Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27

Thread: Good Article

  1. #1
    SSOD
    Reputation: Crosstown Stew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    754

    Good Article

    It never gets easier, you just get better at dealing with the pain. I think a lot of people forget how mental of a sport this is.

    The Secrets of Elite Athletes - NYTimes.com

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Poncharelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,197
    Great article!!

    Here's a couple of articles I ran into yesterday, more or less related, but in the opposite sense.

    Is Usain Bolt trying hard enough?

    Cobo’s long, strange trip to Vuelta lead

    The admission of hating to work hard and his chicken nugget diet (from Usain) is pretty funny. Also, pretty crazy that Cobos was on his way to becoming an electrician before these great results came up in the Vuelta.
    Last edited by Poncharelli; 09-07-2011 at 10:36 AM.
    Head Coach, Ben Lomond HS MTB Team
    www.utahmtb.org
    Cycling Team and local Club:
    http://www.roostersbikersedge.com/

  3. #3
    SSOD
    Reputation: Crosstown Stew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    754
    With respect to your Bolt article, having come from a track and field background at a D1 college, I've seen really good work ethic in people, both physically and mentally and seen it pay off. I've also seen people with all the talent in the world wipe the floor with those same people who train day and night. That's why I think people who actually do more endurance/ marathon oriented events actually have to put in the work for the most part.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    480
    I know some riders who have really decent power numbers and have coaches and all that, but get blown out in races, week after week on the road. I'm always interested to speak with them and try to understand where it breaks down, if their tactics are poor or their top end limited or perhaps they have a fear of trying their hardest. My gut feeling is they are uncomfortable digging really, really deep for a time.

    They can sure kick my ass in a training ride though...

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    301
    i've wondered about that too. there are guys that i cannot even hold a wheel on in training rides, they have power taps and personal coaches, and have all the latest gear. i don't even have a working hrm, but when it comes to race time, i beat them. it doesn't make any sense.
    something about the west coast...it makes me wanna ride

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Poncharelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,197
    I believe it's because general power numbers fail to measure particular capabilities: lactate clearance and anaerobic work capacity.

    There's an article comparing Adam Craig to Ryan Trebon which stated this testing protocol: "To test lactate clearance we had each athlete ride at 120% of threshold power (~450 watts) for one
    minute, followed by 30 seconds at 125 watts, repeatedly, until exhaustion. The athlete who completes the greatest number of repetitions could have greater lactate clearance." "Anaerobic work capacity is the ability to perform in an anaerobic state; that is, at a power outputs above VO2 power. To test AWC we had each athlete ride to exhaustion at 120% of their threshold power. The athlete who rides the longest has greater anaerobic work capacity."

    "Ryan has a higher lactate threshold both in terms of absolute power as well as watts per kilogram of body weight. He produces a whopping 380 watts at threshold, nearly 70 watts more than Adam. If all race courses were a long sustained climb, one would be a fool to not bet on Ryan. So how is Adam able to compete with Ryan even though there is such a discrepancy in their power outputs? Three obvious factors narrow the gap: Bike handling, anaerobic work capacity, and lactate clearance. Adam is an exceptional bike handler, which means he gets around corners and to the bottom of hills faster. He also has a tremendous ability to ride continuously above his lactate threshold; He was able to ride at 120% of his threshold power 80% longer than Ryan (225 seconds vs 122). He also clears lactate better- he was able to repeat 8x1 minute intervals (30 second recovery) at 120% of threshold power while Ryan could only finish 7 intervals. While Ryan clearly exceeds in some regards, Adam clearly exceeds in others."

    So that may explain how some people with better general better power numbers don't perform as well as their numbers indicate.
    Head Coach, Ben Lomond HS MTB Team
    www.utahmtb.org
    Cycling Team and local Club:
    http://www.roostersbikersedge.com/

  7. #7
    lgh
    lgh is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    413
    Quote Originally Posted by Poncharelli View Post
    So that may explain how some people with better general better power numbers don't perform as well as their numbers indicate.
    That is correct. Recovery can trump power. Just keep attacking until you drop them. Just don't get sucked into the power game or you lose.

    I will post something on this when I get a chance.

    Larry

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    10
    Oh, thanks for the article... Hope I can improve my riding..

  9. #9
    is turning a big gear
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    504
    Quote Originally Posted by Poncharelli View Post
    Great article!!

    Here's a couple of articles I ran into yesterday, more or less related, but in the opposite sense.

    Is Usain Bolt trying hard enough?

    Cobo’s long, strange trip to Vuelta lead

    The admission of hating to work hard and his chicken nugget diet (from Usain) is pretty funny. Also, pretty crazy that Cobos was on his way to becoming an electrician before these great results came up in the Vuelta.
    People like Bolt (and Michael Vick) amaze me at how high they performed based on just their natural talent.
    Get it unlocked.

  10. #10
    likes to ride bikes
    Reputation: TunicaTrails's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    893
    You guys make it sound like Adam Craig is a better racer than Ryan Trebon. He's not though

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mudge's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,149
    Quote Originally Posted by jroden View Post
    I know some riders who have really decent power numbers and have coaches and all that, but get blown out in races, week after week on the road. I'm always interested to speak with them and try to understand where it breaks down, if their tactics are poor or their top end limited or perhaps they have a fear of trying their hardest. My gut feeling is they are uncomfortable digging really, really deep for a time.

    They can sure kick my ass in a training ride though...
    Perhaps you could interview Tom Danielson to get his first-hand view on the issue?

  12. #12
    SSOD
    Reputation: Crosstown Stew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    754
    Tommy D and those guys at that level are insane. Those guys have loads of miles in the saddle. I don't think the same stats that come from average riders/ racers apply to people who race at that level.

    Anyway I was just pointing out that article talks about how people who frequently do well in competition, be it 5,4,3,2,1, pro whatever, have the ability to dig deeper than others at their level. I think that ability comes from their mental fitness more than anything and I think a lot of times people want to blame their equipment, tire psi, terrain, weather, conditioning, etc rather than realizing they just didn't dig deep enough for fear they might blow up early, cramp, bonk, and risk losing spots because of it. I've raced enough to know all this plays into a race strategy and finishing is better than a DFL or DNF and no one wants that either I guess. At least for me there are times racing where my legs and brain are telling me to hold back for whatever reason and it takes mental strength to fight that urge. I guess we should all just listen to Jens Voigt.....

    Jens Voigt tells his body to shut up - YouTube

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mudge's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Crosstown Stew View Post
    Tommy D and those guys at that level are insane. Those guys have loads of miles in the saddle. I don't think the same stats that come from average riders/ racers apply to people who race at that level.

    Anyway I was just pointing out that article talks about how people who frequently do well in competition, be it 5,4,3,2,1, pro whatever, have the ability to dig deeper than others at their level. I think that ability comes from their mental fitness more than anything and I think a lot of times people want to blame their equipment, tire psi, terrain, weather, conditioning, etc rather than realizing they just didn't dig deep enough for fear they might blow up early, cramp, bonk, and risk losing spots because of it. I've raced enough to know all this plays into a race strategy and finishing is better than a DFL or DNF and no one wants that either I guess. At least for me there are times racing where my legs and brain are telling me to hold back for whatever reason and it takes mental strength to fight that urge. I guess we should all just listen to Jens Voigt.....

    Jens Voigt tells his body to shut up - YouTube
    You apparently missed the irony of my reference to Tommy D. It's been repeatedly noted that if numbers were all that mattered, he'd win almost everything. He's off the charts in many ways, but he seemingly can't race his way out of a paper bag and he conveniently gets a stomach virus whenever there's any pressure on him at all. He just can't seem to pull off a win if he's got even one decent competitor.

  14. #14
    SSOD
    Reputation: Crosstown Stew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    754
    Oh, I gotcha man. I don't follow/ read much about pro training numbers and stuff I guess, just watch them when they're on tv.

  15. #15
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,769

    Htfu

    Lots of good posts here imo.

    I tend to agree with poncharelli about the "lactate clearance and anaerobic work capacity" being a fairly good predictor.

    What is intriguing is when you take two riders with the same exact numbers, yet one beats the other consistently.

    IMO, you can generalize that the more successful rider simply knows how to and is willing to "dig deep". AKA....knows how to HTFU.

    This is another great insight from J. Friel about what he feels it takes for one to achieve "excellence". I agree with Friel that excellence simply is not for everyone... Still trying to figure out if I even have what it takes

    Link:

    Joe Friel's Blog: Excellence

  16. #16
    Just Ride
    Reputation: Cormac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,739
    I've found this to be the case with climbing. Which is my weakest part of riding. So long as my muscles and lungs are able to do it, i'll keep pushing em. I figured it's all about upping your pain tolerance. Nice to know I was right!
    SS ==> Nut up or Shut up!

  17. #17
    lgh
    lgh is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    413
    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    IMO, you can generalize that the more successful rider simply knows how to and is willing to "dig deep". AKA....knows how to HTFU.]
    I was reading this thread and reflecting on my decidedly limited experience, albeit with some really good riders, and thought the same. Really, where did Rule #5 come from anyway? Coal workers, farmers, and sweat factories produced the foundation of cycling, not pansy-ass privilege.

    Larry

  18. #18
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,769
    Quote Originally Posted by lgh View Post
    I was reading this thread and reflecting on my decidedly limited experience, albeit with some really good riders, and thought the same. Really, where did Rule #5 come from anyway? Coal workers, farmers, and sweat factories produced the foundation of cycling, not pansy-ass privilege.

    Larry
    I could be way off , but according to a bit of research, it originated with some Australian comedian, then Stuart O'Grady gave a bunch of wristbands with the phrase to his 2007 Tour de France Teammates.

    I feel like it has been around much longer in spirit/concept at the very least... "rub some dirt on it kid and get back in there!!"

  19. #19
    SSOD
    Reputation: Crosstown Stew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    754
    Yeah youtube Ronnie Johns- HTFU and watch the video if your looking where that came from.

    rydbk yeah I'm trying to figure out if I've got what it takes as well, because you always know there is someone else out there training who can dig deeper and harder than you.

    I did my first cx race of the year yesterday and entered in both the C's and B's with about 20 mins to clean off/ rest in between. One of my buddies quoted me right after the first race cussing and saying there was no way in hell I was doing the second race, I don't remember it but I avg 191 for 30 mins so I was kinda out of it there for a sec. Ended up doing the second race with the B's even thought it hurt something awful in my legs and lungs but was glad I did it. Through all that pain I was still turning the same lap times in the second race as I was in the first race even though I would have never thought it during the race. There was definitely some HTFU going in my head during the second race as I was trying to zone out the pain.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jrastories's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    477
    The ability to overcome pain and push your body is so big. I learned about Jens Voigt this spring and found a link to this soundboard some of those quotes are what got me though my 8 hour races, especially the "Shut up body and do what I tell you"

    The other quote that I love and is exactly what the first artical is about is from Steve Prefontaine (I don't know if it is his actual quote or just one that they adapted for both movies) "I can endure more pain then anyone I've met."

    Training time/power numbers/VO2 values are all a small part of what it is to be at the top of your class when it comes down to race day. I have a good friend that doesn't train that much maybe 3 hours a week, but he can win some big races just because as he puts it the adrenalin gets him going and he puts everything out on the course.
    Rocky Element
    My Attempt at a Blog

  21. #21
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,769
    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories View Post
    The ability to overcome pain and push your body is so big. I learned about Jens Voigt this spring and found a link to this soundboard some of those quotes are what got me though my 8 hour races, especially the "Shut up body and do what I tell you"

    The other quote that I love and is exactly what the first artical is about is from Steve Prefontaine (I don't know if it is his actual quote or just one that they adapted for both movies) "I can endure more pain then anyone I've met."

    Training time/power numbers/VO2 values are all a small part of what it is to be at the top of your class when it comes down to race day. I have a good friend that doesn't train that much maybe 3 hours a week, but he can win some big races just because as he puts it the adrenalin gets him going and he puts everything out on the course.
    Respectfully, I disagree. Those variables mentioned above are HUGE, as is one's ability to HTFU.

  22. #22
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,485
    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post

    to HTFU.

    I have never been a fan of this referent. I think it is a catchall, even used as a phallic denigration, lacking an understanding of an effort past a certain level. It shows no insight whatsoever.
    I don't rattle.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jrastories's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    477
    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Respectfully, I disagree. Those variables mentioned above are HUGE, as is one's ability to HTFU.
    ok I can understand where you are coming from, if you do not posses the physiological markers of an athlete you can't be competitive; however, I would predict that all the competitors in a particular category of racing from cat 5 to elite will have similar values when tested in a lab. So what would separate 1st from last has to be explained by many other factors. I am not saying that ones ability to block out pain is the biggest contributor but it is an important one.

    to further back this up I would also bring up doping there is many athletes who have used all types of doping techniques increased power, VO2, Lactate threshold ect but who never reached the top step of the podium. Yet others can do the same types of things and create records that last over 10 years, even if they are not official records. Science still can't create the best athlete in the world there needs to be a lot of other things contributing to a champion.
    Rocky Element
    My Attempt at a Blog

  24. #24
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,769
    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories View Post
    ok I can understand where you are coming from, if you do not posses the physiological markers of an athlete you can't be competitive; however, I would predict that all the competitors in a particular category of racing from cat 5 to elite will have similar values when tested in a lab. So what would separate 1st from last has to be explained by many other factors. I am not saying that ones ability to block out pain is the biggest contributor but it is an important one.

    to further back this up I would also bring up doping there is many athletes who have used all types of doping techniques increased power, VO2, Lactate threshold ect but who never reached the top step of the podium. Yet others can do the same types of things and create records that last over 10 years, even if they are not official records. Science still can't create the best athlete in the world there needs to be a lot of other things contributing to a champion.
    Yes, I think we agree

  25. #25
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,769
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I have never been a fan of this referent. I think it is a catchall, even used as a phallic denigration, lacking an understanding of an effort past a certain level. It shows no insight whatsoever.
    Please explain, regarding the use of HTFU and how using it shows no insight whatsoever.

    Thanks BM

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Good tire/wheel article
    By frdfandc in forum Wheels and Tires
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-03-2011, 12:25 PM
  2. Good Article on Cramping
    By dirthead in forum XC Racing and Training
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 10-16-2010, 08:51 PM
  3. Good Article About Specialized
    By mwcet8k in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-26-2008, 10:37 AM
  4. Good article...
    By jac02000 in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-13-2007, 03:42 PM
  5. Good article on Helmets
    By mbogosia in forum Apparel and Protection
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-06-2005, 08:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •