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  1. #1
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    hey glenzx! 21 miles in 1 hr 4 min...

    what'd you do last night?

    for those who are wondering why in the world i would post such a thing, glen and i have encountered some "issues", shall we say, in our top end intensity at our early season xc races. granted, glen lacking intensity is fighting for 4th while i'm happy to finish in the top 10. however, we both agree that we need to get out and do some red-line, roll-your-eyes-back-into-your-head intensity training to bring ourselves up to where we want to be in future races. my answer to this is to go out and do a hammerhead group road ride once/week in addition to my other training.

    the ride i picked is one i have never done before and has a reputation for being blazing balls-to-the-wall fast straight out of the parking lot. i did the first 20 min of it 2 weeks ago and hung on by my fingernails to the lead group but surely would have been shed off quickly had we not turned off early.

    this week i committed to doing the whole ride only to be somewhat thwarted by snarled traffic that made my commute home 70 minutes rather than the usual 45-50 min. grrr. pressed for time, and with horrendous weather looming we chose to drive to the ride. unfortunately this did not give me the necessary 25 minute warm up so i sprinted out of the parking lot on cold legs. this is a hilly ride and the group sprints (and i do mean SPRINTS) up every hill. oof!

    15 min into the ride my HR was red lined and i was gapped off the back of the lead group. a group of about 8 of us formed a chase group and chased....and chased....and chased. i drafted, i pulled, my HR never dropped below 180, and i was happy to hear that other people's breathing was more labored than mine.

    we finished out the ride about 2 minutes behind the lead group, and about 10 minutes ahead of the rain.

    another few weeks of this ride and i'll either pop an important blood vessel in my brain and end up comatose or i will be able to hang by a wing and a prayer to the lead group.

    oh, and i recorded my fastest time ever on my bike commute into work this am.

    rt
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  2. #2
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    rt,

    Am curious what your avg speed is on say a 40 mile hammerhead road ride? And with that number, how is the terrain? Flat? Moderately hilly?

    TIA

    Brian
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianthebiker
    rt,

    Am curious what your avg speed is on say a 40 mile hammerhead road ride? And with that number, how is the terrain? Flat? Moderately hilly?

    TIA

    Brian
    it really depends on the terrain, the time of year, and whether or not i'm drafting or pulling. i've averaged 19-ish on a 50 mile relatively flat loop in late winter on a group ride, and 18-ish by myself on the same loop in the summer, but i've also averaged 16 (and felt great about it) on a 35 mile loop in the mountains in the middle of the summer.

    to be honest i haven't done very many 40 mile hammerhead rides.

    but, as a general rule any time i average 19+ on a ride (other than in the mountains) i feel like i've gone hard & fast. and, i don't think i've ever averaged more than 21 on any ride.

    btw, we have almost no loops in my area that would be considered completely flat. everything around here has hills of some sort.

    don't know if this was helpful or answered your question in any way.

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by *rt*
    it really depends on the terrain, the time of year, and whether or not i'm drafting or pulling. i've averaged 19-ish on a 50 mile relatively flat loop in late winter on a group ride, and 18-ish by myself on the same loop in the summer, but i've also averaged 16 (and felt great about it) on a 35 mile loop in the mountains in the middle of the summer.

    to be honest i haven't done very many 40 mile hammerhead rides.

    but, as a general rule any time i average 19+ on a ride (other than in the mountains) i feel like i've gone hard & fast. and, i don't think i've ever averaged more than 21 on any ride.

    btw, we have almost no loops in my area that would be considered completely flat. everything around here has hills of some sort.

    don't know if this was helpful or answered your question in any way.

    rt


    That was helpful, as I was curious what you average, as I know you are a very good rider. The most I ever averaged on a 40 mile ride was about 18mph, with some hills, though admittedly not killer.

    Your post only solidifies my already held opinion you would kick my arse in a New York minute;-)
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  5. #5
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    Nice, if you pop a blood vessel in your head, just make sure you open up a hole so the blood pressure doesnt build up in your brain

    Sounded like you havent ever incorporated hard road rides into your training before?

    Also, are there any places where yall do solo (road bike) time trials in your area....something with distance...not like a little 4-6 miler...but like 12+ maybe.....talkin bout an intensity workout.....put those in once a week

    Note: I have no doubt though the folks you are training with on the road are hammerheads in the purest since of the word, living in the area you guys live in........im lucky if i can muster up a couple cat 3s here ...sounds like if you just hang with those guys, you should be flying down the trail without issue soon

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  6. #6
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    This thread reminds me of the local group ride on Wednesday around here. It is about 40 miles or so (I think) and the average speed is possibly 24 to 26 mph. I've never finished one of these rides. FWIW, I did a mountainous solo road ride on Monday of 102 miles with an average speed of just over 15 mph. If not for the long, fast downhills, the av speed would have been wayyyyyyy lower. The group ride consists of mosly cat3 road guys.
    Last edited by hardtail05; 04-21-2006 at 11:57 AM.

  7. #7
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    That's pretty impressive RT. Congratulations on coming closer to hold the group, I'm sure you will be right up there with them in no time.

    My highest average for a 47 mile ride has been right around 23 - 24 mph in a road race. It was a pretty flat race though and I was able to draft quite a bit. Unfortunately the constant yo-yoing of the group and the quick accelerations took enough out of me to outweigh the drafting. The average would have been much higher if there weren't the quick slow downs allowing for the jockeying of positions.

    It's hard to believe I finished 22nd in that race, only 3 seconds behind the winner.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianthebiker
    That was helpful, as I was curious what you average, as I know you are a very good rider. The most I ever averaged on a 40 mile ride was about 18mph, with some hills, though admittedly not killer.

    Your post only solidifies my already held opinion you would kick my arse in a New York minute;-)
    thanks brian. if you are averaging 18 on a 40 mile ride i bet you'd give me a good run (ride?) for my money.

    rt
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05
    This thread reminds me of the local group ride on Wednesday around here. It is about 40 miles or so (I think) and the average speed is possibly 24 to 26 mph. I've never finished one of these rides. FWIW, I did a mountainous solo road ride on Monday of 102 miles with an average speed of just over 15 mph. If not for the long, fast downhills, the av speed would have been wayyyyyyy lower.
    nice job!! i'm heading up to the mtns tomorrow to watch the Tour de Georgia and i'll be climbing up to the highest point in GA on one of the steepest climbs we have. i'm hoping to average over 2mph since if i'm going less than that i'll probably fall over.

    i haven't yet tried our tuesday night crit. apparently that one is sick fast.

    rt
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by *rt*
    thanks brian. if you are averaging 18 on a 40 mile ride i bet you'd give me a good run (ride?) for my money.

    rt
    Admittedly that was a recreational ride with two other guys(none of us are racers), but nonetheless, I hold no illusions of ever besting your times......you are one great rider from all I have read of your posts.

    I still stand by my "not in a NY minute";-)

    Brian

    PS. I really enjoy your race summaries, even though I have never entered a race.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by The SS Boz
    Nice, if you pop a blood vessel in your head, just make sure you open up a hole so the blood pressure doesnt build up in your brain

    Sounded like you havent ever incorporated hard road rides into your training before?

    Also, are there any places where yall do solo (road bike) time trials in your area....something with distance...not like a little 4-6 miler...but like 12+ maybe.....talkin bout an intensity workout.....put those in once a week

    Note: I have no doubt though the folks you are training with on the road are hammerheads in the purest since of the word, living in the area you guys live in........im lucky if i can muster up a couple cat 3s here ...sounds like if you just hang with those guys, you should be flying down the trail without issue soon

    -Boz
    LOL. i'll be sure to ask someone to carry a small hand drill on the next hammerhead ride i do.

    i've been doing some of the faster group rides for a couple years but i've generally played it safe and stuck to the ones where i either know i can hang on or i know the loop in case i get dropped. i'm venturing out into some new rides this year that are going to challenge me a lot more.

    before i moved to where i am now i rode with a team that did 3 organized training rides/week. a saturday interval or hill ride, sunday recovery or distance/endurance ride, and a wednesday night sprint ride. the sprint ride was awesome training and i really miss having that sort of organized training ride available.

    i believe there is a good loop available for a longish tt effort....i just need to learn the loop and how to get there!

    we're lucky around here to have some really high quality riders around. i think the front group of 10 last night included a couple pros, a couple cat 1/2 guys, an expert mtb'er, and 1 or 2 other guys. they even managed to drop the cat 1 girl (who, btw, was the only other girl i saw out there. )

    rt
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by *rt*
    nice job!! i'm heading up to the mtns tomorrow to watch the Tour de Georgia and i'll be climbing up to the highest point in GA on one of the steepest climbs we have. i'm hoping to average over 2mph since if i'm going less than that i'll probably fall over.

    i haven't yet tried our tuesday night crit. apparently that one is sick fast.

    rt
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05
    Sweet ! lucky you
    Brasstown Bald ? Root for Tom D for me, we went to the same college albeit years apart so I gotta root for him !!
    yup, i'll be on Brasstown. last time i did the climb, 2 yrs ago, i had to stop 4 times....and i run a 12x27 cassette. unreal how steep that road really is.

    i will ring my cowbell for Tommy D for you!

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowCel
    That's pretty impressive RT. Congratulations on coming closer to hold the group, I'm sure you will be right up there with them in no time.

    My highest average for a 47 mile ride has been right around 23 - 24 mph in a road race. It was a pretty flat race though and I was able to draft quite a bit. Unfortunately the constant yo-yoing of the group and the quick accelerations took enough out of me to outweigh the drafting. The average would have been much higher if there weren't the quick slow downs allowing for the jockeying of positions.

    It's hard to believe I finished 22nd in that race, only 3 seconds behind the winner.
    thanks. i seriously thought i was going to throw up near the end. i'll be happy if i manage to hang on to the back of the lead group once this summer.

    amazing how 3 seconds can make such a huge difference in a road race compared to a mtb race.

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  15. #15
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    It's good to hear other people out on the group road rides suffering along...like I do. Our route last night was 30 miles of rolling hills and flats and we covered it in 75 minutes which is a 24 mph average. Two of us were about a minute or so behind the three leaders at the end of the ride. Suffer now so you can enjoy the racing.
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  16. #16
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    Hey! This thread was for me, wasn't it? I like that as of my last check there were 51 views on your Passion "glenzx to the white courtesy phone" thread! What the heck do people think we're doing anyhow...?

    Wow! That's a smokin' ride indeed - sounds like our tuesday morning throw-downs. Those sprint-to-every-major-terrain-feature, intersection, or just for the hell of it - you know, pull through and HAMMER the folks in the paceline.

    And then finish with a 20 minute lung-busting, blood-vessel popping climb once you're cooked an hour and a half into the ride. End of ride mileage = 32 - 34 miles. Time - 1.5 - 2 hrs!!!! Ow.

    I've been wussing out on them lately, as it's been in the mid-20's at the 6AM departure time, and I just ain't gonna do it. 30 is my minimum on the road - especially since it's usually windy too of late.

    This weekend is my formal legs wake-up call, with a local road race our team puts on every year. Next week let the suffering begin for real! Yeehaw...

    Very cool you can get a workout commuting too - though traffic likely keeps it interesting indeed.
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  17. #17
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    Top end? I did some top end!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by *rt*
    what'd you do last night?

    for those who are wondering why in the world i would post such a thing, glen and i have encountered some "issues", shall we say, in our top end intensity.....[snip]
    I downloaded a hell of a workout!

    After a week of "recovery" (um - still riding, and tons of trailwork, and house work, and crazy amounts of work-work...) I went out and did a fast, hard road race this past weekend for fun, and as a way to blow the system out and see just how that top-end needs to be tuned.

    Wow. Pure pain. I race a little above my ability as an ACA categorized "B" race fella, though I really ought to be in the C's. B's are typically solid CAT 3 Roadies, and know how to race smart. The A race is the equivalent of Pro/1/2.

    Our team had 5 guys in the B's, so we met prior to the race, brewed up a plan, stuck to it and had some excellent results (I'll post a mini-write-up tomorrow). I was one of the 'domestiques' for the two stronger, more experienced racers. We had three of us to cover as many / all the breaks, surges, and other accelerations - and let me tell you, if you need a workout that takes you from hard tempo LT to super-threshold work dozens of times in a couple of hours - road racing is a great way to go!!!

    We raced 61 miles in 2h 22m.

    That is right at a hair over 20 miles per hour for two-and-a-third hours!

    Needless to say, it hurt - like a mofo, but in that sick, pure, seeing pinwheels in your periphery vision kick-ass good way. Might have to do more of these road racing events - it's addictive, and translates into explosive power on the mountainbike...
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  18. #18
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    Glenzx , your math is off , 61 miles in 2 hrs 22 min is 26 mph so you are much faster than you think. I race sport class and wonder about the road speed training of expert class riders. If you are typical of expert class riders no wonder there race times are so fast to a sport rider. I enjoy reading your and rt's reports.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    Hey! This thread was for me, wasn't it? I like that as of my last check there were 51 views on your Passion "glenzx to the white courtesy phone" thread! What the heck do people think we're doing anyhow...?

    Wow! That's a smokin' ride indeed - sounds like our tuesday morning throw-downs. Those sprint-to-every-major-terrain-feature, intersection, or just for the hell of it - you know, pull through and HAMMER the folks in the paceline.

    And then finish with a 20 minute lung-busting, blood-vessel popping climb once you're cooked an hour and a half into the ride. End of ride mileage = 32 - 34 miles. Time - 1.5 - 2 hrs!!!! Ow.

    I've been wussing out on them lately, as it's been in the mid-20's at the 6AM departure time, and I just ain't gonna do it. 30 is my minimum on the road - especially since it's usually windy too of late.

    This weekend is my formal legs wake-up call, with a local road race our team puts on every year. Next week let the suffering begin for real! Yeehaw...

    Very cool you can get a workout commuting too - though traffic likely keeps it interesting indeed.
    ugh! to do that sort of ride at 6 am. i am impressed. nothing good happens for me at 6 am!!

    sorry to hear about the mid 20s in the am. it was a moist 72 when i left my house this morning. in fact, i don't think i'll see 20s again for about 8 months. on the other hand, you will be laughing at me when i'm swimming through 90* & 90% humidity in another 2 weeks. *sigh*

    how'd playing roadie for the weekend go?

    rt

    ps - that count is up to 91 views as of today. must think we're having some sort of illicit on-line hot sex bike romance or something.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    We raced 61 miles in 2h 22m.
    wow!! nice job glen.

    rt
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick lee
    Glenzx , your math is off , 61 miles in 2 hrs 22 min is 26 mph so you are much faster than you think. I race sport class and wonder about the road speed training of expert class riders. If you are typical of expert class riders no wonder there race times are so fast to a sport rider. I enjoy reading your and rt's reports.
    Geezus! That is nuts. It is amazing what a good-sized fit "pack" can do then. I would not have thought, based on post-race feel, that we had gone that hard - but the numbers don't lie. Not sure how I botched the math so bad either!

    As for being a typical expert racer - I'd say I'm average. Good days can yield near-podium and sometimes podium finishes, and others can be a total disaster. The key differences being two things in racing expert vs. sport; 1 - greater distance / need for endurance and 2 - the ridculous speed at which the expert races take off at, maintain, and finish with. The oppurtunity for blowing up / cracking is enormous, and nutrition, warm-up, and other factors become that much more critical.

    It'd be a rare, gifted person that could successfully race as an expert at a regional / national level that did not train on the road, at least some of the time! I can all but guarantee that. IMO, there is just no way to get the mileage and the consistent, intense, repeatable efforts solely on a mountainbike. Plus it's nice to mix it up sometimes too!

    Anyhow - glad you get something form the reports we post - hopefully a healthy aversion to racing expert!

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by *rt*
    on the other hand, you will be laughing at me when i'm swimming through 90* & 90% humidity in another 2 weeks. *sigh*
    Yikes! OK, chilly and dry and sunny isn't too bad then.... and now we're up to mid-30's by 6AM! Woohoo - practically shorts and short-sleeves time!

    Quote Originally Posted by *rt*
    how'd playing roadie for the weekend go?
    A-O-K; but you saw the little update here, and I'll post a brief write up asap. to highlight the finer points of how brutally demanding road racing can be!


    Quote Originally Posted by *rt*
    ps - that count is up to 91 views as of today. must think we're having some sort of illicit on-line hot sex bike romance or something.
    THAT could relate to why something good was happening at 6AM for someone...
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