mountain bikers in the world come from winter climates (which I find very interesting). During the winter months it isn't possible to hit the 20-25hr week volumes doing aerobic work only. There is only so much trainer riding you can do and regular 3-5hr workouts at -20C are not feasible. Add some gym work in and those volumes are achievable.

    Personally I use gym work with my elite athletes as part of periodization. Total weekly training load tends to be fairly constant, 20-24hrs/week when loading, but the make-up of that volume varies as their season progresses.
    -Preperation period (50% cycling, 35% cross-training, 15% gym)
    -General preperation (50%->70% cycling, 40%->20% cross-training, 10% gym)
    -Specific preperation (90% cycling, 10% cross).

    My concerns with gym are two things
    1. Weight gain, at the elite level 2kg is a big deal, that is winning a work versus placing outside of the top 5. At "joe" level, not as big of concern.
    2. Injuries. There are way too many weight room injuries. Any benefits you might have acquired through gym work are more then lost by a single injury. This is actually my primary concern with the emphasis on the importance of gym work being max-strength, I am not sure the injury risk is worth it.

    Generally, I do think that gym carefully periodized with other training can have a positive effect. But I don't think it is a corner stone of training, or for a "Joe" overall personal health.
    Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is, I have 12-15hrs a week to train these days.

    If I had 25-30, I'd dedicate some time to strength/core training.

    As it is, I'll do some planks and whatnot for 15-20min while drinking coffee and reading the news a couple days a week. If I had time and money to ride 20hrs+ a week THEN drive to a gym, pay someone to teach me how to lift properly, and then actually execute, I would. I don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Dude, im trying to take you serious because you speak well on your points. NOBODY has ever done over 50 reps at 225 at the combine. Larry Allen may have after he was in the pros on the cowboys. No college football player has hit 50 reps. I cant let that go. They routinely hit in the 30s. The non linemen have been between 0-20. An insane strong running back or linebacker might hit 25. I see the point you are trying to make but its a cloudy one. Football players are mostly unhealthy, obese, about to fall over dead, "athletes".

    Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk
    You're right. It's more in the 30-40 rep range. I see that the record is 49 reps. I would have presumed it to be a little higher, but sometimes it's easy to forget that football players have a lot of physical demands on them besides strength. They have to be exceptionally explosive and agile for their size. That being said, looking at some of the bench press claims for NFL linemen, is expect we'd see more reps since 225# is often in The 50-60% range and the players have ample notice to prepare for the test. In some ways, it's kind of a random and silly test.

    I feel like if powerlifting and Oly lifting could pull from the NFL pool that America would dominate both sports on the global stage rather than be largely an embarrassment -especially in Oly lifting. The NFL because it pays so well, tends to suck up the genetic talent that, say, in China, competes in weightlifting.

    I was trying to find some info on NFL lift metrics, but it seems to be largely rumor based numbers i.e. So and so squatted 650 in college, but it's not as if that lift was judged to any set of standards and NFL metrics are largely measured on explosiveness: vertical jump (some of which are insanely high), 40 yard dash and agility drills. I believe the linemen are the only ones who do the bench press test? Or do D backs do that, too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Care to share your strength training program?
    Sure. I was a competitive powerlifter 10+ years ago and continued to lift after that. However, I've gotten away from the powerlifting and Olympic lifts to adapt a routine that would give me similar benefits with less risk and stress to my joints/back. It's sort of bodyweight+ and I'm able to do most of my workouts in my office during lunch. Typical week would be.

    Sunday (pushing focus): handstand push-ups, pseudo-planche push ups w/bands, dumbbell tricep extension, shoulder raise complex (side/front/rear).
    Monday (leg focus): weighted pistol squats, 1-leg hip thrusts, core circuit (planks, leg lifts, circles, V-ups), 2-handed heavy kettlebell swings.
    Tuesday (pulling focus): weighted pull ups, upright rows, horizontal ring rows, dumbbell shrug.
    Wednesday: off
    Thursday: similar to Sunday
    Friday: similar to Tuesday
    Sat: off

    Reps are in the 5-8 range for most movements and 3 sets of each. 12-reps for shoulder raises and sets of 20 for the kettlebell swings (ends up feeling more like a sprint). On many of the lifts I'll do a 4s negative on each rep. I'll also do grip work 2-3x/week while watching TV.

    As for progression, I log all of my work and try to add an additional rep or more resistance each week. On pistols I keep it at 6 reps and add 1/2lb each week. If everything goes right I'll hit +100x6 sometime this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    You're right. It's more in the 30-40 rep range. I see that the record is 49 reps. I would have presumed it to be a little higher, but sometimes it's easy to forget that football players have a lot of physical demands on them besides strength. They have to be exceptionally explosive and agile for their size. That being said, looking at some of the bench press claims for NFL linemen, is expect we'd see more reps since 225# is often in The 50-60% range and the players have ample notice to prepare for the test. In some ways, it's kind of a random and silly test.

    I feel like if powerlifting and Oly lifting could pull from the NFL pool that America would dominate both sports on the global stage rather than be largely an embarrassment -especially in Oly lifting. The NFL because it pays so well, tends to suck up the genetic talent that, say, in China, competes in weightlifting.

    I was trying to find some info on NFL lift metrics, but it seems to be largely rumor based numbers i.e. So and so squatted 650 in college, but it's not as if that lift was judged to any set of standards and NFL metrics are largely measured on explosiveness: vertical jump (some of which are insanely high), 40 yard dash and agility drills. I believe the linemen are the only ones who do the bench press test? Or do D backs do that, too?
    Every single player at the combine bench presses, including kickers. A kicker did 25 one year.

    Tom Brady did like 5 reps, its a big running joke. He was the slowest player and weakest at his combine. These are kids really not grown men. The real numbers are after they are pros. Larry Allen would have won every gold medal in lifting history if he wanted too. Hes legit one of the strongest humans to ever walk the earth. Pretty sure he got close to benching 1000lbs at one point. They had to have the strength coaches hang on the bar to add enough weight because they ran out of 100lb plates.

    I am hearing you on lifting strong amounts i just cant correlate the nfl to cycling. Most nfl players die around 50 years old. If they were such natural athletes they wouldnt be dying like that. They overtax their systems to a quick and painful death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelhmr View Post
    Sure. I was a competitive powerlifter 10+ years ago and continued to lift after that. However, I've gotten away from the powerlifting and Olympic lifts to adapt a routine that would give me similar benefits with less risk and stress to my joints/back. It's sort of bodyweight+ and I'm able to do most of my workouts in my office during lunch. Typical week would be.

    Sunday (pushing focus): handstand push-ups, pseudo-planche push ups w/bands, dumbbell tricep extension, shoulder raise complex (side/front/rear).
    Monday (leg focus): weighted pistol squats, 1-leg hip thrusts, core circuit (planks, leg lifts, circles, V-ups), 2-handed heavy kettlebell swings.
    Tuesday (pulling focus): weighted pull ups, upright rows, horizontal ring rows, dumbbell shrug.
    Wednesday: off
    Thursday: similar to Sunday
    Friday: similar to Tuesday
    Sat: off

    Reps are in the 5-8 range for most movements and 3 sets of each. 12-reps for shoulder raises and sets of 20 for the kettlebell swings (ends up feeling more like a sprint). On many of the lifts I'll do a 4s negative on each rep. I'll also do grip work 2-3x/week while watching TV.
    What are your cycling goals with that program? That seems like a strength routine i would do to be in Calvin Klein ads or crossfit. I got ahold of the Navy Seal workout guide second hand.

    They do things like...

    Pull ups
    2-4-6-8-10-8-6-4-2 without letting go of the bar, they hang and rest. At one point i could do this workout. I weighed 200lbs and looked like an NFL free safety. All off body weight exercises. Upside down pushups, one arm pull ups, alligator pushups, lunges, squats, jump rope, swimming, running sprints all kinds of things like this. I would be just as sore as Olympic lifts. If i did this now or a routine like yours i couldnt ride the same day or the next.

    How can someone ride 20hrs and lift is what im trying to determine?


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    ^ in terms of NFL athletes, it's their explosiveness that really sets them apart. Fast twitch muscles are largely genetic.

    If you take the average male, the standing vertical jump is around 17-20 inches, I believe. Through training, the average athlete will only be able to add about 20% to that jump. That's about it. But, if you look at the SVJs NFL players out up, it's often unbelievable. Your average joe can train his life life and never jump higher than 24 inches and some of these NFL guys are well into the 30s.
    As for dying early, well, they get beat to shit.

    Anyway, the comparison was two extremes: ultra competitive road cyclists and NFL center. The body type that it takes for either is often not within the normal range of "healthy" and neither are really functional in much of any athletic endeavor outside of their immediate sport. I suppose you could make the case that the NFL nose guard would be a good arm wrestler and the roadie would be a good runner, but it shows two very specialized athletes. The cyclists could generally benefit from some strength, but his performance might suffer a little bit in a ultra competitive realm. The center might benefit from some mass loss but his functional performance might suffer slightly in an ultra competitive realm. The average joe amateur cyclists has no need to sacrifice his/her body in way that makes them nonfunctional when not on a bike. If you can perform up to your standards and be stronger than you are now, why not be stronger? The OP was asking about lifting and riding. Some responses offered advice for the two, others claimed that strength training is N/A. Hence the devolution into tangents, interesting as the discussion might be.

    I'm not going to claim that the world's most elite cyclists need to squat 300# (which is well within the potential for the average male with proper training), only that the average joe can benefit from general strength training and that these benefits outweigh any potential drawbacks (if there are any), that there is indeed a sensible way to combine the two and that the gym does indeed have a place in any athlete's training regiment.

    All tangents and arguments aside, that is my contention.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    What are your cycling goals with that program? That seems like a strength routine i would do to be in Calvin Klein ads or crossfit. I got ahold of the Navy Seal workout guide second hand.

    They do things like...

    Pull ups
    2-4-6-8-10-8-6-4-2 without letting go of the bar, they hang and rest. At one point i could do this workout. I weighed 200lbs and looked like an NFL free safety. All off body weight exercises. Upside down pushups, one arm pull ups, alligator pushups, lunges, squats, jump rope, swimming, running sprints all kinds of things like this. I would be just as sore as Olympic lifts. If i did this now or a routine like yours i couldnt ride the same day or the next.

    How can someone ride 20hrs and lift is what im trying to determine?


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    I suppose my cycling goals are to 1) increase FTP, 2) increase anaerobic work capacity and 3) decrease recovery time. My strength program is designed to make me an all-around athlete for my other activities (climbing & acro) as well. I suppose if I was a professional cyclist I would decrease some of the upper body work or drop the 2nd pushing & pulling days, but as is it helps me handle the bike better. It's not as if it is costing me additional time, as I get paid 1hr for lunch whether I exercise or not.

    I used to do lower-body 2x/week, but as my cycling workouts got harder I found it more productive overall to drop to 1x/week. I'll stick with it until it stops working.

  89. #89
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    Threads like this, and then articles like the one below, pull me in two different directions.

    Diagnosis: How many base miles do you really need? | VeloNews.com
    Death from Below.

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    Why two different directions? Base miles and heavy resistance training is highly complementary. At least according to our current scientific understanding (review paper posted here previously ). Of the three key markers of endurance performance, vo2max, LT, and economy, the latter is affected mostly by heavy resistance training. The same for base miles, they have a huge effect on economy. So you can train the same key parameter from two angles.

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    Which one of these are you guys talking about for cycling?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bjymPjlXf3Q

    I got ahold of an Olympic training book from the 80s in HS and set up a program for playing basketball i wanted to be able to dunk off two feet not just one. It was using the front squat and hack squat a lot for explosiveness. Wonder how that translates?

    Edit, i just went and lifted. The power clean is too sketchy if you dont have the technique nailed. Staying away. I also forgot how much cardio lifting was, felt like i was riding uphill lol. Prob hit high z3/ low z4 hr just lifting weights. I did core, deadlifts, front squats, hack squats, dips, pull ups, overhead barbell press. Gassed.

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    Last edited by LaneDetroitCity; 01-02-2018 at 05:46 PM.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Presses..Bench and pushups?

    Chins/rows.."pull/chin ups"? and barbell rows?

    Im following your posts,poncho,felix and Lmn the most trying to meet in the middle.

    Im definitely not isolating any muscle.

    Is a power clean the same as a clean and jerk? I need to research those on google now.

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    First, skip the cleans in any form. They give a great full body workout but are a very advanced lift. Walk before you can run. Ace the squat, dead lift, over head press.... first.

    For your other questions...

    Presses. Yes, with a barbell. Ditch the dumbbells. Bench press and over head press. I alternate. Say I lift once every 3 days, I'll do either or. They work similar areas, but are different enough to hit some different muscle groups in ways to make you a better all-round athlete.

    Pull exercises. Chin ups. IMO doesn't matter how you do them, over grip, under grip, behind the head, in front (standard chin up). The other big pull exercise is the bent over row. Somewhat technical so don't rush into that one. On my squat day I will use the bent over row as my pull as it works the lower back a lot. On my dead lift day I will do the pull up flavor as my lower back has already been hit hard by the dead lift.

    Push ups are good but unless you have your kid or wife sit on your back you just don't get the resistance you would from barbell presses.


    Again, like I post earlier, there is no secret revealed in this site, but it is a very good resource on the "how to" of lifting. I'd advise not following the full routine as prescribed as it is too focused on strength training alone, assuming you are working on other facets of fitness

    https://stronglifts.com/5x5/

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    Much wisdom...

    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post

    ...Perhaps these are two extremes, but it illustrates the point of defining fitness. Are we talking about absolute performance or general health, fitness and longevity? At what point is it sensible for a person to go "all in" and sacrifice their body for absolute sport performance? The "average joe" still needs to be able to pick up half of a couch come moving day, jack up their car to change a flat and fall down on icy steps without breaking a hip.

    So, for a person like me, I might do a bike race every now and then and I'll likely finish at the front of the middle. Ok. I'll do that with a 500#+ deadlift. I might kill an elk in the Backcountry 3 weeks later and haul it out of the mountains in three 200lbs trips. I might crash on my bike commute and not break a collarbone as a result of above average muscular around the shoulders. From a pure performance standpoint, you only need legs strong enough to turn the pedals for the steepest hill you'll climb, but most "average joes" have a host of other tasks, duties, athletic endeavors and applications in life where they'll benefit from being stronger than necessary to perform in a bike race, plus the fact that being a human stick on a pair of legs with great endurance isn't the most aesthetically pleasing bodytype for the general population.

    From that standpoint, there's some kind of sensible compromise there for most people. If you have a day job, you'll probably never compete in Cat 4 anyway. On the flip side, if you race bikes, you'll probably never hold any powerlifting records. There's some level of reasonable strength for most any athlete that is going to be of more overall benefit than sport specific hindrance. The NFL center would probably be healthier at 225# than 300#, but the job demands a 300#, explosive athlete as a 225# athlete would get mowed over. What does it make sense for a "average joe" amateur athlete to sacrifice in order to win local and regional amateur races? That's a great question with a wide array of individual answers...

    ...So, are we talking about absolute, uncompromising bike performance? Or, are we talking about being well rounded, balanced, healthy and good at riding bikes?

    For the non-pro, fit biker, looking to get in better shape through strength training, that post sums it up very well.

    May I draw attention to something you only slightly mentioned? Longevity.

    Keeping a strong and injury resistant body helps ensure you can not only race and ride hard, but that you can do it for the long haul. I'm very glad I stuck with strength training through the years as I'm still have the motor/machine to do what I do. Even if it meant not always leading the pack on race days.

    My kids, after watching some super hero movie inevitably ask me, "Dad, what would you rather be? The strongest like Superman? The fastest like Flash? How about being able to fly?"

    I always respond, "None. I'd want to be the toughest. Like Rocky."

  94. #94
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    I wonder if there is a positive psychological effect, as well. I find that when I strength train, and see the inevitable improvements, I am more motivated for the next steps in the training program.
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    Quote Originally Posted by free-agent View Post
    I wonder if there is a positive psychological effect, as well. I find that when I strength train, and see the inevitable improvements, I am more motivated for the next steps in the training program.
    Feeling "strong" = feeling confident?
    I'd certainly buy into it.

    Could be that You tack on some strength gains and then find yourself eager to apply them. I have a friend who was never an athlete at all but after years of me nagging him he finally started a Strength program at 40. After 2-3 months, he described feeling that his body had a completely new and different "architecture" then before. He felt upright and erect when he walked. He picked things up with a new found sense of confidence. He generally felt positive about the way his body felt. If you consider that endurance based athletes are often left beat down and utterly depleted following endurance events, doing a strength phase of training would be psychologically a good way to "rebuild" the foundation, allowing them to feel (and be) strong as they move through their training phases in preparation for the next endurance event.

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    Probably the #1 reason that I have stuck with lifting and seeking out new activities over the last 20 years is the positive effect it has had on me, mentally. Exercise is physical and mental therapy for me and keeps me at equilibrium. Minimal stress and gloom in an (increasingly) insane world. Or it could just be the endorphins? Why endorphins (and exercise) make you happy - CNN

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by quax View Post
    Why two different directions? Base miles and heavy resistance training is highly complementary. At least according to our current scientific understanding (review paper posted here previously ). Of the three key markers of endurance performance, vo2max, LT, and economy, the latter is affected mostly by heavy resistance training. The same for base miles, they have a huge effect on economy. So you can train the same key parameter from two angles.
    I agree. The two are complimentry.

    Plus, I don't think you can effectively do higher intensities while you are doing heavy lifting.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Does lifting count as hours/volume. If im trying to do ~20hrs a week, does that mean that i ride 18 and lift 2 for 20. Or ride 20 and lifting is separate, or adding the 2 lift days makes 22?

    I know during lifting i was breathing as hard as a steady workout for an hour. Seemed like cardio to me and weights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    First, skip the cleans in any form. They give a great full body workout but are a very advanced lift. Walk before you can run. Ace the squat, dead lift, over head press.... first.

    For your other questions...

    Presses. Yes, with a barbell. Ditch the dumbbells. Bench press and over head press. I alternate. Say I lift once every 3 days, I'll do either or. They work similar areas, but are different enough to hit some different muscle groups in ways to make you a better all-round athlete.

    Pull exercises. Chin ups. IMO doesn't matter how you do them, over grip, under grip, behind the head, in front (standard chin up). The other big pull exercise is the bent over row. Somewhat technical so don't rush into that one. On my squat day I will use the bent over row as my pull as it works the lower back a lot. On my dead lift day I will do the pull up flavor as my lower back has already been hit hard by the dead lift.

    Push ups are good but unless you have your kid or wife sit on your back you just don't get the resistance you would from barbell presses.


    Again, like I post earlier, there is no secret revealed in this site, but it is a very good resource on the "how to" of lifting. I'd advise not following the full routine as prescribed as it is too focused on strength training alone, assuming you are working on other facets of fitness

    https://stronglifts.com/5x5/
    Thank you. I had actually reached that same conclusion on cleans after watching some videos and attempting them just with an empty barbell. The whole snap the hips/jump with weight seems too easy to wrench your back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Does lifting count as hours/volume. If im trying to do ~20hrs a week, does that mean that i ride 18 and lift 2 for 20. Or ride 20 and lifting is separate, or adding the 2 lift days makes 22?

    I know during lifting i was breathing as hard as a steady workout for an hour. Seemed like cardio to me and weights.

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    Depends on how you add it up. If you are striving for 20 hours a week of total training volume, then possibly. If you desire 20 hours a week of sport specific training, then I'd only count what you do on your bike. Or it could be that you are trying to cap yourself at 20 hours a week of total volume because anymore is counter productive. I think you'll just have to experiment with what constitutes "total volume", recovery management and progress. If you feel beat up or rundown after a recovery day, then you are likely getting too much training volume, or (perhaps a better way to think about it) you are under recovered. I usually consider sleep habits and eating practices before questioning volume.

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