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  1. #51
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    Re: Wheelbuilding resources

    Quote Originally Posted by aizu1 View Post
    Would it be possible to replace a rim with an ERD of 599mm with new rim with an ERD of 595mm using the same spokes? Maybe by using longer nipples?
    No. You need shorter spokes.
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  2. #52
    GoCyco
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    Thanks Shiggy. I was thinking the other way. So my spokes are 4mm too long. That doesn't seem so much but I guess I need lots of thread to have a strong wheel.

  3. #53
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    Re: Wheelbuilding resources

    Quote Originally Posted by aizu1 View Post
    Thanks Shiggy. I was thinking the other way. So my spokes are 4mm too long. That doesn't seem so much but I guess I need lots of thread to have a strong wheel.
    Ummmmm...no. You still need to learn a lot about wheelbuilding.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by aizu1 View Post
    Thanks Shiggy. I was thinking the other way. So my spokes are 4mm too long. That doesn't seem so much but I guess I need lots of thread to have a strong wheel.
    You'd have spokes that are 2mm too long. 1mm you MIGHT be able to work with. 2mm no unless the threads were barely engaged to begin with on the stock build which is never the case.
    GTA
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  5. #55
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    this may have been discussed, but... what is the 'subjective' indicator that you've tensioned the spokes correctly? is there something audible (creaks) or visual (spoke twist).

    (sort of like knowing that you've tightened a nut/bolt correctly without a torque wrench)

    i'm relying on the fact that old school wheel builders didn't have any tension gauges nor any objective (numerical) means of measurement of any sort.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyghost View Post
    this may have been discussed, but... what is the 'subjective' indicator that you've tensioned the spokes correctly? is there something audible (creaks) or visual (spoke twist).
    (sort of like knowing that you've tightened a nut/bolt correctly without a torque wrench)
    i'm relying on the fact that old school wheel builders didn't have any tension gauges nor any objective (numerical) means of measurement of any sort.
    Just like in the auto trade - tighten until something breaks and then back off a 1/4 turn.

    But seriously, there really is no indicator other than gut feeling. And it does work as I built wheels for half a century without a tension meter and none failed from not measuring tensions. But what's more important than exact tension is equal tension and that's easy to determine - by plucking spokes and listening to their tones. Equal tone = equal tension, if you're just checking spokes on one side of the wheel and comparing to each other (NDS and DS spokes have different tensions of course).

    Then, two months ago, I obtained a tension meter (the excellent Wheel Fanatyk Digital Tensiometer and I found that all my wheel tensions were on the low side ~ around 95kgf where (depending on the rim) 100-125kgf is the normal range. But - my previous tensions must have been acceptable as my wheels didn't suffer from the normal problems of low tension - loosening nipples and fatiguing spoke elbows.

    And I also proved that obtaining equal tension by plucking and equalizing tones is just as accurate as this digital tensiometer - for me anyway but then I've got lots of practise.
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilders with information and motivation.

  7. #57
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    Thanks Mike.

    I'm used to twisting relatively high torque threads since I've worked on cars before. Perhaps this disrupted my perception of low torque threads.

    I'm just waiting for the arrival of my wheelsmith spokes and I'll be building my 29er. 36h ztr flow ex and hope pro 2 evo.

    I've got no issues with lacing, truing, etc. Just hitting the right tension.

    Anyway we'll see. Hope for the best wish me luck.
    -------------------------

    @Mike a few q's regarding your site about stress relieving:

    - when you say 'you've got a fair amount of tension, when is that?
    - is that the baseline true or something else after that?
    - is that the point where i loose the arcs formed by the intial lacing after the baseline true?
    - coming from this 'fair amount' of tension, approx how many turns is that away from the 'correct/ideal' tension?
    - i reckon method 1 and method 4 should be done at the same time?
    - when do i do method 3?
    - when do i know that i've properly stress relieved the wheel? i tried method 2 on several wheels. they do sound, but i think the sound comes from the friction between the crosses.

    for method 1 - by tapping the j bend flatter, do you mean pushing the spoke to sort of 'pinch' the flange between the spoke head and the j bend itself?
    Last edited by spyghost; 02-10-2015 at 11:54 PM.

  8. #58
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    Wheelbuilding resources

    If you have a tone generator or tuner handy, you can often get a sense of the tension on the wheel, provided you also have an idea for what octave you are listening for. See http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm. Note that this only really works well for straight gauge spokes (see below).

    The bad part is, if you have no experience tuning instruments, you can be easily mislead by false beating; this happens for a few reasons, but the short answer is that spokes aren't built to be good tone conductors, especially butted spokes.

    I've built a couple pairs of wheels like this, mostly as a curiosity, and it does work. Certainly not as convenient as a tensometer, but a careful ear can do pretty close.

  9. #59
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    Added a video link to the first post on Wheel Truing.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Added a video link to the first post on Wheel Truing.
    Can you please clear out any broken links? Thanks.
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilders with information and motivation.

  11. #61
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    Hi guys

    I'm having a problem with one of my first build..

    on my rear wheel, when I want the left side tight enough, it's very hard to get the wheel dished without having the drive side extremely tight.

    Is that a problem of spoke length ?

    all spokes have the same length, 266mm

    Light bicycle carbon rims
    DT 350 disc
    Sapim D-light j-bend

    I know that the spokes are a bit too short as I ordered the spokes before having the rims in hands... and LB erd is wrong by 3mm

    I just think that is strange, because difference between both sides is big

    Thanks !

  12. #62
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    hate to tell you this, but it would be impossible to get the correct spokes without first having the rims.
    Because you can't know the rims ERD until you measure them, and I wouldn't go by the manufactures listed ERD, they are known to be off.
    2nd, you mention Disc. Well if you want to take into account the Rotor, then you need to calculate the dish even for a front hub, and the lacing pattern to support the Rotor.
    You didn't mention if this is a front or rear wheel.
    And I question all the spokes with the same length then on a Disc wheel sounds wrong.

    I started with Jost Brandt's Wheel building book, which is dated now. I have since used Roger Musson's which is more current and covers Disc wheels. It's about $15 for the PDF. And you can print out the pages that cover your needs, put them on a clip board to follow out in the shop.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by kali View Post
    I'm having a problem with one of my first build..
    on my rear wheel, when I want the left side tight enough, it's very hard to get the wheel dished without having the drive side extremely tight.
    NDS spoke tension is always a product of DS tension and flange spacing, not the other way around. You get DS tension to what you want it to be, dish the wheel and NDS tension will be what it is.

    Example - you want DS tension to be 120kgf. You tension to 120kgf, check and adjust dish and NDS tension will end up around 60kgf, or approx, depending on flange spacing.

    Is that a problem of spoke length ?
    Nope. It's a problem from back-arsewards tensioning.

    all spokes have the same length, 266mm. I know that the spokes are a bit too short as I ordered the spokes before having the rims in hands... and LB erd is wrong by 3mm
    You can't mess around here. Spokes have to be the right length and you have a +/-1mm fudge factor. Parts need measuring before spokes are ordered or there is a big chance they will be wrong.
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilders with information and motivation.

  14. #64
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    you must have just written your reply right after me. Just want to say if you're going to be an advocate to newbies, you may want to direct them to resources or given a simpler explanation than going into tension. Look at my post and let me know if you agree with it.
    BTW: I agree with your point, but the builder it seems is missing the whole point about measuring parts out correctly to begin with. That is why I mention ERD, Disc hubs, and the dish. Let them first get that correct and get the wheel straight before they have to worry about the finished product and tension.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberwil View Post
    you must have just written your reply right after me. Just want to say if you're going to be an advocate to newbies, you may want to direct them to resources or given a simpler explanation than going into tension.
    At the top of this forum is a wheelbuilding stickie with lots of resources plus, the link in my sig takes you to my wheelbuilding site - which contains all the info and resources (that are put there to provide the info that my site never will) that anyone will ever need. If a newby wheelbuilder is planning on building wheels, they need info first, build second, not the other way around. Horse before cart.

    EDIT - we're even posting in the wheelbuilding resources stickie.
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilders with information and motivation.

  16. #66
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    Mike, your suggestions and resources have been invaluable to this neophyte wheel-builder. Over the past couple of years I have built 3 wheel sets using the information you have provided here. Thank you for all the time you put into this forum.

    As you point out, the research has to be done first, impatience cause me to have to re-order spokes, and re-build my first set several times before I sat back and took a more patient and disciplined approach.Wheelbuilding resources-wheelbuilding-square-copy.jpg
    Last edited by ki5ka; 12-24-2015 at 07:02 AM. Reason: add pic

  17. #67
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    Thanks Ki5. I just does my best. Nice pic BTW.
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilders with information and motivation.

  18. #68
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    Thanks for the very quick and precise answers ! ;-)

    So I can't do better than I did, I just wanted to have the NDS thighter, but it's fine.

    What is the usual difference in kgf between both sides ?
    "back-arsewards tensioning" Sorry my english is not good enough to understand that, what do you mean ?

    Of course I know that spoke length is crucial, that was my first wheelset I wanted to get better. As a matter of fact the ERD is not 3mm wrong, but 1.6mm, because I wanted to mount bushings wich I did not go for. So they are slightly too short. That is experience... and now I always await components to calculate spoke length.

    What do you think about 180kgf light bicycle give as max spoke tension ?
    the rim has 3mm of carbon thinkness

    thanks and merry Christmas

    Olivier from Switzerland

    edit : I went for that technique, that's brillant
    Wheel Building Tip No. 6 - Build Rears from Right to Left - Wheel Fanatyk

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by kali View Post
    Thanks for the very quick and precise answers ! ;-)
    No problem.

    What is the usual difference in kgf between both sides ?
    That totally depends on the hub flange spacing away from the center line and the flanges' widths apart.

    "back-arsewards tensioning" Sorry my english is not good enough to understand that, what o you mean ?
    It means you did it backwards. Required DS tension should be achieved and the NDS tension will be what it is when you have the correct dish. It doesn't matter what it is as you can't change it - other than by increasing DS tension and there is only so high that you can go.

    Of course I know that spoke length is crucial, that was my first wheelset I wanted to get better. As a matter of fact the ERD is not 3mm wrong, but 1.7mm, because I wanted to mount bushings wich I did not go for. So they are slightly too short. That is experience... and now I always await components to calculate spoke length.
    New wheelbuilders need to have everything as perfect as possible to lessen any problems.

    What o you think about 180kgf light bicycle give as max spoke tension ? the rim has 3mm of thinknesse
    That's a very high tension but I don't know anything about those rims. The rim is the weak link.

    Olivier from Switzerland
    Mike in Canada!
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilders with information and motivation.

  20. #70
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  21. #71
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    Props to Mike T! I used his site set a wheel next to my build and fired out my first complete wheel last night. Took me about 1-1.5 hours to build and came out with no hop and just a tiny bit of run out I'll fix when I got to my friends house with a stand.

    I probably should have started with something else but I needed to build these. Industry9 hubs, Sapim Race/Polyax and 295trails.
    I like to fart when I'm in front of you on a climb

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider76 View Post
    Props to Mike T! I used his site set a wheel next to my build and fired out my first complete wheel last night. Took me about 1-1.5 hours to build and came out with no hop and just a tiny bit of run out I'll fix when I got to my friends house with a stand.
    I probably should have started with something else but I needed to build these. Industry9 hubs, Sapim Race/Polyax and 295trails.
    Cool! Glad to be of some service. I hope you didn't rush with that "1-1.5 hours to build" as that's a very short time for a first-time wheel. It takes me longer than that (and I'm never in a hurry). Don't forget oodles of stress relief. You can never do too much.
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilders with information and motivation.

  23. #73
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    I've swapped rims before just never built from scratch. I just got them with some tension on them till I get access to the truing stand. I was not in a hurry I just laid out all my stuff and once I had the first side done it went fast. Getting the actual layout and getting the logo on the hub lined up with the valve hole and making sure the logo on the rim was correct took some time. I actually started the spokes, rotated the hub and it was off so I adjusted it.
    I like to fart when I'm in front of you on a climb

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider76 View Post
    I've swapped rims before just never built from scratch. I just got them with some tension on them till I get access to the truing stand. I was not in a hurry I just laid out all my stuff and once I had the first side done it went fast. Getting the actual layout and getting the logo on the hub lined up with the valve hole and making sure the logo on the rim was correct took some time. I actually started the spokes, rotated the hub and it was off so I adjusted it.
    Roger Musson's e-book gives the definitive info for lining up the valve hole and the logo. BTW - you already have a truing stand - your fork (or frame) !!
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilders with information and motivation.

  25. #75
    squish, squish in da fish
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    i used roger's e-book for my first go around and they came out real good.

  26. #76
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    i'm not a pro builder, just doing these for myself, but since i started building several months back, i just realized that after a hard day's work in the office desk, wheel building/truing is relaxing.

    the wheel turning on the the truing stand, the sound of the spokes getting higher and equal pitch as the rim gets closer to the gauge soothes me.

    the plus factor here is that it feels awesome once i get equal pitch and a radial/lateral true build.
    Canfield Yelli Screamy

  27. #77
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    I have all the parts on order to do my first solo (and disc) build. I built the wheels for my road bike at my old LBS with the lead mechanic there to give me guidance, but I had done lots of reading, to include Mike T's site before I got to work. I really enjoyed the experience, especially just getting in the zone when adding tension and how everything else just disappeared.

    My question as I start reading again for this build, is do I need a dishing tool before I get started? Being in the military and currently stationed overseas, mail order is my means of acquiring the parts and tools that I need, so time is required.

    I'll be building up a set of Nextie 42mm Crocodile rims with White Industries XMR plus hubs and double butted spokes. This is also my first carbon build. I'll keep doing my reading and research, but any advice is humbly accepted!

  28. #78
    nerd
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    Some less-known books

    Building Bicycle Wheels by Robert Wright, 1977

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    The Spoking Word by Leonard Goldberg, 1984
    Book review: Goldberg's Variations (Bike Tech, April 1985)

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    Perfect Wheel by Richard Talbot, 1986
    An Illustrated Guide to Bicycle Wheel Building
    Last edited by yoda.; 05-30-2016 at 07:06 AM. Reason: added book review

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