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  1. #1
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    Benefit of Sram XX???

    I'm posting this year because I believe this drivetrain is geared towards racers and if I post in drivetrain forum, I may get non-racing feedback.

    My question is, what is the benefit of XX? Why not just run 2x9? Isn't a 10 speed chain weaker since it's thinner? If you look at the cost of the XX drivetrain, replacement parts are ungodly expense (cassettee, chainrings) compared to 9-speed.

    The 2010 Epic states a weight of 21.7 pounds I believe. I have the 09 S-works under that weight with XTR/XO drivetrain.

    Am I missing some benefit of XX that would justify the cost of it?

    Thanks for feedback.



  2. #2
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    Tighter gear ratios...
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  3. #3
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    Thanks for starting this thread. I'm in the market for a new race bike for 2010 and was leaning towards the XX, just because of weight and that it one package. I like to keep things simple! But, I have not made up my mind. Where did you find the weight for the 2010 Epic? I'm looking at that bike as well as the Blur xc carbon
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  4. #4
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    If you ran 1x9 with that monster HG-61 12-36 cassette that Shimano introduced for 29ers you'd have the same sort of low range, but that cassette weighs something like 435gms.
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  5. #5
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    benefits:

    weight
    ratios
    shifting
    coolness (i almost left this one off )

    detractors:

    cost

    i have run 10 speed chains on 9 speed drivetrains for several races this year and had no issues. i think chain strength is a non issue providing you have your bike shifting well and are relatively good on maintenance/upkeep (replace stuff when needed too)

    i would love to run XX but would not want that crank (boat anchor). the best setup in the world IMO is that Specialized crank with the XX spider/rings but i can't afford a new bike so I will stick with what i got (for 2010).

    bottom line, i will admit XX is better but i don't think it would move me up a spot in the results.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PissedOffCil
    Tighter gear ratios...
    with an additional 36 tooth at the back for the XX, it's no tighter than a 9 speed 11-32 XT.

  7. #7
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelobryant
    with an additional 36 tooth at the back for the XX, it's no tighter than a 9 speed 11-32 XT.
    Unless you choose the XX 11-32.

  8. #8
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    It costs so much money you won't be able to afford to eat for a while, thus you'll finally loose those last 3 lbs to get down to World Cup weight and crush the souls of your adversaries!

    It's a nice groupset, but the cost is ridiculous IMO. The main advantage I can see is that with the big ring in the middle position you can have full range on the cassette while in the big ring. Does that make you faster? No. But to me it would be a psychological advantage as when I'm in the big ring I FEEL fast.

  9. #9
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    IMHO, it's mostly hype. I've worked with the XX a fair amount on the race circuit this year and guess what? It's just another MTB drivetrain that happens to have an additional cog. If you really care about the "bling factor", then I guess you might be a candidate, but from a mechanic's perspective, it ain't no big thing. In my experience, XTR or XO both shift much more cleanly, and more consistently, than XX. Also, if you happened to be at any of the pro races on the East Coast World Cup/National swing this year, you might have noticed that the racers having the most drivetrain problems in the mud were the riders on the XX (all the Fisher guys/gals, Mike n' Mary, and even Absolon, who almost never has mechanicals). Coincidence? I doubt it. In the industry's constant push for "new and improved", somehow they've confused "new" with "improved".

    I almost guarantee I'm going to get lambasted by the SRAM lovers (or the SRAM guys themselves) out there for this post. I'm not downing SRAM overall. They make some killer stuff. But the XX isn't all it's cracked up to be, despite what the magazines feel compelled to rave about because it's the latest and "greatest".
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  10. #10
    jms
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    Here's a few houghts

    Here's a few thoughts @ the XX:

    Benefits
    It has a better chainline and Q factor than the outboard bearing triples.
    Probably less chainsuck w/o inner ring.

    Detractors
    That 36th steel cog will bend easily on a mis-shift - 34's on 9speed are already notorious for that. A 10 speed cassette is going to have even thinner cogs
    Isn't the 36th cassette heavier? That's in precisely the wrong place - mounted to the rear wheel.

    I think the biggest benefit will be to Lehman Bros./Sram's bottom line
    Last edited by jms; 10-15-2009 at 03:41 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jms
    Here's a few thoughts @ the XX:

    Benefits
    It has a better chainline and Q factor than the outboard bearing triples.
    Probably less chainsuck w/o inner ring.

    Detractors
    That 36th steel cog will bend easily on a mis-shift - 34's on 9speed are already notorious for that. A 10 speed cassette is going to have even thinner cogs
    Isn't the 36th cassette heavier? That's in precisely the wrong place - mounted to the rear wheel.

    I think the biggest benefit will be to Sram's bottom line
    It's lighter than XTR.

  12. #12
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    The big thing with XX is it's the first main steam MTB drivetrain designed for two front chain rings. The current triple on a MTB is based around a type of riding we don't do that much of any more (fire roads) the big rings are too big and the granny gears are too small. The gearing on the XX should be more in-line with the trails we ride.

    There was some mechanical issues with XX at the easter world cups and US cups. Talking with people most of those mechanicals were related to pre-production parts (9 speed chain rings with 10 speed chains for example). Also at Bromont the conditions were hideous and there was a ton of mechanicals from everybody.

  13. #13
    LMN
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    Quote Originally Posted by jms
    Detractors
    That 36th steel cog will bend easily on a mis-shift - 34's on 9speed are already notorious for that. A 10 speed cassette is going to have even thinner cogs
    Isn't the 36th cassette heavier? That's in precisely the wrong place - mounted to the rear wheel.
    In theory the weight of the heavier cog should be more than compensated for by fewer chain rings. Rotating weight is rotating weight.

  14. #14
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    It costs so much money you won't be able to afford to eat for a while, thus you'll finally loose those last 3 lbs to get down to World Cup weight and crush the souls of your adversaries!
    LOL. It sure is expensive.

    I have the 2009 S-Works Epic and notice they put the XX on the 2010. Researching it I just can't find a real clear benefit, ESPECIALLY given the cost of the components.

    From my perspective, it's a pure bling factor. You can achieve the same, if not better, results manipulating a 9-speed drivetrain.



  15. #15
    AZ
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    I'm going to wait for the trickle down , in a couple of years it might be affordable . Can see some of the benefits , but cost isnt one of them.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN
    The big thing with XX is it's the first main steam MTB drivetrain designed for two front chain rings. The current triple on a MTB is based around a type of riding we don't do that much of any more (fire roads) the big rings are too big and the granny gears are too small. The gearing on the XX should be more in-line with the trails we ride.
    I fancy myself a fairly fit rider and I don't think the granny gears are too small. For XC racing only, sure a 22 is useless if you've got the climbing legs, but I find it's indispensable for endurance racing. I can't imagine doing a 45 minute+ climb in the rockies on my 29 front 32 rear low geared XC race hardtail.

    I do agree that 44 is too big, especially with an 11 in the back. I find a 42 front 12 rear is the highest gear I can ever use.

  17. #17
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    Sram adds another Gear for mtn bikers to skip to with their shifters.
    everyone I ride with skips gears more often then shifting 1 at a time.
    great for a companies bottom line though.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jms
    Detractors
    That 36th steel cog will bend easily on a mis-shift - 34's on 9speed are already notorious for that. A 10 speed cassette is going to have even thinner cogs
    Isn't the 36th cassette heavier? That's in precisely the wrong place - mounted to the rear wheel.
    The biggest cog is an AL-7075-T6 alloy cog that is separately replaceable. It is insanely light at 208gms for the 11-36 and 185gms for the 11-32. The XTR is 224gms in an 11-32 for $240. That all Ti Recon cassette is about the same weight as the XX and almost the same price.The Shimano HG61 12-36 cassette is almost a pound.
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  19. #19
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    The general rule of thumb is that it costs $1,000 to lose 1 pound off the bike. The XX components are insanely expensive for minimal weight savings. I dont really see any weight savings if you go to 2x9. It's almost as if SRAM thinks the XX technology is new, when in fact it not really new at all. It's just newly marketed to MTB bikes. There is no reason, other than bling factor, for this stuff to cost so freaking much.

    The more and more I research this component line, the more I learn that there is minimal if any benefit to 10 speed on a mountain bike. If you read other forums the majority of people buying it are doing so for the bling factor. Many are non racers, which makes even less sense.

    I understand the bling factor and guilty of it myself, but given the cost it's just insane. IMO. I change cassettee and chain twice a year as well as middle chain ring on crank. (14 MTB races and 1000s miles training). The maintenance cost of this component line is just insane. I'm a hardcore racer but still don't buy XTR cassette just because of how much they cost. I'd rather push the fork away at the dinner table then spend that money on a replaceable part.



  20. #20
    LMN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kris
    I fancy myself a fairly fit rider and I don't think the granny gears are too small. For XC racing only, sure a 22 is useless if you've got the climbing legs, but I find it's indispensable for endurance racing. I can't imagine doing a 45 minute+ climb in the rockies on my 29 front 32 rear low geared XC race hardtail.

    I do agree that 44 is too big, especially with an 11 in the back. I find a 42 front 12 rear is the highest gear I can ever use.
    A 22/34 is a very small gear. I will not lie to you, I use it from time to time (OK frequently ). But never in an XC race, you just don't find climbs that steep and that long. A 29 front and 32 however is actually a fairly large gear. A 26/36 sits nicely between the two.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppie58
    The general rule of thumb is that it costs $1,000 to lose 1 pound off the bike. The XX components are insanely expensive for minimal weight savings. I dont really see any weight savings if you go to 2x9. It's almost as if SRAM thinks the XX technology is new, when in fact it not really new at all. It's just newly marketed to MTB bikes. There is no reason, other than bling factor, for this stuff to cost so freaking much.

    The more and more I research this component line, the more I learn that there is minimal if any benefit to 10 speed on a mountain bike. If you read other forums the majority of people buying it are doing so for the bling factor. Many are non racers, which makes even less sense.

    I understand the bling factor and guilty of it myself, but given the cost it's just insane. IMO. I change cassettee and chain twice a year as well as middle chain ring on crank. (14 MTB races and 1000s miles training). The maintenance cost of this component line is just insane. I'm a hardcore racer but still don't buy XTR cassette just because of how much they cost. I'd rather push the fork away at the dinner table then spend that money on a replaceable part.
    People are crazy if they think buying a new component set will make them faster. Even if you were up-grading from SLX having the correct tire for the day will make a way bigger difference.

    But the question (in my mind at least) is if you are replacing your bike anyways and choosing between XTR and XX, what do you go for?

    I have been using XTR for the last two years and have been really impressed by chain-ring life. The chain-rings on my hard-trail have over 10,000km on them and still work great. It is a good thing they last because each chain ring is just about the same price as an XT crankset.

  22. #22
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    I think the greatest benefit of the SRAM XX is that it will make the current XTR cheaper.....(until shim tries to out bling it w/ more stupid upgrades like yumeya)
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  23. #23
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    Interesting

    I went through this mental gymnastics exercise when picking my bike earlier this year. I knew my Blur couldn't take XX, so I had to really spend some time deciding if XX really would matter. In the end, the reliability of my current XTR/XT drivetrains won out. I never have shifting issues other than the occasional bent der hanger, or dirty cables. In thousands of miles of riding in mud, dirt, sand, snow...never.

    It is true that the granny ring could go away on my bike 95% of the time, but that 5% is when I'm doing a 45 minute climb at 11,000 feet with a pack, after 12 hours in the saddle. Being stuck in middle ring with my current gearing wouldn't cut it, but the gearing of XX would. However, was it really a big deal to drop down into that granny ring? I never have chainsuck...only drop a chain once or twice a season...

    Weight savings are something I'm also starting to care less about. I spent years trying to keep my bike under 22lbs. The more time I spent with cycling calculators looking at the effects, and also watching some engineering tests by a friend, It also became pretty clear that beyond wheels and tires, everything else is peanuts at a certain point. (I do still run light wheels and tires, and always will...and rolling resistance is KING even beyond weight) Yes, 5 lbs is a big difference, but 100 grams over 16 hours in a non critical location will cost me seconds with an ungodly amount of climbing.

    I've been buying XT cassettes to save $200 a pop, and will likely be getting an XT middle ring this winter to save another chunk of cash. As slow as those parts rotate, and as close as they are to the axis or rotation, it won't matter a bit.
    Free will is an illusion, people will always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by used2Bhard
    I went through this mental gymnastics exercise when picking my bike earlier this year. I knew my Blur couldn't take XX, so I had to really spend some time deciding if XX really would matter. In the end, the reliability of my current XTR/XT drivetrains won out. I never have shifting issues other than the occasional bent der hanger, or dirty cables. In thousands of miles of riding in mud, dirt, sand, snow...never.

    It is true that the granny ring could go away on my bike 95% of the time, but that 5% is when I'm doing a 45 minute climb at 11,000 feet with a pack, after 12 hours in the saddle. Being stuck in middle ring with my current gearing wouldn't cut it, but the gearing of XX would. However, was it really a big deal to drop down into that granny ring? I never have chainsuck...only drop a chain once or twice a season...

    Weight savings are something I'm also starting to care less about. I spent years trying to keep my bike under 22lbs. The more time I spent with cycling calculators looking at the effects, and also watching some engineering tests by a friend, It also became pretty clear that beyond wheels and tires, everything else is peanuts at a certain point. (I do still run light wheels and tires, and always will...and rolling resistance is KING even beyond weight) Yes, 5 lbs is a big difference, but 100 grams over 16 hours in a non critical location will cost me seconds with an ungodly amount of climbing.

    I've been buying XT cassettes to save $200 a pop, and will likely be getting an XT middle ring this winter to save another chunk of cash. As slow as those parts rotate, and as close as they are to the axis or rotation, it won't matter a bit.
    Great point!! I've been racing for 8 years and keep on coming back to the same conclusion regarding wheels and tires as the key ( rotational mass ) and the rest needs to be good solid parts that I like.
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  25. #25
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    For me, 2x9 would be preferable to 2x10.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by used2Bhard
    I went through this mental gymnastics exercise when picking my bike earlier this year. I knew my Blur couldn't take XX, so I had to really spend some time deciding if XX really would matter. In the end, the reliability of my current XTR/XT drivetrains won out. I never have shifting issues other than the occasional bent der hanger, or dirty cables. In thousands of miles of riding in mud, dirt, sand, snow...never.

    It is true that the granny ring could go away on my bike 95% of the time, but that 5% is when I'm doing a 45 minute climb at 11,000 feet with a pack, after 12 hours in the saddle. Being stuck in middle ring with my current gearing wouldn't cut it, but the gearing of XX would. However, was it really a big deal to drop down into that granny ring? I never have chainsuck...only drop a chain once or twice a season...

    Weight savings are something I'm also starting to care less about. I spent years trying to keep my bike under 22lbs. The more time I spent with cycling calculators looking at the effects, and also watching some engineering tests by a friend, It also became pretty clear that beyond wheels and tires, everything else is peanuts at a certain point. (I do still run light wheels and tires, and always will...and rolling resistance is KING even beyond weight) Yes, 5 lbs is a big difference, but 100 grams over 16 hours in a non critical location will cost me seconds with an ungodly amount of climbing.

    I've been buying XT cassettes to save $200 a pop, and will likely be getting an XT middle ring this winter to save another chunk of cash. As slow as those parts rotate, and as close as they are to the axis or rotation, it won't matter a bit.
    Man you always break it down so well. I swear you reel me back in every time I am going to go for the new fangled idea. Thanks

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffkenn
    Man you always break it down so well. I swear you reel me back in every time I am going to go for the new fangled idea. Thanks
    Yep. He is a bright boy.

  28. #28
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    I'm shopping for a new race bike and since I'm fortunate to get a team deal from Specialized I'm considering an SW HT 29'er, the Epic is just too much $$ even with a deal. I probably wouldn’t consider making the switch to 10 sp, XX, at this point except that’s what Specialized is spec’ing on their SW bikes. My LBS has also generously offered an employee discount on a Superfly. My calculations show that XX provides a 458g advantage over the mostly XO equipped Superfly. A whole pound of weight reduction is significant, especially if it coming on the bike I get the best deal on anyway. I may have to shell out a few extra $$ when it comes time to replace the cassette, but the chain rings will likely be cheaper than the XTR’s I’ve been going through the last few years.
    Last edited by stillhardtailing; 10-16-2009 at 03:56 PM.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillhardtailing
    My calculation show that XX provides a 458g advantage over the mostly XO equipped Superfly. .
    Can you provide more specific details on the weight saving, what parts? I'm not disagreeing, just curios.
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  30. #30
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    I rarely use a 22 chain ring in a race, but use it quite a bit on training days when I need to take it easy, but want to ride the trails instead of the road. I'm contemplating an XX equipped 29'er for next season and one of my main concerns is gear range. Will a 26/36 be easy enough for recovery days? Also will I be out gunned for hole shots or finish sprints with a 39/11 top gear?
    Last edited by stillhardtailing; 10-19-2009 at 09:57 AM.

  31. #31
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    The most significant savings come from the cassette, crank, and brakes.

    Cassette 305-208=97g
    Crank 800-694=106g may actually be less since it's a Spec crank w/XX rings
    brakes f&r 750-576=174g not sure how much of this is from the rotors.

    The derailleurs and shifters together make 111g.

    There are other wieght and personal preference differences between the Specalized and Fisher, but we're talking benefits, or not, of XX here.

  32. #32
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    A one pound advantage over X0. That is very hard to believe, nor do I have the time to crunch the numbers. Not giving you a hard time at all, just would really be interested in how it all computes. It very well could be true. Just hard to believe given the light weight of twist shifters. vs. trigger, etc.

    I know the 2010 S-Works Epic still has some fat on it. The brakes, rims, tires, and handlebars are not the lightest. My 09 S-works Epic, which I built up, is lighter than OEM model and I didn't really go overboard weight weenie on it. I'm sure I could get lighter if I did, but don't really see a need too. I need to focus on my own weight right now.



  33. #33
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    I guess I wasn't thinking of your superfly option. The crank and brakes you used in your calculation are heavy to begin with, although 800 for crank isn't all that bad. Think XTR with 3 rings is 770. Drop a ring and may save some weight or go carbon.



  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppie58
    The general rule of thumb is that it costs $1,000 to lose 1 pound off the bike. The XX components are insanely expensive for minimal weight savings. I dont really see any weight savings if you go to 2x9. It's almost as if SRAM thinks the XX technology is new, when in fact it not really new at all. It's just newly marketed to MTB bikes. There is no reason, other than bling factor, for this stuff to cost so freaking much.

    The more and more I research this component line, the more I learn that there is minimal if any benefit to 10 speed on a mountain bike. If you read other forums the majority of people buying it are doing so for the bling factor. Many are non racers, which makes even less sense.

    I understand the bling factor and guilty of it myself, but given the cost it's just insane. IMO. I change cassettee and chain twice a year as well as middle chain ring on crank. (14 MTB races and 1000s miles training). The maintenance cost of this component line is just insane. I'm a hardcore racer but still don't buy XTR cassette just because of how much they cost. I'd rather push the fork away at the dinner table then spend that money on a replaceable part.
    You can't afford a USAC race license for Expert (Cat 1) but you want XX? And why are you wearing out the middle ring on a 26 inch bike in Michigan, you should be able to pull a standard big ring (42 or 44)?

    As for XX, you get a narrower Q factor on the crank, shorter throws on the shifters, light weight, and an extra gear. On the cassette you have a lightweight 11-36 option (biggest cog is aluminum) which is nice for a 29er. I have also hear that the XX just works better than anything that had been used previously (this from some friends at Interbike).

  35. #35
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    I have been on a 2x9 setup (29/42-11/34) for a while and it's already way better than a 3x9 IMO, less chainsuck risks, you shift less on the front, more on the rear where shifts are smoother and quicker, the chainline can be better to use the whole cassette range while on the big ring, shift on the small ring when climbs are steeper/longer/more technical, weight loss is actually the last reason to do it IMO.

    Now with the 11-36 XX cassette, I'm actually thinking about trying it but with a single ring, 1x10. It wouldn't be the best everywhere but in many races, it would be fine with less things to go wrong, no chainsucks, no slow front shifts, I'd lose the weight of a shifter, a cable and housing, a front derailleur and a chainring (and the weight loss of the XX cassette), just add the weight of a chainguide... Things that make you go hummm...

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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MessagefromTate
    You can't afford a USAC race license for Expert (Cat 1) but you want XX? .
    hmmm, was it that I couldn't afford it or that I didn't want to pay $60 to do three ****ing races, when the other 11 races didn't require one. Give it a rest or did you come here because they locked that thread and you need to say something to feel good about yourself. MMBA forums seem to be infested with ****ing chidren looking for nothing more than to instigate ****. IT's almost become a worthless forum. I'm sure MTBR has those people too but if you read this thread your the first dill hole to be a smart ass and guess what, you come from MMBA forums. Big surprise.

    I will say at least you contributed a little feedback on XX. Normally those from MMBA do nothing more than start **** regardless of what the thread is about.



  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppie58
    hmmm, was it that I couldn't afford it or that I didn't want to pay $60 to do three ****ing races, when the other 11 races didn't require one. Give it a rest or did you come here because they locked that thread and you need to say something to feel good about yourself. MMBA forums seem to be infested with ****ing chidren looking for nothing more than to instigate ****. IT's almost become a worthless forum. I'm sure MTBR has those people too but if you read this thread your the first dill hole to be a smart ass and guess what, you come from MMBA forums. Big surprise.

    I will say at least you contributed a little feedback on XX. Normally those from MMBA do nothing more than start **** regardless of what the thread is about.
    You rock, that reply changed my opinion.

  38. #38
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    Go get your ego boost with the other children at mmba.org. This forum is for real mountain bikers looking for real info. Notice your the only immature responder. Must make you feel special. Keep your childish instigating joys to the mmba. Your just making an ass of yourself here.



  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppie58
    I understand the bling factor and guilty of it myself, but given the cost it's just insane.
    Coming from a guy riding an S-Works Epic, I can only chuckle about the number of comments you've made in this thread about XX being insanely priced. You chose to spend what some people might consider "insane" money on a bike that you like, but which many others might not have on their list of top choices. To each their own.

  40. #40
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    I just bought frame and built it up. Got frame at awesome price otherwise wouldn't have even considered. But seriously back to topic. $300 cassette for XX group. I thought xtr cassttes were expensive. Given the cost and hype I thought for sure I was missing some magical benefit of XX.



  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppie58
    But seriously back to topic. $300 cassette for XX group. I thought xtr cassttes were expensive. Given the cost and hype I thought for sure I was missing some magical benefit of XX.
    But seriously - a lot of people might question why a hack amateur racer needs a $5000 bike, or why said person with a $5000 bike would freak out about the difference in cost between the XX cassette with MSRP $328 vs. the XTR cassette with MSRP $280. $58 dollars difference (or probably less once you get either from a decent source) on a $5000 bike. No biggie.

    I'd never question it myself, but just saying that a "reasonable" person that doesn't have a hobby they love like we do with MTB might consider your entire financial outlay for your participation in the sport a bit wacky. I'm sure you've had the uncomfortable experience of having a friend, family member, or co-worker ask you how much your bike is worth. They just don't understand though, right?

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    Hack? WTF is that suppose to mean? Maybe you could join the other children at mmba. Is it really that hard for people to be mature on these forums? The cost of my bike is irrelavent to the topic. If you need to insult people for an ego boost go into off topic area. Leave the mountain bike threads to those who can discuss things on a more mature manner and keep their eye on the topic.

    Do I need expensive bike. Nope but it's my hobby of choice. Bases on your logic just because I spend a lot on a bike I should automatically be open to throwing my money at anything regardless of the cost. That's just idiotic thought process.

    I also wasn't freaking out about XX. I don't know much about XX component line and given the cost I wondered if there was some benefit I was missing. So I asked mtbr racers of which 99% responded in a way one would expect. I know every forum has their instigators but my experience on mtbr has shoen those usually just dwell in off topic areas. I guess some drift up every once in awhile.



  43. #43
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    Replying on iPhone so can't do quotes but couple people had some good points. It appears some oem come fit with XX component line which I guess is one way to get it but still doesn't change the fact that replacement parts are crazy expensive. I've never even used an XTR casstte given it's cost. I stick to xt, although my new one is back to SRAM. I was thinking about selling epic to get stumpy 29 but that has XX group which prompted me to start this thread.

    Personally, I find the xx group to be a turn off especially knownibg the minimal pros to it. Sure it has a cling factor but like I said before I fo 12-15 races a year and thousands of training miles. Spending 70 on an xt cassttes and 40 on chains twice a year vs. The cost of XX cassette is crazy.

    I agree that a group set won't make you faster but I do believe it can make you more efficient. It's up to the rider to utilize that efficiency to make themselves faster. For some triggers are more efficient than twist. We are all different in what works.



  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppie58
    Hack? WTF is that suppose to mean? Maybe you could join the other children at mmba. Is it really that hard for people to be mature on these forums? The cost of my bike is irrelavent to the topic. If you need to insult people for an ego boost go into off topic area. Leave the mountain bike threads to those who can discuss things on a more mature manner and keep their eye on the topic.
    Geez, a little touchy today are we? Let me spell it out for you;

    Pro = person paid a salary to ride a bike
    Amateur Hack = Everyone else, so welcome to the club

    Quote Originally Posted by Guppie58
    Do I need expensive bike. Nope but it's my hobby of choice. Bases on your logic just because I spend a lot on a bike I should automatically be open to throwing my money at anything regardless of the cost. That's just idiotic thought process.
    That's exactly the point. You aren't asking any questions. Instead, you've posted across several forums of MTBR in quite a dedicated manner explaining many times (phrased as rhetoric pseudo-questions) that there's no benefit to XX and that it's ridiculously expensive. Both of which may or may not be true, but those answers are a personal decision that may be different for different people. Just like your choice of bike and how much you spent on it.

    I've posted a few times in XX threads also, because I am interested in it and haven't come to a conclusion yet. I think it's odd for someone (i.e. you) to take so much effort posting about a product they don't want to own, and have never previously owned. That meets my definition of a person freaking out about something, but I guess if it floats your boat to continue to do so you're welcome it.

  45. #45
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    Personally, I find the xx group to be a turn off especially knownibg the minimal pros to it.
    Thats my quote. i didn't so no benefit I said minimal benefit, if any. Who cares if I posted in XX forums, isn't that what one is suppose to do to learn about stuff? Also, I believe i posted in one other forum (WW) so does that mean several or are you exaggerating? Maybe I'm wrong, you seem to be doing more research on me instead of XX.

    I came to MY conclusion that there is minimal to no benefit of XX. My thought process includes the cost of replacement parts. Others may have a different perspective and thats fine.

    Also, as for hack, I see your thought process, but knowing how much training time I put in as well as my fellow racers, I don't think I'd use the word hack. I have too much respect for what it takes to be competitive at racing.

    And before you start discussing salary, etc. Consider the fact that I may have won a few grand off a scratch off, had a small inheritance, received a small settlement, small bump in stock portfolio, small signing bonus, a job raise. Or maybe my once private country club went public, thus not needing to drop a few grand on that. Not saying any of those are me, but I'd warn you to made smart ass comments about how people spend there money because you can make a fool of yourself quickly. Although you seem to think so, just because one spends a lot of money on one item doesn't mean they should be completely irresponsible about their money. Some people could save money for a long time to buy a bike they've always wanted. That doesn't mean they should automatically spend all their money like a fool. Thus, I would probable reevaluate your prospective on how you feel people should spend their money.

    But anyways, back to XX. This thread (based on constructive repliers) as well as others and internet research, I've concluded that any benefit XX may contribute to riding is quickly diluted by the cost of replacement parts. Especially given the quality of their XO or the XTR system.



  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppie58
    And before you start discussing salary, etc. Consider the fact that I may have won a few grand off a scratch off, had a small inheritance, received a small settlement, small bump in stock portfolio, small signing bonus, a job raise. Or maybe my once private country club went public, thus not needing to drop a few grand on that. Not saying any of those are me, but I'd warn you to made smart ass comments about how people spend there money because you can make a fool of yourself quickly. Although you seem to think so, just because one spends a lot of money on one item doesn't mean they should be completely irresponsible about their money. Some people could save money for a long time to buy a bike they've always wanted. That doesn't mean they should automatically spend all their money like a fool. Thus, I would probable reevaluate your prospective on how you feel people should spend their money.
    You must have some pre-existing sensitivity toward people questioning your cycling related expenditures. If you go back and re-read my posts you'll see that the whole point was to say that I don't think anyone should be making judgements for anyone else about what is "expensive", whether that's deciding to buy an S-Works Epic, or set themselves up with an XX group. You seem unable to apply the same neutral attitude.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Coming from a guy riding an S-Works Epic, I can only chuckle about the number of comments you've made in this thread about XX being insanely priced. You chose to spend what some people might consider "insane" money on a bike that you like, but which many others might not have on their list of top choices. To each their own.
    You were attacking me directly, but whatever floats your boat.


    I came to MY conclusion that there is minimal to no benefit of XX. My thought process includes the cost of replacement parts. Others may have a different perspective and thats fine.
    My quote above makes it CRYSTAL clear that others may have a different perspective. I'd add colorful pop-up pictures to help you understand that, but not sure how to do that on these forums.



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    2 cents

    OK, first of all, why criticize anyone for how much they spend on their bike? If they are willing to spend the money that is their decision-this kind of criticism reeks of envy to me.
    Secondly, of course XX costs more, its the new thing, and it is more advanced than the components that have come before.
    Is there an advantage to XX-compared to what??? Currently I am riding XTR with an 11-34 cassette and a Rotor 2x9 crank with 26-40 Specialties TA rings. I would love to give an XX cassette (11-36), derailleur, and shifters a try with my rotor crank-it would save a little weight vs. the XTR cassette and shifters, and I would also get slightly closer gear spacing.
    I will definitely state that having two front chainrings is a big advantage over a triple: better chainline, less front shifting, less (none) chainsuck, and lighter. More gearing options are always a benefit: if riders can choose the ideal gearing for their area/courses and fitness level.
    As to durability on XX, the jury is out-ditto for group performance in poor (muddy) conditions-theoretically the narrower spacing could result in more problems in mud. XTR cassettes are very durable, if chains are frequently replaced an XTR cassette will last a long time, and should not need frequent replacement. XX cassettes are made of steel, vs. the predominantly titanium of XTR; the steel XX cassette should outlast XTR under the same conditions.
    I am looking forward to seeing what Shimano comes up with next year, if they do a ten speed XTR, I'll bet we'll have even more gearing options: the hole in the XX cassettes (11-34) might get filled-right now my understanding is that the XTR Shadow rear derailleurs will already handle a 36 tooth cog. There are two things that I do not like about XX: the crankset is heavier than it should be for the price, and the non standard bcd reduces gearing options. I really like the fact that my Rotor crank has a standard bcd (74-110, 5 arm) as it allows a myriad of chainring choices.
    Finally-are you going to improve your racing performance by purchasing XX vs XTR? I am sure that everyone here knows better than to expect this, sure, a little weight savings is nice, but a properly timed peak is always going to have a much bigger performance effect than equipment differences. Of course, there is a psychological advantage to one's own perception of their equipment; I certainly do not like being on the start line thinking my equipment is sub par.
    Last edited by barrows; 10-18-2009 at 09:48 PM.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppie58
    Go get your ego boost with the other children at mmba.org. This forum is for real mountain bikers looking for real info. Notice your the only immature responder. Must make you feel special. Keep your childish instigating joys to the mmba. Your just making an ass of yourself here.
    Yeah you're the real deal! What I learned is that you think you have to have the last word so I'll keep calling you out since it is amusing.

    And while you're at it, please review the appropriate grammar lessons regarding the use of "your" and "you're"...

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