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  1. #1
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    August MBA anti-UCI rant

    So I see that the August issue of MBA has a 4 page anti-UCI rant about the shorter XCO tracks and dumbing down of pro courses. It's a bit ironic that they use the Sea Otter race as an example, as I think the paved section of that course exceeded the maximum allowance under UCI MTB regs of 15% of the total course length.

    But aside from that, they're lamenting the loss of 20 mile long lap races in the mountains dictated by the UCI with the shorter courses that are to be between 4-6km in length.

    They were pointing out that the UCI requirements to make races spectator friendly by keeping them compact is a waste of time because no one comes out to watch anyway, again using Sea Otter as an example.

    I think that Mont Sainte Anne is pretty typical of the attendance in many European World Cups, and that is a 5km course that is easily accessible by the thousands of spectators that show up, and a pretty challenging course for the riders.

    I personally think it was a poor idea of the UCI to shorten the race length from 2 hours to 1:30-1:45, as endurance should be a bigger component of a race, but aside from that, it seems that the MBA idea of 20mile long laps almost guarantees that it won't be spectator friendly and won't encourage people to attend or sponsors to support the races.

    It's also a bit ironic that on the page preceding the anti-UCI rant to take back mountain bike racing, there's a full page ad for a product called EPO Booster. What are they really saying about their viewpoint on MTB racing?

    Anyone else read the article and have any thoughts?
    I'm a member of NSMBA and IMBA Canada

  2. #2
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    What a joke, MBA criticizing the World Cup.

    As soon as we do ANYTHING better than the Europeans in regard to cycling, then we can criticize. I guess we dope better.


    On a side note. Our local weekly series has shorten its course due to snow, down to a 3 mile loop. It made for some interesting racing. The 2 guys that beat me, really schooled me on the DH even though we uphill about the same. The guy who finished behind me, I wind up beating because of my slight downhill edge; even though, as the race progressed, he was climbing better than me.

    Seems when the courses are longer, it gives more of an edge to the little climbers, since the climbs become longer (especially here in the mountain west).
    Last edited by Poncharelli; 06-26-2011 at 06:12 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Our high school races are 4-7 miles per lap with the Varsity doing 4 laps. These races are no more spectator-friendly than any other and they are very well attended. Why? Because the spectators are invested and the races aren't on the middle of nowhere. The major UCI races in the States are miles from anywhere. What do you expect?

    Europe is tiny and venues are accessable. The cycling traditions there are much older and more deeply developed than here in the US, and Canada for that matter. Canada has invested in its younger riders to build the racers of the future. The NorCal High School Racing League has developed its program and brand since 2002, formed NICA, the National Interscholastic Cycling Association, and brought its method to Colorado, Washing, Texas and more to come.

    The point to be made here is that until now it was individual kids in isolation who rose to the national and international stage. They were the odd kids-out in their communities who succeed with little support and lots of dedication. This is changing rapidly and the talent pool is growing. The results were clear at Granby last year with NorCal kids jamming the top 10 (who are those guys?).

    Why is baseball so well attended? Yes, it is easy to watch. However, most of the people in the stands played baseball as kids and baseball is meaningful to them in a powerful way. Spectators relate and identify.

    10-15 years from now we will be kicking ass on an international level. The sport will be better subscribed and supported and the kinks will be worked out in the venues. The races will be much better attended, not because of stupid short courses, but because racing will be more meaningful to the general public.

    I am little tired of folks parading European superiority as if it were something intrinsic and some failure of our national ability. We're just getting started here.

    You have been warned.
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  4. #4
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    Is spectator friendliness relevant ? Peeps want to see a few sections of the course, not the off portions 6 miles from nowhere.

    Are they expecting to capitalize on revenues generated from viewers? Unless you have a hot dog stand at every quarter mile selling lemonade and souvenirs I do not see how the race distance is relevant. We have world class racing and you want to shorten it for it's viewer friendliness WTF ?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poncharelli View Post

    Seems when the courses are longer, it gives more of an edge to the little climbers, since the climbs become longer (especially here in the mountain west).
    This is exactly why I like longer courses!

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    It is what I call Podium Thinking. They are so focused on the glory of the Podium that they believe that this is what interests people in the sport and that is what motivates crowds and their pocketbooks. It fails miserably because it neglects any true foundation.

    The thinking comes from Racerheads: the motivations which work for racing do little to build a sense of community with anyone but other racers. Yet these folk are so certain of the truth of these ideas. Why not? They are surrounded by like-minded people; powerful, able, focused, determined. Yet what do they know about the people in the stands or building community? They slogged to the top on their own. They rub elbows with their own. They create their events by their own principles. No wonder they come out the way they do.

    When they coach they want to coach only the very best, most motivated, those with the highest potential; it is their goal and how they undertstand success. Talk to them; they have no time for the rest. Even when these fine athletes give their time to the High School League it is only to the top riders. After all of the encoraging of entry level riders, their exhaustive developement and support, they stand at the end of the funnel and pluck what they want. Even the champions, when they come to events, their attention is only for the top riders; they even refere to this as "givng back." That should tell you something.

    It is so Wrong-end-of-the-telescope. All these folk see is the top and selling the highlights. It is part vanity and part narrow-mindedeness. There is no sense of building outside their strata. Does the USAC work to buidl cyclists in elementry school like soccer, baseball, football, volleyball, church leagues? Nope. they just harvest the self-developed talent.

    Cycling and racing is so much bigger than the Podium. Simple victory is the easy story. The real story is about how everyone else is involved. If that is ignored then you may as well race like paramutual greyhounds.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    10-15 years from now we will be kicking ass on an international level. The sport will be better subscribed and supported and the kinks will be worked out in the venues. The races will be much better attended, not because of stupid short courses, but because racing will be more meaningful to the general public.

    I am little tired of folks parading European superiority as if it were something intrinsic and some failure of our national ability. We're just getting started here.

    You have been warned.
    Just getting started! I thought mountain biking started in the US?
    It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required.

  8. #8
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    The traditions for bike racing in Europe and the market supporting it is far richer no matter where one thinks it started.
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  9. #9
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    MBA same morons that...

    Said 29ers are a passing fad that only exist in Crested Butte.. The fashion article was the dumbest though..

  10. #10
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    Don't World Cups have excellent crowds?

    Shorter courses to make the races spectator friendly makes sense to me. What I think is more important is to make sure they are true mountain bike courses in terms of the terrain. I don't want to see them racing on buff, hardpack trail that is more akin to road racing with flat bars and wider tires. If they are navigating technical terrain, powering through bumpy sections, suffering up tough climbs, having to bomb descents to not lose time to those who ride well downhill--those are the things that define a mountain bike race course to me. Not whether the loop is 6km or 16 miles.

  11. #11
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    Long boring courses with huge climbs and no technical difficulty has been a specialty of the US for years. The rest of the world has building tough, short courses that spectators pay to watch people race on. Consequently MTb racing has done well every where else but is on life support in the US.

    Except in Wisconson where the courses are very similar to your typical European courses. There race are extremely well attended and when a big show comes to town people come out to watch. The rest of the US (and Canada) needs to model after WORS.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  12. #12
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    Well, the UCI also screwed up the whole self-supported thing in MTB as well. It is all about sponsorship money. The more they can paste sponsors names around the course and have people see 'em, the more they make. If they can put banners around the whole course like a CX race, they probably would.

    BUT having MBA ***** about the UCI is like having Charlie Sheen ***** about the D.E.A. There might be some truth to it but they are both bat-**** crazy and you can't take anything they say seriously.

    All this is why the rise of "alternative" racing has gained such favor here in the US (think Gravel Grinders, 24 Hour racing, Ultra-Marathon events, etc.). Mountain biking was all about adventure and those UCI-Dirt Road...oops, I mean XC races have no adventure at all in them.

  13. #13
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    Everyone seems to have an image of World Cup courses as non technical, but keep in mind the Freecaster TV camera positions tend to be where they can catch more than one section of the course, not in the dark and challenging sections.

    There's a good helmet cam shot of Mont Sainte Anne from last weekend's Quebec Cup race, which bypasses the most technical WC course descents and some other re-routes, but otherwise this is fairly representative of the majority of the course.

    Mont-Sainte-Anne 2011 XC Race 1st lap (GoPro Video)

    The Olympic courses should be as challenging as Mont Sainte Anne.
    I'm a member of NSMBA and IMBA Canada

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Fubar Rider View Post
    Well, the UCI also screwed up the whole self-supported thing in MTB as well. It is all about sponsorship money. The more they can paste sponsors names around the course and have people see 'em, the more they make. If they can put banners around the whole course like a CX race, they probably would.

    BUT having MBA ***** about the UCI is like having Charlie Sheen ***** about the D.E.A. There might be some truth to it but they are both bat-**** crazy and you can't take anything they say seriously.

    All this is why the rise of "alternative" racing has gained such favor here in the US (think Gravel Grinders, 24 Hour racing, Ultra-Marathon events, etc.). Mountain biking was all about adventure and those UCI-Dirt Road...oops, I mean XC races have no adventure at all in them.
    I agree with this guy. Thanks for saving me the typing.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Fubar Rider View Post
    Well, the UCI also screwed up the whole self-supported thing in MTB as well. It is all about sponsorship money. The more they can paste sponsors names around the course and have people see 'em, the more they make. If they can put banners around the whole course like a CX race, they probably would.

    BUT having MBA ***** about the UCI is like having Charlie Sheen ***** about the D.E.A. There might be some truth to it but they are both bat-**** crazy and you can't take anything they say seriously.

    All this is why the rise of "alternative" racing has gained such favor here in the US (think Gravel Grinders, 24 Hour racing, Ultra-Marathon events, etc.). Mountain biking was all about adventure and those UCI-Dirt Road...oops, I mean XC races have no adventure at all in them.
    Looking at helmet cam from alot of UCI course they are alot more technical than Freecaster shows them to be.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Our high school races are 4-7 miles per lap with the Varsity doing 4 laps. These races are no more spectator-friendly than any other and they are very well attended. Why? Because the spectators are invested and the races aren't on the middle of nowhere. The major UCI races in the States are miles from anywhere. What do you expect?

    Europe is tiny and venues are accessable. The cycling traditions there are much older and more deeply developed than here in the US, and Canada for that matter. Canada has invested in its younger riders to build the racers of the future. The NorCal High School Racing League has developed its program and brand since 2002, formed NICA, the National Interscholastic Cycling Association, and brought its method to Colorado, Washing, Texas and more to come.

    The point to be made here is that until now it was individual kids in isolation who rose to the national and international stage. They were the odd kids-out in their communities who succeed with little support and lots of dedication. This is changing rapidly and the talent pool is growing. The results were clear at Granby last year with NorCal kids jamming the top 10 (who are those guys?).

    Why is baseball so well attended? Yes, it is easy to watch. However, most of the people in the stands played baseball as kids and baseball is meaningful to them in a powerful way. Spectators relate and identify.

    10-15 years from now we will be kicking ass on an international level. The sport will be better subscribed and supported and the kinks will be worked out in the venues. The races will be much better attended, not because of stupid short courses, but because racing will be more meaningful to the general public.

    I am little tired of folks parading European superiority as if it were something intrinsic and some failure of our national ability. We're just getting started here.

    You have been warned.

  17. #17
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    Berkely Mike...

    your view of what people do as "giving back" is a bit skewed maybe. when Allison and I attended the local high school race we volunteered to ride sweep. the newest and least "podium" racers were who we rode with. the entire time we talked to them, worked with them, heck i was adjusting one kid's bike because nobody told him he should raise his seatpost. i do see your point though, nobody wants to put time/money/effort into an "also ran". this is likely why so many of our pros and people with talent struggle to make ends meet.... not to mention those that are just out there for fun.


    i think that when done properly the short courses work famously here in the US. Fontana ProXCT is a great example IMO. it is a bummer that so many people complain about it. the course, the accessibility, and the spectator showing is far above anything else in the US that i have attended. caveat being that I have never been to a WORS race or the World Cup in Windham, i hope that Allison and I get to attend one of the WORS races next year... but that is dependent on her "black death foot" not returning.
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  18. #18
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    I've done this for ten years; building mtb where there was none, with several teams and communities and the YMCA. It means a lot to me that you guys did this and I really apreciate it so much. You bring so much to the party. We learn so much when we work at this level. This, however, is the exception. We generally see the great pro talent at the camps for the top riders. We see the sponsorship focus on the Podium, too. Like I said; Victory is an easy sell.

    The real work at building the sport is at the entry level, not just at the big Sunday rides and races but on those Monday and Wednesday and Friday rides. Over and over and over. It is the work with educating the parents about the value of what our sport does for kids and for riders as they get older, above and beyond what other sports do.

    And then there are the little bros and sisters who see this. They hang around the tent, eat the team food, ride their little bikes around the venue, watch the warm-ups and the riders get ready. And the parenst never have to worry about them. The kids look up to the big kids and their older sibs. You know what happens when the family buys-in and the next kid is old enough? Slam dunk.

    This is what grows the sport.
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    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 06-26-2011 at 08:19 PM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I've done this for ten years; building mtb where there was none, with several teams and communities and the YMCA. It means a lot to me that you guys did this and I really apreciate it so much. You bring so much to the party. We learn so much when we work at this level. This, however, is the exception. We generally see the great pro talent at the camps for the top riders. We see the sponsorship focus on the Podium, too. Like I said; Victory is an easy sell.

    The real work at building the sport is at the entry level, not just at the big Sunday rides and races but on those Monday and Wednesday and Friday rides. Over and over and over. It is the work with educating the parents about the value of what our sport does for kids and for riders as they get older, above and beyond what other sports do.

    And then there are the little bros and sisters who see this. They hang around the tent, eat the team food, ride their little bikes around the venue, watch the warm-ups and the riders get ready. And the parenst never have to worry about them. The kids look up to the big kids and their older sibs. You know what happens when the family buys-in and the next kid is old enough? Slam dunk. And it grows.
    agreed. i honestly wish i had the time to stay on top of work and my own/allison's training plus do multiple weekly "fun" rides. that isn't my reality. some day my priority will shift, but that isn't right now.

    very similar feeling for things like Dean Kamen's FIRST organization for science/engineering. people at work ask me all the time to donate time to FIRST and share my knowledge/skill. my response is always that my time right now is spent helping my wife try to achieve a dream, and that i get the value of helping kids but my first obligation is to my own family. at least riding bikes with kids aligns with our lives outside of work!

    EDIT.... by the way. thanks for all the work YOU do to be a part of making high school racing what it has become. i love the direction of things!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by whybotherme; 06-26-2011 at 08:24 PM.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by whybotherme View Post
    agreed. i honestly wish i had the time to stay on top of work and my own/allison's training plus do multiple weekly "fun" rides. that isn't my reality. some day my priority will shift, but that isn't right now.

    very similar feeling for things like Dean Kamen's FIRST organization for science/engineering. people at work ask me all the time to donate time to FIRST and share my knowledge/skill. my response is always that my time right now is spent helping my wife try to achieve a dream, and that i get the value of helping kids but my first obligation is to my own family. at least riding bikes with kids aligns with our lives outside of work!
    One cannot build community from the generousity of people without appreciating the life forces which bind them. I cannot, in any way, deminish the efforts fo people who volunteer. Even folk who don't want to do it anymore or can't see their way to it; they all have perfectly good reasons. The point I want to make is that the people who proclaim to form the future of the sport from the top are off target, don't understand what needs to be done because it is not their skill, and are cutting the course.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 06-26-2011 at 09:58 PM.
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  21. #21
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    WORS is an awesome racing series. Don does a great job with the courses and the series as a whole is very organized. I wish every state could have a series as successful and developed as WORS is.

    The laps are around 5 miles and there are usually plenty of areas for spectators to view while still having a technical aspect.

    Since WORS has started Don has grown the series and has figured out how to run the series efficiently and in a way that keeps everyone happy.

    It still surprises me how many little details he manages to include. Every racer gets a handbook the size of a magazine mailed to them each year before the series. Don has also figured out how to get major sponsers on board and keep them involved.

    WORS is a great series and now that I'm no longer in Wisconsin I definitely miss it.

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    Wait...

    The August issue of MBA is already out?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerboyj17 View Post
    WORS is an awesome racing series. Don does a great job with the courses and the series as a whole is very organized. I wish every state could have a series as successful and developed as WORS is.

    The laps are around 5 miles and there are usually plenty of areas for spectators to view while still having a technical aspect.

    Since WORS has started Don has grown the series and has figured out how to run the series efficiently and in a way that keeps everyone happy.

    It still surprises me how many little details he manages to include. Every racer gets a handbook the size of a magazine mailed to them each year before the series. Don has also figured out how to get major sponsers on board and keep them involved.

    WORS is a great series and now that I'm no longer in Wisconsin I definitely miss it.
    Where are you living now?

    I agree with the success of the WORS series. I try to get in at least 2 or 3 of their races every season just to experience their "events". It's always worth the drive.

    A very similar success story is going on in the neighboring state of Minnesota where a typical Sunday race brings out 325-360+ racers (categories are Kid's Comp, Citizen, Sport, Comp, Expert, Pro). And Minnesota is starting up the high school mountain bike racing series in the fall of 2012 with the four race demo race program underway this summer (yesterday was the 2nd race in the demo series).

    In terms of spectators, you get a built in spectator group at a series race as large as WORS or Minnesota simply by way of family and friends that attend. It's hard to argue, that on any given weekend, there are about 1100 - 1200 XC racers having at it in just these 2 states combined. Each state has a population roughly around 5.5 M - so, compared to other sports, it is a very minute percentage of the population that partake. Having watched other categories before or after the race I participate in is completed, and turning into a spectator, I can't say mountain bike racing is the most spectator friendly and exciting sport to watch in the first place. Add music, beer, food, and visiting with other people while watching - it's still not high on the list of exciting to watch (at least compared to participating in it).

    As others have mentioned in above posts, I'd say the better approach is to focus on increasing the number of participants which will automatically increase the number of spectators (via family and friends). Now, that's an entirely separate issue with regard to the UCI and their quest to make professional races and courses more spectator friendly. Or is it? Participation at all levels may be the best way to grow interest in attending or watching an event.

    It might be a cold day in heck before the average US citizen places "attend a professional mountain bike race" on their list of possible weekend activities....(in no certain order)

    1. Catch a movie
    2. Hit the mall/shopping
    3. Go out to eat
    4. Do some exercise
    5. Hang out with friends
    6. House/Yard work
    7. Spend time with the family
    8. Catch a pro sporting event (football, baseball, basketball, soccer, tennis, golf, etc...)
    9. Go to a wine, food, arts, music, concert, fair, festival/event
    10. Let's go stand on the side of a cow path on the side of a hill and watch a bunch of guys in Lycra whiz by all hot and dusty for a couple of hours.

    Unless you actually participate in the sport yourself (have vested interest), or have family/friends involved in mountain bike racing, I seriously doubt anyone is going to choose option #10 for a weekend activity. No matter how spectator friendly a course is, or how many sponsors are involved with the event.

  24. #24
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    I'm living in Washington now. There are some great rides here and it's nice to have a little more elevation change, but I definitely miss the WORS series.

    There are a couple racing series here but they are no where near as developed as WORS is.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    Participation at all levels may be the best way to grow interest in attending or watching an event.

    It might be a cold day in heck before the average US citizen places "attend a professional mountain bike race" on their list of possible weekend activities....(in no certain order)

    1. Catch a movie
    2. Hit the mall/shopping
    3. Go out to eat
    4. Do some exercise
    5. Hang out with friends
    6. House/Yard work
    7. Spend time with the family
    8. Catch a pro sporting event (football, baseball, basketball, soccer, tennis, golf, etc...)
    9. Go to a wine, food, arts, music, concert, fair, festival/event
    10. Let's go stand on the side of a cow path on the side of a hill and watch a bunch of guys in Lycra whiz by all hot and dusty for a couple of hours.

    Unless you actually participate in the sport yourself (have vested interest), or have family/friends involved in mountain bike racing, I seriously doubt anyone is going to choose option #10 for a weekend activity. No matter how spectator friendly a course is, or how many sponsors are involved with the event.
    Thats a really good point. Even among the mtbers that don't race, its a small percentage that shows up for a race. It would take a full-on "lance effect" to get people really excited. Hate to admit it, but the wide open gravel roads in Race Across the Sky probably did more to help promote the sport in the US than WC races.

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