Mtbr's 2016 Winter Biking GearReviews and Roundups

FAT BIKES

WINTER APPAREL

TRAINERS

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 64
  1. #1
    Living the Dream
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,618

    Wheel lacing question

    Hi. I just had a new wheel trued at my LBS. The mechanic informed me that the wheel lacing was opposite of what is recommended. The inside spokes on the disc side are facing forward instead of to the rear. After I researched the issue and he appears to be correct. My question is, is this a big deal? The wheels are from a very popular and reputable builder and my first set of wheels from him lasted forever without needing a true, and they are laced the proper way. I have two new sets of wheels from him laced with the inside spokes facing forward.

    Thanks!
    "And I shout that your all fakes and you should have seen the look on your face"

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 4slomo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,589
    In theory, since you have disc brake wheels, the "inside" spokes need to be "pulling" spokes during braking, meaning they would be stretched if you can visualize that. Grab a brake handle with one hand, and try to rotate the wheel forward with the other hand. Look at the spokes and you can probably tell which ones would be stretched while you are braking. In practice, it doesn't make much difference.
    Last edited by 4slomo; 08-29-2011 at 02:25 PM.
    Hey everybody, ride my wheels! They ride good, real good.
    I'm a wheel builder. SRLPE Wheel Works. Send me a PM.

  3. #3
    transmitter~receiver
    Reputation: meltingfeather's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,596
    It makes no difference.
    What is "recommended" depends on who you talk to.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  4. #4
    Former Bike Wrench
    Reputation: mtnbiker72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    15,979
    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    It makes no difference.
    What is "recommended" depends on who you talk to.
    Exactly...makes no structual difference despite each sides claims

  5. #5
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,308
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenglow View Post
    Hi. I just had a new wheel trued at my LBS. The mechanic informed me that the wheel lacing was opposite of what is recommended. The inside spokes on the disc side are facing forward instead of to the rear. After I researched the issue and he appears to be correct. My question is, is this a big deal? The wheels are from a very popular and reputable builder and my first set of wheels from him lasted forever without needing a true, and they are laced the proper way. I have two new sets of wheels from him laced with the inside spokes facing forward.

    Thanks!
    Does not matter. Ask 4 experts and you will get 6 answers about which way is best.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  6. #6
    Living the Dream
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,618

    Thanks

    Appreciate the good information.
    "And I shout that your all fakes and you should have seen the look on your face"

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    6,762
    Agreed. This has been a topic of debate, often time acrimonious debate, among wheel builders for a long long time. While the theory seems sound, there is no "real world" evidence that one way is better than the other. I've had wheel sets that were lace both ways, both disc and rim brake, over the years, and all have lasted a long time and been trouble free.

    Like Shiggy said, ask 4 pro wheel builders about it and you'll get 6 different answers.

    It really don't matter!

    Good Dirt
    "I do whatever my Rice Cripsies tell me to!"

  8. #8
    A wheelist
    Reputation: Mike T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,777
    I, like Shigg and probably a few others here, have laced 'em both ways and the sky didn't fall. We know that they work perfectly well done either way. If someone informed me "that the wheel lacing was opposite of what is recommended" I'd question their knowledge of wheelbuilding.
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilders with information and motivation.

  9. #9
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,308
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    . If someone informed me "that the wheel lacing was opposite of what is recommended" I'd question their knowledge of wheelbuilding.
    I would not go that far.

    Shimano has a recommended lacing pattern on its hub tech sheet, so it can be a true statement. It is just that it does not really matter. Which THEN makes you question why it would be brought up.

    I have encountered a few A-R riders that read everything about their components and insist on having their wheels laced the Shimano way. I do not argue. Not worth bothering.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  10. #10
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,308
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I would not go that far.

    Shimano has a recommended lacing pattern on its hub tech sheet, so it can be a true statement. It is just that it does not really matter. Which THEN makes you question why it would be brought up.

    I have encountered a few A-R riders that read everything about their components and insist on having their wheels laced the Shimano way. I do not argue. Not worth bothering.
    I just checked Shimano's rec'co, and it is inside spokes BACK on the front and left rear, inside forward on the rear driveside.

    http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830621150.PDF
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  11. #11
    transmitter~receiver
    Reputation: meltingfeather's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,596
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I would not go that far.

    Shimano has a recommended lacing pattern on its hub tech sheet, so it can be a true statement. It is just that it does not really matter. Which THEN makes you question why it would be brought up.

    I have encountered a few A-R riders that read everything about their components and insist on having their wheels laced the Shimano way. I do not argue. Not worth bothering.
    Shimano's rec only applies to Shimano hubs.
    I'm guessing he saw the "Chris King way" somewhere. That is, unless there's some confusion here about what is meant by "inside" spokes.
    I still have never seen even an attempt at any sort of logic or basis for the Shimano way. I have resolved to be OK with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    506
    Discussion much appreciated. I have always thought it didn't make much of a difference.

    urmb
    “Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of riding a \mountain or fat/ bike.” ~ John F. Kennedy

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: two-one's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    560
    It only makes a difference to me when Im starting the build, and have to make a decision... after the spokes are laced, it doesn't matter anymore

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: One Pivot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    5,217
    Old thread! Bumped because I just got an SLX and saw shimanos recommendations... has anyone heard a shimano rep explain why they suggest that? I cant imagine what their rationale is, but id like to hear it!

    I laced and relaced a shimano wheel both ways and noticed no difference in anything. Ive always laced stuff the sheldon brown way (DS opposite of what shimano says). Ive heard people say one way is stiffer, but my testing (with a super noodle rim) showed no difference.

  15. #15
    transmitter~receiver
    Reputation: meltingfeather's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,596
    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Old thread! Bumped because I just got an SLX and saw shimanos recommendations... has anyone heard a shimano rep explain why they suggest that? I cant imagine what their rationale is, but id like to hear it!
    same story... still haven't heard anyone even attempt to rationalize the shimano way.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  16. #16
    turtles make me hot
    Reputation: NYrr496's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    6,454
    FWIW, I've laced a bunch of wheels ALL by the Sheldon Brown method... Shimano hubs, Hope Hubs, DT Swiss hubs...
    They all work fine. Including the first set I ever did on my Clyde bike.

    I didn't even know Shimano had a method.
    I like turtles

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Saul Lumikko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,762
    I think there's a theoretical explanation for the "Shimano lacing".

    The "inside spokes" are at a sharper angle, so theoretically they pass torque from the hub to the rim (and vice versa) differently. So on the drive side rear the spokes should be arranged to pass torque from the hub to the rim.
    When braking with disc or hub brakes, the direction of force is opposite. The front has no drive torque so it makes sense to lace the spokes considering the braking force only.

    Practically I don't think it matters.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    265
    I spent a good number of hours researching this topic. A number of hub manufacturers specify a bunch of different theories on the issue. Every wheel building guide or authority I've studied states that it's unimportant. The only exception I make is radially laced front road wheels. Outbound spoke heads make the wheel more aerodynamic, and inbound spoke heads make the wheel stiffer/stronger. I give my riders the option when I build their wheels. They all want the stiffer/stronger option.

  19. #19
    transmitter~receiver
    Reputation: meltingfeather's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,596
    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    The "inside spokes" are at a sharper angle, so theoretically they pass torque from the hub to the rim (and vice versa) differently.
    Assuming this is true, there's a logical disconnect between "differently" and the Shimano way. You didn't connect the dots.
    Chris King states that their recommended lacing is based on the direction spoke crosses are pulled by torques (inward). Shimano lacing is such that all torques applied at the hubs pull spoke crosses outward.
    In unrelated news, the tech doc for XTR hubs says drive-side radial lacing is acceptable for the front wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    Practically I don't think it matters.
    With ya there.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Saul Lumikko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,762
    I fetched a couple of freshly built wheels to visualize it better. The rear wheel is symmetrical with freewheel threads on both sides, so only driving forces need to be concerned - the brakes are cantis so it won't affect lacing. Seems that I've laced it the opposite way compared to Shimano recommendation. Indeed, the crosses will move inwards under load, or if I flip it over, the crosses will move outward as the trailing spokes will be on the outside. Which way to go? I'll install it so that the hub texts can be read from the rear!

    As opposed to what I previously wrote, it's actually spokes from outside the flange that go to the rim at a sharper angle. Could it be that the Shimano way is ever so slightly easier on the nipples? Also, when it comes to sideways movement of the crosses, I think the Shimano way - while crosses would move outward - actually reduces the sideways movement, because spokes on the inside have less bend in them: they are naturally more inclined to resist sideways movement.

    I think Sheldon Brown said it best:
    "Note: This is not an important issue! There is a sizable minority of good wheelbuilders who prefer to go the other way around, and good wheels can be built either way."
    Good to hear right side radial is fine for front hubs, I just built one for the hell of it.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: One Pivot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    5,217
    I like 1x over radial for any time you want to do anything other than 2x/2x or 3x/3x. More applicable for road wheels, but I think it ends up better. Looks good too

  22. #22
    transmitter~receiver
    Reputation: meltingfeather's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,596
    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    I like 1x over radial for any time you want to do anything other than 2x/2x or 3x/3x. More applicable for road wheels, but I think it ends up better. Looks good too
    working fine and looking good (heads out) on my ss


    slightly improved tension balance by reducing the bracing angle a hair


    a "just for the hell of it" build.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 02-25-2013 at 06:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  23. #23
    Plays with tools
    Reputation: customfab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    4,394
    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    same story... still haven't heard anyone even attempt to rationalize the shimano way.
    Knowing Shimano I'm inclined to say that if they recommended one way over another it's because they tested it.

  24. #24
    transmitter~receiver
    Reputation: meltingfeather's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,596
    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Knowing Shimano I'm inclined to say that if they recommended one way over another it's because they tested it.
    That makes some sense... I'm just wondering what they could have found that nobody else can... and why Chris King would come to the opposite conclusion.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 02-26-2013 at 09:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: CFoster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    166
    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Knowing Shimano I'm inclined to say that if they recommended one way over another it's because they tested it.
    That's probably exactly what they'd like everyone to think. Asymmetric rear lace pattern? I wouldnt recommend that to anyone.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Question about re-lacing wheel
    By bikerboyj17 in forum Wheels and Tires
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-16-2010, 12:54 PM
  2. Wheel Lacing Question
    By campredcloudbikes in forum Wheels and Tires
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-18-2008, 03:06 PM
  3. Wheel lacing question
    By njhcx4xlife in forum Wheels and Tires
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-04-2007, 12:19 PM
  4. Wheel lacing question
    By Ringer X in forum Wheels and Tires
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-16-2004, 01:50 AM
  5. Wheel Question...Old Hub, New Rim, Different lacing pattern?
    By AdroitBreaker in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-01-2004, 11:05 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Follow MTBR on Facebook