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  1. #601
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    Well they are all built up, tensioned, pinged, dished and trued.

    WTB Frequency i23 AM wheelset: alternative to Flow rims-20150131_010940.jpg

    Hubs: Shimano M9010 32h
    WTB Frequency i23 AM wheelset: alternative to Flow rims-20150131_011118.jpg
    Rim: WTB KOM i23 650b
    Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray 274/276
    Nipples: Sapim Polyax Hex aluminium alloy gold anodized 12mm
    WTB Frequency i23 AM wheelset: alternative to Flow rims-20150131_011156.jpg
    Weight:1570g
    Tensions F:115/75kgf +/-4kgf
    Tensions R:118/65kgf +/-4kgf

    Now what about that silly idea of using a guitar tuner app.

    Turns out it isn't so easy. A wave form captured from the mic mid-ping has many harmonics. Drive side had peaks starting just above 500hz, as predicted, but something around 700hz seems to be the lowest dominant mode:
    WTB Frequency i23 AM wheelset: alternative to Flow rims-screenshots_2015-01-31-01-04-46.jpg

    vs. Non drive side where the picture is a lot less clear
    WTB Frequency i23 AM wheelset: alternative to Flow rims-screenshots_2015-01-31-01-05-14.jpg

    It was possible to use the tuner app functionality on the drive side, but it seemed to like picking up that 735hz peak. That'll be F5#. My theory is that the resonance is from the 3rd interlaced cross out to the rim (i.e. shorter than the whole spoke length).
    WTB Frequency i23 AM wheelset: alternative to Flow rims-screenshots_2015-01-31-01-01-34.jpg

    The spectral capture over a period of time with several pings and then letting it ring out. Just after the pluck, there are a mess of frequencies. Ringing out, that F5# rings true.
    WTB Frequency i23 AM wheelset: alternative to Flow rims-screenshots_2015-01-31-01-26-35.jpg

    On the non-drive side, that ringing resonance was much less clear. With some luck involved I managed to get this picture and a D#. Didn't bother clarifying which octave and frequency. It was too unreliable and unrepeatable.
    WTB Frequency i23 AM wheelset: alternative to Flow rims-screenshots_2015-01-31-01-27-12.jpg

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    Hubs: Shimano M9010 32h
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20150131_011118.jpg 
Views:	298 
Size:	105.7 KB 
ID:	960166
    Rim: WTB KOM i23 650b
    Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray 274/276
    Something doesn't look quite right in this photo. I notice that the spoke heads aren't sitting anywhere close to flush against the face of the hub flanges, this is something I've rarely seen on any Shimano hub, and never before on the higher end ones. This is a problem, when the spoke heads aren't fully seated it creates stress risers in the spoke elbow/head which results in premature spoke failures as well as fretting wear to the spoke holes in the flange.

    Hard to say why the spoke heads aren't sitting flush, my first guess would be that the spokes were made for a hub with a much thicker flange. Either that or they over bent the elbows* such that they don't pull & seat themselves in the hub flanges when the spokes are laced & tensioned.

    *the included angle on a spoke is IIRC around 105°, not 90°. This is done to help preload the spoke head against the flange seat when the spoke is laced through and brought up to tension.

  3. #603
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    Independently of aerius, I wanted to point out the same detail when I saw laced hub close-up. Haven't had 9010 hubs on my hands yet though.
    26" rigid SS 4130 BB7 nylon-flats ESI latex-tubes non-lubricated-8spd

  4. #604
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    WTB Frequency i23 AM wheelset: alternative to Flow rims

    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Something doesn't look quite right in this photo. I notice that the spoke heads aren't sitting anywhere close to flush against the face of the hub flanges,

    my first guess would be that the spokes were made for a hub with a much thicker flange.
    This is incredibly useful feedback and something I missed completely (I'd like to claim distraction, but probably a blind spot). Cx-rays are made in two j-bend sizes. I wonder if I've been supplied with the larger one. I bought two spare spokes for each size so I've got some off the wheels to examine. I think I've also got an unused hub sitting around to do some trial fitting.

    I've been building wheels for myself for 28 years since buying the Jobst Brandt book and never had a premature spoke breakage problem and don't want to start now.

  5. #605
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    Well, I think I found the problem.
    DT aerolite vs. Sapim CX-Ray - Weight Weenies (about 1/3 of way down the page)

    Looks like the CX-Rays have a significantly longer elbow section compared to DT's spokes.
    That would explain why they don't fit properly in your hubs.

  6. #606
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    Hmm I have never had CX-Rays protrude so much out of whatever hubs I laced them to, mostly various versions of DT 240s, but also Hope, True Precision, Tune, some older Shimano XTR, and some Taiwanese cartridge bearing hubs. However I use a spoke punch to persuade spoke heads to sit as flush as possible in the flange.

    The only wheel of those that had CX-Rays break was: (1) not initially built by me and brought to me for rebuild, because spokes started to break, but I had to use the same fatigued spokes plus 2 new ones, (2) had 28 spokes, (3) was a rear wheel with upper rider weight limit of 90 kg (DT 4.2d), ridden by a strong 95kg guy. All spoke breakages in it were at the bends on brake rotor side.


    I have only ever used spoke head washers to build wheels around e-bike motor hubs with especially big spoke holes (as huge as 4.1 mm in one case. It was intended for motorcycle spokes I guess but customer wanted it laced to bicycle rim and I used a stack of various brass washers with success), or around steel bodied hubs. Never used a CX-Ray in such wheels of course.
    26" rigid SS 4130 BB7 nylon-flats ESI latex-tubes non-lubricated-8spd

  7. #607
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    While not discounting that the spoke heads protrude on this build, I've looked at it a bit more closely. I think in large part the original photo looks a lot worse than it is because of an optical illusion. The angle of the lighting is projecting a significant oblique shadow from the visible spoke head.

    I've gone back and examined that spoke and it is seated quite adequately. The chamfers do appear to be relatively shallow but close to the same seating position is shown from the spare spoke tested in a spare hub. There is no significant variation for any of the spokes. I did observe tbe "Bicycle Wheel" procedure for adjusting the spoke line.

    At this point my instinct is to put those wheels into service. If I get premature spoke breakage it will be a first for me and I'll learn something from the experience. I assure you the picture/lighting is misleading.
    Last edited by petercarm; 01-31-2015 at 07:09 PM.

  8. #608
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    Just got a new freq i23 650b from CRC today, to replace a dented rear Kom i23. Kom is not strong enough for me, I will keep it front but switch to i23 freq rear.
    The 2015 frequency is quite different from the one I had in 2013, way better finish:
    shot peened instead of glossy, much better 4D drilling (no burrs), it seems that even the profile is a little bit different (bulge is more visible).
    I do not have weigth/ERD yet. I hope that I can keep one set of spokes at least, to minimize cost from switching rims.

  9. #609
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    I checked ERD and weight:

    480g (in line with WTB specs of 478g), ERD is wider at 563/564, which is good for me as it's very close with KOM (measured at 564/565 on mine).

    Profile has indeed changed from 2013 model, more rounded on the top, with bulge more visible.

  10. #610
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    I'm not sure that this is right place to ask this question, but as it is related to i23 rims I'm going to ask it anyway

    I have 26" i23/i25 front/rear rims running with tubes and Schwalbe Hans Dampf Performance (non tubeless) tire. I want to go tubeless now.

    After lots of searching and reading this is what I concluded.

    1. Can I use stan's sealant with my current non UST/tubeless tires and go tubeless?
    2. If I go with UST/tubeless tires, do I still need to use stan's sealant?

    thanx.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by boardreader View Post
    I'm not sure that this is right place to ask this question, but as it is related to i23 rims I'm going to ask it anyway

    I have 26" i23/i25 front/rear rims running with tubes and Schwalbe Hans Dampf Performance (non tubeless) tire. I want to go tubeless now.

    After lots of searching and reading this is what I concluded.

    1. Can I use stan's sealant with my current non UST/tubeless tires and go tubeless?
    2. If I go with UST/tubeless tires, do I still need to use stan's sealant?

    thanx.
    Reading Schwalbe's web site it looks like the "Performance" moniker relates to the quality level (single rubber make up instead of something with different rubber hardness in different parts of the tire) not the engineering of the bead.

    Absent some sort of authoritative ruleing on the bead shape, your best bet is just to try it. The WTB rims will typically give you a couple of very strong "pops" as the bead seats when you inflate which is a good sign. Also, when you let all the air out they will tend to hold on to the bead without the pressure. Typically you'll have to go along and press the bead out of the rim seat with your thumbs. IIWY, I'd pull out the tubes, tape the rim, put in a tubeless valve, soap it up, and inflate it. If it does what I described above you should be good to go. It probably wont hold air long term without a sealant in it, but as a test it should work.

    "Technically" you don't need a sealant with a UST system tire and bead. Practically, a sealant gives you thorn protection, helps glue the tire to the rim, and will be overall much more reliable. With your old tire you almost certainly will need a sealant. There are probably thorn holes and scuffs on the tire that don't matter with a tube but will need to be sealed if you use the tire tubeless.

    Stan's is one product. Orange Seal is another that is well regarded. There's a whole thread here somewhere on how to make your own at a fraction of the cost of the commercial stuff. Search for "homebrew".

  12. #612
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    Thanks for your detailed reply

    These tires bead so well that it is really hard to remove from rim when I need to. They are almost glued to the rim.

    By soap do you mean soapy water or liquid soap on the surface of the tire?

    P.S. Schwalbe's performance line of tires are not tubeless "ready"

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by boardreader View Post
    I'm not sure that this is right place to ask this question, but as it is related to i23 rims I'm going to ask it anyway

    I have 26" i23/i25 front/rear rims running with tubes and Schwalbe Hans Dampf Performance (non tubeless) tire. I want to go tubeless now.

    After lots of searching and reading this is what I concluded.

    1. Can I use stan's sealant with my current non UST/tubeless tires and go tubeless?
    2. If I go with UST/tubeless tires, do I still need to use stan's sealant?

    thanx.
    I agree just try it. Lots of people use non tubeless ready tires to go tubeless. It works better with some than with others.

    Also note that there are tubeless ready tires which are different than UST. Tubeless ready need the sealant to help hold the air and UST have an impermeable inner liner and don't need sealant. UST tires are much heavier.

  14. #614
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    I23 are such a good rim design.
    I run mine tubeless with stans.
    Great seal mine held air without sealant. They never burp either.
    I'm using max is dhr2/dhf
    " I don't ride park"

  15. #615
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    Boardreader, I think the best answer is to stick with "tubeless ready" tires, I.E. tires that have a UST bead but a normal sidewall-no worries about the bead failing, and lighter than full UST. Some regular tires work well tubeless with sealant, some dont, its kinda random. Ive tried some on the back but never on the front. Do you really want to find out your front tire doesnt work tubeless (pulls off the rim) when youre going fast downhill?
    '14 rocky mountain altitude, rally edition
    '11 transition blindside, 650b converted

  16. #616
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    1. The WTB Frequency rims have a tubeless ready rim bead seat. It is designed for tires with a tubeless tire bead, which is squared off in section and is designed to "lock" in to the space formed by the ridge in the rim. The beads of tires not tubeless ready may have varying beads. It is best to use tubeless ready tires with these rims, otherwise you are taking a chance on discovering an incompatibility between your tires and rims. If you want to take that chance, it's your choice.

    2. Tubeless sealant seals any gaps between the bead and the rim, between the rim tape and the rim, and between the valve stem seal and the valve stem hole in the rim. You can try running without it, but you may need it to get a good air tight seal. UST tires usually have an additional rubber inner layer, with additional weight, and may seal fine without sealant. If you are riding anywhere there are thorns or other items that can penetrate the tire, sealant may prevent air loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by boardreader View Post
    I'm not sure that this is right place to ask this question, but as it is related to i23 rims I'm going to ask it anyway

    I have 26" i23/i25 front/rear rims running with tubes and Schwalbe Hans Dampf Performance (non tubeless) tire. I want to go tubeless now.

    After lots of searching and reading this is what I concluded.

    1. Can I use stan's sealant with my current non UST/tubeless tires and go tubeless?
    2. If I go with UST/tubeless tires, do I still need to use stan's sealant?

    thanx.
    Hey everybody, ride my wheels! They ride good, real good.
    I'm a wheel builder. SRLPE Wheel Works. Send me a PM.

  17. #617
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    The heavier, "true UST" tires that can run without sealant are not easily found these days. Every manufacturer seems to have assumed that every tubeless rider would use sealant in either case, so they started to cut serious weight by only making tires that rely on the stuff to work.

    Looks like Maxxis still has some LUST (their name for "true UST") tires in their lineup though.
    26" rigid SS 4130 BB7 nylon-flats ESI latex-tubes non-lubricated-8spd

  18. #618
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    Having done a few thousand miles with standard Contis on I25s I'd take the chance with what you have if they seem to fit well starting at higher pressures.

  19. #619
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    Thanks everybody.

    I'm going to try run my tires tubeless anyway.
    Will 28mm rim tape be ok for both i23/i25 rims?

  20. #620
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    Yup
    " I don't ride park"

  21. #621
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    Should be good, I use 29mm on i23, covers from bead to bead so no leak at the joint.

  22. #622
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    Thinking about changing my arch ex rims to some Frequency I23 or kom rims.
    I am a bit undecided which ones to get.
    I would really like to get a light set of wheels.
    At this moment the wheels are with 1700grs (arch ex + dt 240s hubs + dt swiss spokes).

    I am using this wheels to do everything.
    From enduro rides to races.
    I have even done with this wheels the mega avalanche and some bikepark action.

    So will the kom resist to the abuse? or it is better to go with the frequency?

  23. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by komondor View Post
    Thinking about changing my arch ex rims to some Frequency I23 or kom rims.
    I am a bit undecided which ones to get.
    I would really like to get a light set of wheels.
    At this moment the wheels are with 1700grs (arch ex + dt 240s hubs + dt swiss spokes).

    I am using this wheels to do everything.
    From enduro rides to races.
    I have even done with this wheels the mega avalanche and some bikepark action.

    So will the kom resist to the abuse? or it is better to go with the frequency?
    KOM front, Frequency Team rear

  24. #624
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    The KOM is designed for XC racing. From the way you are describing your riding style, I would recommend the Frequency i23 rims, front and back. You're not going to get a lighter weight durable wheel set unless you switch to carbon rims. It would be better to have a light weight set for XC racing, if that is what you are doing, and a durable set for everything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by komondor View Post
    Thinking about changing my arch ex rims to some Frequency I23 or kom rims.
    I am a bit undecided which ones to get.
    I would really like to get a light set of wheels.
    At this moment the wheels are with 1700grs (arch ex + dt 240s hubs + dt swiss spokes).

    I am using this wheels to do everything.
    From enduro rides to races.
    I have even done with this wheels the mega avalanche and some bikepark action.

    So will the kom resist to the abuse? or it is better to go with the frequency?
    Hey everybody, ride my wheels! They ride good, real good.
    I'm a wheel builder. SRLPE Wheel Works. Send me a PM.

  25. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4slomo View Post
    The KOM is designed for XC racing. From the way you are describing your riding style, I would recommend the Frequency i23 rims, front and back. You're not going to get a lighter weight durable wheel set unless you switch to carbon rims. It would be better to have a light weight set for XC racing, if that is what you are doing, and a durable set for everything else.
    But if he is happy with Arches, wouldn't the KOMs be comparable?

  26. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by komondor View Post
    Thinking about changing my arch ex rims to some Frequency I23 or kom rims.
    I am a bit undecided which ones to get.
    I would really like to get a light set of wheels.
    At this moment the wheels are with 1700grs (arch ex + dt 240s hubs + dt swiss spokes).

    I am using this wheels to do everything.
    From enduro rides to races.
    I have even done with this wheels the mega avalanche and some bikepark action.

    So will the kom resist to the abuse? or it is better to go with the frequency?
    Why? What's wrong with the Arches, and what do you hope to gain? More strength or less weight?

  27. #627
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    Yes I like the arch ex rims but need to change them.
    They can get center after 1 year of use and are starting to demonstrate the use and abuse. In the store they strongly recommend changing them.

    I would hope to get a good mix of weight (if I could drop would be perfect) and strength.

    That is my main doubt. If the Kom are similar to the arch ex would it not be enough?

    I am not the most brutal on wheels, but I do not want to get 2 set of wheels.
    I like to arrive and ride. Not bordering with changing wheels.

  28. #628
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    WTB i23 frequency race with Hope evo 2 and Prowheelbuilder spokes.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails WTB Frequency i23 AM wheelset: alternative to Flow rims-20150917_214948_resized.jpg  

    WTB Frequency i23 AM wheelset: alternative to Flow rims-20150917_150508.jpg  


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