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  1. #1
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    Wheel lacing question

    Hi. I just had a new wheel trued at my LBS. The mechanic informed me that the wheel lacing was opposite of what is recommended. The inside spokes on the disc side are facing forward instead of to the rear. After I researched the issue and he appears to be correct. My question is, is this a big deal? The wheels are from a very popular and reputable builder and my first set of wheels from him lasted forever without needing a true, and they are laced the proper way. I have two new sets of wheels from him laced with the inside spokes facing forward.

    Thanks!
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  2. #2
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    In theory, since you have disc brake wheels, the "inside" spokes need to be "pulling" spokes during braking, meaning they would be stretched if you can visualize that. Grab a brake handle with one hand, and try to rotate the wheel forward with the other hand. Look at the spokes and you can probably tell which ones would be stretched while you are braking. In practice, it doesn't make much difference.
    Last edited by 4slomo; 08-29-2011 at 01:25 PM.
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  3. #3
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    It makes no difference.
    What is "recommended" depends on who you talk to.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    It makes no difference.
    What is "recommended" depends on who you talk to.
    Exactly...makes no structual difference despite each sides claims

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenglow View Post
    Hi. I just had a new wheel trued at my LBS. The mechanic informed me that the wheel lacing was opposite of what is recommended. The inside spokes on the disc side are facing forward instead of to the rear. After I researched the issue and he appears to be correct. My question is, is this a big deal? The wheels are from a very popular and reputable builder and my first set of wheels from him lasted forever without needing a true, and they are laced the proper way. I have two new sets of wheels from him laced with the inside spokes facing forward.

    Thanks!
    Does not matter. Ask 4 experts and you will get 6 answers about which way is best.
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  6. #6
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    Thanks

    Appreciate the good information.
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  7. #7
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    Agreed. This has been a topic of debate, often time acrimonious debate, among wheel builders for a long long time. While the theory seems sound, there is no "real world" evidence that one way is better than the other. I've had wheel sets that were lace both ways, both disc and rim brake, over the years, and all have lasted a long time and been trouble free.

    Like Shiggy said, ask 4 pro wheel builders about it and you'll get 6 different answers.

    It really don't matter!

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  8. #8
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    I, like Shigg and probably a few others here, have laced 'em both ways and the sky didn't fall. We know that they work perfectly well done either way. If someone informed me "that the wheel lacing was opposite of what is recommended" I'd question their knowledge of wheelbuilding.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    . If someone informed me "that the wheel lacing was opposite of what is recommended" I'd question their knowledge of wheelbuilding.
    I would not go that far.

    Shimano has a recommended lacing pattern on its hub tech sheet, so it can be a true statement. It is just that it does not really matter. Which THEN makes you question why it would be brought up.

    I have encountered a few A-R riders that read everything about their components and insist on having their wheels laced the Shimano way. I do not argue. Not worth bothering.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I would not go that far.

    Shimano has a recommended lacing pattern on its hub tech sheet, so it can be a true statement. It is just that it does not really matter. Which THEN makes you question why it would be brought up.

    I have encountered a few A-R riders that read everything about their components and insist on having their wheels laced the Shimano way. I do not argue. Not worth bothering.
    I just checked Shimano's rec'co, and it is inside spokes BACK on the front and left rear, inside forward on the rear driveside.

    http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830621150.PDF
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I would not go that far.

    Shimano has a recommended lacing pattern on its hub tech sheet, so it can be a true statement. It is just that it does not really matter. Which THEN makes you question why it would be brought up.

    I have encountered a few A-R riders that read everything about their components and insist on having their wheels laced the Shimano way. I do not argue. Not worth bothering.
    Shimano's rec only applies to Shimano hubs.
    I'm guessing he saw the "Chris King way" somewhere. That is, unless there's some confusion here about what is meant by "inside" spokes.
    I still have never seen even an attempt at any sort of logic or basis for the Shimano way. I have resolved to be OK with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  12. #12
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    Discussion much appreciated. I have always thought it didn't make much of a difference.

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  13. #13
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    It only makes a difference to me when Im starting the build, and have to make a decision... after the spokes are laced, it doesn't matter anymore

  14. #14
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    Old thread! Bumped because I just got an SLX and saw shimanos recommendations... has anyone heard a shimano rep explain why they suggest that? I cant imagine what their rationale is, but id like to hear it!

    I laced and relaced a shimano wheel both ways and noticed no difference in anything. Ive always laced stuff the sheldon brown way (DS opposite of what shimano says). Ive heard people say one way is stiffer, but my testing (with a super noodle rim) showed no difference.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Old thread! Bumped because I just got an SLX and saw shimanos recommendations... has anyone heard a shimano rep explain why they suggest that? I cant imagine what their rationale is, but id like to hear it!
    same story... still haven't heard anyone even attempt to rationalize the shimano way.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  16. #16
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    FWIW, I've laced a bunch of wheels ALL by the Sheldon Brown method... Shimano hubs, Hope Hubs, DT Swiss hubs...
    They all work fine. Including the first set I ever did on my Clyde bike.

    I didn't even know Shimano had a method.
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  17. #17
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    I think there's a theoretical explanation for the "Shimano lacing".

    The "inside spokes" are at a sharper angle, so theoretically they pass torque from the hub to the rim (and vice versa) differently. So on the drive side rear the spokes should be arranged to pass torque from the hub to the rim.
    When braking with disc or hub brakes, the direction of force is opposite. The front has no drive torque so it makes sense to lace the spokes considering the braking force only.

    Practically I don't think it matters.

  18. #18
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    I spent a good number of hours researching this topic. A number of hub manufacturers specify a bunch of different theories on the issue. Every wheel building guide or authority I've studied states that it's unimportant. The only exception I make is radially laced front road wheels. Outbound spoke heads make the wheel more aerodynamic, and inbound spoke heads make the wheel stiffer/stronger. I give my riders the option when I build their wheels. They all want the stiffer/stronger option.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    The "inside spokes" are at a sharper angle, so theoretically they pass torque from the hub to the rim (and vice versa) differently.
    Assuming this is true, there's a logical disconnect between "differently" and the Shimano way. You didn't connect the dots.
    Chris King states that their recommended lacing is based on the direction spoke crosses are pulled by torques (inward). Shimano lacing is such that all torques applied at the hubs pull spoke crosses outward.
    In unrelated news, the tech doc for XTR hubs says drive-side radial lacing is acceptable for the front wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    Practically I don't think it matters.
    With ya there.
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  20. #20
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    I fetched a couple of freshly built wheels to visualize it better. The rear wheel is symmetrical with freewheel threads on both sides, so only driving forces need to be concerned - the brakes are cantis so it won't affect lacing. Seems that I've laced it the opposite way compared to Shimano recommendation. Indeed, the crosses will move inwards under load, or if I flip it over, the crosses will move outward as the trailing spokes will be on the outside. Which way to go? I'll install it so that the hub texts can be read from the rear!

    As opposed to what I previously wrote, it's actually spokes from outside the flange that go to the rim at a sharper angle. Could it be that the Shimano way is ever so slightly easier on the nipples? Also, when it comes to sideways movement of the crosses, I think the Shimano way - while crosses would move outward - actually reduces the sideways movement, because spokes on the inside have less bend in them: they are naturally more inclined to resist sideways movement.

    I think Sheldon Brown said it best:
    "Note: This is not an important issue! There is a sizable minority of good wheelbuilders who prefer to go the other way around, and good wheels can be built either way."
    Good to hear right side radial is fine for front hubs, I just built one for the hell of it.

  21. #21
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    I like 1x over radial for any time you want to do anything other than 2x/2x or 3x/3x. More applicable for road wheels, but I think it ends up better. Looks good too

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    I like 1x over radial for any time you want to do anything other than 2x/2x or 3x/3x. More applicable for road wheels, but I think it ends up better. Looks good too
    working fine and looking good (heads out) on my ss


    slightly improved tension balance by reducing the bracing angle a hair


    a "just for the hell of it" build.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 02-25-2013 at 06:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    same story... still haven't heard anyone even attempt to rationalize the shimano way.
    Knowing Shimano I'm inclined to say that if they recommended one way over another it's because they tested it.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Knowing Shimano I'm inclined to say that if they recommended one way over another it's because they tested it.
    That makes some sense... I'm just wondering what they could have found that nobody else can... and why Chris King would come to the opposite conclusion.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 02-26-2013 at 09:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Knowing Shimano I'm inclined to say that if they recommended one way over another it's because they tested it.
    That's probably exactly what they'd like everyone to think. Asymmetric rear lace pattern? I wouldnt recommend that to anyone.

  26. #26
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    If the side of the flange matters for trailing/leading spokes, in that case lacing the drive and disk sides the opposite way makes perfect sense. I know it's a big "if" and I still don't think it really matters.

    What I'd like to know is how it was tested (if it was) and what is the reasoning behind one way over the other. I would rather not just believe things "because Chris King / Shimano says so". Having been right when the elementary school teacher was wrong made me really allergic to argumentum ad verecundiam.

  27. #27
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    Wheel lacing question

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Shimano's rec only applies to Shimano hubs.
    I'm guessing he saw the "Chris King way" somewhere. That is, unless there's some confusion here about what is meant by "inside" spokes.
    I still have never seen even an attempt at any sort of logic or basis for the Shimano way. I have resolved to be OK with that.
    Here is a summary of different manufacturer lacing recommendations from a few years back:

    http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/ind...c_wheel_Lacing

    Shimano and Magura both recommend the "motorcycle way". I have no idea if braking forces are 10x drive forces but it sure sounds good
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by edubfromktown View Post
    Here is a summary of different manufacturer lacing recommendations from a few years back:

    Disc wheel Lacing - Pvdwiki

    Shimano and Magura both recommend the "motorcycle way". I have no idea if braking forces are 10x drive forces but it sure sounds good
    There is still no reasoning presented to back up either case, though its very clear he's a Shimano homer. There are a few logic fails that show the Shimano bias.
    As has been mentioned, wheels work both ways without any clear advantages or disadvantages, so saying one way is superior, especially without providing any reason beyond "Shimano actually employs real engineers," is ridiculous.
    Motorcycle wheels are laced the way they are to make them easier to build, not for torque transmission reasons.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 02-26-2013 at 09:52 AM.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFoster View Post
    That's probably exactly what they'd like everyone to think. Asymmetric rear lace pattern? I wouldn't recommend that to anyone.
    Why do you think they didn't test it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Shimano's rec only applies to Shimano hubs.

    That doesn't make any sense.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    If the side of the flange matters for trailing/leading spokes, in that case lacing the drive and disk sides the opposite way makes perfect sense. I know it's a big "if" and I still don't think it really matters.

    What I'd like to know is how it was tested (if it was) and what is the reasoning behind one way over the other. I would rather not just believe things "because Chris King / Shimano says so". Having been right when the elementary school teacher was wrong made me really allergic to argumentum ad verecundiam.
    This is my thinking as well. Your "if" is the whole question for me.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by edubfromktown View Post
    Shimano and Magura both recommend the "motorcycle way". I have no idea if braking forces are 10x drive forces but it sure sounds good
    There's no way that braking forces on the rear wheel are 10x larger than drive forces. If it were true, you could stop your bike on a dime from 20mph using the rear brake alone which of course is clearly impossible.

    Actually, heck, let's see if I can work out some ballpark numbers. Assume an 80kg bike & rider, and that the rear brake can slow the bike at 0.5G, which is probably optimistic. That gives a force of 392N acting tangent to the rear wheel, which I'll assume is a 26", which gives a torque of 129Nm at the hub. For drive forces, let's say, 22/30 gearing on a 175mm crank and the rider puts his full 70kg weight on the pedal. That works out to a downward force of 686N on the pedal and 120Nm on the crank axle, which is then multiplied by the gearing to 164Nm at the hub. So even on a human powered bike, drive forces are still larger than braking forces on the rear wheel.

    Going back to lacing patterns, Shimano's method still doesn't make sense to me, especially the rear wheel given that we now know drive forces are greater. Since drive forces are greater, we should be lacing the wheel such that the spokes push themselves away from the rear derailleur under load instead of into it. Also, since caliper to spoke clearances are usually better on the rear than the front, the wheel can just be done the Sheldon Brown way without any issues.

    On the front wheel, I'd go with Chris King's recommendation since I've actually seen a case where a wheel laced the Shimano way pinged the caliper under heavy braking. Mind you this is pretty rare, I've only seen it once out of the thousands of wheels which have passed through my hands. I can't recall what the problem wheel was but I do remember the brake caliper was a Hope for what it's worth, and it was around 12 years ago. I build my front wheels the Shimano way out of habit and have been doing so for 20 years, I can't say I've had any problems yet.

  33. #33
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    Wheel lacing question

    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    There's no way that braking forces on the rear wheel are 10x larger than drive forces. If it were true, you could stop your bike on a dime from 20mph using the rear brake alone which of course is clearly impossible.

    Actually, heck, let's see if I can work out some ballpark numbers. Assume an 80kg bike & rider, and that the rear brake can slow the bike at 0.5G, which is probably optimistic. That gives a force of 392N acting tangent to the rear wheel, which I'll assume is a 26", which gives a torque of 129Nm at the hub. For drive forces, let's say, 22/30 gearing on a 175mm crank and the rider puts his full 70kg weight on the pedal. That works out to a downward force of 686N on the pedal and 120Nm on the crank axle, which is then multiplied by the gearing to 164Nm at the hub. So even on a human powered bike, drive forces are still larger than braking forces on the rear wheel.

    Going back to lacing patterns, Shimano's method still doesn't make sense to me, especially the rear wheel given that we now know drive forces are greater. Since drive forces are greater, we should be lacing the wheel such that the spokes push themselves away from the rear derailleur under load instead of into it. Also, since caliper to spoke clearances are usually better on the rear than the front, the wheel can just be done the Sheldon Brown way without any issues.

    On the front wheel, I'd go with Chris King's recommendation since I've actually seen a case where a wheel laced the Shimano way pinged the caliper under heavy braking. Mind you this is pretty rare, I've only seen it once out of the thousands of wheels which have passed through my hands. I can't recall what the problem wheel was but I do remember the brake caliper was a Hope for what it's worth, and it was around 12 years ago. I build my front wheels the Shimano way out of habit and have been doing so for 20 years, I can't say I've had any problems yet.
    Without running numbers, overall I think braking forces are greater than drive force for one simple reason. It is much easier to lock a wheel--on any surface--under braking than it is to break loose a tire with pedal force.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Without running numbers, overall I think braking forces are greater than drive force for one simple reason. It is much easier to lock a wheel--on any surface--under braking than it is to break loose a tire with pedal force.
    Well put & I agree. I was thinking of a way to paint this picture.
    I don't think there's any question about it from a greater than/less than standpoint. 10x may be high, but regardless of what the multiplier is, there is still no reason put forward that would suggest the Shimano way is better for any actual reason. If inside/outside matters, as some have suggested, "why" is what's lacking.
    Also, bikes can stop much faster than 0.5G.
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  35. #35
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    If you use the front brake then there's no question that braking forces are higher than drive loads, your deceleration limit there is around 1G (coefficient of friction of rubber on typical surfaces). On the rear however, you're not going to get that thanks to weight transfer under braking. I could work out an exact number by doing some controlled stops and breaking out a measuring tape, but I know from experience that it takes at least 2-3 times as much distance to stop using the rear brake alone so 0.5G is a reasonable ballpark figure.

    With regards to locking a wheel, let's go back to high school physics, specifically, kinetic vs. static friction. Kinetic, otherwise known as sliding friction is lower than static friction. Once you lock the tire, the braking force actually goes down. Also, for a given deceleration, in this case 0.5G, the net force on the wheel and thus the amount of torque on the hub & spokes is the same whether the tire is rolling & gripping or locked up and sliding.

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    This isn't something to do with the old BS about the leading caliper side spoke getting loose under hard braking and potentially bowing out to contact the caliper?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    This isn't something to do with the old BS about the leading caliper side spoke getting loose under hard braking and potentially bowing out to contact the caliper?
    Leading spokes gain tension under braking, and depending on which side of the flange they're on, they can pull the spoke crosses inward or outward. I've seen (afterward) and heard a caliper contacted by spokes during braking.
    In this case, Shimano orients the spoke such that the crosses are pulled outward, so "that old BS" would not be a reason they might give to justify their lacing recommendation.
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    Being that the shimano method for rear wheels results in a non mirror image between the sides, would I be insane for thinking that method could cause the dish to change depending in the torque load?

  39. #39
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    The shimano way for rears is mirrored. The heads out spokes point right when looking at the wheel, on both sides. For fronts, the right side is heads out pointing left.

    As far as I can tell, dish doesnt change, flex doesnt change... nothing changes at all. The sheldon brown lacing method more or less states "do it this way because its easier to lace spokes in", which seems to be about the most sense I can make out of any recommendation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    The shimano way for rears is mirrored. The heads out spokes point right when looking at the wheel, on both sides. For fronts, the right side is heads out pointing left.
    That's not mirrored/symmetrical. Mirrored is heads out leading on both sides.
    The "Shimano way" front is mirrored/symmetrical.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    As far as I can tell, dish doesnt change, flex doesnt change... nothing changes at all. The sheldon brown lacing method more or less states "do it this way because its easier to lace spokes in", which seems to be about the most sense I can make out of any recommendation.
    With asymmetrical wheels hub torque pulls the rim in the same direction on both sides of the hub... so theoretically the effect would be additive instead of counteracting.
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    When you flip the wheel over, the direction of rotation changes from forward to backwards. The heads out spokes point to the right on both sides when looking at that side.

    So when looking at both sides head on, they look the same.

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    Wheel lacing question

    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    When you flip the wheel over, the direction of rotation changes from forward to backwards. The heads out spokes point to the right on both sides when looking at that side.

    So when looking at both sides head on, they look the same.
    If they were mirrored/symmetrical, they would both point outward or both point inward, which is what you would see if you cut the wheel in half and held it next to a mirror. In the Shimano case they're both going to point left.
    If you hold a mirror down the centerline of your body and hold your hand out, the image produced is normal looking with both hands pointed outward (symmetrical), not two hands pointing the same direction.
    Pick up a bike wheel and compare it to that diagram.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 02-27-2013 at 07:03 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    This isn't something to do with the old BS about the leading caliper side spoke getting loose under hard braking and potentially bowing out to contact the caliper?
    This was my understanding as well...I thought the King method clearly stated this. But, it coulda been a conclusion I made when I was cleaning rotors w/ disc brake cleaner

    Edit: FYI, I have built wheel w/o a care which direction for which side and they're all holding up just fine, and w/o caliper contact...tho some do come close.
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    This was my understanding as well...I thought the King method clearly stated this. But, it coulda been a conclusion I made when I was cleaning rotors w/ disc brake cleaner
    Chris King does state that.
    One Pivot rekindled the thread to ask about the "Shimano way" of lacing (different from King), which has never had an explanation/justification put forth that I know of.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Chris King does state that.
    One Pivot rekindled the thread to ask about the "Shimano way" of lacing (different from King), which has never had an explanation/justification put forth that I know of.
    Another oldie- Simon; I mean Lennard says...

    (Lennard Zinn: tire sealant corrosion, disc brake spoking patterns, and more.)

    "I use the method recommended by Shimano, and I can explain that argument. The idea is that you want the pulling spokes coming to the outside of the hub flange (head in, elbow out) so that you have the widest pull angle to the rim.

    Pulling spokes on a rear wheel that oppose the drive forces of the chain trail behind as the wheel rotates forward — a pulling spoke at the top of the hub flange would be pointed back, behind the bike.

    However, pulling spokes opposing braking forces on a rotor point the opposite direction. Grab the top of the rotor and pull back on it, thus rotating the wheel the opposite direction of travel. This is the braking force direction your pulling spokes need to be opposing. So, a pulling spoke at the top of the hub flange opposing a disc brake points forward, ahead of the bike.

    If you want to end up with the Shimano-recommended pattern, you can use the wheelbuilding chapter of Zinn and the Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance to build your wheel. It describes how to lace front and rear disc-brake wheels resulting in the heads of the pulling spokes on the inboard side of the hub flange. Front wheels have pulling spokes opposing the disc brake to the outside of the hub flange on both sides, while rear wheels have the pulling spokes opposing the disc brake to the outside on the left and the pulling spokes opposing the chain tension to the outside on the drive side."

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    Quote Originally Posted by edubfromktown View Post
    "The idea is that you want the pulling spokes coming to the outside of the hub flange (head in, elbow out) so that you have the widest pull angle to the rim."

    Hmmm... on the bike wheels I build the spokes are laced, which means the heads-in spokes are inside the heads-out spokes after the cross... so they have a narrower "pull angle" to the rim.

    woops

    Even without that basic issue, the "widest pull angle to the rim" doesn't make any sense to me, and I'm not one to take something like that on faith.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    That makes some sense... I'm just wondering what they could have found that nobody else can... and why Chris King would come to the opposite conclusion.
    Because Shimano tested it and King got somebody's expert opinion. Seems this is like the common frame building debate of what's the best method to join tubes (lugs/filet braze/tig) the only true answer is that they are all good enough.

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    Im not sure if shimano tested it at all, because the results of that "test" isnt available anywhere. It sounds like they got some speculation and ran with it.. doing it both ways doesnt seem any different at all, and doesnt give more or less reliable or stiff results.

    I think its easy to call it a tradition argument really... Thats just the shimano way, because its the shimano way.

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    Wheel lacing question

    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Because Shimano tested it and King got somebody's expert opinion. Seems this is like the common frame building debate of what's the best method to join tubes (lugs/filet braze/tig) the only true answer is that they are all good enough.
    Pardon my poor memory, but ow do you know this again?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Pardon my poor memory, but ow do you know this again?
    It's just my educated guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Im not sure if shimano tested it at all, because the results of that "test" isnt available anywhere. It sounds like they got some speculation and ran with it

    I doubt it. Like most everyone else I started my bike career as a Shimano hater because Campy was so much better. 30 years of seeing their stuff evolve and tinkering with it have convinced me that Shimano employs some of the top eggheads in the world to work in their engineering department and if they say one lacing method is better than another I wouldn't bet against it, even though "better" might mean an inconsequential .00043% more torsional stiffness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Hmmm... on the bike wheels I build the spokes are laced, which means the heads-in spokes are inside the heads-out spokes after the cross... so they have a narrower "pull angle" to the rim.
    Yes- me too... I just haven't been able to let it go though customfab is spot on: it just duddn't matter.

    Of the five 29er wheel sets I am running now, three were hand built the same as you described. I haven't taco'd any of them so unless some incomprehensibly heavy black hole dust (that would push the design past theoretical limits) falls on me while riding, I have nothing to worry about

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    Wheel lacing question

    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    It's just my educated guess.
    Believing in something with no reason other than "Shimano said it" may work for you guys. I need something that actually makes sense.

    What Shimano is saying with those two pictures and one sentence is also a consideration. The recommendation only applies to Shimano hubs. You wouldn't use those instructions to set up your Avid brakes, right?
    Saying it might be better generally for some reason is an even larger leap of faith.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Wheel lacing question

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I doubt it. Like most everyone else I started my bike career as a Shimano hater because Campy was so much better. 30 years of seeing their stuff evolve and tinkering with it have convinced me that Shimano employs some of the top eggheads in the world to work in their engineering department and if they say one lacing method is better than another I wouldn't bet against it, even though "better" might mean an inconsequential .00043% more torsional stiffness.
    Is this a "witness"?

    Seriously, testimonials about the quality of Shimano's engineering and how you came to believe?

    I guess that's what its come to.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Wheel lacing question

    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    That doesn't make any sense.
    So I should use Shimano instructions to set up my bike even if it doesn't have a single Shimano part on it?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Shimano's engineering is good but it's hardly infallible. There were a bunch of cranks in the mid 90's that broke in half so often they were recalled, and there's rapid-rise and the 2 generations of disc brakes which followed the original M755.

    And the more I think about it, the less that rear wheel makes sense. I honestly have no clue why Shimano wants their wheels laced that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I doubt it. Like most everyone else I started my bike career as a Shimano hater because Campy was so much better. 30 years of seeing their stuff evolve and tinkering with it have convinced me that Shimano employs some of the top eggheads in the world to work in their engineering department and if they say one lacing method is better than another I wouldn't bet against it, even though "better" might mean an inconsequential .00043% more torsional stiffness.
    I wish they would "tinker" with their 6-bolt disc hubs. That segment seems like it's been completely abandoned since the early 00's, if not before. Apparently, they're content at watching the rise of Sram out of thin air to come in and take over chunks of their OE bike spec business.

    So that leaves their Centerlock disc hubs. A great idea that's gone nowhere. Evolution of these hubs seems like its limited to necessity. When a certain level of hub sucks for just long enough, they make a tweak to make it just a bit better. Given their history and focus on hub manufacturing, wow. Great approach.

    But hey, the Fishing segment's business is up!

    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Shimano's engineering is good but it's hardly infallible. There were a bunch of cranks in the mid 90's that broke in half so often they were recalled, and there's rapid-rise and the 2 generations of disc brakes which followed the original M755.

    And the more I think about it, the less that rear wheel makes sense. I honestly have no clue why Shimano wants their wheels laced that way.
    My guess is that diagram was "designed" decades ago, and no one's been allowed in their huge bureaucracy to get in and affect change.

    What's funny about this whole exchange, discussing the merits of Shimano's lacing method as spec'd in their hub diagram. But look at the lace pattern for their own factory wheel sets. Straight pull, symmetrically laced, inside pulling patterns as far as I can tell from the few pics I've looked at. If you find different, I'm happy to look and learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Believing in something with no reason other than "Shimano said it" may work for you guys. I need something that actually makes sense.

    What Shimano is saying with those two pictures and one sentence is also a consideration. The recommendation only applies to Shimano hubs. You wouldn't use those instructions to set up your Avid brakes, right?
    Saying it might be better generally for some reason is an even larger leap of faith.
    Both arguments make sense. All I'm saying is that it's highly likely that Shimano actually tested it and found that one way was better than the other. We've come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    So I should use Shimano instructions to set up my bike even if it doesn't have a single Shimano part on it?
    Your pulling that out of context. Obviously Shimano instructions apply to their parts. But with their lacing recommendation it crosses over to every J bend hub on the market. That's why your statement was short minded.

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    Wheel lacing question

    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    We've come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter.
    With ya there... not convinced any testing was involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Your pulling that out of context. Obviously Shimano instructions apply to their parts. But with their lacing recommendation it crosses over to every J bend hub on the market. That's why your statement was short minded.
    I'm interested in the "issue" because I love bikes and wheels in particular and am an engineer with a penchant for analytical thinking. So far this discussion has taken about 50 laps around the various assumptions made and still lacks a single attempt to reason through the lacing recommendation, which is my interest and why the thread was rekindled. Its just kind of tiring.
    The lacing recommendation for XTR is different and specific to that model in that it allows radial lacing on the front DS. Surely that's been tested and blows XT hubs up but works fine on XTR right? Why would you choose to broadly apply the XT & below rec to every J-bend hub on the market and not XTR?
    Their lacing recommendation doesn't apply to Chris King hubs.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 02-28-2013 at 10:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Is this a "witness"?

    Seriously, testimonials about the quality of Shimano's engineering and how you came to believe?

    I guess that's what its come to.

    Quote Originally Posted by CFoster View Post
    But hey, the Fishing segment's business is up!

    Yes, they have made mistakes, many of them, but for such a prolific company I think their track record is pretty good and it seems obvious to me that they are well funded and well stocked with talented engineers and top notch computing equipment. Since I'm not an engineer and haven't devoted years of study towards this subject I was just trying to say that if I were a gambling man I'd probably put my money on Shimano. Like everyone else I agree that it doesn't matter, sheesh!

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    Wheel lacing question

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Since I'm not an engineer and haven't devoted years of study towards this subject I was just trying to say that if I were a gambling man I'd probably put my money on Shimano. Like everyone else I agree that it doesn't matter, sheesh!
    Not trying to haze your zone... just not feeling the Shimano=god argument and I am interested in the technical side, not the gambling side.
    It is interesting that you'd put money on Shimano while at the same time thinking it doesn't matter. Now that's faith!
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    if they say one lacing method is better then another I wouldn't bet against it, even though "better" might mean an inconsequential .00043% more torsional stiffness.
    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    It is interesting that you'd put money on Shimano while at the same time thinking it doesn't matter. Now that's faith!

    No god worship here- just a hunch based on my experience with them. What Shimano deems "better" based on computer simulations and graphs and what I think actually matters based on my real world experiences are two different things. I'll let all you armchair engineers work out the math!

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    [QUOTE=meltingfeather;10199334]With ya there... not convinced any testing was involved.


    I'm interested in the "issue" because I love bikes and wheels in particular and am an engineer with a penchant for analytical thinking. So far this discussion has taken about 50 laps around the various assumptions made and still lacks a single attempt to reason through the lacing recommendation, which is my interest and why the thread was rekindled. Its just kind of tiring.
    The lacing recommendation for XTR is different and specific to that model in that it allows radial lacing on the front DS. Surely that's been tested and blows XT hubs up but works fine on XTR right? Why would you choose to broadly apply the XT & below rec to every J-bend hub on the market and not XTR?
    Their lacing recommendation doesn't apply to Chris King hubs. ;

    If you had spent half the time testing this as you do poking holes in everybody's statments we would have an entire library of wheel research.

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    Wheel lacing question

    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    If you had spent half the time testing this as you do poking holes in everybody's statments we would have an entire library of wheel research.
    Cute.
    The problem is that not a single theory has been put forth to poke holes in.
    Hedging by speculating about what Shimano may have done to determine that their way is better based on how great you think they are while at the same time conceding that you don't actually think their way is better is a much bigger waste of time than trying to direct the discussion to the actual issue (IMHO).
    This is my last lap.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 02-28-2013 at 02:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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