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  1. #1
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    another intervals Q, 20s on a training loop; hard / easy / hard

    I've enjoyed reading a lot of the training posts here, I think I'm gathering that the 20 minute interval can be a great training tool, useful for improving the 'functional threshold power'. I typically ride a short loop in a local derelict city park, I have cranked out a sub 20minute lap, but I think I'm 'between peaks' at the moment, and a typical fast lap time is 21-22 minutes. The loop has 4 short hard hills, 1-2 minutes each, and a couple of shorter climbs (about 400' of total climbing), with lots of twisty narrow sort of rough trails. I have hit 190bpm running up (cx training), but my usual max is about 180bpm, I can keep my heart rate above 160 the whole loop if I'm hammering (probably between 162 and 178). I'm wondering what you more experienced guys think about doing laps as intervals?; one hard 22 minute lap, then an easy 28min lap, then another hard lap? The hills are hard enough on the easy lap that it's difficult to keep the heart rate very low. Is that range (160-180) close enough to call it an interval?, or are there too many downhill 'rests' in a loop like that? Would I be better off doing a hard lap, leaving the park for 10-20 min for the easy part, then returning to the park for a hard lap? How long between hard laps?, I could get 3 hard laps in if I did 10 min easy in between... I just upped from a podium regular cat2 to a low cat1, and my schedule allows for about 6hrs per week. -thanks for the input!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimPacNW View Post
    Is that range (160-180) close enough to call it an interval?, or are there too many downhill 'rests' in a loop like that? Would I be better off doing a hard lap, leaving the park for 10-20 min for the easy part, then returning to the park for a hard lap? How long between hard laps?, I could get 3 hard laps in if I did 10 min easy in between... I just upped from a podium regular cat2 to a low cat1, and my schedule allows for about 6hrs per week. -thanks for the input!
    There are more educated people here when it comes to training, but I have a similar setup.

    What you said, is basically what I do.

    Ride your hard 20 minute lap, ride a rest lap, but keep your heart rate lower than 160. Crawl up those hills if you need to and then do another lap afterwards. I give a good 20 minutes or a little more between efforts. A quick google search turned this up from bicycling mag.



    Steady State Intervals
    After a good warm-up, ride 10 minutes at a steady effort, keeping your heart rate three to five beats below your LT heart rate. Recover for 10 minutes, then repeat two more times. "Once you're comfortable at this level, do two 20-minute steady-state efforts, recovering for 20 minutes between. Eventually, work up to one 30-minute effort,"suggests Kadlick. "This is the most effective way to increase power at LT."
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    I'm no expert, but I personally found it extremely difficult to keep a steady output on MTB terrain, so I bought a trainer for that purpose.

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    Best way to improve LT power is to ride "at" LT power. After training with a PM for 5 years, I now realize that the best way to get steady LT power is to ride on roads with very little changes in grade.

    Best done by either by riding pancake flat roads, or very steady long climbs. I prefer the flat roads since I can use them while bike commuting, even though it's tougher to get the power out.

    Doing focused time circuits is great though, and it's even better when done in a group. Last year we used to get together and do an unofficial short track race on the trails with 5-7 people on Wednesday nights. 20 minutes balls out. Great stuff, but it's not really direct LT training. More like race simulation.
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    We have no real flat roads around here, just lots of rolling hills, but road is easier for maintaining an effort. I did some road racing long ago, I very much prefer mtb riding, I do have a decent road race bike and a good 1x9 cx bike. The only way I was able to get back into mtb is that I found trails near my house, I can get my workout with no travel time, so it wouldn't work for me to drive to a flat road area, or 20min+ hill area on a regular basis, the driving cuts too much out of my available training hours. My trails are tight and slow enough I can ride there all through the winter (without getting too cold like I would while road riding in winter), so I would prefer to figure out how to best use my local trail loop. I should add, the type of racing I'm training for is cat3 cyclocross with few short hills, and shorter course (with shorter hills) cat1 mtb. A riding buddy and I did 3 laps on Sunday; hard, easy, hard, - it felt pretty good.

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    Ponch is spot on saying that a flat ride would work better or a long steady hill. A 10 minute out and back with a few rollers would work great too if that's nearby.

    I just prefer the mountain bike and that look I ride is 4 miles from my front door. It's more "fun" than a LT ride on the road bike. A loop with larger hills and downhill would be more like a race simulation, but if that's what you have to work with then make it work. I would mimic your Sunday ride. Hard, easy, hard, and do a cool down.

    Edit: If you have a gym nearby, you could easily hop onto one of their stationary bikes. I was at a YMCA last week and some of those programs are tough. If it seems easy, just shift up a gear. I was pouring the sweat. You could easily get 20 minutes in there. No stop lights, downhills, traffic, people talking to you, etc. The bike I rode told me my watts, heart rate, and had a program that was timed with mileage. You could compete against yourself or others. 21 mph on the stationary bike program felt more like 27-28 in real life.
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    As others have said, more consistent terrain will better yield the kind of data you're looking for. Carefully search your area for a moderate sustained climb, flat'ish stretch of road, bike path, adjacent river trail, highway, etc. The trainer is also an option - don't worry, you'll learn to appreciate it. ;-)

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    28 minutes is WAY too much rest between intervals. 5-10 minutes, then go again. 2-3 x 20 is supposed to simulate a hard hour; too much rest and you're just doing two independent 20 minute intervals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    28 minutes is WAY too much rest between intervals. 5-10 minutes, then go again. 2-3 x 20 is supposed to simulate a hard hour; too much rest and you're just doing two independent 20 minute intervals.
    Good point. It's also likely that the 28-minute "rest" loop isn't easy enough. I find that I have to spin super easy in between intervals to maximize power average during interval time, especially when I go for an hour of work time (4X15 or 3X20).
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    Could you not break up the rest loop into shorter intervals? i.e. do 20 minutes on, 5 minutes off, 15 minutes on, 5 minutes off followed by another 20 minutes on... Your body will be screaming by the end of it.

    I've recently started working with steady state intervals more (LT & "Sweet Spot") and regularly do something like 15/10/15 with 5 minutes rests; this is more or less because I find I run out of straight flat road within those time frames. I also ride with a fast group one day a week when I can which might as well be a one hour long threshold interval!
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    Evidence suggests steady riding at or near "threshold" is not the only way nor the best way to improve your FTP. Lots of ways to do this. Mostly depends on your available time, experience, goal events, etc. I would either aim for intensities far below your FTP for long period of time or above it for short efforts. People dont always respond well to the steady, sweet-spot kind of training regime and some often fall into the trap of logging sessions over sessions at L3 and L4, burning the hell out of their body, always going at the same speed, never turning the turbo on. I disgress, this should be for another topic

    I agree though, the road is far better to train at L3 or L4.

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    Good stuff; there's a flat area at the bottom of the trails at/around the lake that would be perfect for the 5-10 recovery before another hard lap. I think the reason I did well racing earlier this year is that the loop I ride is very similar to the local shorter races (slower/tighter trails with shorter climbs). My loop has 4 pretty hard 1-2 minute low-gear climbs, hr is near max at the top of each especially if I stay in a harder gear. Apparently I'm responding well to those short hard efforts, I just hope to keep improving. I'm doing a 5:30am road ride with a couple of younger 30's road guys tomorrow (one an old friend, I have not ridden with them before), and they're doing 6min intervals mixed in as part of their training for an Ironman, we'll see how I hold up!, it should be more fun on the road with some other guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devincicx View Post
    Evidence suggests steady riding at or near "threshold" is not the only way nor the best way to improve your FTP. Lots of ways to do this. Mostly depends on your available time, experience, goal events, etc. I would either aim for intensities far below your FTP for long period of time or above it for short efforts. People dont always respond well to the steady, sweet-spot kind of training regime and some often fall into the trap of logging sessions over sessions at L3 and L4, burning the hell out of their body, always going at the same speed, never turning the turbo on. I disgress, this should be for another topic

    I agree though, the road is far better to train at L3 or L4.
    Just curious, what is the "Evidence that suggests steady riding at or near "threshold" is not the only way nor the best way to improve your FTP"?

    I know that Hunter Allen suggests long rides 2-3 times per month to "enhance your endurance", then goes on to state "Focus on doing longer intervals at or very near your functional threshold power (FTP)."
    Hunter Allen Peaks Coaching Group: The Next Level

    But on the other end, with short anaerobic efforts, the gains come quickly and then level off:
    "the Tabata group improved for 3 weeks and then plateaued despite a continuingly increasing workload. I’d note that anaerobic capacity did improve over the length of the study although most of the benefit came in the first 4 weeks of the study (with far less over the last 2 weeks)."
    Effects of Moderate-Intensity Endurance and High-Intensity Intermitten Training on Anaerobic Capacity and VO2 Max - Research Review | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

    Thanks in advance

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    The Hunter Allen statement is part of why a LOT of people espouse the threshold/sweet spot approach, that, and time crunched constraints.

    I would not rely on the Tabata paper to conclude anything about high intensity stuff. There are a whole lot of training manipulations that can be made to include HIIT in your trianing plan. Im not saying to avoid L3-L4 training, but I strongly believe they should not form the bulk of ones training plan. Why? Because at some point, they are taxing, induce significant metabolic, psychological, hormonal, neural and muscular stress. Are hard to recover from and dont seem to produce the gains they should for the efforts invested.

    http://fastforwardtriathlon.com/wp-c...e-Athletes.pdf
    Best Ways To Build Endurance
    Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance: the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training

    I also have a few PDF on my laptop. Basically search for anything on elite athlete intensity distribution, high intensity endurance training, polarized training (80/20), etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devincicx View Post
    The Hunter Allen statement is part of why a LOT of people espouse the threshold/sweet spot approach, that, and time crunched constraints.

    I would not rely on the Tabata paper to conclude anything about high intensity stuff. There are a whole lot of training manipulations that can be made to include HIIT in your trianing plan. Im not saying to avoid L3-L4 training, but I strongly believe they should not form the bulk of ones training plan. Why? Because at some point, they are taxing, induce significant metabolic, psychological, hormonal, neural and muscular stress. Are hard to recover from and dont seem to produce the gains they should for the efforts invested.

    http://fastforwardtriathlon.com/wp-c...e-Athletes.pdf
    Best Ways To Build Endurance
    Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance: the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training

    I also have a few PDF on my laptop. Basically search for anything on elite athlete intensity distribution, high intensity endurance training, polarized training (80/20), etc.
    espouse [ɪˈspaʊz]
    vb (tr)
    1. to adopt or give support to - I had to look it up, and maybe help other readers. I had no idea what it meant.

    "I would not rely on the Tabata paper to conclude anything about high intensity stuff"
    OK, thanks for the advice - forget scientific papers.

    Second article you supplied would probably work great if you are an "elite endurance athletes, who typically train with 10-12 workouts and 15-30 hours each week" as article states. (It took me a while to figure out you had 3 different articles)

    I do not think a hour of intensity a week (20% of volume) would work well for me preparing for 1-2 hr mtb race. So far focusing on L3-L4 has solid results for me.

    My off-season
    Preparing for first MTB race of the season

    I hope this program works well for you.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devincicx View Post
    Evidence suggests steady riding at or near "threshold" is not the only way nor the best way to improve your FTP. Lots of ways to do this. Mostly depends on your available time, experience, goal events, etc. I would either aim for intensities far below your FTP for long period of time or above it for short efforts. People dont always respond well to the steady, sweet-spot kind of training regime and some often fall into the trap of logging sessions over sessions at L3 and L4, burning the hell out of their body, always going at the same speed, never turning the turbo on. I disgress, this should be for another topic

    I agree though, the road is far better to train at L3 or L4.
    Agree.

    Basically what you're saying is...

    Variety of intensity is key.
    Adequate recovery is key.

    Knowingly seek the extremes of your training zones, and beware of the purpose of each.

    In a nutshell...

    Go SUPER HARD (when working power/strength, short/punchy hills, sprints, etc.).
    Go SUPER EASY (recovery - almost feeling guilty...).
    Go MODERATE (when working LT in 20 min intervals, etc.).

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    of course it all depends on your level, experience, objectives, time available, etc.

    I would not take the 20% as it is, i-e I would not hammer the crap out of myself doing 20% high intensity during a week.

    Riding at L3-L4 intensities will get you good at that: be fast arround threshold, thats it. You got to throw in some high intensity stuff. But, to each his own.

    FYI, I basically did no L3-L4 this winter, or very very little of it. All I did was L5 work, high intensity micro-intervals, a few short spins, all on a 8-12h training regime, on the trainer. My FTP got to an all time high. Of course, you might want to still do some L3-L4 work here and there, I just feel it is not worth the efforts, fatigue, recovery, mental stress, for the gains they will bring.

    Like everything else, you will probably see some gains doing L3-L4 work, but they will likely plateau relatively quickly. Variety is important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brushman View Post
    Agree.

    Basically what you're saying is...

    Variety of intensity is key.
    Adequate recovery is key.

    Knowingly seek the extremes of your training zones, and beware of the purpose of each.

    In a nutshell...

    Go SUPER HARD (when working power/strength, short/punchy hills, sprints, etc.).
    Go SUPER EASY (recovery - almost feeling guilty...).
    Go MODERATE (when working LT in 20 min intervals, etc.).
    Yes, but dont do number 3 too often or dont make it the foundation of your training regime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devincicx View Post
    Yes, but dont do number 3 too often or dont make it the foundation of your training regime.
    Agree.

    ("3" being the venerable 'gray area'.)

    Friel, Allen, and Coggan all support this. And, from my 20+ years experience, I found it to be effective.

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    I did that early am road ride this morning, those guys were plenty strong on the road it seemed for non-racers; I was keeping up fine until about 2/3 through on a long steady hill, the HRM got above 180 and I knew the drop was coming, they were nice enough to wait up for me, and then backed off just a bit and I kept up fine after that. I have done very little road in a long long time, I can clearly see I need to ride more road with these guys, along with my short/hard efforts and intervals on my trails. I had a little tire-chainstay rub around the point of the drop, which did not make me faster (rear sqewer not quite tight enough), but I don't think I can blame too much on that. Apparently they felt it was a faster ride than usual, avg speed just over 20mph, -probably pushing the pace a bit to test out the new old-guy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devincicx View Post
    of course it all depends on your level, experience, objectives, time available, etc.

    I would not take the 20% as it is, i-e I would not hammer the crap out of myself doing 20% high intensity during a week.

    Riding at L3-L4 intensities will get you good at that: be fast arround threshold, thats it. You got to throw in some high intensity stuff. But, to each his own.

    FYI, I basically did no L3-L4 this winter, or very very little of it. All I did was L5 work, high intensity micro-intervals, a few short spins, all on a 8-12h training regime, on the trainer. My FTP got to an all time high. Of course, you might want to still do some L3-L4 work here and there, I just feel it is not worth the efforts, fatigue, recovery, mental stress, for the gains they will bring.

    Like everything else, you will probably see some gains doing L3-L4 work, but they will likely plateau relatively quickly. Variety is important.
    What was your FTP when you started and where did you end up? Also, when did you start and end your winer training (time of year)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimPacNW View Post
    I have done very little road in a long long time, I can clearly see I need to ride more road with these guys, along with my short/hard efforts and intervals on my trails. ...avg speed just over 20mph...
    Yes, ride more road and everything improves!

    (20+ mph/ave is a respectable pace!)

    For me, I spend about 90% of my time training & racing on the road. Doing so allows for a more consistent and predictable environment in which to focus on the various physiological aspects of cycling.

    Of course, sharpen the technical off-road-specific skills and requirements as needed, but all of cycling is aerobic, anaerobic, etc., and these areas can be developed on the road where there is less potential for crashes and injury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teamshredd View Post
    What was your FTP when you started and where did you end up? Also, when did you start and end your winer training (time of year)?
    I typically start my training around november and end it around early march. I gained 25-30W at FTP during that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devincicx View Post
    I typically start my training around november and end it around early march. I gained 25-30W at FTP during that time.
    That's really good doing "All I did was L5 work, high intensity micro-intervals, a few short spins, all on a 8-12h training regime, on the trainer."

    What did you start at and end up with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brushman View Post
    Agree.

    ("3" being the venerable 'gray area'.)

    Friel, Allen, and Coggan all support this. And, from my 20+ years experience, I found it to be effective.
    I am new at this compared to you guys.

    I figured if Allen promotes SST (high L3/low L4) and threshold in winter/off season, he would have you do it in season also.
    http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Ar...20Training.pdf

    http://roadmagazine.net/road_home/fe..._Power_Nov.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottz123 View Post
    I am new at this compared to you guys.

    I figured if Allen promotes SST (high L3/low L4) and threshold in winter/off season, he would have you do it in season also.
    http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Ar...20Training.pdf

    http://roadmagazine.net/road_home/fe..._Power_Nov.pdf
    There is a time for everything.

    In preparation for the upcoming race season, winter is best for this structured 'upper foundation' work.

    During race season, you usually get enough of the L3/L4 stress from the events themselves, and thus, more focus is placed on race-specific short/intense workouts and to allow for much needed recovery.

    Periodically, however, when scheduling allows (mid-season, etc.), it's good to refresh the formal 'winter' L3/L4 workouts because some of those benefits will have diminished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brushman View Post
    There is a time for everything.

    In preparation for the upcoming race season, winter is best for this structured 'upper foundation' work.

    During race season, you usually get enough of the L3/L4 stress from the events themselves, and thus, more focus is placed on race-specific short/intense workouts and to allow for much needed recovery.

    Periodically, however, when scheduling allows (mid-season, etc.), it's good to refresh the formal 'winter' L3/L4 workouts because some of those benefits will have diminished.
    And here I always figured it was more the other way around - that you could get enough anaerobic work in from racing and and riding off road since:

    "As the researchers state regarding the Tabata group

    After 3 wk of training, the VO2 max had increased significantly by 5+-3ml.kg/min. It tended to increase in the last part of the training period but no significant changes were observed.

    Basically, the Tabata group improved for 3 weeks and then plateaued despite a continuingly increasing workload. I’d note that anaerobic capacity did improve over the length of the study although most of the benefit came in the first 4 weeks of the study (with far less over the last 2 weeks)."
    Effects of Moderate-Intensity Endurance and High-Intensity Intermitten Training on Anaerobic Capacity and VO2 Max - Research Review | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

    So if anaerobic gains plateau quickly - what else do you work on the rest of the year/season that would make you more fit for racing? I would have thought L3/L4

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottz123 View Post
    So if anaerobic gains plateau quickly - what else do you work on the rest of the year/season that would make you more fit for racing?
    Plateau quickly? - One must think long term when judging physical/performance gains, as in years.

    The concept of periodization, load variation (TSS - Training Stress Score), and annual performance schedule would apply here.

    There has been much written on the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brushman View Post
    Agree.

    ("3" being the venerable 'gray area'.)

    Friel, Allen, and Coggan all support this. And, from my 20+ years experience, I found it to be effective.
    Recent article (7/1/13) by Joe Friel recommends performing Coggan's "Sweet Spot" workouts for both build and base.

    Base Training
    "FTP can be increased by doing Coggan’s “Sweet Spot” workout. After warming up do 2x20-minute intervals at about 90% of your FTP with a 5-minute recovery between them." Joe Friel

    Build Period
    "In the Build period do workouts that become increasingly like the race. This usually involves intervals that match the demands of the race for which you are training. Once you have power data accumulated from your races you’ll be able to more accurately determine the duration and intensity of these intervals and the recovery time between them.

    During the Build period do a weekly aerobic endurance workout to maintain EF and a weekly Sweet Spot session to keep your FTP high. The other workouts will be racelike or recovery" Joe Friel

    How to Start Mountain Bike Training with*Power - Posts - TrainingPeaks Blog

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    Quote Originally Posted by brushman View Post
    Plateau quickly?
    3 weeks out of a 52 week year sounds pretty quick to me, from what I got out of article for "anaerobic work". I would agree that raising FTP would be long term, as in years.

    "After 3 wk of training, the VO2 max had increased significantly by 5+-3ml.kg/min. It tended to increase in the last part of the training period but no significant changes were observed."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottz123 View Post
    3 weeks sounds pretty quick to me, from what I got out of article for "anaerobic work". I would agree that raising FTP would be long term, as in years.

    "After 3 wk of training, the VO2 max had increased significantly by 5+-3ml.kg/min. It tended to increase in the last part of the training period but no significant changes were observed."
    Again, it is best to take a long term approach to training and performance.

    Selectively dissecting various training stages (as in this study) misconstrues the importance of timing and the benefits of overall periodization -- training stress and recovery.

    While short term gains can be made, it takes years for the body to fully adapt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brushman View Post
    Again, it is best to take a long term approach to training and performance.

    Selectively dissecting various training stages (as in this study) misconstrues the importance of timing and the benefits of overall periodization -- training stress and recovery.
    What I got out of article, is that it "highlights" the importance of timing and the benefits of overall periodization.

    "Interestingly, the running coach Arthur Lydiard made this observation half a century ago; after months of base training, he found that only 3 weeks of interval work were necessary to sharpen his athletes. More than that was neither necessary nor desirable. Other studies using cycling have found similar results: intervals improve certain parameters of athletic performance for about 3 weeks or 6 sessions and then they stop having any further benefit." article quote

    Did you have time to read it? I thought it was good

    Effects of Moderate-Intensity Endurance and High-Intensity Intermitten Training on Anaerobic Capacity and VO2 Max - Research Review | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

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    While interesting (sometimes), getting immersed in academic studies can be paralyzing.

    Most important is actually getting on the bike, applying these concepts, and personally experiencing the outcome.

  34. #34
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    Thanks for the heads up - No paralysis here.

    I am applying what I have learned and getting results (race results and raising FTP). Trying to help others with what I have learned - focus on the 'good stuff' and avoid the 'junk'. Best way I have learned to do that is studies/facts, not an individuals perceptions or feelings.

    Interesting Friel comment dated 6/5/11:
    "Although we are usually told to avoid zone 3 training, this is the block in which I have seen the greatest gains in FTP. Zone 3, especially the upper portion, seems to be quite effective for producing aerobic fitness and yet not overly demanding on the body requiring frequent or extended recovery. It seems I saw such a finding in a paper by Dr. Eric Bannister a few years ago but I’ve been unable to find it. He’s the one who developed the TRIMP system. Allen and Coggan in their excellent book, Training and Racing with a Power Meter, refer to the upper end of zone 3 and the lower end of zone 4 as the “sweet spot” and a range that is very effective for producing aerobic fitness." Joe Friel
    Joe Friel - Training for Advanced Athletes, Part 5

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    "Sharpen" is still a relative term. Lydiard's athletes did MASSIVE amounts of tempo and low-end threshold training. 10mi tempo runs and the like; very similar to a 2x20 or 2x30min set on the bike. Then they sharpened with 200s, 400s, 800s, 1000s, etc., depending on their specific event as their main focus for the season drew near.

    For most people, tempo/low-end threshold is the equivalent of riding at a pace at which you can utter a few words at a time. Not dying, not conversational, not riding to the beach with your old lady.
    Death from Below.
    RLTW!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottz123 View Post
    Best way I have learned to do that is studies/facts, not an individuals perceptions or feelings.
    Agreed.

    Still, each must eventually (and consistently) do the work to gauge individual outcomes and make personal modifications - just no way of getting around that.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    "Sharpen" is still a relative term. Lydiard's athletes did MASSIVE amounts of tempo and low-end threshold training. 10mi tempo runs and the like; very similar to a 2x20 or 2x30min set on the bike. Then they sharpened with 200s, 400s, 800s, 1000s, etc., depending on their specific event as their main focus for the season drew near.

    For most people, tempo/low-end threshold is the equivalent of riding at a pace at which you can utter a few words at a time. Not dying, not conversational, not riding to the beach with your old lady.
    I think this is spot on. Where Lydiard got consistently mis quoted was by people was said he wanted us to do lots of "LSD", this starting the jogging boom of the 1980's.

    As you note, lydiard's runners were drilling 6 minute miles for those long runs, not looking at the birds.

    I am coming to a view that tempo is really a great training tool for getting you 95% of the way there.

    That said, i'm going to try messing with some high intensity training for cross this year and see if it helps me.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jroden View Post
    I think this is spot on. Where Lydiard got consistently mis quoted was by people was said he wanted us to do lots of "LSD", this starting the jogging boom of the 1980's.

    As you note, lydiard's runners were drilling 6 minute miles for those long runs, not looking at the birds.

    I am coming to a view that tempo is really a great training tool for getting you 95% of the way there.

    That said, i'm going to try messing with some high intensity training for cross this year and see if it helps me.
    Here is an article by Stephen Cheung - co-author of Cutting-Edge Cycling along with Hunter Allen. Talks about his preparation for CX season. Maybe it will help you.
    PezCycling News - What's Cool In Pro Cycling : Toolbox: Training Plan Simplicity

    If you are curious why in article he states:
    "Rather than jump into very short 10-15 s intervals right away, I went with the philosophy of maximizing my anaerobic power by spending two weeks doing 3-4 workouts/week of 6-8 absolute maximal 1 min efforts from a standing start with lots of recovery in between."

    Stephen Cheung's response via email was that his weakness was lack of "anaerobic power" (ability to crank those really massive watts to close a big gap, respond to an attack, really hammer up a short hill) vs. "anaerobic endurance" (the ability to make short efforts and recover, and have that high level of repeatability of efforts)

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jroden View Post
    I think this is spot on. Where Lydiard got consistently mis quoted was by people was said he wanted us to do lots of "LSD", this starting the jogging boom of the 1980's.

    As you note, lydiard's runners were drilling 6 minute miles for those long runs, not looking at the birds.

    I am coming to a view that tempo is really a great training tool for getting you 95% of the way there.

    That said, i'm going to try messing with some high intensity training for cross this year and see if it helps me.
    Indeed. I came to cycling from running collegiate track. Even 1500m guys were doing 60-70 miles a week. And I think the slowest mile I ever ran, outside of an early morning jog, was 7:00/mile, for more than 10 miles.

    The main point of tempo-heavy training is to get 90% the physiological effects of intervals without the same physical stress. When you elevate "easy" runs from 8:00/mile to 6:30/mile, your high end output goes up as well. I was never a star, but I was running a 4:25 mile with no real interval work as a college freshman, despite the fact that I'd run nothing longer than the 800m since sophomore year of high school.
    Death from Below.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottz123 View Post
    Here is an article by Stephen Cheung - co-author of Cutting-Edge Cycling along with Hunter Allen. Talks about his preparation for CX season. Maybe it will help you.
    PezCycling News - What's Cool In Pro Cycling : Toolbox: Training Plan Simplicity

    If you are curious why in article he states:
    "Rather than jump into very short 10-15 s intervals right away, I went with the philosophy of maximizing my anaerobic power by spending two weeks doing 3-4 workouts/week of 6-8 absolute maximal 1 min efforts from a standing start with lots of recovery in between."

    Stephen Cheung's response via email was that his weakness was lack of "anaerobic power" (ability to crank those really massive watts to close a big gap, respond to an attack, really hammer up a short hill) vs. "anaerobic endurance" (the ability to make short efforts and recover, and have that high level of repeatability of efforts)
    Thank you, that's a great article and about what I had in mind. The last few years I have been losing races in the first lap, so I figured that I'd concentrate and gaining the fitness to go harder from the gun and let the other 6 laps take care of themself. Might be a crackpot plan, but I figured I'd try it.

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