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  1. #1
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    fueling with protein - questions

    I understand that when doing longer workouts, there is a need for protein so your body does not cannabilize muscle tissue.

    According to Hammer Nutrition, it is 2 hours. According to the makers of Accelerade, it is 1 hour. So how do they come up with that? Is it the same for every person?

    So does this mean if I am doing a 2 hour ride, for the first hour I should fuel with carbs (Heed, Hammer Gel, etc) Then after the first hour have protein (Accel Gel, Perpetuem)? What happens if I fuel with protein right from the start?

    How do I know how much I need?

  2. #2
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    I run my own fuel mix of carbs and protein. I add 4g of protein in the mix mainly to stop any hunger during enduro rides/races.
    cheers
    Pagey

  3. #3
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    If you’re low on carbs, the body will begin feeding on the muscle and protein within. Personally; I don’t want that to happen. I would continue consuming carbs to prevent muscle consumption for as long as possible. If you’re out for longer periods of time, you should add some protein. As you carb up, add very small amounts of protein.
    Recommendations are based on weather, sweat and size. It’s best to do a little trial & error to see what best works for you. I’m still figuring it out myself.
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  4. #4
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    carbs / fats are your fuel really, the protein rebuilds. (layman's terms)....If you are going past a couple hours taking in a little of all the macronutrients is probably smart.

    My longest sessions were about 2 hours...I didn't take in anything during. I'd have a bit of oatmeal and some protein pre-workout then a post workout type shake with a lot of sugars and protein.

    It kept me moving forward and not losing muscle mass.

  5. #5
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    protein

    My body needs some protein after an hour and a half into a race-it's an individual thing. The protein (not sure why) seems to help prevent cramps in my legs.

    You should experiment with accelerade or pertutuem after an hour of hard riding for a few weeks then switch to an hour and a half then 2 hours to see which one suites you best.

    If you are not going hard you can extend the period even longer. The key is getting the protein after the ride (with carbs) to refuel for the next workout.
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  6. #6
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    What would happen if I drank Perpetuem right from the start of a ride?

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    Quote Originally Posted by _tom_
    What would happen if I drank Perpetuem right from the start of a ride?
    everyone is different. I prefer to drink supplemental drinks prior and after and then just water during.

    Occasionally if I hit a low I will gulp down one of the energy drinks.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by alkemyst
    everyone is different...
    Everyone's taste or habits, you mean...

    Current research indicates that taking in a small amount of protein immediately before and immediately after a workout generates more lean muscle tissue and burns more fat than not (following that process).

    Best post intake=flavoured milk. proteins,carbs, hydration, etc. All boxes ticked.
    Ego maniacs please object to my posts.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feideaux
    Everyone's taste or habits, you mean...

    Current research indicates that taking in a small amount of protein immediately before and immediately after a workout generates more lean muscle tissue and burns more fat than not (following that process).

    Best post intake=flavoured milk. proteins,carbs, hydration, etc. All boxes ticked.
    Muscle is built because its repaired. To be repaired it needs to be damaged. When damaged, different hormones are released. It is not the addition of protein that build muscle or we could just watch TV, eat proteins and look like bodybuilders.
    As far as research: resistance exercise? endurance exercise? population? etc, etc
    Its way more complex than your statement

    BTW, proteins decrease the rate of gastric emptying so it is not recommended during exercise since it could upset your stomach (depending on intensity) and you want whatever you are eating/drinking to go to your muscles and not "bounce" in your stomach.
    Research shows that positive energy balance is far more important to build muscle that the intake of protein. You can eat all the protein in the world and if your energy intake is negative you will NOT build muscle. On the other hand, we usually eat more than enough protein and a high carbohydrate diet will give you the energy needed to synthesize protein

    Agree on the chocolate milk, good post workout/recovery drink although not much sodium

  10. #10
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    You need both carbohydrates and protein. Carbohydrates are used to replace depleted glycogen stores and increased protein synthesis. While amino acids/proteins are the raw material used to repair the muscle tissue damaged during exercise. As for consuming protein during exercise I found this article interesting: http://www.straightfromthedoc.com/50...beneficial.php
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    Muscle is built because its repaired. To be repaired it needs to be damaged. When damaged, different hormones are released. It is not the addition of protein that build muscle or we could just watch TV, eat proteins and look like bodybuilders.
    As far as research: resistance exercise? endurance exercise? population? etc, etc
    Its way more complex than your statement

    Agree on the chocolate milk, good post workout/recovery drink although not much sodium
    I did actually mention that a workout was required

    Study was done using (Olympic) weightlifters at the Australian Institute of Sport. Will have a look for the research paper.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feideaux
    I did actually mention that a workout was required

    Study was done using (Olympic) weightlifters at the Australian Institute of Sport. Will have a look for the research paper.
    then the study is on resistance exercise not in endurace. Also, the stimuli to build muscle is there (weight lifting)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti2424
    You need both carbohydrates and protein. Carbohydrates are used to replace depleted glycogen stores and increased protein synthesis. While amino acids/proteins are the raw material used to repair the muscle tissue damaged during exercise. As for consuming protein during exercise I found this article interesting: http://www.straightfromthedoc.com/50...beneficial.php
    That's pretty much what science says about protein now as far as endurance exercise: not necesary.
    Check this one "Nutrition and Performance Protein Nutrition and Endurance Exercise: What Does Science Say? "
    http://www.gssiweb.com/Article_Detai...evel=2&topic=8

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feideaux
    Everyone's taste or habits, you mean...

    Current research indicates that taking in a small amount of protein immediately before and immediately after a workout generates more lean muscle tissue and burns more fat than not (following that process).

    Best post intake=flavoured milk. proteins,carbs, hydration, etc. All boxes ticked.
    You corrected me but just reiterated what I said in the part you didn't quote..

    However; I was correct in everyone is different. Not everyone responds the same way, you are going on what works for most though.

    Also what works for a pre-strength workout vs XC run vs marathon is a lot different.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by _tom_
    What would happen if I drank Perpetuem right from the start of a ride?
    try it but not during the race, although in like conditions (same intensity) to feel the impact in gastric emptying

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    then the study is on resistance exercise not in endurace. Also, the stimuli to build muscle is there (weight lifting)
    Keep in mind though that cycling is both an endurance and resistance exercise.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti2424
    Keep in mind though that cycling is both an endurance and resistance exercise.
    Generally speaking cycling is a physical activity. An aerobic (cardiovascular) exercise means that is rhythmic, involves large muscle groups and it is performed for a prolonged time. Weight training for example is the classic resistance or strenght exercise since is very high intensity and you rest between sets. There are different fuel sources that power those exercises as well as different adaptations

    if you push a big gear, stand and smash or do hills you will be pushing the pedal and the resistance will increase but that doesn't make it a resistance exercise per se.
    You could play with intensity and make it anaerobic but the purpose is to travel long distances which is by definition and endurance activity

    I think that we could go forever with this

  18. #18
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    go with the waximaize for 2 hr races, if you get your hands on some whey pro complex do a scoup before and after end you want bonk

    for longer races do a scoop of whey each hr. and you should kik butt. it's okay to pee while racing on the bike, just don't be a douche-bag, let folks pass you
    Look to where the river ends, or where the river starts...

  19. #19
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    Interesting discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    then the study is on resistance exercise not in endurace. Also, the stimuli to build muscle is there (weight lifting)
    Yes and no - the study also looked at the gains the weight lifters made during power orientated exercises (E.g. Jumping from from the squat position with weight, etc).

    MTB is an endurance activity, but SRM/powertap data tells us that those who actually win are able to frequently produce (and recover from) sustained efforts of power more frequently than those who cannot. Adequate protein is required when developing these attributes in training.

    Where am I going with this...

    I guess we are all in agreement that protein is important and shouldn't be overlooked!

    Great discussion guys.
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  20. #20
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    Perpetuem..

    I've been using Perpetuem on long rides this summer.

    Before using it, I had carb mix of drinks and energy bars. I always had some sort of hunger pang no matter how many bars I ate, and also had some sort of 'gut rot' every now and then. Also cramped up every so often.

    Now, in an 8 hour ride I'll consume 2 bottles of Perpetuem, sipping from them throughout the ride and have no hunger issues or gut rot. And no cramping.

    I also use a carb mix in my camelbak, and Recoverite post rides.

    Works for me, but to each his own!
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  21. #21
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    if i can get a good sale on the protein powder i pick it up, i prefer to loose weight not bulk up, so i don't need the protein powder every day. today i hit the gym, but i don't up on too much weights
    Look to where the river ends, or where the river starts...

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkmacman
    if i can get a good sale on the protein powder i pick it up, i prefer to loose weight not bulk up, so i don't need the protein powder every day. today i hit the gym, but i don't up on too much weights
    “Bulking up” should be the least of your worries. It takes a concerted effort of high repetition work and a huge calorie surplus to gain large amounts of muscle mass. If you are eating calorie neutral (intake equals expenditure) then you will likely not gain weight.

    Proper pre and post exercise nutrition should be followed every day to enhance recovery allowing for a greater training volume.

    Also, you are actually less likely to put on muscle mass when performing low repletion high intensity work.
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  23. #23
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    Yeti2424, I see from your website that you are following a Paleo diet. After reading "Paleo Diet for Athletes" I started reading a lot more on nutrition and health. There is A LOT of stuff to learn, outside of the cycling community about health, nutrition, performance and so on. I personaly have been on a very-low carb way of eating for the last 10 months (less than 50g a day, ...there are 41g of sugar/carbs in one can of coke...) and taking the one vitamin that is a precursor to many "activities" inside your body, vitamin D3.

    I went on a cycling camp back in May. Before the ride, (breakfast) I ate bacon, ham and eggs. No sugar whatsoever. No fruits, no nothing. We did 60 to 100 miles rides. I was the only one not eating anything when we would stop to take a break. My friends kept telling me: "you'll need energy if you want to finish the ride..." I now know my body relies on fat for energy expenditure. here is 3500 calories in one pound of fat. That's (a lot)more than anyone spends on a full-out 2-hour ride. I'm 5'6", 128lbs. 10% BF, meaning I have PLENTY of reserve!!! Once weighed 165lbs....It took me a bit more than 2 weeks to get my body to burn fat (ketones actually) so I felt weird and sometimes crappy while my body tried to adjust. It's mostly about controlling indulin in your body.

    I also started racing again this last summer and I surprised myself (and others...) specially being the only SS rider in the field....

    I understand (believe me, I do...) most of you think we need sugar/carbs, but the fact is, your body does not need any. It produces everything it needs from the fat and protein you ingest. Gluconeogenesis.

    One very good book, if you want to learn more: "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes. There is tons of de-mistifying of cholesterol, fat, and other subjects, everything with backed-up references.

    I'm just telling you about my personal experience here.

    Cheers,

    Johnnydrz

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feideaux
    Yes and no - the study also looked at the gains the weight lifters made during power orientated exercises (E.g. Jumping from from the squat position with weight, etc).

    MTB is an endurance activity, but SRM/powertap data tells us that those who actually win are able to frequently produce (and recover from) sustained efforts of power more frequently than those who cannot. Adequate protein is required when developing these attributes in training.

    Where am I going with this...

    I guess we are all in agreement that protein is important and shouldn't be overlooked!

    Great discussion guys.
    ....And studies tell us that people eat too much protein; that the requirements of athletes are not as big a people think (nitrogen balance studies) and that's why recommendation are as high as 1.8g/kg/day for athletes which is reached with a normal diet.
    Caloric balance IS the most important factor for muscle accretion. Also studies show that in the initial phase (beginner) is when the person neds more protein but when the athlete is a seasoned one they don't need that much....
    when you talk about the ability to recover from subsequent efforts, you are talking about muscle endurance...

    look at how much protein you need to build 1 pound of muscle... muscle is around 60% water; we don't need that much. All macronutrients are important

    Out

  25. #25
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    I read the “Paleo Diet for Athletes” all the way through on Halloween night last year (while passing out sugar filled candy to children no doubt). The book seriously changed my life. Processed grains, rice and sugars are basically removed from my diet. The majority of my carbohydrates come from fruits, nuts, and vegetables and the bulk of them are consumed prior to and immediately following exercise. Never felt better.

    It sounds like you have trained your body to oxidize fat at a higher percentage:
    http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/100/1/7
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...70b08b3ea42fa4
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2279002/
    http://www.adaevidencelibrary.com/wo...heet_id=251657
    http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/reprint/100/1/194.pdf
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