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  1. #1
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    Full Sus - One Cage - Race Set Up - Hydration / Tire / Air / Etc

    >>> Full Sus Race Bikes with only one H2O cage, what are good race set ups? Assume the race is two+ Hrs (25 miles or more, basically a two bottle requirement... side bar >>> I would post this in Endurance, but this forum seems more active and full of this type of info). Assume a camelback is not an option.

    Mounting a cage on the seat post seems interesting... if you do this, where to you carry tube(s), air, etc?

    Note: My Epic is a size small >>> and I love "big air" canisters >>> obviously this size and type frame is tight for space ... and I am in search of some good ideas that don't fill up my jersey pockets.

    Please post your race set ups (sans camelback)>>>

    TIA
    "Money can't buy you happiness. But it can buy you a yacht and you can sail right up next to it!" David Lee Roth

  2. #2
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    2nd Bottle in the jersey pocket.

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    Do you know if the race has any water stations on course? I race a SC Blur with 1 bottle and use the aid stations. If there is some concern about running out of water, I use one of those collapsible bottles in my Jersey pocket, only had to use one once.

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    I also have an Epic, and my bike came with bottle cage mounts that attach to the seat post. I use this for longer rides/races. If your bike did not come with the mounts, this is what they look like: MTB Rear Cage Mount.

    Make sure you mount the bottle high enough to allow for suspension travel, or your tire will hit the bottle! Also you will need a very strong bottle cage for this application. I use the Lezyne Power Cage which is super strong, but I am looking for something a little lighter that works.

    If necessary I will carry a 3rd bottle in a jersey pocket for endurance races if the laps are long enough to require it.

    I carry my tube/tool/air in my jersey pocket, but maybe you could tape them to the top tube or stem? A saddle bag will probably interfere with a bottle mounted on the seatpost, unless you have a lot of seatpost exposed. You may be able to fit an Awesome Strap from Backcountry Research, also look at the Tourniquet or Mutherload.

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    QUOTE: "Make sure you mount the bottle high enough to allow for suspension travel, or your tire will hit the bottle! Also you will need a very strong bottle cage for this application."

    WillTheGreat... what a good little "pearl"... I would not have thought of this and just mounted one for a race in a few days. No, I would never have checked and I don't have a lot of available post. AH Bummer... off to the garage to check... (Damn)
    "Money can't buy you happiness. But it can buy you a yacht and you can sail right up next to it!" David Lee Roth

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    I would trail test the cage you are using before the race! I broke two cages, and two others loosened up after a few miles and dropped the bottles. This mounting is very hard on the cage since it is upside down.

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    Full Sus - One Cage - Race Set Up - Hydration / Tire / Air / Etc

    Quote Originally Posted by WillTheGreat View Post
    I would trail test the cage you are using before the race! I broke two cages, and two others loosened up after a few miles and dropped the bottles. This mounting is very hard on the cage since it is upside down.
    Cateye BC-100 cage.
    Unbreakable. Never drops a bottle. I have been using them for more than 20 years.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  8. #8
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    Full Sus - One Cage - Race Set Up - Hydration / Tire / Air / Etc

    If you're in Denver, Colorado does it actually get that hot? If it's only going to be 15c or so I'd have thought that you could quite happily get away with one bottle for a two to three hour race. If you train with just one bottle you soon get used to only drinking when you're thirsty.

    http://www.rssweather.com/climate/Colorado/Denver/

    With a Specialized Epic frame a side loading bottle cage is best because the red rebound dial on the brain rear shock is very close to the water bottle. If you use a standard bottle cage it's easy to knock the rebound dial by accident, turning it to full fast rebound when you pull the bottle in and out of the cage.

    Do you have an Epic 29er and ride with a water bottle. read this!!!

    Not all water bottles are the same capacity. You have the small 500ml bottles but then there are quite a few bottles in between that size and a 750ml bottle. Something like a Specialized Purist bottle is available in a 650ml size, which would allow you to carry a little more fluid than if you're currently using a 500ml water bottle.

    http://www.specialized.com/us/en/ftb...tergate-bottle

    What you could also try would be to have a drink of water immediately before you set off, 250ml of plain cold water, rather than energy drink, so that it's sitting in your stomach. That way you're carrying the fluid with you, you won't feel thirsty and can get away with short sips early on. I much prefer plain water for this and then energy drink whilst riding. It's one of those things to experiment with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    If you're in Denver, Colorado does it actually get that hot? If it's only going to be 15c or so I'd have thought that you could quite happily get away with one bottle for a two to three hour race.
    The one thing I will say about living, training and racing in Denver/Foothills is that can be dry and arid. Get caught out in the sun and behind on your liquids and you can get into trouble. I would not recommend one bottle for a 3 hr race unless your planning on stopping at most of the rest stops...

    For longer races I usually compromise and wear a small camelbak to avoid that issue. However, It seems that most of the "fast guys" don't seem to wear them though in my races, so maybe I just need to man up

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    Just rode the Half Growler last weekend and carried full hydro pack with a spare bottle. Only drank 2 bottles and not even half of the hydro bladder. I saw quite a few racers (both for the half and the full) carry one bottle in the cage and one in a pocket. Tubes and gu's were taped to the frame. There were enough aid stations where only one bottle worked, although stopping was required. I am signed up for the Firecracker 50 and plan on going with only 1 bottle, maybe a bottle in a pocket as well. I plan on doing some training like this to make sure this will work for me though.

  11. #11
    Rod
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    I normally do laps and grap my 2nd bottle on the next lap. If you're not doing laps you could preride part of the course and drop off a bottle. I've never had to use a bottle on my seatpost so I'll leave that for others to discuss. I like the idea though. I put air, tube, etc. under my seat or in my jersey pockets.
    There is not much choice between rotten apples.

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    About the Colorado weather... I would love to agree about the one bottle thing bc it's cool. Unfortunately, between the sun and altitude, (and I have to agree with DenverPoke), getting behind on H20 and electrolytes is not an option, the dreaded bonk hits hard and it will hit you... learned this the hard way on more than one occasion.

    I am trying to avoid the camelback (have one, used one, don't care for the load on my back while racing, just personal preference).

    This weekend, think i will go with: Bottle in frame, smaller bottle on seat post (sideloader Spec cage). Duck-Tape tire to TT of frame. Air and minimal tools in center pocket. Keeping food, electrolys and H2o all separate. H20 in bottles, electolytes in form gel and capsule, food at lap station, Perpetuem chews and bonk buster in pocket.

    66 miles, three laps. ... big ring type race (this time).
    "Money can't buy you happiness. But it can buy you a yacht and you can sail right up next to it!" David Lee Roth

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    18" Salsa Spearfish here from Fort Collins. When I'm racing I but one large water bottle in the frame and one in my center back pocket. I will use smaller bottles if its cool out and O wont drink as much. I keep tube multi tool and leavers under my seat with an Awesome strap and a Big Air strapped to the seat post under it. Swapping bottles mid race takes a bit of practice but its not too bad.

  14. #14
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    Here's my old RX29 (sorry for fuzzy pic) which had the same 30.9mm seatpost as Specialized, so I used the aforementioned Specialized Seatpost mount with a King bottlecage. The Kings are simple, functional and I have never, ever lost a bottle with King cages. BigAir & spare tube strapped to seat rails with a ByeKyle strap. I don't think you can get the ByeKyle's anymore but the Awesome strap is basically the same thing.
    Another option that other endurance racers have used successfully are the Twofish Quick cage.... Twofish Unlimited - Bicycle Accessory Fasteners. I can't speak from experience on this one though.

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  15. #15
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    You've got two ways to address the limitations of how much fluid you can carry with you. Along with trying to add extra bottles to the bike you can also try to reduce how much fluid you need during the race. If you don't need as much then you don't have to carry as much with you.

    If you train without drinking much you get better at not needing so much fluid. By riding without drinking much during rides your body adapts and becomes used to it. Try just drinking when you're thirsty.

    If you're sweating a lot, even in a relatively cool climate, it can be worth considering your clothing. If you can reduce how much you're sweating out then you won't get dehydrated as rapidly. Things such as switching to a better ventilated helmet (eg: Giro Aeon), close cropped haircut, thinner clothing (eg: lycra cycling shorts instead of baggies, a thinner base layer, thin coolmax socks, summer shoes with mesh vents in etc) and starting off in short sleeves from the beginning of the race instead of arm warmers are all small things which can help. Camelbak's are particularly bad for that. Although you're carrying more fluid the pack on your back makes you sweat more also. Sun cream can make a difference too. The thick sun cream lotions can act like embrocation, keeping heat in and making you sweat a lot more than you would otherwise.

    Whenever you do drink from your bottle taking a small sip and then holding the water in your mouth for as long as possible makes you feel less thirsty. If you gulp the water down you begin feeling thirsty sooner than if you keep it in your mouth.

    Using a strong mix of energy drink in your bottle and lots of energy gels can be counter productive too. When you take in an energy gel your body needs water along with it for absorption. Lots of energy gels without enough water can actually end up causing dehydration.

    Importance of drinking water with energy gels | Trail Running Club

    If you can't carry much water with you then you'll often feel better using a dilute energy drink, or even plain water, along with small amounts of solid food at regular intervals, rather than a strong energy drink and lots of energy gels. I'll have small chunks of a quaker oats cereal bar (one bar per hour of riding).

    Quaker Oats UK - Breakfast On The Go - Morning Bars

    Caffeine will dehydrate you too. If you avoid any caffeine based pre-workout products, coffee etc that tends to help too. You may get a short term boost, but then later on it can pay you back with interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    If you train without drinking much you get better at not needing so much fluid. By riding without drinking much during rides your body adapts and becomes used to it. Try just drinking when you're thirsty.
    Without trying to come across as overly harsh, this sounds ridiculous. Seen lots of studies on the importance of hydration, have any studies to show how you would adapt your body to less than optimal hydration?
    [

  17. #17
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    Full Sus - One Cage - Race Set Up - Hydration / Tire / Air / Etc

    Quote Originally Posted by KonaSS View Post
    Without trying to come across as overly harsh, this sounds ridiculous. Seen lots of studies on the importance of hydration, have any studies to show how you would adapt your body to less than optimal hydration?



    -------------------------------------------

    Heat Stress, Plasma Volume, and the Benefits of Dehydration
    "Anyway, one of the best things about conferences like this is the chance to chat informally with people and find out what they're currently up to and working on. One of those conversations led me back to a topic that got some brief attention a few years ago: training in heat to produce big jumps in endurance performance. There was a University of Oregon study back in 2010 that had trained cyclists do 10 days of heat acclimation -- 100 minutes of exercise in the heat each day -- and saw a 5% jump in VO2max measured in cool conditions by the end of study. In other words, heat acclimation doesn't just make you better at dealing with heat; it makes you better, period. The researchers suggested that athletes could use this type of protocol just like they use altitude training camps, as a short-term intervention to improve performance. The study got quite a bit of attention, but I hadn't heard much about athletes and coaches actually adopting the idea.

    It turns out there has been more research on this, and elite athletes are definitely using it. A New Zealand study published in 2012 in the European Journal of Applied Physics used elite rowers, and put them through a shorter protocol: just five days, 90 minutes per day. The rowers were in a room at 40 C and 60% humidity, and they rowed at an intensity just sufficient to keep their core temperature at a "modest" overheating level of 38.5 C. The training itself wasn't particularly hard: the goal was to overheat the rowers, not overwork them, and the 5-day acclimation period started two weeks before a major championship competition. The result: a 1.5% increase in 2,000m rowing performance.

    There are a lot of different mechanisms that may be coming into play here, but I'm going to greatly simplify some of the practical takeaways as I understand them:

    (1) The biggest benefit of heat acclimation may be plasma volume expansion. Just as altitude stimulates your body to produce more red blood cells, heat stress stimulates your body to produce more plasma. The result is a greater cardiac output, and higher VO2 at a given effort level. In the New Zealand study, resting plasma volume increased by 4.5%, even though the the athletes had very high plasma volume to start; in the Oregon study, plasma volume increased by 6.5%.

    (2) One of the key signals that tells your body to adapt may be dehydration. So if you do the heat acclimation but are super-careful to stay hydrated, you miss out on the benefits. In the New Zealand study, the athletes were allowed 100 mL of water during the 90-minute bouts -- enough to stave of the feeling of being super-dehydrated, but not enough to stay hydrated. The benchmark some athletes are using: if you're not at least 2% dehydrated, you drank too much; 3% is good; 4% is too much. (Note: this is just for the heat acclimation sessions, not a universal rule for all training sessions!)

    (3) This approach can be combined with altitude. Spend a couple of weeks up high to boost red blood cells, then a week in the heat to boost plasma volume, then maybe 7-10 days in normal conditions and you're ready to go.

    The more general takeaway I draw from this is the importance of allowing your body to undergo training-induced stresses, rather than making heroic efforts to cushion your body from discomfort. That has been a theme of recent research in a variety of areas -- like nutrition (the adaptation benefits of doing some of your training with low or depleted energy stores), and recovery (the potential for things like ice-baths and antioxidants to suppress the signals that are supposed to tell your body to adapt and get stronger). This suggests to me that, in situations where safety and health aren't a concern (i.e. not ultra runs and not during heat waves!), leaving the water bottle at home may be a good call." Alex Hutchinson

    http://www.runnersworld.com/race-tra...of-dehydration

    ---------------------------------------------

    Some other links on the subject of drinking to thirst, as opposed to always drinking a set amount of fluid.

    http://www.irunfar.com/2012/07/water...ring-book.html

    http://www.irunfar.com/2012/08/water...marathons.html

    http://www.amazon.com/Waterlogged-Se...9916998-486342

    There's a bit on taking small sips of carbohydrate drink here. There was an article specifically about thirst also but I couldn't find it again. If I do I'll post the link.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Carbohydrate mouth rinse: does it improve endurance exercise performance?
    By Vitor de Salles Painelli, Humberto Nicastro, and Antonio H Lancha, Jr
    Nutr J. 2010; 9: 33.
    Published online 2010 August 27. doi: 10.1186/1475-2891-9-33
    PMCID: PMC2936414

    "Jeukendrup's group was the first to innovate in this direction. They observed a 2.9% decrease in a time-trial test at 75% Wmáx lasting about 1 hour, rinsing the subjects' mouths for 5 seconds with a CHO solution (25 ml containing 6.4% maltodextrin), every 12.5% of the trial completed [9]. The above finding strengthened the hypothesis of the possible central effect of CHO on exercise performance and that this could be acting through activation of receptors linked to the brain.

    Seeking mechanisms to elucidate the above results, Chambers et al. [16] evaluated the effect of CHO rinsing (a solution containing glucose and/or maltodextrin) in a cycle time-trial of 1 hour. The authors used magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) method in a second set of experiments to identify possible areas of brain activated with CHO mouth rinse. Trained cyclists performed a time trial (75% of maximal work for 1 hour) in 3 different situations: glucose, maltodextrin, or placebo mouth rinse with a washout period of at least 3 days. All situations were performed after 6-hour fasting. An artificial sweetener was added to the solutions in order to reduce sensory clues. The mouth rinse protocol lasted ~10 seconds and the solution was rinsed every 12.5% of the trial completed.

    The results showed that a solution with 6.4% glucose and/or maltodextrin produced an improvement of 2-3% in the time trial and the average power when compared to placebo. There were no differences between the solutions containing different types of CHO. MRI evaluations showed that CHO mouth rinse activated supraspinal pathways of the brain related to motivation and reward during the exercise. Brain activation was similar to the solutions of glucose and maltodextrin, while the placebo solution did not produce the activation of these areas. These results demonstrate the important role of CHO mouth rinse on exercise performance, which could be an interesting strategy being used by athletes who suffer from gastrointestinal discomfort, for example, due to the CHO ingestion during the exercise." Vitor de Salles Painelli, Humberto Nicastro, and Antonio H Lancha, Jr

    Full Text:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2936414/

    -----------------------------------------

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by strat819 View Post
    This weekend, think i will go with: Bottle in frame, smaller bottle on seat post (sideloader Spec cage). Duck-Tape tire to TT of frame. Air and minimal tools in center pocket. Keeping food, electrolys and H2o all separate. H20 in bottles, electolytes in form gel and capsule, food at lap station, Perpetuem chews and bonk buster in pocket.

    66 miles, three laps. ... big ring type race (this time).
    I assume you did the PV cycle Derby... I did the 44 mile version which was long enough for me personally. How did your nutrition/pacing go?

    I started with a 2 hr Perpetium bottle in the frame and a water bottle in the jersey. Took watered down Hammer Gel and electrolyte pills and took both as needed. Switched to a Heed bottle after my first lap (then got another bottle after the first loop on the 2nd lap). Still faded on the 2nd part of the 2nd lap. Got inner quad cramps at 3:20 (~40 miles), they went away, but I was fairly toasted. I am fairly certain that my cramps are training/preparation related...

    A hard day and a fun course though!

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