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Thread: Dim/dhea

  1. #1
    lgh
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    Dim/dhea

    This might be a sensitive topic since, I believe, DHEA is banned by some governing bodies. Tested athletes probably shouldn't use at least the DHEA. Nevertheless, the combo is recommended by some including Andy Pruitt who nobody would call a cheater. It fits in the category of hormonal manipulation (HM). Some regard HM THE key to athletic development. That explains why it's at the center of most doping scandals.

    Larry
    Last edited by lgh; 10-11-2011 at 08:37 AM.

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    It definitely falls into the realm of pharma enhanced performance (WADA identified substance) and as such is viewed in our house as cheating regardless of effect.

    a physician might take a different view as they can take the stance that they are treating symptoms and a patient, not an athlete and their sporting performance. however if the physician knowingly prescribes the use of a banned substance i think they are more guilty than the athlete taking the banned substance. i feel this is the root of the "problem" in sport, doctors or other management/authority figures pushing or suggesting that the athletes seek out the cheating path. deplorable...

    ...or if you want to take the other route it should be legal for athletes at the Pro/Elite level to do whatever they want to enhance their performance. certainly it is ignored in other sports (football, soccer, etc) yet cycling gets all twisted up about it. i think it is exciting to see the super-human performances that doping brings out of the athletes, watching Lance dance on the pedals while Jan and Vino chased was one of the things that drew my wife and I into cycling. that is what we want right? a spectacle?

    maybe because in my mind there is a separation between the two disciplines (road and mountain) and since i don't race road it makes it okay if "they" are dopers... but really i think that separation is a figment of my imagination. we are all connected as cyclists.

    either way... i wouldn't take anything on the banned substance list and neither will my wife. it just doesn't seem right, but then again we also don't put food on the table racing bikes!
    Try to be good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whybotherme View Post
    It definitely falls into the realm of pharma enhanced performance (WADA identified substance) and as such is viewed in our house as cheating regardless of effect.

    a physician might take a different view as they can take the stance that they are treating symptoms and a patient, not an athlete and their sporting performance. however if the physician knowingly prescribes the use of a banned substance i think they are more guilty than the athlete taking the banned substance. i feel this is the root of the "problem" in sport, doctors or other management/authority figures pushing or suggesting that the athletes seek out the cheating path. deplorable...

    ...or if you want to take the other route it should be legal for athletes at the Pro/Elite level to do whatever they want to enhance their performance. certainly it is ignored in other sports (football, soccer, etc) yet cycling gets all twisted up about it. i think it is exciting to see the super-human performances that doping brings out of the athletes, watching Lance dance on the pedals while Jan and Vino chased was one of the things that drew my wife and I into cycling. that is what we want right? a spectacle?

    maybe because in my mind there is a separation between the two disciplines (road and mountain) and since i don't race road it makes it okay if "they" are dopers... but really i think that separation is a figment of my imagination. we are all connected as cyclists.

    either way... i wouldn't take anything on the banned substance list and neither will my wife. it just doesn't seem right, but then again we also don't put food on the table racing bikes!
    wait till you get old....

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    wait till you get old....
    getting "old" means i justify having to use pharma to enhance myself? or getting "old" gives me some higher sense of morality and the importance of honesty and integrity?

    for the record i am not arguing either way on the pharma issue for anyone other than me and my wife. others can do as they please.

    i am far from "old" but as a Master's racer i don't doubt i race with people that are pharma enhanced. i don't really care what they do. racing is just something to give me a competitive outlet and keep me motivated to not gain back all the weight i lost in the last 6 years. i expect to slow down in coming years, just like i expect to deal with a lot of pain from the abuse i have dished out to my body. it isn't easy to get "old" but i have some really inspirational people as role models! Nancy "Denmo" Harris, Dean Swank, and several others that exemplify the idea that if you only get what you fight for and the idea of getting "old" is separate from "aging".
    Try to be good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whybotherme View Post
    getting "old" means i justify having to use pharma to enhance myself? or getting "old" gives me some higher sense of morality and the importance of honesty and integrity?

    for the record i am not arguing either way on the pharma issue for anyone other than me and my wife. others can do as they please.

    i am far from "old" but as a Master's racer i don't doubt i race with people that are pharma enhanced. i don't really care what they do. racing is just something to give me a competitive outlet and keep me motivated to not gain back all the weight i lost in the last 6 years. i expect to slow down in coming years, just like i expect to deal with a lot of pain from the abuse i have dished out to my body. it isn't easy to get "old" but i have some really inspirational people as role models! Nancy "Denmo" Harris, Dean Swank, and several others that exemplify the idea that if you only get what you fight for and the idea of getting "old" is separate from "aging".
    Clearly not old yet....and BTW everyone either gets old then dies or just dies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    wait till you get old....
    Does ones moral compass change with the coming of age?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Does ones moral compass change with the coming of age?
    Well yes and no....

    As pain troubles increases people will look for solutions that they would have avoided previously...

    Is that a change in the moral compass maybe for some, or is it simply balancing needs and wants....probably closer to the second.

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    There's a similar thread here:

    Dhea ??

    Just to clarify: If you look at page 3 of the WADA list of prohibited compounds DHEA is specifically listed as not being allowed.

    http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Wo...st_2011_EN.pdf

    There are many cases where athletes have failed drugs tests for DHEA and been banned. Here are a couple of recent US examples:

    Bicycle .net :: Tom Zirbel Tests Positive For DHEA

    Williams Handed Two-year Ban By USADA | Cyclingnews.com

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    lgh
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    Although DHEA is a steroid, DIM is a naturally occurring, plant-derived nutrient. They both act on similar hormone metabolic pathways. DHEA is not a regulated substance for the general public and can be bought dirt cheap and without a prescription. For the average person, DHEA is probably no more dangerous than other non-regulated substances. i.e. Don't take half the bottle of DHEA just like you wouldn't drink a whole bottle of whiskey or swallow 20 benadryl. The fact that it is banned by WADA does not mean it is "bad" for others. Non-tested athletes routinely take various meds, OTC and prescription, that are banned by governing bodies. I was therefore hoping to warn tested athletes about their use but at the same time ask others who might have tried the combo (for whatever reason) what they thought.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Well yes and no....

    As pain troubles increases people will look for solutions that they would have avoided previously...

    Is that a change in the moral compass maybe for some, or is it simply balancing needs and wants....probably closer to the second.
    It is one thing to take pharma aids to allow you to do the things you enjoy. It is another thing to take stuff to allow you to compete.

    If you are taking something like DHEA then you have no business ever showing up on a start line.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    If you are taking something like DHEA then you have no business ever showing up on a start line.
    +1

    When I sign up for my race license each year I accept an agreement to abide by the rules of the UCI which includes observing the banned substances list. It's irrelevant whether I'm actually tested.

    If I need or want to be using something on the banned substances list - unless it were by the books with a TUE - I would skip the racing and just enjoy casual riding instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    It is one thing to take pharma aids to allow you to do the things you enjoy. It is another thing to take stuff to allow you to compete.

    If you are taking something like DHEA then you have no business ever showing up on a start line.
    If you are competing according to the rules of your governing body and that body says you cannot take a certain substance, you are correct. You would be cheating if you took it just like you would be cheating if you violated equipment rules.

    However, to be clear, every athlete is already taking "unnatural" substances for the purpose of HM and improved athletic performance. Those substances just aren't on a list. If tomorrow DHEA was not on a list, its use would escalate as athletes experimented with it just like they experiment with a myriad of substances. The users would not be called cheaters and they certainly would be lining up on the starting line. The fact that "It's a Hormone!", per se, doesn't mean much to me. Whether people realize it or not, they are constantly trying to manipulate hormones in ways that are entirely unnatural - mega exercise, recovery drinks, supplements, you name it. That's exactly why they do those things.

    So I don't get kicked off the forum, I should make it clear that I favor banning some substances and procedures from fair competitions and believe athletes should be held accountable for violating the rules. However, lists of those substances and procedures should not be viewed as summaries of studied scientific opinion. They are not.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    It is one thing to take pharma aids to allow you to do the things you enjoy. It is another thing to take stuff to allow you to compete.

    If you are taking something like DHEA then you have no business ever showing up on a start line.
    Ha you stick with that....so any old age classer who uses drugs to help him should be banned from races....

    Yeah that is gonna grow the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Ha you stick with that....so any old age classer who uses drugs to help him should be banned from races....

    Yeah that is gonna grow the sport.
    We have old age classes don't we?

    The whole idea behind masters racing is to compete against people who have the same disadvantage/advantages of being older. When some people start taking drugs to help them race like they did when they were younger they have a distinct advantage.

    I am fairly confident that guys I race against are as clean as a whistle. If I were to ever think that I was racing against guys who were cheating it would put an end to my racing.

    Allowing people to "cheat" isn't going to grow the sport.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    We have old age classes don't we?

    The whole idea behind masters racing is to compete against people who have the same disadvantage/advantages of being older. When some people start taking drugs to help them race like they did when they were younger they have a distinct advantage.

    I am fairly confident that guys I race against are as clean as a whistle. If I were to ever think that I was racing against guys who were cheating it would put an end to my racing.

    Allowing people to "cheat" isn't going to grow the sport.
    Sorry it ain't cheating if you need the drug....

    What about all those steroid puffers for exercise induced asthma..

    I lost a whack of blood a year ago and got EPO...so that is cheating....

    Sorry performance enhancing drugs when used properly should be entirely legal, especially for the older age groupers.

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    DHEA doesn't do anything anyway. If you are going to take hormones, you might as well take some that work. (Not that I do, or condone it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    DHEA doesn't do anything anyway. If you are going to take hormones, you might as well take some that work. (Not that I do, or condone it).
    Of course one should only take effective drugs for the issues that they have....

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    lgh
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    DHEA doesn't do anything anyway. If you are going to take hormones, you might as well take some that work. (Not that I do, or condone it).
    When you used it, did you also take DIM?

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    We have old age classes don't we?

    The whole idea behind masters racing is to compete against people who have the same disadvantage/advantages of being older. When some people start taking drugs to help them race like they did when they were younger they have a distinct advantage.

    I am fairly confident that guys I race against are as clean as a whistle. If I were to ever think that I was racing against guys who were cheating it would put an end to my racing.

    Allowing people to "cheat" isn't going to grow the sport.
    I agree. Cheaters need to be i.d.'d and disciplined according to the rules. Otherwise, the whole institution of cycling is corrupt. If people feel strongly that the inclusion of something on a banned list is somehow wrong, they need to work to have it removed from the list, not cheat to get around it.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Sorry performance enhancing drugs when used properly should be entirely legal, especially for the older age groupers.
    Now I am with you. Particularly since in those cases the drugs probably don't even bring them to par. A TUE or DOU is a completely different thing.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Sorry performance enhancing drugs when used properly should be entirely legal, especially for the older age groupers.
    Legal to use, or legal in competitive sports?
    It is legal for example, to go to the doctor and get a prescription for testosterone. If your testosterone is below the normal range, you could say you need it. But, how can you allow that in competition? The normal range for testosterone is huge. 20 year olds have more than 50 year olds. Could you allow a person to compete who is at the very top of normal testosterone levels that was achieved through supplementation? Then everyone would be on it to achieve those same levels. It's a can of worms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Sorry it ain't cheating if you need the drug....

    What about all those steroid puffers for exercise induced asthma..

    I lost a whack of blood a year ago and got EPO...so that is cheating....

    Sorry performance enhancing drugs when used properly should be entirely legal, especially for the older age groupers.
    Define "need".

    Do you mean "need" it to continue living...if yes, then you should be able to race using it.

    If you mean "need" it to ride a bike...then, maybe you can race using it. But if you're anything other than off the back, you should stop using it.

    If you "need" it to be competitive (sounds like a "want" to me)...then you should not race using it.

    How someone who has used something forbidden by the rules can stand on a podium and so much as smile is beyond my comprehension. Even if a doctor gave you an excuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    Now I am with you. Particularly since in those cases the drugs probably don't even bring them to par. A TUE or DOU is a completely different thing.
    Explain "par".

    The guy who is in the same situation as you who didn't cheat? Is he "par". Is the podium "par".

    Yes, sensitive topic.

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    lgh
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    Before the discussion gets too unwrapped and in an attempt to keep it on track, I will add that I do have experience with the DIM/DHEA combo. My wife and I both take a combo of the two for reasons completely unrelated to cycling. In a relatively short time I have noticed two things consistent with claims made for the combo. First, I wake up in the morning totally revved up and ready to go. There's no slowly getting out of bed, I spring out of bed. Second, fat metabolism has clearly been effected. I screwed up my shoulder and that has severely limited what I can do off the bike. Between that and decreasing daylight, my volume of exercise is down but, if anything, fat loss is increased. Until I significantly rev up my exercise volume, I cannot at this point notice improved recovery but I am curious about it.

    I am cautious about any HM through hormone ingestion but this combo seems to have been investigated by legitimate people and its use is directed at offsetting hormonal imbalances related to age and metabolism. It is not, to my mind, specifically directed at enhanced athletic performance but obviously might have implications for that.

    Anyone else have expereince with this combo?

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgh View Post
    I am cautious about any HM through hormone ingestion but this combo seems to have been investigated by legitimate people

    Really? Where? I would like to read some actual study data about this, rather than just the "logic" of nutritional supplement hucksters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    Really? Where? I would like to read some actual study data about this, rather than just the "logic" of nutritional supplement hucksters.
    Steve - I'm not sure what your problem is. You have no knowledge or apparent experience with DHEA/DIM which is what I was asking about. It's a pretty simple question. If you can't contribute, don't post. Now it appears you can't do a simple lit search without being led around.

    You might try the DIM website and references therein. Andy Pruitt's book is also good but, IIRC, he pretty much repeats the stuff from DIM and may not have more references. Google Andy Pruitt and you should be able to find his book. He's pretty well known and respected in cycling circles. For endocrinology background you might want to take a look at "Natural Hormonal Enhancement". It's OK but tough to read, even for the initiated. Endocrinology is complicated. Good luck.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgh View Post
    If you can't contribute, don't post.
    REALLY?!
    Maybe you can apply for moderator status. Then you could just ban me for asking a question.

    Now it appears you can't do a simple lit search without being led around.
    I'm pretty good at research, and I have a biomedical engineering degree. You can stop talking down to me now.

    I asked specifically about the combination of DIM and DHEA. I know how to use google. I find a lot of questionable claims, but zero hits on pub med related to this topic and the combination.

    Data on DHEA alone is not conclusive from what I can tell. Does DIM help it work better? You can find a lot of BS on the internet of why it might, but asked for DATA, showing that it does.
    Perhaps you are too easily persuaded.


    You might try the DIM website and references therein. Andy Pruitt's book is also good but, IIRC, he pretty much repeats the stuff from DIM and may not have more references. Google Andy Pruitt and you should be able to find his book. He's pretty well known and respected in cycling circles. For endocrinology background you might want to take a look at "Natural Hormonal Enhancement". It's OK but tough to read, even for the initiated. Endocrinology is complicated. Good luck.

    Larry
    Thanks for leading me around Larry! You mean dimfaq.com? Anything on the combination with DHEA on there?
    Now I have to read a book? Can you cut to the chase? Does Andy 's book have scientific research results and data on the combination?

    You said "the combo has been investigated by legitimate people." I asked where. your turn.
    Good luck to you too!

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    In general, I have found it easier to find the scientific basis for supplements than to find proof they work. That doesn't mean they don't work but that's why I ask if anyone has found them useful and not if anyone has found proof they are useful. The DIM and DHEA work on the same aspects of estrogen metabolism. I believe those are in the references I mentioned and that is the basis for their effects. Estrogen metabolism has been the subject of a lot of studies because of women's health issues surrounding hormonal replacement therapy (HRT). The metabolic pathways, sites of interaction, and hormonal effects you should be able to find, if interested.

    My main concern with HM is safety, not proven efficacy. Everything in our bodies is under complex hormonal regulation and I don't recall any hormone that has only one function. Bump up hormone A so that Y happens and you also get X and Z happening.

    Given Pruitt's endorsement and the current interest in optimizing hormonal balance, I'm a little surprised no one has tried the combo. I'm guessin' most on this board are not tested athletes.

    Larry

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    Another U.S. masters rider pinned for doping

    keep going guys. take that stuff to make you faster... eventually you might have to do what this guy did and send a letter out to everyone in the cycling world saying "sorry dude, i juice..."

    man up. train hard, eat right, and try to sleep enough. then go throw down. if you aren't 1st that is fine, you gave it your all and it is likely that you are better off for the journey that got you wherever you wind up! hell, i didn't win nationals but i had the best damn vacation of my entire life!
    Try to be good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgh View Post
    Given Pruitt's endorsement and the current interest in optimizing hormonal balance, I'm a little surprised no one has tried the combo. I'm guessin' most on this board are not tested athletes.
    I'm sure you're right. Most athletes aren't tested simply because the organizations charged with testing them don't want to pony up for full spectrum blood and urinalyses. That's what it would take to catch everyone for substances they can actually test for.

    Also, certain procedures and substances that could be considered gene doping are so difficult to even devise a test for that right now people basically get a free pass to use more elite medicine. In fact, WADA is so "comprehensive" that there are likely things they'll never be able to detect no matter how much they play catch up. It amounts to taking a political stance for the sake staying on message at the expense of everybody, because every time they ban something undetectable they tacitly encourage a climate of ignorance; both inside and outside the organization. It's tantamount to don't ask, don't tell.

    And I'm sure the precursor combo Pruitt's suggesting at a minimum does little harm. That said, if there were untested athletes on this board who had nothing to worry about, why wouldn't they just skip the foreplay and load hgh/tt/epo stacks instead of this? Why would anyone risk sanctions or spend money for something less effective that carries the same penalty?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lassiar View Post
    And I'm sure the precursor combo Pruitt's suggesting at a minimum does little harm. That said, if there were untested athletes on this board who had nothing to worry about, why wouldn't they just skip the foreplay and load hgh/tt/epo stacks instead of this? Why would anyone risk sanctions or spend money for something less effective that carries the same penalty?
    DHEA/DIM is not a performance enhancing combo. To quote Andy Pruitt, "(many athletes) are opposed ethically to gaining an advantage over other athletes by what they view as artificial means. However, neither DIM nor DHEA should be viewed as a performance-enhancing substance." The notion that anyone using it is a "stupid cheater" as opposed to a "smart cheater" is entirlely wrong. Current interest in DHEA centers around HRT, hormonal balance, general health, and cancer prevention. It has nothing to do with athletics but about women's health. It enters into men's health because of the moderating effects of DIM on DHEA metabolism.

    My original post was directed at those who might be aware of these issues for general health purposes, use DHEA/DIM, and do not wake up every morning reading from the WADA banned list to determine what is good or bad, right or wrong, smart or dumb that day. I tried to dismiss the concerns of tested athletes who, unfortunately, must do that and generally are not free to voice their own opinions to the contrary, if they have one. My question was answered pretty clearly - nobody knew what I was talking about. That's OK. We all know stuff others don't.

    Women in their forties (or close enough) who read this post might be interested in the very good book by John R. Lee entitiled "What your Doctor May Not Tell You About Premenopause." The book is not about the bike.

    Larry

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    DHEA positive test has brought a few

    Quote Originally Posted by lgh View Post
    DHEA/DIM is not a performance enhancing combo. To quote Andy Pruitt, "(many athletes) are opposed ethically to gaining an advantage over other athletes by what they view as artificial means. However, neither DIM nor DHEA should be viewed as a performance-enhancing substance." The notion that anyone using it is a "stupid cheater" as opposed to a "smart cheater" is entirlely wrong. Current interest in DHEA centers around HRT, hormonal balance, general health, and cancer prevention. It has nothing to do with athletics but about women's health. It enters into men's health because of the moderating effects of DIM on DHEA metabolism.

    My original post was directed at those who might be aware of these issues for general health purposes, use DHEA/DIM, and do not wake up every morning reading from the WADA banned list to determine what is good or bad, right or wrong, smart or dumb that day. I tried to dismiss the concerns of tested athletes who, unfortunately, must do that and generally are not free to voice their own opinions to the contrary, if they have one. My question was answered pretty clearly - nobody knew what I was talking about. That's OK. We all know stuff others don't.

    Women in their forties (or close enough) who read this post might be interested in the very good book by John R. Lee entitiled "What your Doctor May Not Tell You About Premenopause." The book is not about the bike.

    Larry
    Roadie Pros Zirbel and Hamilton and Masters racer Kenny Williams all positive for DHEA. It must do something to enhance performance, or why else would they risk it?

    I know, I know...these guys were supposedly all taking DHEA for something other than performance enhancement, but i have a hard time buying that

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevemtu View Post
    Roadie Pros Zirbel and Hamilton and Masters racer Kenny Williams all positive for DHEA. It must do something to enhance performance, or why else would they risk it?
    You would have to ask them why they took it. Maybe someone recommended it. Maybe everyone is doing it. Maybe they think anything on the WADA list must be performance-enhancing and desirable, apparently a commonly held belief. Who cares? The only important thing about that story is that it's banned, they took it, they got caught, and they (hopefully) will get punished.

    Just like the WADA list, dumb jock stories don't really shed any light on serious issues, at least not for me. Those guys lie and cheat. Not a good source for knowledge, at least not for me. Many of them are also uneducated. One more time, "most of us do not wake up every morning reading from the WADA banned list to determine what is good or bad, right or wrong, smart or dumb that day."

    Larry

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    I have to take Lipitor regularly and I try to take as low a dose as possible due to the side effects, one of which is muscle soreness. This includes becoming a vegetarian.

    I don't like hot, humid summers any more than anyone else but they tend to be the best thing for racing with asthma. Now that it's starting to get cooler in the Deep South I'm having to take an albuterol inhaler again.

    I've read about the performance-enhancing effects of albuterol and I think it's pretty sick to consider that others would use it with no medical need. If I don't use an inhaler in cold weather, I go from Cat 1 to Cat 3-level, not to mention the fact I might damage my lungs or even die.

    Just one amateur's experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Sorry it ain't cheating if you need the drug....

    What about all those steroid puffers for exercise induced asthma..

    I lost a whack of blood a year ago and got EPO...so that is cheating....

    Sorry performance enhancing drugs when used properly should be entirely legal, especially for the older age groupers.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgh View Post
    DHEA/DIM is not a performance enhancing combo.
    An effort to raise testosterone and suppress estrogen has nothing to do with performance enhancement?

    To quote Andy Pruitt, "(many athletes) are opposed ethically to gaining an advantage over other athletes by what they view as artificial means. However, neither DIM nor DHEA should be viewed as a performance-enhancing substance."
    Well, if Andy said it....


    The notion that anyone using it is a "stupid cheater" as opposed to a "smart cheater" is entirlely wrong. Current interest in DHEA centers around HRT, hormonal balance, general health, and cancer prevention. It has nothing to do with athletics but about women's health. It enters into men's health because of the moderating effects of DIM on DHEA metabolism.
    Hormone replacement? Hormone balance? Not performance enhancing?
    DHEA -> Testosterone
    Testosterone -> Performance

    There are 2 choices:
    1. DHEA/DIM increases testosterone, in which case it is performance enhancing, or
    2. DHEA/DIM does not increase testosterone, in which case you are right; it is not about performance enhancement.

    If you are claiming case 2, then why take it?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TunicaTrails View Post
    I have to take Lipitor regularly and I try to take as low a dose as possible due to the side effects, one of which is muscle soreness. This includes becoming a vegetarian.
    Lipitor, and statins in general, are the devil. You should look for another doc who can get your cholesterol under control w/out statins.

    If I ever have a doc recommend statins to me, I may just have to pimp slap him.

    Lipitor and other Statin Drugs, Side Effects, Neuromuscular Degeneration, and Recovery

    Do YOU Take Any of These 11 Dangerous Cholesterol Drugs?

    New Study Shows Using Statins Actually Harms Heart Function

    Do YOU Take Any of These 11 Dangerous Cholesterol Drugs?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudge View Post
    Lipitor, and statins in general, are the devil. You should look for another doc who can get your cholesterol under control w/out statins.

    If I ever have a doc recommend statins to me, I may just have to pimp slap him.

    Lipitor and other Statin Drugs, Side Effects, Neuromuscular Degeneration, and Recovery

    Do YOU Take Any of These 11 Dangerous Cholesterol Drugs?

    New Study Shows Using Statins Actually Harms Heart Function

    Do YOU Take Any of These 11 Dangerous Cholesterol Drugs?
    For the vast majority of statin users, there are no negative side effects. That includes for me.
    The evidence is undeniable that people who need them, and take them live longer. Period.

    Your links are to somewhat crappy articles.

    Of course you should only take statins if you need them. I need them. In fact, I would most likely be dead if I did not take them.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    For the vast majority of statin users, there are no negative side effects. That includes for me.
    The evidence is undeniable that people who need them, and take them live longer. Period.

    Your links are to somewhat crappy articles.

    Of course you should only take statins if you need them. I need them. In fact, I would most likely be dead if I did not take them.
    Have you tried alternative therapies for whatever problem you believe you'd be dead from w/out statins? Just curious, but why would you assume you'd be dead if not for statins?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudge View Post
    Have you tried alternative therapies for whatever problem you believe you'd be dead from w/out statins? Just curious, but why would you assume you'd be dead if not for statins?
    I had an uncle who died of a heart attack at 35 and one that died at 42. I'm 51. Hereditary lipid problem. Even with the highest dose of the most potent statin, I can barely maintain normal lipid levels.
    I'm all for alternatives, but for many people its just not enough, and the risk of living with abnormal lipid levels is far greater than the risk of taking a statin.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I had an uncle who died of a heart attack at 35 and one that died at 42. I'm 51. Hereditary lipid problem. Even with the highest dose of the most potent statin, I can barely maintain normal lipid levels.
    I'm all for alternatives, but for many people its just not enough, and the risk of living with abnormal lipid levels is far greater than the risk of taking a statin.
    I'm sorry to hear about your lipid issues, didn't mean to come off as 'busting on you'. My point earlier was only to point out that traditional medicine can often be misguided and sometimes outright wrong. Lots of doctors are more than happy to prescribe whatever a drug sales rep will give them kickbacks on their sales. Up until recently I worked in a hospital setting and was flabbergasted at some of the things I heard docs (and pharmacists) say.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudge View Post
    I'm sorry to hear about your lipid issues, didn't mean to come off as 'busting on you'. My point earlier was only to point out that traditional medicine can often be misguided and sometimes outright wrong. Lots of doctors are more than happy to prescribe whatever a drug sales rep will give them kickbacks on their sales. Up until recently I worked in a hospital setting and was flabbergasted at some of the things I heard docs (and pharmacists) say.
    That can't be legal any more I was well aware of docs deciding to use certain drugs based on how much the drug rep wined and dined them a while back.

    I was along for the ride back in the late 90s firsthand, but was under the impression that even that became illegal practice.

  43. #43
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    The DHEA and DIM we're discussing are just the off the shelf cheap supplements right?

    Would they really help that much and only cost $11 at the local natural food store?

    I use amino acid supplements AAKG and BETA ALANINE which has a similar effect as does sports legs-is this cheating?
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    to muddy the waters even further

    Quote Originally Posted by 2fst4u View Post
    The DHEA and DIM we're discussing are just the off the shelf cheap supplements right?

    Would they really help that much and only cost $11 at the local natural food store?

    I use amino acid supplements AAKG and BETA ALANINE which has a similar effect as does sports legs-is this cheating?
    U.S. swimmers take diet supplements that give EPO-like benefits | Active.com

    I guess at the highest level, it is not cheating unless it is on the 'banned' list. Maybe this is the same philosophy the rest of us should use...

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    I think statins are pretty bad for being an athlete also, but I recognize that I have to take them, for the time being at least. I'm as lean as I've ever been but still have high cholesterol without them. I'm hoping that 10mg with a vegetarian diet will get it down to a low level. If that's successful then I'll jump for joy and try 0mg. Until then I guess I'll keep doping up with my asthma inhaler and call it even

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevemtu View Post
    I guess at the highest level, it is not cheating unless it is on the 'banned' list. Maybe this is the same philosophy the rest of us should use...
    At the highest level, it's not cheating until you get caught and exhaust all your appeals. Period.

    There is orthomolecular medicine, which is what you're referring to, but also gene doping, with things like repoxygen, which are impossible to test for. Average joes might be able to do ortho, but genetic medicine is too expensive for most people. The reason they won't ban ortho is because essentially it's concentrated food derivatives and they know that like caffeine, it'd be too controversial to test people for things they'd encounter in everyday products they consume. (A la Contador and the tainted meat scandal.)

    There is no future for WADA and other organizations doing this. Unless there's a global, mandatory DNA database maintained from birth for all up-and-coming international talent in every athletic disclipine, anti-doping will continue to be a farce maintained to control public perception.
    Last edited by lassiar; 10-27-2011 at 09:06 AM.

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    Do you guys think some local expert/pro riders who don't do nationals (could qualify if they wanted) but just stick to the local races, do serious doping to enhance? The reason I ask is I'm heading to expert class next year and have always wondered. Most of the racers I know are sport and I really am not in the inner circle with the fast guys. In our series experts and pros race together and there are a couple freaky fast guys that make me wonder??
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    Maybe for memory and mood more than muscle.


    Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2006 Nov;188(4):541-51. Epub 2005 Oct 18.
    Effects of DHEA administration on episodic memory, cortisol and mood in healthy young men: a double-blind, placebo-controlled study.

    Alhaj HA, Massey AE, McAllister-Williams RH.
    Psychobiology Research Group, School of Neurology, Neurobiology and Psychiatry, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

    RATIONALE: Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) has been reported to enhance cognition in rodents, although there are inconsistent findings in humans. OBJECTIVES: The aim of this study was to investigate the effects of DHEA administration in healthy young men on episodic memory and its neural correlates utilising an event-related potential (ERP) technique. METHODS: Twenty-four healthy young men were treated with a 7-day course of oral DHEA (150 mg b.d.) or placebo in a double blind, random, crossover and balanced order design. Subjective mood and memory were measured using visual analogue scales (VASs). Cortisol concentrations were measured in saliva samples. ERPs were recorded during retrieval in an episodic memory test. Low-resolution brain electromagnetic tomography (LORETA) was used to identify brain regions involved in the cognitive task. RESULTS: DHEA administration led to a reduction in evening cortisol concentrations and improved VAS mood and memory. Recollection accuracy in the episodic memory test was significantly improved following DHEA administration. LORETA revealed significant hippocampal activation associated with successful episodic memory retrieval following placebo. DHEA modified ERPs associated with retrieval and led to a trend towards an early differential activation of the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC). CONCLUSIONS: DHEA treatment improved memory recollection and mood and decreased trough cortisol levels. The effect of DHEA appears to be via neuronal recruitment of the steroid sensitive ACC that may be involved in pre-hippocampal memory processing. These findings are distinctive, being the first to show such beneficial effects of DHEA on memory in healthy young men.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2fst4u View Post
    Do you guys think some local expert/pro riders who don't do nationals (could qualify if they wanted) but just stick to the local races, do serious doping to enhance? The reason I ask is I'm heading to expert class next year and have always wondered. Most of the racers I know are sport and I really am not in the inner circle with the fast guys. In our series experts and pros race together and there are a couple freaky fast guys that make me wonder??
    Absolutely they do. Just look at the amount of steroid use in high school athletics...

    People spend $1,000's on equipment upgrades to give themselves minuscule advantages and some will take WADA/UCI banned substances as well.
    Get it unlocked.

  50. #50
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    None of the pro or expert racers that I know dope, that I know of. I don't believe that they would either. You're going to see some really fast guys in Pro/Cat1 but the reason may be a little more disheartening: they've ridden to gain skills and trained consistently for many years. When you look at their records you'll see a progression.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2fst4u View Post
    Do you guys think some local expert/pro riders who don't do nationals (could qualify if they wanted) but just stick to the local races, do serious doping to enhance? The reason I ask is I'm heading to expert class next year and have always wondered. Most of the racers I know are sport and I really am not in the inner circle with the fast guys. In our series experts and pros race together and there are a couple freaky fast guys that make me wonder??
    '

    No they don't dope.

    Mountain bike racing as a whole is very clean, there are those who have doped and I am sure there those who still dope, however you can win at any level clean. People who tell you different don't know what they are talking about.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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