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  1. #1
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    Tubes or Stans??? (Warning: Many Q's)

    Okay, I have a set of Mavic Crossrides on the way, and I'm trying to choose which way to go. Tubes or no tubes? Need input and some Q's answered.


    Which is lighter? Pros/Cons? Is tubeless worth dealing (initail setup) with stans? Are there any maintenance issuses with stans?
    Dont wait, procrastinate now!

  2. #2
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    well, i'll never go back to tubes if i can help it...the advantage for me is that my tires are now virtually thorn proof, which is a huge concern in my neck of the woods. there is a modest weight loss by going tubeless as well.

    i've found that the easiest way to set up the tires is with an air compressor...i don't bother using a floor pump (to many variables have to be lined up)

    also, most any tire can be set up which is nice...the downside is that if you like changing around tires, this requires a little more effort and kind of messy

    if you like to save money like me, you can use 24 inch inner tubes for the strips which will save you a ton of money over stan's strips (~$20). then all you have to buy is stan's goo, i buy two liter bottle at a time. in winter you can go longer between recharges than in summer obviously...lastly, recharging becomes dream easy when you simply remove the valve core from the strip and fill with a little syringe

    hope that helps you
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  3. #3
    Phil from San Diego
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    Stans!

    It took me an enormous amount of time and effort to convert my non-tubless wheelset to Stans mainly due to getting the right air compressor that wasn't a piece of junk...

    I was so close to giving up and going back to tubes! But now that I'm running Stans, I've had zero issues with it. The weight savings and not having to worry about flats has improved my riding and also made it more fun. =)

    Now that I have a nice air compressor and knows how to prep the wheels, now it would be as simple as what it shows in the Stans instruction vide!

    Phil.

  4. #4
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    I'm not totally familiar with the Crossride wheels but I'm assuming that they are non-UST. My opinion is that if you want to go tubeless get UST wheels. I have seen and heard of too many failures of non-tubeless tires being run tubeless. There is a growing number of Tubeless ready tires becoming available. If you are not aware of them, they are a normal carcass with a UST type bead. They have the weight advantage of a normal tire with the security of a tubeless bead. They have to be run with sealant.

    If you get the Crossride wheels, use tubes.

    Ronnie.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

  5. #5
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    I'll be the one to say that both systems suck, and you just have to decide which sucks the least for you. Stan's won't seal a sidewall cut and putting a tube in a tire filled with slimey goop is a monster pain... That and being trailside getting dirt all up in the tire- just a mess. That, and I always wonder how many thorns are in there that will pop the tube as soon as I stick it in. Couple that wiht the fact that duct tape won't stick to the inside of the wet tire, in case the hole is so big the tube would otherwise pop out of... The thorn protection is wonderful, though. I run stan's as long as I can, until my tires are cut and I'm forced into running tubes, then I just have to suffer the flats until I get new tires ready for stan's again.

    Beware though, not all tires are stan's ready. Some will blow off the rim in what's known as a Stan's blowout. I got greedy and tried running some Stan's unapproved tires wiht Stan's sealant and found out the hard way. And Stan's sealant is brutally hard to get off your bike once dried on.

    BM
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  6. #6
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    I like Stans too. The flat protection pays for itself in time and tubes. I did have a Maxxis tire blow off the rim on time with no damage on time.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    I like Stans too. The flat protection pays for itself in time and tubes. I did have a Maxxis tire blow off the rim on time with no damage on time.
    You have experienced a tire blow of a rim and you got lucky and didn't plant your face. You are prepared to continue using it to save time. The next time around you may have to spend the time at the dentist!

    I have never had a flat with UST and Tubeless Ready tires in four years but I don't live in a thorny area. You would get the same puncture protection with a UST rim and sealant.

    Ronnie.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

  8. #8
    meh... whatever
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    stans. no question.

    if you use a tubeless specific tire you will be far less likely to cut the sidewall. thats a fairly rare occurance anyway. ive ridden all over the country and put in thousands of miles off road every year and i have yet to cut the sidewall of a tire. it is very, very, very rare that we get a tire in the shop on a customers bike with a cut sidewall. not saying its impossible, because it does happen. just saying that imho that should not be a consideration in choosing tubes or stans.

    if youre worried that will happen, simply cut a couple of strips of downhill tubes about the size of a dollar bill and toss a park sidewall patch into your camel back. they will wrap around the extra tube youre carrying nicely and add little bulk. then if you happen to cut your sidewall, apply the park patch to one of the dh tube strips and place it patch side in over the cut, install the tube and head back to the car. for a particularly nasty cut you can sandwich it between the two strips, center the "sandwich" on the cut, install the tube, and ride back to the car. but if you cut it bad enough to have to try the latter you would be screwed with or without tubes, so that doesnt really matter.

    also, there are some tires which do not convert well. ANY tubeless tire should work fine on the crossrides if set up properly. however, ime many kenda non-tubeless tires do not work well on ANY rim because the sidewall is too thin from kenda trying to make a super light tire. they seat fine, but stans bubbles out of the sidewall as though its perferated like a sieve. also, ime the non-tubeless kenda tires have a tendency to burp if you land them sideways (like from a tailwhip) or hit a root going around a corner, or a myriad of other situations youre likely to encounter riding.

    ime, tubeless tires with stans strips usually blow off the rim because they are not set up correctly. so be sure to do it right. it may be best to have someone with experience show you how the first time.

    if you dont like changing flats, would like to run lower pressure for better cornering and climbing traction without the danger of pinch flatting, and get tired of carry tubes around with you then by all means run tubeless. most people who go tubeless will never go back.
    Last edited by monogod; 11-09-2007 at 06:55 AM.
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  9. #9
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    I think the Stan's conversion is lame personally. There's a list of tires that MIGHT work okay MAYBE but I've seen several people with the Stan's conversion blow tires right off the rim. In fact, I was at the trailhead getting read to ride once, and my buddies tire blew off the rim before the ride even started. Normal pressure in the tire and everything, the bike was leaning next to the truck and it blew off the rim. On like 2 other occaisions it came off the rim also. I run UST/UST and the system is flawless. Why bother with ghetto tubeless setups and tires that may or may not work when you can just go UST tires and UST rims and be bomproof? I've had 3 flats with tubeless total and I've been riding them since tubeless first came out. 2 of those were pinch flats from slamming square edged staircases or rocks, and 1 was from tearing a lug off the tire coming down Pilot in PNF hauling ass.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie
    You have experienced a tire blow of a rim and you got lucky and didn't plant your face. You are prepared to continue using it to save time. The next time around you may have to spend the time at the dentist!

    I have never had a flat with UST and Tubeless Ready tires in four years but I don't live in a thorny area. You would get the same puncture protection with a UST rim and sealant.

    Ronnie.
    Ronnie,

    Donít put a Voo Doo curse on me.

    I left out some details. I have only used UTS and Stans rims. I would not use a regular rim with Stans.

    I had UTS before and I would get flats seemingly just as easy as conventional tires and tube. I would put a tube in a Tubeless tires and wonder what's the point. UTS Tries are HEAVY and EXPENSIVE.

    The only time I have to go to the dentist for a biking industry was do to a conventional tire and tube going flat, which happens a LOT more frequent than Stans. I have gone for more than a year without a leek flat on Stans. I have only repaired Stans on the trail one time in the last 7 years. All the other times it was slow leaks like when the side wall gets a cut.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod

    if you use a tubeless specific tire you will be far less likely to cut the sidewall. thats a fairly rare occurance anyway.
    Side-wall cuts are common on light weight tires that are ridden aggressively on terrain with sharp rock outcroppings. Your riding, tires, and terrain

  12. #12
    meh... whatever
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    Side-wall cuts are common on light weight tires that are ridden aggressively on terrain with sharp rock outcroppings. Your riding, tires, and terrain
    yeah, ill agree to that. the statement was made with the assumption the appropriate tire is being used.

    its completely user error to run a tire inappropriate for the terrain. if someone doesnt know any better than to use a light weight tire in those conditions then call it a learning experience.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  13. #13
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    I have gone to stan's and tubeless ready tires. I will likely never go back. Initial setup wasn't as hard as people have said, or other friends have experienced. Maybe I just got lucky. I don't have a compressor, so I just used one of those CO2 pump thingy's and the tire seated right up.

    Tubeless just feels better. It's hard to describe. It seems cushier.

  14. #14
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    I'll chime in, too. I used slime tubes for quite a while and didn't have any complaints, really. I still use 'em on my full-squishy (though will be converting when I wear the current tires out). That being said, I was having a terrible time with pinch-flatting on my single-speed. I throw wheels out of whack by looking at them, so I bought a heavy pair of Rhino Lites and wrapped them with IRC Mythos and slime tubes. Never had a thorn flat, but damn if I didn't pinch flat EVERY ride. In order not to, I had to run 50psi and they became unbearable traction-wise.

    So, I bit the bullet and purchased the Rhino Lite Stans conversion kit and two Kenda Kinetics UST tires. I didn't have ANY issue setting them up, and I only had a floor pump. I just followed the directions from the Stans website. I haven't had a single problem with them at all and LOVE it. Weight is slightly less (I think), I have a ton more traction, less air pressure and it's all really helped since I've gone rigid on my SS.

    One suggestion... be very careful when mounting the tire. Don't puncture the rim strip or you'll leak Stans everywhere. Also set your tires out in the sun to get a bit more pliable before mounting.
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  15. #15
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    I agree with G-Cracker but be warned that rhyno lites are simply amazing with stans conversions, other rims will vary. Rhynolites amazing - other rims vary. That is all.
    Try this: HTFU

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    IWhy bother with ghetto tubeless setups and tires that may or may not work when you can just go UST tires and UST rims and be bomproof?
    Because they are heavy and s-l-o-w r-o-l-l-i-n-g. Slow tires sap my motivation to ride as much as they sap my forward momentum. Here's a hotly debated post on the subject: German Tubeless-Systems comparison Test

    For the record, I ride in very rocky, jagged rocky, desert terrain. Most flast are from thorns, but enough are from sidewall cuts. It's a trade off, while a tubless conversion makes you no more vulnerable to sidewall cuts as a standard tire with a tube, it also gives you pinch flat protection, light weight, and low-er rolling resistance.

    Also there are some tires that have better sidewalls than others. In my experience, Maxxis eXCeption series tires, Kendas and Hutchinsons are of the worst. On one ride I got no less than five small cuts (tube slightly bulging out) on a Larsen TT eXCeption tire. The best tires I've ridden are the IRC XC tires. I've worn Mythos, Serrrac, Mibro and Mibro for Marathon tires down to the casings and never ever suffered a sidewall cut. To top that, most of those tires came in a surprisign bit under the advertised wieght. That, and at least the Mibro's rolled fast.

    To add to the freak occurance list, I've actually had a tubed front tire blow off the rim. The tire was probably goofed up in some way (bad qc), and I was going pretty fast on singletrack (just under 20mph as recorded by GPS) and nothing bad happened. the tube, still full of air expanded to amazing proportions and wrapped itself around my front hub many times. It took quite a bit of cutting to get it off. I just rolled to a stop, and hoofed it to the trailhead. And the one time I had a stan's blowout was on the road commuting from home and same thing, tire blows off, slime goes everywhere, and I just rolled to a stop, put it a tube and rode home. A front tire blowout isn't like a head tube snapping off.

    BM
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  17. #17
    Harrumph
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    I use both. A little Stans in a Tube and I've got puncture protection with zero hassles of a tubeless set up.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg
    I use both. A little Stans in a Tube and I've got puncture protection with zero hassles of a tubeless set up.


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  19. #19
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    UST is the only way to go. I've been on it for over 2yrs (Mavic XM819 UST) and never a problem. Use UST tires with a scoop or 2 of Stans. Unless you are racing the extra weight should not matter.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmadau
    Because they are heavy and s-l-o-w r-o-l-l-i-n-g. Slow tires sap my motivation to ride as much as they sap my forward momentum. Here's a hotly debated post on the subject: German Tubeless-Systems comparison Test

    For the record, I ride in very rocky, jagged rocky, desert terrain. Most flast are from thorns, but enough are from sidewall cuts. It's a trade off, while a tubless conversion makes you no more vulnerable to sidewall cuts as a standard tire with a tube, it also gives you pinch flat protection, light weight, and low-er rolling resistance.

    Also there are some tires that have better sidewalls than others. In my experience, Maxxis eXCeption series tires, Kendas and Hutchinsons are of the worst. On one ride I got no less than five small cuts (tube slightly bulging out) on a Larsen TT eXCeption tire. The best tires I've ridden are the IRC XC tires. I've worn Mythos, Serrrac, Mibro and Mibro for Marathon tires down to the casings and never ever suffered a sidewall cut. To top that, most of those tires came in a surprisign bit under the advertised wieght. That, and at least the Mibro's rolled fast.

    To add to the freak occurance list, I've actually had a tubed front tire blow off the rim. The tire was probably goofed up in some way (bad qc), and I was going pretty fast on singletrack (just under 20mph as recorded by GPS) and nothing bad happened. the tube, still full of air expanded to amazing proportions and wrapped itself around my front hub many times. It took quite a bit of cutting to get it off. I just rolled to a stop, and hoofed it to the trailhead. And the one time I had a stan's blowout was on the road commuting from home and same thing, tire blows off, slime goes everywhere, and I just rolled to a stop, put it a tube and rode home. A front tire blowout isn't like a head tube snapping off.

    BM

    I don't see how you're saying that tubless tires are much heavier (when you think about how much a tube weighs especially) or slower rolling. Maybe I just misinterpreted your post but UST tires ride better and as for slow rolling that seems like more of a function of running lower pressures and tread patterns than anything else.

  21. #21
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    I really like Bontrager's Tubeless Ready system. Its light and so far has been very reliable and effective even in marathon style riding and racing (50-100 milers, all kinds of terrain)

  22. #22
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    Definetly UST. I just switched in March and the pinch flat problem has completly gone away.

    I have only flatted twice since, and one was due to knob tearing due to rocky Phoenix terrain and one was flaw in tire that local LBS replaced under warrenty!

    I have the Specialized sealant in a Roll-X pro UST tire on my front wheel and have not touched it for four months!! No add of sealant, only put minor air in occasionally and this lasted thru a hot AZ summer with riding three to four times a week. I bought some Stans sealant and it dried out in under three weeks in my rear RollX Sworks. I have had way better results with the Specialized sealant over the Stans.

  23. #23
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    ok, stupid question, Say I get a tubeless wheelset, and get the tubeless tires? What is involved in mounting them, do you have to use the stans ??????

    confused

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxr-racer
    ok, stupid question, Say I get a tubeless wheelset, and get the tubeless tires? What is involved in mounting them, do you have to use the stans ??????

    confused

    No, you don't need Stans for tubeless tires and tubeless rims. Make sure you have a tubeless valve, basically a valve cut off a tube when you buy it from Stans, but UST tubeless valves are more robust because the dont have sealant to back it up. You install the bead like any other tire, but you need more air flow to bead the tire. So you either do a lot pumping with a floor pump or using a compressor is best. I have never had a compressor.

    Cary a tube with you because it is just as easy to get a flat on UST tubeless. Carry a tube with Stans it will be a rare occasion when you use it.
    Last edited by Killroy; 11-25-2007 at 01:10 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxr-racer
    ok, stupid question, Say I get a tubeless wheelset, and get the tubeless tires? What is involved in mounting them, do you have to use the stans ??????

    confused
    No, you don't have to use Stan's or any other sealant with UST (Universal System for Tubeless) tires and rims. Some people do though especially in areas where they tend to puncture a lot, like if there are a lot of thorns. The sealant will fill small punctures. I don't have that problem and have never flatted a UST tire in four years.

    I'm assuming you have no experience with tubeless. UST are very simple to mount. All you need is a good floor pump. There is no rim strip or anything like that to worry about. There are no holes drilled into inside of the rim for spoke nipples and the rim is completely air tight. The middle of the rim has a channel. You mount the tire normally and make sure both tire beads or in the channel and then pump up the tire through the valve. It's advisable to use a bit of soapy water, applied with a sponge to help the bead slide out and seat into the rim but it can be done without.

    Ronnie.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

  26. #26
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    Hey guys,
    one more question.Do you think the NON-tubeless schwalbe nobby nic's will be okay with the stan tubeless kit(my rims are DT Swiss XR4.1) or I'd better switch them with the tubeless one's??
    Thanks in advance.

  27. #27
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    I have the Stans Standard rim conversion kit on Mavic rims. I have had only one problem
    in two years and it was Stans neglect. I had let the Stans Dry up in a rear tire causing a
    flat. I really like the ride quality of tubless. The Tire grips better with lower tire pressure,
    also the tire rolls easier over rocks. It is not a set and forget system though. You must check your levels in the tires at least every 3 months. With the rim strip system the
    stans glues itself to the strip and you must peel it back off the tire to check the level in the tire. If you dont currently get flats with tubes and you like changing tires Stans could be more of a hassle for you.

    I usually run a set of tires until they are done so the Stans system is easy for me,
    I have had as many as 8 thorns in my tire with no flats, Just pull the thorns and let stans
    seal it up. With large thorns it takes more stans to seal so you go through more of the stuff. It took over 30 seconds to seal the hole from this thorn.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick_innovator
    Hey guys,
    one more question.Do you think the NON-tubeless schwalbe nobby nic's will be okay with the stan tubeless kit(my rims are DT Swiss XR4.1) or I'd better switch them with the tubeless one's??
    Thanks in advance.
    I'll reiterate what I said previously. I've seen too many failures with non-tubeless tires and tubeless kits. I'd personally never recommend them to anyone. DT Swiss rims are not designed as UST rims as far as I know. I can't volunteer any information as to how well they would work with UST or Tubeless Ready tires.

    Ronnie.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

  29. #29
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    Stan's website has a list of known tires to be ok with sealant, and known tires that are not ok. Some people get lucky and get away with running non-approved tires with stan's, but you risk the blowout. If you have a tire that's not on the list, it's up to you to find out. AFAIK, Schwabble tires are approved for Stan's conversions.

    BM
    "I've come to believe that common sense is not that common" - Matt Timmerman

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    I don't see how you're saying that tubless tires are much heavier (when you think about how much a tube weighs especially) or slower rolling. Maybe I just misinterpreted your post but UST tires ride better and as for slow rolling that seems like more of a function of running lower pressures and tread patterns than anything else.
    Well, I'm not going to research all the exact weights, but look around. Good XC tires, 2.1's are about 450 - 500g. A light tube is 120g, some are MUCH lighter, but I won't run them. But that's besides the point, we are talking about Stan's converted standard tires, so lets say for the sake of the argumetn you can have a solid converted tire + stans + rimstrip for 600g. It's realy hard to find UST tires that are under 700g let alone close to 600g, that severly limits your choices. Now let's talk rims. Just comparing Mavic's offerings (they are good and rock solid) they advertise 395g for the standard rim (we all know they are heavier), and advertise 450g for hte UST rim. That's just for the rim, not counting the much heavier spoke nipple arrangement. So, you could very easily be 200g heavier per wheel running UST, and don't forget to add a little for some Stan's sealant in your UST wheel too, because a lot of people do it anyway. It's just smart, unless you are one of the pirvilaged who live in a thorn free part of the world. I, do not. I risk a flat riding across my front yard- goathead central.

    Rubber compound and tire casing have a lot to do with rolling resistance. The more thicker the casing, the more rubber you have deflecting under you, the more engery is absorbed. This is the reasoning by which they can make the claim that a converted tire has a lower RR than the same tire with a tube. You are only deflecting the casing, not the casing + tube. Paper thin casings will offer you the best rolling resistance, if all else (tread pattern and rubber compound) was equal, but that leaves you the obvious risks.

    BM
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  31. #31
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    thanks guys. Been kinda of out of the sport for a while, getting back in.........

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 13pumps
    UST is the only way to go. I've been on it for over 2yrs (Mavic XM819 UST) and never a problem. Use UST tires with a scoop or 2 of Stans. Unless you are racing the extra weight should not matter.
    For a no headache tubeless setup this is probably the way to go. Mavic UST mounts easy as hell, add Stans and flats are practically a thing of the past. You can get a lighter, or arguably better for less money with another setup but it probably won't be as easy.

    I'm on Stans Olympic rims with the strip with non UST Kendas. I've Used Nevegals, Blue Grooves, and most recently Small Block 8's. Haven't had any problems with them. The one thing that concerns me is that I've never been able to make them hook the bead initially without a compressor. That being said once they're on it's a dream. And since the trails I ride are all in parks, worst case I could just walk back to my car or put in a tube to keep going, but they've never failed me. I haven't had a flat. I don't have leaks. I don't have burping. They've been great. Whatever you pick, find some sealant and you'll be happy as hell.

  33. #33
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    I gotta say... I have run the Stans Rim strips with standard rims for two years two bikes I have burned through a set of Motoraptors, Tioga Factory XC Extremes, Hutchinson Spiders. , Tioga Red Phoniex All on Various terrain, Lava Rocks, Roots, 30 mph downhill with jumps, washboard conditions that rattle everything I ride 5 to 7 days a week. I have never had a tire blow off a rim. I have been so impressed with the system I will never go back to tubes.

  34. #34
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    This is a really good thread. Interesting to me is the comment G-reg "I use both. A little Stans in a Tube and I've got puncture protection with zero hassles of a tubeless set up."

    I run tubes w/ Kenda Neuvgals on DT Swiss XR 4.2s on both my FS & SS bikes. I never had much issue with flats on my FS bike but I was running 45PSI in the rear and 40PSI in the front. Recently I have had much more time on the SS (which is fully rigid) and I run 40PSI or under in the rear and 35PSI or under in the front.

    The last 2 weeks I have had 2 flats on my SS and a buddy told me I might need to go to Stan's. Another buddy has told me DT Swiss makes it own tubeless kit which is even better that Stan's - anyone have experience with these?

    After reading all of this, I am pretty much omitted from the UST option as I invested in the 4.2s, so my only option would be Stan's or DT kits or just take G-reg's advice and use Stan's in a tube and hope for the best. I am not as much worried about weight as I am to prevent flats.

    Any feedback would be appreciated.

  35. #35
    mtbr member
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    One of the biggest benifits, IMO is the ability to run lower pressures. I really can't stress this enough to people I have talked to about converting. Ride is so much more supple (maybe just the lack of tube on tire contact) and grip is tons better.

    I used to run pressures similar to what you do. I am now <35psi and it is GREAT! I am running DT 4.1C's with the DT tubeless kit and spec. 2bliss tires.

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