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Is lack of sponsorship the reason?

3K views 55 replies 18 participants last post by  whybotherme 
#1 ·
Why is it that there are so few women racing XC in Socal? The fields are super small accross the board! After seeing such shallow fields accross the board at the US Cup Unification race at Bonelli Park I feel that IF there is anything we can do, we need to do it NOW. The few women that show up don't have any competition and that is just not fun.

I have hypothesized that it is simply due to the fact that as the price of racing goes up, and the level of support available goes down, women are the first racers to get squeezed out. (I really don't want to go into the socio-political reasons I feel back up this theory, or my hypothesis that this trend will continue into the men's fields.) Support for the Elite riders is pretty scarce so I assume it isn't any better for the lower categories.

If I am incorrect with my hypothesis and women have the bikes/funds to race, is there anything that other racers can do to help? I know my wife Allison would love to help encourage more women to participate, and I would love to support that effort as well.

Maybe some open discussion can get things moving in the right direction. Have at it....



As a side note, Allison will be speaking at an upcoming RockNRoad Dirt Divas gathering. We aren't quite sure what to expect as this is her first time trying to do something like this. We are hoping that maybe some other women will be energized by the idea that some focused training and a bit of discipline can yeild some pretty cool results, even for someone with no athletic history whatsoever.
 
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#27 ·
Justin. I am going to have to disagree with you about the bike.

Catharine went to worlds her first year on a bike that retailed for under $2000 and placed 46th. The next year she went on a $6000 bike and was 53rd. It is possible to be competitive in the elite category on a "relatively" inexpensive bike (I know many elites who do race on the $2000 bike). Replacing your bike every year is nice, but it is not necessary. Sorry back to topic.

I also think this is also about men's racing. Women's racing is the Canary in the Coal Mine, the drop in numbers reflect the struggle with XC racing in general.

I think Duke is off the mark on his comments. The real trouble is with the race series. Take a look at the US-cup, it is a terrible series. From scheduling to venues.

First: the series is structures so it does take $25 000 to do it. The races are huge distances apart and are not clustered in the schedule. The only two races that were back-to-back were Vermont and Windham. There needs to be two three week blocks of racing, where all the races are with-in driving distance. Ie. Three races in California, three races in the North East.

2nd: the promoters have to put some work into their courses. In 15 years of racing I have only seen two courses worse then the Mt. Snow course was this year ( Mt. Snow use to be a wicked course, it is just blown out after years of racing and no maintenance). Courses need to be fun, not for the elites but for the people who are entering the sport. If Mt. Snow this year was my first race it would have probably been my last.

Really Justin, you guys need to race Canada Cups next year. The series is way better, superior courses, superior race scheduling, way more prize money (Allison could actually make money racing), and it is a better series for developing elites.
 
#28 ·
whybotherme said:
i had a very long response typed up but lost it... :madman:

basically the average racer gets MSRP minus 10-15%. that is what we WERE getting.
Ouch, that screams of a lack of local support. Sticker price (which is always less than MSRP) minus 10-15% is what anyone walking in off the street that asks for a deal gets around here.

no you cannot build a race worthy HT for $2k if you are an average racer (assuming the above)
Stumpy

Kula

I'm sure there's lots more. I just priced a custom curtlo with XT and a reba for around $2500.
in women's MTB racing the fields are so small regionally that the results are dismissed, they aren't a "real win". a win at Rim Nordic (despite a great course) is not a "real win" for a female pro.

1 year of training isn't a very long time. a dedicated female can exceed the bounds of local pro racing in Socal in 1 year of training (only making this statement based on observation). after that the cost goes to the $25k+ level.
I guess the socal scene is a lot different than my experiences in BC (and a bit in Utah). Here the women are rippin' fast. Unless there is a national or world cup conflict, you can bet that the womens field will be seeded with at least a few top pros, especially in the shoulder seasons. Though I guess that is the benefit of having the mildest climate in the country.

oh and by the way... $25k doesn't get you to all the races. we missed one back east which dropped allison out of the top 10 for the ProXCT. as far as i know the top 10 are getting support...
It has been my experience that support goes to those that ask for it the loudest. No one ever comes up to you and says 'hey, you seem fast, let me give you something for less than you would otherwise be paying'. Don't take this the wrong way, but if your wife could have been top 10 nationally, she probably could be getting better shop, or even manufacturer support. Cold hard cash is hard to come by, but getting deals and free tires, etc, shouldn't be. Getting the same 'brodeal' that a regular customer gets just for shop loyalty when you are out there advertising for them is bunk. Most grassroots teams are able to get their members prodeal on bikes.

Like I said before, I applaud your commitment. It's awesome that you guys can do this as privateers. Right now, I'm struggling just to get it together to race locally next year.

i must note here that i didn't start this thread to talk about me or my wife. i wanted to initiate some discussion and maybe generate ideas to promote women's racing!!!!!! BACK ON TOPIC!

Mike has good ideas for long term stuff... is there nothing that can be done to salvage women's racing in 2010?!?!

More women racing means a healthy happy community of racers. Come on guys, help me out here!
To keep this on track, a solid race scene requires commitment on all levels, and starts from the bottom up. The more ways we can get youth riding, the more likely we are to have racing adults. This doesn't have to come in the form of high school coaching either. Growing up, we had high school teams that were coached by whichever teacher we could con into it. It was local clubs and shops putting on group rides and fostering a cycling community that kept kids in it. The school series was just a way of bringing kids that were already riding together. There were a handful of coaches that got funding from the gov't, but most did it because they cared. It was only a small percentage, but it was these kids that went on to be Kabush, Hesjedal, etc.

It seems to be a sad fact, but in today's society, no one really cares anymore. They get so wrapped up in their own lives, shop, or race season, that they fail to see the forest for the trees. Think how many kids you could get out riding if every shop in your town had a Sunday group ride and five kids that attended?

The other issue I see is protectionism. In this time of every kid being dropped off and picked up from soccer or football or whatever, how many parents are going to let their kids go out for a bike ride for 3h by themselves? Maybe Mike's plan of creating high school programs is the best way in the current climate to get kids riding and racing, since I highly doubt we're going to see legions of pre-teen girls out in the woods or on the backroads these days.
 
#29 ·
transient said:
The other issue I see is protectionism. In this time of every kid being dropped off and picked up from soccer or football or whatever, how many parents are going to let their kids go out for a bike ride for 3h by themselves? Maybe Mike's plan of creating high school programs is the best way in the current climate to get kids riding and racing, since I highly doubt we're going to see legions of pre-teen girls out in the woods or on the backroads these days.
Story to go with statement.

I was riding in Revelstoke this spring on a trail called Tantrum (best XC trail I have ever ridden BTW). Me and a buddy are in the middle of it when we run into a group of fours girls who are maybe 15. No dads, no boyfriends, just the four of them out for a ride and a big ride at that. It was pretty cool to see.

Catharine phoned me a couple of minutes later to say she had won her first US cup in a spring finish, I went "never mind that, you would not believe what I just saw on the trail."
 
#30 ·
whybotherme said:
basically the average racer gets MSRP minus 10-15%. that is what we WERE getting.

no you cannot build a race worthy HT for $2k if you are an average racer (assuming the above)
I paid cost when I was a roadie back home. Now, as a first year MTBer 2,000mi from home, I'm getting 30% off. Next year, back to cost, if not Pro Deal.

Pricepoint.com:

Sette Phantom Carbon Frameset: $600
RockShox Reba Team Dual Air: $420
SRAM X.9 Disc Group: $500

Super cheap bars, stem, saddle: $100

Stan's Olympic Wheelset: $450

Tires: $100

Pedals: $120

Total: ~$2300

That would be a 21lb bike. If you can't race on a 21lb bike, you're in the wrong sport.

Similar to this bike, but without the boat anchor wheels:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=547888
 
#32 ·
Le Duke said:
Total: ~$2300
if we are being nitpicky... you just went $300 over budget and can't eat for three weeks. (only one week+a couple days if you eat like some Elites that have 100% organic stuff from Whole Paycheck)

back on topic...

is adopting an athlete something that is done in the US?? (by adopting i mean providing severely discounted housing and training plans etc) it seems LMN is doing something similar as he is always talking about all the riders/bikes in his house. it seems this could be a way to help a young struggling athlete that has promise.

is there someone that organizes this type of thing? (USA Cycling?)
 
#34 ·
Many adolescent girls probably feel "out of place" early on. I mean it's tough, dirty and physical. These are the most obvious aspects of our sport and they are "testosteroney".

They like to girly things when they are in their adolescent and teenage years. Hanging out in exclusive little cliques is huge for young girls.

OK I got nuthin' but this may be a big part of the equation. Throw me a bone here. Tell me I'm wrong.
 
#35 ·
Pauly F said:
Many adolescent girls probably feel "out of place" early on. I mean it's tough, dirty and physical. These are the most obvious aspects of our sport and they are "testosteroney".

They like to girly things when they are in their adolescent and teenage years. Hanging out in exclusive little cliques is huge for young girls.

OK I got nuthin' but this may be a big part of the equation. Throw me a bone here. Tell me I'm wrong.
you may very well be right. i do think that it is a learned thing to be that way.
 
#36 ·
whybotherme said:
one (1) pro female racing at Cal State Champs in Big Bear today.

on the bright side i did ride past a young girl on course with dad as chase/support. i cheered for her as i went by despite my leg cramps and oxygen debt. :)
It is the end of september.

Not many people are into racing at this time of year. Those who are racing are on cross bikes.
 
#37 ·
whybotherme said:
one (1) pro female racing at Cal State Champs in Big Bear today.
Everybody is already in cyclocross mode. Womens fields in cross this year have been the biggest ever(30% of the racers) to go along with the biggest overall fields ever in SoCal. Cross rules really, I pay $25.00 to race (actually my team pays for my racing) and there are cash payouts in elite 35+. Actually made a little bit of coin last year.
 
#38 ·
An idea....approach women's clubs. I know the Trail Angels in Orange County have a huge membership of women mountain bikers and many of them are very good riders. Find a way to get them to a race. Some will take to it, some won't. But for many it's just getting that first race under their belt and getting started.

Maybe help the Trail Angels (or some other group) form a low-key women's only race. That could expose a lot of women to racing in a comfortable environment. Hopefully that would get some to get into racing. I'm sure there'd be a lot of very good cat 2 women from a group like that and potentially cat 1 and pros.

On a slightly different, but similar subject, I think the cat 3 women's course at Big Bear was way too much for a beginning woman. I think it was long for cat 3 men too, but I have to think a 20 mile course with 2300' of climbing would discourage a beginning woman from racing.
 
#39 ·
pinnacle10 said:
An idea....approach women's clubs. I know the Trail Angels in Orange County have a huge membership of women mountain bikers and many of them are very good riders. Find a way to get them to a race. Some will take to it, some won't. But for many it's just getting that first race under their belt and getting started.

Maybe help the Trail Angels (or some other group) form a low-key women's only race. That could expose a lot of women to racing in a comfortable environment. Hopefully that would get some to get into racing. I'm sure there'd be a lot of very good cat 2 women from a group like that and potentially cat 1 and pros.

On a slightly different, but similar subject, I think the cat 3 women's course at Big Bear was way too much for a beginning woman. I think it was long for cat 3 men too, but I have to think a 20 mile course with 2300' of climbing would discourage a beginning woman from racing.
allison will be speaking to the Rock N Road Dirt Divas at a meeting soon. i have no idea how many of them will pick up racing after hearing her, but maybe it will challenge some of them which would be awesome.

we were talking today about the younger kids on course. it seems that having them go down fall line or even the last section (bristle cone?) is pretty challenging. in all honesty though it is meeting challenges that creates growth in a person (in life, not just MTB) and i am a big fan of sink or swim. (took allison on more challenging trails pretty much right away and although she cried a few times, she kept at it!)

honestly, i think that more southern california women (and beginner racers) cut their teeth on racing the hardest way... in the Warrior's Society Counting Coup. different mentality, but that is certainly what started Allison down the road of racing and training.
 
#40 ·
A lot of good ideas... In the short term, I would try to pull from the triathlon arena. Many triathletes already have mountain bikes and use during the fall and winter months for off season training. You can only stair at asphalt for so long on a tri bike. Many triathletes take a year off (or don't race as much) to take a break from the three sport training. There are many triathletes I know who do the Xterra Triathlon Series. Triathlons are very expensive as compared to MTB racing so that's a plus for MTB. As far as women, I know plenty who are strong, tough and disciplined. Race promoters could contact triathlon teams and offer discounts for their races. Our tri team usually gets $10 plus off from Tri promoters in the area. They probably won't pull a large % at first but 10 plus women sounds like that would make a difference. I would check out LA Triathlon Team for starters - they have over 300 members last time I checked. A Google search or Competitor Magazine will have the rest. I'm sure you have over a 1000 tri members in S. CA alone. As far as my tri team, I can't think of one person who doesn't race.
 
#42 ·
Womens Training

Our club has run, for several years, an annual Women's Training Camp and it is virtually booked out the instant we open it. Lots of other groups in Australia have copied the idea. Here is a bit more info on it.

Talking to the women who have done it (married to one of them), the main benefits they see are:

. not being made to feel out of it when riding with men. This seemed to be the biggie, as many Women start out riding with mixed groups, but they seem to get worried that they are holding up the group. So, a Women-specific activity removes that.

. skills and maintenance sessions

. dietry advice\\. fitness / strength conditioning advice

Most of the Women who do this camp go on to racing in both endurance events (12/24 Hr & Marathons) and traditional XCO format club races.
 
#43 ·
i am starting to see some really good stuff now! thanks to everyone for contributing.


for smaller races i am sure that women can race with the men (cat1 women in cat2 men, cat2 women in cat3 men) but i am not aware of the pro/elite rules regarding this.
 
#45 ·
Interesting reading Byberg's comments

"I like road racing, but I love mountain bike racing." She also added, "It seems like mountain biking is more fair for women than road racing. On the road, there are generally not the same teams and the same races for men and women. For us mountain bike female pros, we always race on the same day as the men and on the same courses. It feels more fair - like there is more respect for women in mountain biking."

I've had the impression there is also more respect between the top women racing in World Cup for each other (combined with some universal frustration for the riders further down the ranks that don't do well on technical courses and tend to be mobile roadblocks for the top riders). :rolleyes:
 
#46 ·
rockyuphill said:
I've had the impression there is also more respect between the top women racing in World Cup for each other (combined with some universal frustration for the riders further down the ranks that don't do well on technical courses and tend to be mobile roadblocks for the top riders). :rolleyes:
i don't know much about the interaction of the top women. i do know that CPen has been super nice every time we have seen her. she is an awesome ambasador! my brief experience speaking with emily left me with a similar impression.

i have seen some things that i didn't like about some women racers. snubbing each other in warmup and such. seemed like poor sportsmanship.

whenever you have the kind of separation in the field that you have between WC pros and national level athletes you will always have some frustration. it really can't be that big of a problem though, as most races pull the riders before they get lapped right?

allison was frustrated by a racer that was blocking her at a race this year on the descents, i simply told her to start harder and make sure she doesn't wind up behind that person in the first place!!!! allison's starts were really weak in the second half of the year, but that isn't a problem that has to do with the competition! :)
 
#47 ·
whybotherme said:
Guess maybe my original question and hypothesis isn't too far off the mark...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/lene-byberg-rising-to-the-top

To not have a job after her results this last year is astounding.
I know its not XC - but a very similar situation for Women down here too.

Caroline Buchanan won the World 4X Champs in 2009 on a "bike with no name" (well - her name) because she has no bike sponsor, and the 2006 Womens U19 DH World Champ and 3rd in the 2007 World Champs in Elite, Tracey Hannah (Mick Hannah's sister), is now out of racing after going broke trying to compete on the world cup circuit with no sponsor.
 
#48 ·
I've wondered the same thing....

I ride CAT3 women's, and what I generally notice is a split in the group. One half is the 'beginner MTB ladies' who know the basics of MTBing and racing, the other half are the total n00bs on department store bikes. The last mentioned will hate life in a race, their equipment will most likely fail, and they're not ready for the minimally present obstacles in an XC race, and the climbs will kill them. I'm actually over-generalizing quite a bit, but it's my general impression.

This is caused mostly (I think) by that women in this country don't seem to ride bikes as much when growing up as the guys do. I happened to grow up in Holland, with plenty of bikes, and did some BMXing, and starting MTBing, but I do not see ANY girls riding BMXs or MTB here. Maybe the girls are too overprotected here? Maybe it's this whole girly girl VH1/MTV generation?

It probably also has a lot to do with how it's marketed, when you see any MTBing on TV, you mostly see extreme hucksters (Red Bull Rampage), and BMX freestyle, both showing a very masculine world. I can see how many girls do not feel like being part of something like that (especially with the 'jack@$$' style TV shows featuring an overload of testosterone overdose that is absolutely over the top).

Get my point anyone?
 
#49 ·
@VanHalen

at least there are women out there trying! encourage them, coach them, help them along!

nothing wrong with moving up as far as you can in the ranks either. that way you should not get "stuck" racing with them. your examples tell me that you think women could use role models. be that role model! you won't be on TV, but i don't think the boob tube is everything... :thumbsup:

it isnt any fun to go to the race and have one or two (or even zero) people to race against.


@ le Matelot

it seems at the elite level there are some interesting things at work. unfortunately for many talented women, their efforts reap zero rewards. i can tell you that if i were in a position to do so, i would dump money into a women's team. i love seeing these women compete (DH or XC)
 
#50 ·
to the OP,

There's some of us trying to come up! I'll be racing my first mtn season as a Cat 2( I raced road last year as a 3). I'm hoping to have a good state series and will be doing a few races in Cali (I'm in AZ), Sea Otter being the major one and whatever they have in So Cal that I can get to without too much time off work. I looked at the results for Sea Otter and there were big fields, that's awesome!

FWIW I did an endurance event here in AZ earlier this month and there were only 8 girls who finished and over 300+men. We just don't have the numbers out there!

Tiff
 
#51 ·
whybotherme said:
@VanHalen

at least there are women out there trying! encourage them, coach them, help them along!

nothing wrong with moving up as far as you can in the ranks either. that way you should not get "stuck" racing with them. your examples tell me that you think women could use role models. be that role model! you won't be on TV, but i don't think the boob tube is everything... :thumbsup:

it isnt any fun to go to the race and have one or two (or even zero) people to race against.

@ le Matelot

it seems at the elite level there are some interesting things at work. unfortunately for many talented women, their efforts reap zero rewards. i can tell you that if i were in a position to do so, i would dump money into a women's team. i love seeing these women compete (DH or XC)
Yes they're out there trying, and I didn't get as fast of a start as I had hoped for, so I actually ended up behind them...:rolleyes: I was cheering them on for a little bit, and gave them some pointers on the course (as it seemed they had never been on it before), and then passed them. I am not trying to scare anybody away from the scene, but in the end it is still a RACE....

The reason I brought up the whole TV ordeal, is because the life of teenagers (the future women's racers) seems to revolve around the darn thing. Just think of those Top Model shows and all that, they don't advocate competitive athletics very much, you'd become 'bulky' and 'man-like'. Everything that I seem to catch something (I don't have TV), the general idea for the girls seems to be: hair, make-up, and heels.

Also there are hardly any cycling teams in schools, and that's the #2 influence after TV. Girls play softball, and a bunch of other sports, but there's no cycling teams :bluefrown:

Even in college, hardly any colleges have cycling teams.... :rolleyes:

I am financing racing on my own, and it is getting pretty expensive at $40-$100 or more per race. It's cheaper for me to go dirtbiking really :rolleyes:
 
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