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  1. #1
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    Going fast longer?

    I have had a pretty good bike season. I have not raced much, 3 times with good results, and I have ridden a lot. I feel like I have as good of fitness as I have had in a long time. I have not been doing rides over 2hrs and I am getting ready to do a few long races in the next 6 weeks. I did do some 3-4 hr rides in April and May, but nothing over 2.5 hrs since then.
    What would you all suggest I do to get my long race game going?
    I have two weekends, back to back, doing 50 milers the first and second weeks of August, and then end my race season with the Park City P2P on 9/1/13.
    I have had a lull in my season through the end of June to mid July, meaning I drank a lot of beer and slacked on my weekly ride hours. I was averaging 12 hrs a week and that dropped to 8-9 hrs for three weeks or so. Only excuse I have for the lull is that its been hot and the only thing that sounds fun is beer and swimming in the river.
    Thanks for any help,
    Ryon
    ATV = fat A$$

  2. #2
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    I suggest a good training book or a coach. Getting faster from a point of already "pretty fit and fast" is not simple, and too complicated for a 'reply to thread'.
    I'm reading The Mountain Bikers Training Bible, start with that. I also enjoyed The Time Crunched Cyclist.
    I was off the bike pretty much when the Training Bible came out so I'm late to the book club (regularly riding now coming up on two years), all we had when I was racing in the very early 90s was Greg Lemonds book, the Training Bible seems very good so far.

  3. #3
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    Thanks Jim. I have the training bible, good book.
    I guess I am looking for something like a new twist. I want to keep up what I have, but build some endurance through a few key longer rides over the next month, or something. Just looking for a few ideas on how to tweak things and gain some endurance with out cooking myself. Also, how to make up for three weeks of swilling beers...in excess! It was a fun break but gotta get back in the game. Thanks again.
    ATV = fat A$$

  4. #4
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    It seems both you and I believe in aerobic overload. Nothing's better for performance than getting those 14 hour weeks.

    It would be nice to do 14, 16, 14, 8 straight into PCP2P. In terms of intervals, you could do some Tempo stuff or race pace simulation segments, maybe 3 times a week.

    But good consistent volume seems to be the best recipe for endurance racing, .....or just about any racing.
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  5. #5
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    3-4x20min intervals, or more racing.

  6. #6
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    I swear that all I do are 3-4x20's. I gave up on traditional intervals this year and have gone with 10-40 min all out climbs. I think its raised my tempo/threshold a lot and fits my local terrain well for training.

    Ponch,
    To get those hours I will need to ride/train through my 50 milers on the 3rd and 10th of August. Would you go with lesser hours after the race on the 10th, or keep on plugging away and just taper into the PCP2P? Also, would you do any short type of training like micro bursts or anything like that? My starts have been okay staying in the upper 1/4.
    Thanks,
    Ryon
    ATV = fat A$$

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by butryon View Post
    I swear that all I do are 3-4x20's. I gave up on traditional intervals this year and have gone with 10-40 min all out climbs. I think its raised my tempo/threshold a lot and fits my local terrain well for training.
    If you are training for 50 miler's I would think about course demands.

    Are there short steep climbs that would make you need micro- burst workouts? It sounds like with your description that you are dealing with long prolonged climbs (mountain?)

    I am curios: what do you find different from doing 3-4x20m intervals than 10-40 min all out climbs you describe? At threshold pace, I am pretty fatigued after doing 2x20 @ threshold pace.

  8. #8
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    I don't think I am really doing anything physiologically different by doing 10-40 min intervals. I struggle with formal structure(2x20 w/10 min. Recovery) so if I pick climbs that are roughly 20 or 10 min...etc, I just mentally do better and do not lose my drive to go racing. For some reason intervals take the fun out of riding for me and long hard climbs seem to be fun. I get to ride daily and if I can keep it fun I seem to do well racing. It's sort of a mental basket case love/hate relationship with racing.
    As far as me thinking about micro burst and shorter punchy stuff, those are my biggest weakness. I think that working on your weakness regardless of the length of the race is good in proportion to what ones goals are.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by butryon View Post
    As far as me thinking about micro burst and shorter punchy stuff, those are my biggest weakness. I think that working on your weakness regardless of the length of the race is good in proportion to what ones goals are.
    I can see your point, but that is kind of like saying a marathon runners weakness is his 100m dash time - just trying to help with specificity.

    "I believe the three most important principles of training are 1) specificity, 2) specificity, and 3) specificity." Joe Friel

    Everyone's time is limited....

    Just FYI: Riders on my team have made a noticeable difference in their start with lead group by doing VO2 max intervals (5min) vs shorter 1m intervals.

    Peace

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by butryon View Post
    Ponch,
    To get those hours I will need to ride/train through my 50 milers on the 3rd and 10th of August. Would you go with lesser hours after the race on the 10th, or keep on plugging away and just taper into the PCP2P? Also, would you do any short type of training like micro bursts or anything like that? My starts have been okay staying in the upper 1/4.
    Thanks,
    Ryon
    I would do it something like this:

    For your next two races (3rd and 10th), do them like "peak" weeks:
    Mon: Off
    Tues: 2 hours, with some hard efforts (short midweek race if possible)
    Wednesday: 1 hour aerobic
    thurs: 1 hour, with a few 3 minute hard efforts
    Friday: 1 hour with a few sprints
    Sat: Race (4-6 hours?)
    Sun: 1-2 hour, aerobic ride

    Week of August 12-18th: Big volume week, 16+ hours if possible. Mostly aerobic, throw in some long hard efforts every other day.

    Week of Aug 20th - 25th: ~12 hour week. You should throw in there some short hard efforts, 1-5 minutes, on tues thurs and sat. Some but not too many.

    Week of PCP2P: Perform like another peak week leading into race.
    Head Coach, Ben Lomond HS MTB Team
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  11. #11
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    I like Ponch's schedule. W/ the PCP2P training, I would really go virtical. It will develop power and strength to get your pedal over and through the top of the strock. Don't know where you live or your time allocation, but hopefully you have some good climbs w/in a couple hours. Good luck!

  12. #12
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    I personally like the following workout, but only after one day of EASY riding (< 1 hour at grandma pace) and one day totally off the bike:
    -3 hours solid of endurance pace (zone 2) or 2000 kJ of zone 2 if you have a power meter
    -2 x 20 min @ FTP w/ 5 rest between each
    -1 x 5 min @ VO2max - 5 min rest after
    -6 x 2 min @ VO2max - 3 min rest between each
    -6 x 1 min full sprints - 3 min rest between each
    -20 min of cool down

    This really hurts, but you will notice a huge difference not only in your endurance but your short burst since you have to do them when you are fatigued.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooddude View Post
    I personally like the following workout, but only after one day of EASY riding (< 1 hour at grandma pace) and one day totally off the bike:
    -3 hours solid of endurance pace (zone 2) or 2000 kJ of zone 2 if you have a power meter
    -2 x 20 min @ FTP w/ 5 rest between each
    -1 x 5 min @ VO2max - 5 min rest after
    -6 x 2 min @ VO2max - 3 min rest between each
    -6 x 1 min full sprints - 3 min rest between each
    -20 min of cool down

    This really hurts, but you will notice a huge difference not only in your endurance but your short burst since you have to do them when you are fatigued.
    Sure looks like a hard workout. I don't see how you are going to develop short burst from this. You want to develop full power after 4 hours on bike for 6 x 1 min full sprints? I could see if you did 6x1m first, like Hunter Allen suggests in his 'kitchen sink workout', then Vo2 max, then threshold or SST. My point being, say your best 1 min power is 600 watts, what kind of power do you put out after all the other stuff and 4 hours on bike?

    Is this supposed to help the OP?

  14. #14
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    I thought the OP wanted to be able to get his "long race game going" and wanted work on one of his weaknesses "micro bursts"? This workout does both, but it is a break thru workout, not an everyday interval workout!
    This isn't mine, but Huter Allen's workout - here is what he says:
    "This is a race specific Hunter Allen "signature"workout that kills but is a break thru workout that will toughen you for amazing depth when you need it most, that last lap!!"

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooddude View Post
    I thought the OP wanted to be able to get his "long race game going" and wanted work on one of his weaknesses "micro bursts"? This workout does both, but it is a break thru workout, not an everyday interval workout!
    This isn't mine, but Huter Allen's workout - here is what he says:
    "This is a race specific Hunter Allen "signature"workout that kills but is a break thru workout that will toughen you for amazing depth when you need it most, that last lap!!"
    Ok - now I get it.

    Kind of a road race simulation workout to duplicate break away's, attacks and sprint's @ finish. Definitely will make you dig deep! Would not want to do it to often.

    Good find!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooddude View Post
    I personally like the following workout, but only after one day of EASY riding (< 1 hour at grandma pace) and one day totally off the bike:
    -3 hours solid of endurance pace (zone 2) or 2000 kJ of zone 2 if you have a power meter
    -2 x 20 min @ FTP w/ 5 rest between each
    -1 x 5 min @ VO2max - 5 min rest after
    -6 x 2 min @ VO2max - 3 min rest between each
    -6 x 1 min full sprints - 3 min rest between each
    -20 min of cool down

    This really hurts, but you will notice a huge difference not only in your endurance but your short burst since you have to do them when you are fatigued.
    Scott merceir talked about a similar workout when he was on the national team. 3-4 hour zone2, and a final hour of full throttle motor pacing. Ouch.
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  17. #17
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    Actually, this is a MTB specific workout. Hunter recommends you do the 3 hours on the road, than get on the MTB for the "work". I try to do this workout once or twice a month, my power has always gone significantly up after!
    I think this workout not only challenges you physically, but mentally as well. Imagine that this workout will help power you up Iron Mountain (the last climb of P2P)!

  18. #18
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    Thanks guys. That's exactly what I was looking for. I had a good weekend and I think it will fit in well. I did a 3.5 hr 4900 ft ride Saturday and 2.5 hr 4500 Sunday. Monday off, Tuesday 2 hrs w/3600 ft and I will really try and stay on that schedule you laid out Ponch. I will try a version of moodudes ass kicker workout after the tenth. It could be a bit much for me if I'm racing on the Saturday that week. Hoverbike, how vertical? What would you shoot for? I have a lot of climbing available. Thanks, ryon.
    ATV = fat A$$

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooddude View Post
    I personally like the following workout, but only after one day of EASY riding (< 1 hour at grandma pace) and one day totally off the bike:
    -3 hours solid of endurance pace (zone 2) or 2000 kJ of zone 2 if you have a power meter
    -2 x 20 min @ FTP w/ 5 rest between each
    -1 x 5 min @ VO2max - 5 min rest after
    -6 x 2 min @ VO2max - 3 min rest between each
    -6 x 1 min full sprints - 3 min rest between each
    -20 min of cool down

    This really hurts, but you will notice a huge difference not only in your endurance but your short burst since you have to do them when you are fatigued.
    I like this. Reminds me of a lot of the suffer fest stuff I do in the winter. Just need to be able to get myself to do this when riding outside!

  20. #20
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    So, both of the fifty milers went well, but I was tired last week and had a family trip. According to my plan, I was to increase my hours to about 16 hrs for the week, I failed and was around 11 hrs! Is there anything wrong with having this week be the big week and resting into p2p on a 12 hr week going into it?
    Thanks,
    Ryon
    ATV = fat A$$

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by butryon View Post
    So, both of the fifty milers went well, but I was tired last week and had a family trip. According to my plan, I was to increase my hours to about 16 hrs for the week, I failed and was around 11 hrs! Is there anything wrong with having this week be the big week and resting into p2p on a 12 hr week going into it?
    Thanks,
    Ryon
    Try doing 14-16 this week, you should be okay. Go big on Saturday and less on Sunday.

    For the week of PCP2P, do 2 hours max on Tuesday, and 1 hour max each day into Saturday race. Keep the intensity mostly aerobic with a few hard efforts each ride.

    I believe you can still gain some fitness this week for the race, but in final week you really gain nothing and potential exist for overdoing it.
    Head Coach, Ben Lomond HS MTB Team
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  22. #22
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    Thanks Ponch. I sorta caught a bit of a head cold last week, kept riding and it made me pretty tired. Between a cold and how hot and dry it is here, I lost a bit of motivation. I'll try and do Friday and Saturday as bigger rides of three to four hours. I've had some pretty high intensity 1:40-2:15 rides w/only a few 3hr rides. I hope this creates some magic legs come the 31st. Thanks again, Ryon.
    ATV = fat A$$

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