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  1. #1
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    Anerobic repetition training

    Just starting to build in anerobic reps into my training (Friel - build period).

    Did The Sufferfest - Revolver last night which is 16 x 1min max efforts with 1 min rests. Heart rate went to zone 5c (Friel) each rep and the whole thing was pretty darn brutal.
    By the end I was weak and had to lie down for 20mins to cope with the nausea! After that I perked up and ate a hearty meal. However I slept badly last night and feel properly tired today with a bit of a headache.

    My reaction to this is to rest for a couple of days then add these sessions back into the mix but do only say 6 reps at max intensity but do them a few times a week mixed in with other sessions or perhaps as short stand alone sessions in the morning. Maybe then after a while I'll be able to cope better with Revolver in all its glory.Yesterday I felt that 16 reps was excessive and counterproductive

    Smart thinking or do I need to MTFU (I'm perfectly happy to do this) and accept the fact that anerobic sessions smash the hell out of you for a couple of days but make you stronger overal?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by grawp View Post
    Just starting to build in anerobic reps into my training (Friel - build period).

    Smart thinking or do I need to MTFU (I'm perfectly happy to do this) and accept the fact that anerobic sessions smash the hell out of you for a couple of days but make you stronger overal?
    Some plans have you start with 3 minute intervals with 3 minutes of rest between. Two sets of 3 intervals. This is after you've done a few sessions of 10 minute intervals closer to LT.

    To be able to finish the 3 minutes and the sets without fading, you can't go 100% all out at the gun. Its the longest 3 minutes of your life and you put up huge heart rate numbers after a couple of them. I gagged on one of them.

    I think 16 one minute intervals would be even more brutal.

    My two cents is to start with longer intervals before you hit a full session of the one minute type. I like your idea of throwing in a few into another longer session.

    No matter what the plans say, your body is telling you that what you did was too much too soon.

  3. #3
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    Cheers for the reply crashtoomuch. It's good to get other peoples perspectives, helps me think clearer.

    Just to add some background, I'm really happy at around LT threshold, I can tolerate the pain and even kind of enjoy it I do a lot of LT type training because of this. Down to about 4 min intervals I'm ok as they are still leg pain related. I'm a strong climber and like nothing better than the dream induced state a good long effort causes.

    What I hate is short efforts that cause me to start gasping for air and the related nausea. However it's time to stop avoiding them as It's a definate identifiable weakness.

    I've got to do these short intervals, 1min, 30s, 12s. Question is little and often or more reps per session, then rest for longer.

    Other question on my mind is you often read 'if you don't puke then you're not going hard enough' etc. Is this really the way of modern, progressive training or just a relic from the old school?

  4. #4
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    first you said you were trying to follow freil's plan (im assuming modifying his workouts with sufferfest videos), but having his mtb training bible and cyclist training bible none of his workouts even come close to recommending that type of effort.

    If you did want to do that sort of workout, I would recomend splitting those 16 intervals up into a 4X4 where you do 1min on 1min off four times, then take 5 min rest then hit another set of 4 on 4 off.

    16 straight just seems ludicrous and as you said counterproductive as your power had to be almost nothing after 10 (or even 5)

  5. #5
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    As the previous poster suggested, try increasing your work/rest ratio to something that is more manageable for you.

    The first step would be to increase the rest time between sets - enabling the required intensity of the session to be achieved - then steadily decreasing the rest interval as you move closer to your competition dates.

    Provided that you completed your base training correctly, this approach may also help with your ability to sustain race-specific power.

    Regarding the post-session nausea, that might be a product of an inadequate warm-up or cool down, fatigue, or even a poor hydration strategy.

    Or maybe you can just really, really push yourself!!
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  6. #6
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    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by grawp View Post
    Just starting to build in anerobic reps into my training (Friel - build period).

    Did The Sufferfest - Revolver last night which is 16 x 1min max efforts with 1 min rests. Heart rate went to zone 5c (Friel) each rep and the whole thing was pretty darn brutal.
    By the end I was weak and had to lie down for 20mins to cope with the nausea! After that I perked up and ate a hearty meal. However I slept badly last night and feel properly tired today with a bit of a headache.

    My reaction to this is to rest for a couple of days then add these sessions back into the mix but do only say 6 reps at max intensity but do them a few times a week mixed in with other sessions or perhaps as short stand alone sessions in the morning. Maybe then after a while I'll be able to cope better with Revolver in all its glory.Yesterday I felt that 16 reps was excessive and counterproductive

    Smart thinking or do I need to MTFU (I'm perfectly happy to do this) and accept the fact that anaerobic sessions smash the hell out of you for a couple of days but make you stronger overal?
    You are going by heart rate - for 1m efforts heart rate will not respond fast enough.

    Joe Friel - Again the Pacing Thing

    1m on, 1m off x16 are not max effort. Max effort would be 1m @ max with 4-5 min recovery. Probably about 125% of your lactate threshold power.
    Are you in build 2?
    What length / quantity of cruise intervals did you work up to?
    Where do you live at that your race season is starting so early?
    Last edited by scottz123; 01-23-2013 at 06:18 PM.

  7. #7
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    Thanks guys this is great.

    Loosly following Friels plan. Using Sufferfests quite a bit because the weather is horrible at the moment, later on in the year I'll be able to do my own intervals outside.
    Spring series starts on Feb 17th! 4 races, each 2 weeks apart. Then I'll have a rest, do lots of fun riding and start looking for some summer goals.

  8. #8
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    going straight from no L6 work into 16min of L6 work is plain nuts, and your body told you so.

    You'd be far better doing shorter efforts, and fewer too. something like 2 sets of 4-8x 30sec would be enough.

    What you need to keep in mind is working such efforts with short recovery isnt targeting your anaerobic glycolitic system the best you could. Its an aerobic workout.

  9. #9
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    Think I trusted the 'Fest a little too much. I'll try again but smarter this time.

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by grawp View Post

    My reaction to this is to rest for a couple of days
    Intensity can be important, but time on the bike is more important. What you're doing is not a good trade off. IMO.

    It's definitely tricky timing intensity to reach peak performance for key events. L6 stuff is good for just a couple weeks before and during peak.
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  12. #12
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    I Agree...

    Quote Originally Posted by Poncharelli View Post
    Intensity can be important, but time on the bike is more important. What you're doing is not a good trade off. IMO.

    It's definitely tricky timing intensity to reach peak performance for key events. L6 stuff is good for just a couple weeks before and during peak.
    quote per:
    Effects of Moderate-Intensity Endurance and High-Intensity Intermitten Training on Anaerobic Capacity and VO2 Max - Research Review | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

    Interestingly, the running coach Arthur Lydiard made this observation half a century ago; after months of base training, he found that only 3 weeks of interval work were necessary to sharpen his athletes. More than that was neither necessary nor desirable. Other studies using cycling have found similar results: intervals improve certain parameters of athletic performance for about 3 weeks or 6 sessions and then they stop having any further benefit.

  13. #13
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    I've done revolver - I would say it's not possible for most people to truly do 15 x 1:00 full out sprints. What I do is I just try to get myself to that fine line where I'm pushing hard enough that I'm in serious discomfort and try to hold it for the 1:00. At the same time knowing that if I had to all of a sudden do a 10 - 20 sec. speed/power increase I would have a little left to do that. On the suffer scale I'm really doing 9/10 or so, 15 times.

    You could try a few things that I think would work. Do the 1st interval at about 8.0 - 8.5, think of it as kind of a hard warm-up to the intervals. The 2nd interval go harder. Then just alternate. You might have to take a few intervals where you go 8 for the first part of the 1:00 and finish the last 10 - 30 secs at 9 or 10 effort.

    From everything I've read over the last 5+ years about training in general, not just cycling. It's rarely beneficial going until you puke and I throw the "rarely" in there because I've never read anything that shows it is ever beneficial. You can push yourself hard without puking, everytime I do sufferfest I'm in physical and mental discomfort. But I never put myself at the point beyond that, in that going to hurl/puke stage. After 2 - 3 weeks or more of hard training my ability to handle discomfort increases, I'm then pushing harder/faster/etc. at a higher level in order to experience that same discomfort. That is smart, effective, and long-term beneficial training. Going to the point of exertion where you are puking is literally hurting your body and actually sets you back in your training. Your body needs longer to recover, it's almost like your muscles having the flu.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qdawgg View Post
    I've done revolver - I would say it's not possible for most people to truly do 15 x 1:00 full out sprints. .
    Nobody can do 1m all out x15 w/ 1m recovery between

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottz123 View Post
    Nobody can do 1m all out x15 w/ 1m recovery between
    I would have said that but I figured if I dealt in absolutes somebody was bound to tell me I was wrong and they can do 15 x 1:00 all out But I agree, not possible.

    I also don't believe the video thinks you can go all out for 15 x 1:00. I think the point is is to just increase your level as much as you can maintain for that 1 mins. It might be all out for 10 secs followed by a slight slowing down but still at a very difficult level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qdawgg View Post
    I would have said that but I figured if I dealt in absolutes somebody was bound to tell me I was wrong and they can do 15 x 1:00 all out But I agree, not possible.

    I also don't believe the video thinks you can go all out for 15 x 1:00. I think the point is is to just increase your level as much as you can maintain for that 1 mins. It might be all out for 10 secs followed by a slight slowing down but still at a very difficult level.
    Yes, I agree.

    People get
    "anaerobic power" - amount of power (all out effort) you can make in an anaerobic state (which would take 5-10mins to recover) confused with
    "anaerobic endurance/capacity" - rough definition being amount of efforts you can repeat

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  17. #17
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    I did 7* 30sec max/2min30 rest efforts this morning and could hardly ride home. 16 * 1min/1min efforts is a waste of time because you cannot recover. If you do each effort truly at 100% no way do you need (or can do) that many efforts regardless of rest interval.

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