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  1. #1
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    HIIT- high intensity interval training

    I read through the interval training sticky, and not much on this topic specifically........

    by definition high intensity means just that so this is how it has to breakdown:

    duration - max would be 4 minutes.........so why 4 minutes ??

    if you can do the intensity longer than 4 minutes, then it isn't high intensity.....type IIA fibers are the main fiber for high end performance and they fatigue at 3-4 minutes.......

    intensity - critical power or higher

    rest- 2:1 or 1:2 or 1:1

    so the question is how fast can you get doing primarily these types of intervals.....if you trained only doing these what would your limiters ultimately be, bear in mind this is only for a cat 2 or 3 racer ??

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    Muscle fiber types and different energy systems used.

    Not cycling related but I did a 10K mud run last year after only doing 5-7 round intervals of rotating between 1/2 mile on the elliptical and a body weight exercise (push-up, pull-up, etc) for the 6 months preceding the event and was able to keep pace with people who had actually training for a 1/2 marathon a couple of weeks prior doing nothing but longer runs.
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  3. #3
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    This might sound obvious, but I'll say it anyway: It's likely that your ability to produce power for those shorter times (less than 4 minutes) would improve. (I'm guessing you're looking for a more specific answer, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.)
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  4. #4
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    Throw this wrench into the gears:
    Mtb racing , depending on the course, is usually a bunch of very short bursts.
    And I understand the need for rest/recovery periods between training intervals.
    But: When did you ever have set recovery periods in a race?( as in 1 minute hard, 1 minute recovery)

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    obviously one way to get into race shape is to well race more.........which was the only training model 15-20 years ago, ride long in the winter and race into shape in the spring........but today, we are smarter than that........because training is more specific.......


    I am just interested in others thoughts or experiences, with a training regimen of virtually exlcusive hiit training, and little to no long stuff......some data says this is all you need to do, but just wondering if anyone has actually tried and validated it.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor
    Throw this wrench into the gears:
    Mtb racing , depending on the course, is usually a bunch of very short bursts.
    And I understand the need for rest/recovery periods between training intervals.
    But: When did you ever have set recovery periods in a race?( as in 1 minute hard, 1 minute recovery)
    you have to think aobut what changes in the body lead to the ability to ride faster, and what is the best and most time efficient way to bring about those changes ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor
    Throw this wrench into the gears:
    Mtb racing , depending on the course, is usually a bunch of very short bursts.
    And I understand the need for rest/recovery periods between training intervals.
    But: When did you ever have set recovery periods in a race?( as in 1 minute hard, 1 minute recovery)
    As I understand it, the whole point of interval training is that by inserting rest periods, you are able spend more cumulative time working at that intensity level, and with less physical/mental damage to yourself, than if you simply went out and worked at that intensity level for as long as possible. So, more adaptation with less need for recovery.

    The "art" of interval training is that different intensity levels spur different physiological adaptations at different rates, and these adaptations, furthermore, are attained at different rates relative to each other. So, periodization, "cycles" of training, "recovery" rides [if the goal were only recovery, rest would be best, but the secondary goal is to maintain aerobic fitness], etc etc.
    http://www.freewebs.com/velodynamics...ninglevels.pdf

    I guess this is a longer-winded way of saying what suvowner just said.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by flargle
    I guess this is a longer-winded way of saying what suvowner just said.
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    carmichael uses a term called string theory.........in that if you train at critical power or vo2 max power, you using all your energy systems at that intensity, and therfore maximally stimulating all of those systems.............

    Dr. Michael Ross thinks that at critical power intensity is when you are recruiting a maximum number of fibers, and only those fibers recruited will get a training stimulus......he lists a lot of 4 minute intervals at critical power with 2 min rest.......whereas carmichael likes the power interval as he calls it, 3min on wit h3 min rest at a bit above critical power......I have done hard 2-2.5 hr hilly rides and by power distribution spent the same amount of time at critical power as i have in a 4 min on 2 min off X 5 interval workout that takes 30 minutes to complete...........

  10. #10
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    well, last year this was my training...intervals with hard rides once to three times per week (if and when i could) since i had no time to do structured training. i cramped, had my first dnf, dfl, just a bad year.

    if i'm correct, a person could train like this but will not be able to sustain it throughout the season, which is what happened to me.

    so, to your question, your limiter would be no base will not give you the endurance you need for the whole season of racing.

    am i even close to what you're asking?
    I just like riding my mountain bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcaronongan
    well, last year this was my training...intervals with hard rides once to three times per week (if and when i could) since i had no time to do structured training. i cramped, had my first dnf, dfl, just a bad year.

    if i'm correct, a person could train like this but will not be able to sustain it throughout the season, which is what happened to me.

    so, to your question, your limiter would be no base will not give you the endurance you need for the whole season of racing.

    am i even close to what you're asking?
    yep thats what i am looking for.....

    interesting, how old are you, years racing, what kind of event did you dnf ??

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    oops. deleted.

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    I guess the question kinda is, what is the most important power profile for MTB racing? Is 1-3 minute power the most important (anaerobic capability), or is it 5 minute, or more sustained like having a high FTP? These things are all trained by doing different length intervals (obviously). I guess I'd say that it depends on the specific race course.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvowner
    yep thats what i am looking for.....

    interesting, how old are you, years racing, what kind of event did you dnf ??
    i'm 41.

    started racing back in 1991. stop racing from 1996 to 2005. in 2006 got back into it. moved to sport (cat2) in 2008.

    i dnf'd in a sport race in 2009. flatted, cramped, ran out of water it was in august. basically everything that could go wrong in a race happened to me that day.
    I just like riding my mountain bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcaronongan
    i'm 41.

    started racing back in 1991. stop racing from 1996 to 2005. in 2006 got back into it. moved to sport (cat2) in 2008.

    i dnf'd in a sport race in 2009. flatted, cramped, ran out of water it was in august. basically everything that could go wrong in a race happened to me that day.
    so do you think the interval training did you good or bad ??? most cat 2 races are under 2 hours......so you shouldn't need long rides to perepare for that type of event.........

    i think it is more important to think of intervals in terms of energy systems that are being stressed, and not the length of the course and hills and such.......if you have more mitochondria and more stroke volume and more vascularity in your quads you will be faster.....what type of rides intervals/long/tempo yield the greatest stimulus to these systems..........

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvowner
    so do you think the interval training did you good or bad ??? most cat 2 races are under 2 hours......so you shouldn't need long rides to perepare for that type of event.........

    i think it is more important to think of intervals in terms of energy systems that are being stressed, and not the length of the course and hills and such.......if you have more mitochondria and more stroke volume and more vascularity in your quads you will be faster.....what type of rides intervals/long/tempo yield the greatest stimulus to these systems..........
    i did mostly hill repeats on the road. these ranged from 30 second intervals to 6 minute intervals depending on the road ride. i had a 2 hour road ride i did and also a 1 hour road ride.

    it certainly didn't hurt me. what happened to me was simulating the stresses of a race is impossible to do in training. but that's what i tried to do. last year, i would feel cramps coming on at the start of the second lap of every race. i did only four races last year. this year, i did my first race (only one so far) and did not have any cramps or feeling of cramps coming on.

    for me, my body needs the 12 week base workouts. it's what i've done in the past and works for ME.

    this year 99% of my base has been on the trainer. kids, work, life and weather!
    I just like riding my mountain bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XCFred
    I guess the question kinda is, what is the most important power profile for MTB racing? Is 1-3 minute power the most important (anaerobic capability), or is it 5 minute, or more sustained like having a high FTP? These things are all trained by doing different length intervals (obviously). I guess I'd say that it depends on the specific race course.
    Despite the appearance of a punchy power profile requirement in MTB racing, you need to have your FTP on terms with everything else. FTP has a very direct relationship with a) how quickly you recover, b) how hard you can go on those 3-5min climbs and c) how many times you can repeat those efforts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suvowner
    obviously one way to get into race shape is to well race more.........which was the only training model 15-20 years ago, ride long in the winter and race into shape in the spring........but today, we are smarter than that........because training is more specific.......


    I am just interested in others thoughts or experiences, with a training regimen of virtually exlcusive hiit training, and little to no long stuff......some data says this is all you need to do, but just wondering if anyone has actually tried and validated it.........
    Just an FYI, the vast majority of MTB and road pros still race themselves into shape...

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    good thoughts.........the only way to get better at riding on the limit, is to spend time riding on the limit.......but this requires alot of recovery......

    yes ftp is key, but does hiit improve ftp in a more time efficient way than longer rides ??

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke
    Just an FYI, the vast majority of MTB and road pros still race themselves into shape...
    Certainly there's more than one way to arrive successfully at the same end point in conditioning. However, IMHO the progression of knowledge is that for most people, arranging an annual plan and training like a pro isn't necessarily the best solution for those who have real-world committments other than riding, and the reverse which is that pros can race themselves into shape for peaking at the times they need it, as you state above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Certainly there's more than one way to arrive successfully at the same end point in conditioning. However, IMHO the progression of knowledge is that for most people, arranging an annual plan and training like a pro isn't necessarily the best solution for those who have real-world committments other than riding, and the reverse which is that pros can race themselves into shape for peaking at the times they need it, as you state above.
    agreed and great point.........which reinforces the need to discover/workout/figure out the most time efficient way to creat decent fitness..........hiit is probably it, but a training regimen that is virtually all 100% hiit training is still relatively new.....I am just looking for others who might have commited to such a training regimen and what there results have been ??

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvowner
    so do you think the interval training did you good or bad ??? most cat 2 races are under 2 hours......so you shouldn't need long rides to perepare for that type of event.........

    i think it is more important to think of intervals in terms of energy systems that are being stressed, and not the length of the course and hills and such.......if you have more mitochondria and more stroke volume and more vascularity in your quads you will be faster.....what type of rides intervals/long/tempo yield the greatest stimulus to these systems..........

    oh and one more thing on this...my rides on the trainer have been 1 to 2 hours for endurance 5 to 6 days per week. i train for quality on the trainer.

    so i have not done any 4 to 6 hour rides on the road to get to the fitness i'm at now.
    I just like riding my mountain bike.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvowner
    if you have more mitochondria and more stroke volume and more vascularity in your quads you will be faster.....what type of rides intervals/long/tempo yield the greatest stimulus to these systems..........
    Here's a link to what I feel is the best description I have seen regarding which intensities will bring about which types of adaptations for the same amount of time at that intensity (See Table 2 - toward the mid-bottom). It speaks specifically about all three things you mentioned (mitochondria--best at zone 4, stroke volume--best at zone 5, and muscle capillarization--best at zone 5):
    http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articl...ew-coggan.aspx

    My take on the original question (and I believe the original question was (in my own words): If you train primarily the anaerobic (lactic acid) energy system, what will happen?):
    Most people cannot train primarily one energy system and realistically expect high results in their XC race category. You've got to train them all--you might train one energy system more than another (to address a personal weakness), but I don't think you can ignore any energy system. And, I would say that you definitely cannot ignore your basic aerobic energy system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by millennium
    Here's a link to what I feel is the best description I have seen regarding which intensities will bring about which types of adaptations for the same amount of time at that intensity (See Table 2 - toward the mid-bottom). It speaks specifically about all three things you mentioned (mitochondria--best at zone 4, stroke volume--best at zone 5, and muscle capillarization--best at zone 5):
    http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articl...ew-coggan.aspx
    Looking at that table, it's tempting to think that all one's training should be high-intensity. I think it's important to remember that you are not just training muscle cells, you are also training a human being. Trying to compensate for low volume with high intensity will only get you so far.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by XCFred
    I guess the question kinda is, what is the most important power profile for MTB racing? Is 1-3 minute power the most important (anaerobic capability), or is it 5 minute, or more sustained like having a high FTP? These things are all trained by doing different length intervals (obviously). I guess I'd say that it depends on the specific race course.
    Course definitely has an influence. That said, here's a link to some power profiles for a few XC races:
    What % of Typical Race Are You Over LT?

    Notice that (for the 1 hour XC race): 29% of power was in the anaerobic range, where as 47% was in the aerobic power categories (not counting zone1 at all b/c it was probably mostly coasting/not pedaling). Also notice that as the race gets longer, then anaerobic % gets smaller. From this, you might say that anaerobic is definitely very important for XC racing, but at the same time, you should remember that a greater % of the power is produced aerobically during an XC race.
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