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Thread: Dim/dhea

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    lgh
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    Dim/dhea

    This might be a sensitive topic since, I believe, DHEA is banned by some governing bodies. Tested athletes probably shouldn't use at least the DHEA. Nevertheless, the combo is recommended by some including Andy Pruitt who nobody would call a cheater. It fits in the category of hormonal manipulation (HM). Some regard HM THE key to athletic development. That explains why it's at the center of most doping scandals.

    Larry
    Last edited by lgh; 10-11-2011 at 08:37 AM.

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    It definitely falls into the realm of pharma enhanced performance (WADA identified substance) and as such is viewed in our house as cheating regardless of effect.

    a physician might take a different view as they can take the stance that they are treating symptoms and a patient, not an athlete and their sporting performance. however if the physician knowingly prescribes the use of a banned substance i think they are more guilty than the athlete taking the banned substance. i feel this is the root of the "problem" in sport, doctors or other management/authority figures pushing or suggesting that the athletes seek out the cheating path. deplorable...

    ...or if you want to take the other route it should be legal for athletes at the Pro/Elite level to do whatever they want to enhance their performance. certainly it is ignored in other sports (football, soccer, etc) yet cycling gets all twisted up about it. i think it is exciting to see the super-human performances that doping brings out of the athletes, watching Lance dance on the pedals while Jan and Vino chased was one of the things that drew my wife and I into cycling. that is what we want right? a spectacle?

    maybe because in my mind there is a separation between the two disciplines (road and mountain) and since i don't race road it makes it okay if "they" are dopers... but really i think that separation is a figment of my imagination. we are all connected as cyclists.

    either way... i wouldn't take anything on the banned substance list and neither will my wife. it just doesn't seem right, but then again we also don't put food on the table racing bikes!
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    Quote Originally Posted by whybotherme View Post
    It definitely falls into the realm of pharma enhanced performance (WADA identified substance) and as such is viewed in our house as cheating regardless of effect.

    a physician might take a different view as they can take the stance that they are treating symptoms and a patient, not an athlete and their sporting performance. however if the physician knowingly prescribes the use of a banned substance i think they are more guilty than the athlete taking the banned substance. i feel this is the root of the "problem" in sport, doctors or other management/authority figures pushing or suggesting that the athletes seek out the cheating path. deplorable...

    ...or if you want to take the other route it should be legal for athletes at the Pro/Elite level to do whatever they want to enhance their performance. certainly it is ignored in other sports (football, soccer, etc) yet cycling gets all twisted up about it. i think it is exciting to see the super-human performances that doping brings out of the athletes, watching Lance dance on the pedals while Jan and Vino chased was one of the things that drew my wife and I into cycling. that is what we want right? a spectacle?

    maybe because in my mind there is a separation between the two disciplines (road and mountain) and since i don't race road it makes it okay if "they" are dopers... but really i think that separation is a figment of my imagination. we are all connected as cyclists.

    either way... i wouldn't take anything on the banned substance list and neither will my wife. it just doesn't seem right, but then again we also don't put food on the table racing bikes!
    wait till you get old....

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    wait till you get old....
    getting "old" means i justify having to use pharma to enhance myself? or getting "old" gives me some higher sense of morality and the importance of honesty and integrity?

    for the record i am not arguing either way on the pharma issue for anyone other than me and my wife. others can do as they please.

    i am far from "old" but as a Master's racer i don't doubt i race with people that are pharma enhanced. i don't really care what they do. racing is just something to give me a competitive outlet and keep me motivated to not gain back all the weight i lost in the last 6 years. i expect to slow down in coming years, just like i expect to deal with a lot of pain from the abuse i have dished out to my body. it isn't easy to get "old" but i have some really inspirational people as role models! Nancy "Denmo" Harris, Dean Swank, and several others that exemplify the idea that if you only get what you fight for and the idea of getting "old" is separate from "aging".
    My wife's website....
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    Quote Originally Posted by whybotherme View Post
    getting "old" means i justify having to use pharma to enhance myself? or getting "old" gives me some higher sense of morality and the importance of honesty and integrity?

    for the record i am not arguing either way on the pharma issue for anyone other than me and my wife. others can do as they please.

    i am far from "old" but as a Master's racer i don't doubt i race with people that are pharma enhanced. i don't really care what they do. racing is just something to give me a competitive outlet and keep me motivated to not gain back all the weight i lost in the last 6 years. i expect to slow down in coming years, just like i expect to deal with a lot of pain from the abuse i have dished out to my body. it isn't easy to get "old" but i have some really inspirational people as role models! Nancy "Denmo" Harris, Dean Swank, and several others that exemplify the idea that if you only get what you fight for and the idea of getting "old" is separate from "aging".
    Clearly not old yet....and BTW everyone either gets old then dies or just dies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    wait till you get old....
    Does ones moral compass change with the coming of age?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Does ones moral compass change with the coming of age?
    Well yes and no....

    As pain troubles increases people will look for solutions that they would have avoided previously...

    Is that a change in the moral compass maybe for some, or is it simply balancing needs and wants....probably closer to the second.

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    There's a similar thread here:

    Dhea ??

    Just to clarify: If you look at page 3 of the WADA list of prohibited compounds DHEA is specifically listed as not being allowed.

    http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Wo...st_2011_EN.pdf

    There are many cases where athletes have failed drugs tests for DHEA and been banned. Here are a couple of recent US examples:

    Bicycle .net :: Tom Zirbel Tests Positive For DHEA

    Williams Handed Two-year Ban By USADA | Cyclingnews.com

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    lgh
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    Although DHEA is a steroid, DIM is a naturally occurring, plant-derived nutrient. They both act on similar hormone metabolic pathways. DHEA is not a regulated substance for the general public and can be bought dirt cheap and without a prescription. For the average person, DHEA is probably no more dangerous than other non-regulated substances. i.e. Don't take half the bottle of DHEA just like you wouldn't drink a whole bottle of whiskey or swallow 20 benadryl. The fact that it is banned by WADA does not mean it is "bad" for others. Non-tested athletes routinely take various meds, OTC and prescription, that are banned by governing bodies. I was therefore hoping to warn tested athletes about their use but at the same time ask others who might have tried the combo (for whatever reason) what they thought.

    Larry

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    LMN
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Well yes and no....

    As pain troubles increases people will look for solutions that they would have avoided previously...

    Is that a change in the moral compass maybe for some, or is it simply balancing needs and wants....probably closer to the second.
    It is one thing to take pharma aids to allow you to do the things you enjoy. It is another thing to take stuff to allow you to compete.

    If you are taking something like DHEA then you have no business ever showing up on a start line.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    If you are taking something like DHEA then you have no business ever showing up on a start line.
    +1

    When I sign up for my race license each year I accept an agreement to abide by the rules of the UCI which includes observing the banned substances list. It's irrelevant whether I'm actually tested.

    If I need or want to be using something on the banned substances list - unless it were by the books with a TUE - I would skip the racing and just enjoy casual riding instead.

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    lgh
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    It is one thing to take pharma aids to allow you to do the things you enjoy. It is another thing to take stuff to allow you to compete.

    If you are taking something like DHEA then you have no business ever showing up on a start line.
    If you are competing according to the rules of your governing body and that body says you cannot take a certain substance, you are correct. You would be cheating if you took it just like you would be cheating if you violated equipment rules.

    However, to be clear, every athlete is already taking "unnatural" substances for the purpose of HM and improved athletic performance. Those substances just aren't on a list. If tomorrow DHEA was not on a list, its use would escalate as athletes experimented with it just like they experiment with a myriad of substances. The users would not be called cheaters and they certainly would be lining up on the starting line. The fact that "It's a Hormone!", per se, doesn't mean much to me. Whether people realize it or not, they are constantly trying to manipulate hormones in ways that are entirely unnatural - mega exercise, recovery drinks, supplements, you name it. That's exactly why they do those things.

    So I don't get kicked off the forum, I should make it clear that I favor banning some substances and procedures from fair competitions and believe athletes should be held accountable for violating the rules. However, lists of those substances and procedures should not be viewed as summaries of studied scientific opinion. They are not.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    It is one thing to take pharma aids to allow you to do the things you enjoy. It is another thing to take stuff to allow you to compete.

    If you are taking something like DHEA then you have no business ever showing up on a start line.
    Ha you stick with that....so any old age classer who uses drugs to help him should be banned from races....

    Yeah that is gonna grow the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Ha you stick with that....so any old age classer who uses drugs to help him should be banned from races....

    Yeah that is gonna grow the sport.
    We have old age classes don't we?

    The whole idea behind masters racing is to compete against people who have the same disadvantage/advantages of being older. When some people start taking drugs to help them race like they did when they were younger they have a distinct advantage.

    I am fairly confident that guys I race against are as clean as a whistle. If I were to ever think that I was racing against guys who were cheating it would put an end to my racing.

    Allowing people to "cheat" isn't going to grow the sport.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    We have old age classes don't we?

    The whole idea behind masters racing is to compete against people who have the same disadvantage/advantages of being older. When some people start taking drugs to help them race like they did when they were younger they have a distinct advantage.

    I am fairly confident that guys I race against are as clean as a whistle. If I were to ever think that I was racing against guys who were cheating it would put an end to my racing.

    Allowing people to "cheat" isn't going to grow the sport.
    Sorry it ain't cheating if you need the drug....

    What about all those steroid puffers for exercise induced asthma..

    I lost a whack of blood a year ago and got EPO...so that is cheating....

    Sorry performance enhancing drugs when used properly should be entirely legal, especially for the older age groupers.

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    DHEA doesn't do anything anyway. If you are going to take hormones, you might as well take some that work. (Not that I do, or condone it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    DHEA doesn't do anything anyway. If you are going to take hormones, you might as well take some that work. (Not that I do, or condone it).
    Of course one should only take effective drugs for the issues that they have....

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    lgh
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    DHEA doesn't do anything anyway. If you are going to take hormones, you might as well take some that work. (Not that I do, or condone it).
    When you used it, did you also take DIM?

    Larry

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    lgh
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    We have old age classes don't we?

    The whole idea behind masters racing is to compete against people who have the same disadvantage/advantages of being older. When some people start taking drugs to help them race like they did when they were younger they have a distinct advantage.

    I am fairly confident that guys I race against are as clean as a whistle. If I were to ever think that I was racing against guys who were cheating it would put an end to my racing.

    Allowing people to "cheat" isn't going to grow the sport.
    I agree. Cheaters need to be i.d.'d and disciplined according to the rules. Otherwise, the whole institution of cycling is corrupt. If people feel strongly that the inclusion of something on a banned list is somehow wrong, they need to work to have it removed from the list, not cheat to get around it.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Sorry performance enhancing drugs when used properly should be entirely legal, especially for the older age groupers.
    Now I am with you. Particularly since in those cases the drugs probably don't even bring them to par. A TUE or DOU is a completely different thing.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Sorry performance enhancing drugs when used properly should be entirely legal, especially for the older age groupers.
    Legal to use, or legal in competitive sports?
    It is legal for example, to go to the doctor and get a prescription for testosterone. If your testosterone is below the normal range, you could say you need it. But, how can you allow that in competition? The normal range for testosterone is huge. 20 year olds have more than 50 year olds. Could you allow a person to compete who is at the very top of normal testosterone levels that was achieved through supplementation? Then everyone would be on it to achieve those same levels. It's a can of worms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Sorry it ain't cheating if you need the drug....

    What about all those steroid puffers for exercise induced asthma..

    I lost a whack of blood a year ago and got EPO...so that is cheating....

    Sorry performance enhancing drugs when used properly should be entirely legal, especially for the older age groupers.
    Define "need".

    Do you mean "need" it to continue living...if yes, then you should be able to race using it.

    If you mean "need" it to ride a bike...then, maybe you can race using it. But if you're anything other than off the back, you should stop using it.

    If you "need" it to be competitive (sounds like a "want" to me)...then you should not race using it.

    How someone who has used something forbidden by the rules can stand on a podium and so much as smile is beyond my comprehension. Even if a doctor gave you an excuse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    Now I am with you. Particularly since in those cases the drugs probably don't even bring them to par. A TUE or DOU is a completely different thing.
    Explain "par".

    The guy who is in the same situation as you who didn't cheat? Is he "par". Is the podium "par".

    Yes, sensitive topic.
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    lgh
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    Before the discussion gets too unwrapped and in an attempt to keep it on track, I will add that I do have experience with the DIM/DHEA combo. My wife and I both take a combo of the two for reasons completely unrelated to cycling. In a relatively short time I have noticed two things consistent with claims made for the combo. First, I wake up in the morning totally revved up and ready to go. There's no slowly getting out of bed, I spring out of bed. Second, fat metabolism has clearly been effected. I screwed up my shoulder and that has severely limited what I can do off the bike. Between that and decreasing daylight, my volume of exercise is down but, if anything, fat loss is increased. Until I significantly rev up my exercise volume, I cannot at this point notice improved recovery but I am curious about it.

    I am cautious about any HM through hormone ingestion but this combo seems to have been investigated by legitimate people and its use is directed at offsetting hormonal imbalances related to age and metabolism. It is not, to my mind, specifically directed at enhanced athletic performance but obviously might have implications for that.

    Anyone else have expereince with this combo?

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgh View Post
    I am cautious about any HM through hormone ingestion but this combo seems to have been investigated by legitimate people

    Really? Where? I would like to read some actual study data about this, rather than just the "logic" of nutritional supplement hucksters.

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