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Thread: Stans Flow EX

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    Stans Flow EX

    Look what is on the Stan's No Tubes page...wider and heavier (duty).

    Flow EX Rims

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    I wonder what they really weigh? The page you link linked to says 545g and the "more details" page says 490g in the 29" variety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WrecklessREX View Post
    I wonder what they really weigh? The page you link linked to says 545g and the "more details" page says 490g in the 29" variety.
    looks like the 490g is a typo/copied from the black 26" version - the white 26" version shows the same thing and the ERD is the same for both 26" and 29".

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    Cool. My Flows have been holding strong so far. Glad they come in all three wheel sizes AND 36h for 26".

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    My Flows are already overkill for my Trance X1 2011. But why not? 20gr more is nothing at these weights. 13% wider and lower beads can convert to what? 10% lower air pressure? I like the fact that they increased they durability factor as well as performance.

    As do-it-all rims on regular bikes they will be tough to beat because they are very good snow rims also.

  6. #6
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    All of Stan's new rims are moving towards the new BST, which makes me look elsewhere!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PissedOffCil View Post
    All of Stan's new rims are moving towards the new BST, which makes me look elsewhere!
    Why do you say that? At this point I have not paid too much attention to the new design as my Flow rims are still doing well. Why would Stan's elect to change to an inferior system? I see that the new bead hook is smaller and I wondered about it. Have there been problems with the likes of Arch EX rims?
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    Why do you say that? At this point I have not paid too much attention to the new design as my Flow rims are still doing well. Why would Stan's elect to change to an inferior system? I see that the new bead hook is smaller and I wondered about it. Have there been problems with the likes of Arch EX rims?
    The bead seat on the new BST rims is larger than on other rims which means that it doesn't work very well with most UST and tubeless ready tires. The design is meant to be used with regular tires and I'm moving more and more towards TL ready with sidewall protection tires. Therefore it doesn't fit my needs.
    Last edited by PissedOffCil; 06-05-2012 at 11:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PissedOffCil View Post
    All of Stan's new rims are moving towards the new BST, which makes me look elsewhere!
    Certainly does make the WTB Frequency i23 rims more appealing if you plan on using Tubeless Ready or UST tires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PissedOffCil View Post
    The bead seat on the new BST rims is larger than on other rims on the new BST which means that it doesn't work very well with most UST and tubeless ready tires. The design is meant to be used with regualr tires and I'm moving more and more towards TL ready with sidewall protection tires. Therefore it doesn't fit my needs.
    Okay, as I said I haven't paid too much attention but if No-Tubes is concentrating on their rims fitting non-tubeless tires I would also look elsewhere. I will only use a TLR or UST tire tubeless. The problem unfortunately is that there are not too many other options.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    Okay, as I said I haven't paid too much attention but if No-Tubes is concentrating on their rims fitting non-tubeless tires I would also look elsewhere. I will only use a TLR or UST tire tubeless. The problem unfortunately is that there are not too many other options.
    Exactly, I'm looking for a wide, strong, tubeless compatible and light rim for my XC hardtail and it's hard to find! The Velocity Blunt SL I currently run doesn't hold up to my abuse...
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    Sorry for the Typo. I have corrected the 29er rim. Below are the weights.

    Flow EX Rim weights:
    26 Black = 490g
    26 White = 510g
    650b Black = 525g due Aug 1st
    29 Black = 545g
    29 White = 565g
    Pete @ Stan's NOTUBES

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72 View Post
    Certainly does make the WTB Frequency i23 rims more appealing if you plan on using Tubeless Ready or UST tires.
    Yes but the i23 is slightly out of my weight range. I'd like around 400g. A i21 would be perfect...
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    Quote Originally Posted by PissedOffCil View Post
    Yes but the i23 is slightly out of my weight range. I'd like around 400g. A i21 would be perfect...
    Well if they ever become available again...might look at the Pacenti TL28 rims then.

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    "notubes_pete", Thank you for chiming in. From your user name and signature it's clear that you are employed by Satan's Notubes. I would appreciate some input from you on the reason for the change in the BST for these newer rims. Before changing to a 29" bike I would only use UST rims with either UST or TLR tires. Because of many user reviews, two years ago I had a wheelset built with a pair of Flow rims. I have found them to work as well as UST rims when used with TLR tires. I have no interest in using non-tubeless tires.

    I would appreciate if you could confirm what the difference is with these new rims and that they are indeed designed to use non-tubeless tires. If in fact I am going to have problems mounting some of my favorite tires or TLR tires don't work as well, I would not be able to consider them for my next rim purchase.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    I would appreciate if you could confirm what the difference is with these new rims and that they are indeed designed to use non-tubeless tires. If in fact I am going to have problems mounting some of my favorite tires or TLR tires don't work as well, I would not be able to consider them for my next rim purchase.
    +1, my comment above was based on "gossips" read on these forums. Clarifications are welcome!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PissedOffCil View Post
    The bead seat on the new BST rims is larger than on other rims which means that it doesn't work very well with most UST and tubeless ready tires. The design is meant to be used with regular tires and I'm moving more and more towards TL ready with sidewall protection tires
    Please provide evidence for this. A test, an technical article, a logical argument, anything. I find it very hard to believe that the pioneers (and widely considered the best) of non-UST tubeless systems would introduce a new bead socket that performs worse with tubeless ready tires, at the very same time that all of the tire manufacturers are focusing more attention on producing non-UST, tubeless-ready tires. It just makes no sense at all. Sounds like BS to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    I would appreciate if you could confirm what the difference is with these new rims and that they are indeed designed to use non-tubeless tires. If in fact I am going to have problems mounting some of my favorite tires or TLR tires don't work as well, I would not be able to consider them for my next rim purchase.
    The Stan's website can help:

    From the Flow EX page:
    The new Flow EX is lower, wider, and meaner, offering a lower profile sidewall and redesigned Bead Socket Technology for maximum durability and tire seal on even the most punishing of technical trails. We kept the weight low, but the new EX offers 14% thicker sidewalls for maximum dent resistance and a 33% thicker spoke bed for added pull-through strength. Increasing the outside width of the rim to 29.1mm and the interior width to 25.5mm let us reshape the bead socket for an even tighter seal and allowed our internal arch to add even more stiffness to the rim's structure. The new Flow EX: the strongest, fastest rolling, and best sealing tubeless rim available for 26-inch, 29-inch and 650b tires sizes just got even better.

    So the intent of the new bead socket is better tire sealing. Not to be "better for regular tires".

    From the Recommended Tires page:
    Compatible Tubeless Tires:
    All Tubeless tires are compatible:
    UST, LUST, UST-lite, 2Bliss, Tubeless Ready, TNT (tube no tube)

    There are also a few tires listed as "not recommended" because they are either too tight or beads are too weak.

    I think it is safe to say that the new rims are intended to be used with tubeless ready tires. As would be expected.

  19. #19
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    To add to trenchDiggr's post (from the NoTubes website: http://www.notubes.com/RecommendedTires.aspx):
    Not Recommend Tires
    WTB TCS and UST 29 inch tires are too tight for Stan's Notubes rims and NoTubes licensed rims such as Sun Ringle Black Flag.
    I can see this causing some confusion (no fault to NoTubes as it is clearly stated on the website).

    I too would like to hear about the updated bead hook.


    Found this on their website too, and it would eliminate alot of threads on this forum.
    Tech Tip - Tire pressure
    To determine a starting tire pressure when running NoTubes tires with our ZTR rim use this simple formula.
    Rider Weight in pounds divided by 7 = x
    x - 1 = Front tire pressure in PSI
    x + 2 = Rear tire pressure in PSI
    P

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    Honestly if you run 2bliss or any other flavor of tire DO NOT buy these or the arch EX. It is borderline impossible to mount tires to them. Trust me after first hand experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    Found this on their website too, and it would eliminate alot of threads on this forum.
    Tech Tip - Tire pressure
    To determine a starting tire pressure when running NoTubes tires with our ZTR rim use this simple formula.
    Rider Weight in pounds divided by 7 = x
    x - 1 = Front tire pressure in PSI
    x + 2 = Rear tire pressure in PSI
    Be careful with that tech tip. It only applies to NoTubes tires.

    I weigh 220lbs. so my front tire based on the above should be 30psi. and my rear should be 33psi. I ride my front 2.35 Nobby Nic at 24psi. and the rear 2.25 at 27psi. Above 30psi. I would be bouncing off everything.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

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    Honestly if you run 2bliss or any other flavor of tire DO NOT buy these or the arch EX. It is borderline impossible to mount tires to them. Trust me after first hand experience.
    I run 2bliss tires on both the original Flows and the original Arches, and it could not been easier. Add a cup of sealant, pop the tire on, and pump it up with a floor pump. The bead sets immediately, first try. Same for all 4 2bliss tires I've mounted. Piece of cake.

    You have used Arch EXs with 2bliss tires and had mounting issues? What issues? Tire was too tight to mount on the rim? Bead would not set? Bead would not seal?

  23. #23
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    The Arch EX rim is 'wider' (ie bigger diameter) than usual to create a better seal. However, this makes fitting tyres somewhat...problematic...unless you have thumbs of steel.

    Once they are on and the bead is stretched, though, refitting is simple.

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    Now granted, I'm no expert on rims and tires..............

    But, having seen the original BST design on the Stan';s site, it looked to have a more curved design to the bead hook, in order to capture and hold a tire bead that is round in shape, as they all used to be.

    From what i've seen, the new UST and TLR tires, the bead is bigger and more square, and that may be why I was having the blowoff problems with older RaRa's on an Arch rim, the rounded BST just didn't match well with the squared off tire bead.

    Also granted, the new BST on my Arch EX rims is very small, and I've only looked at it with my naked eyes, but the bead hook looks to be more squared off, more of a right angle. This would seem to work better at holding a more square-shaped bead onto the rim.

    Just my two bits.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    Be careful with that tech tip. It only applies to NoTubes tires.
    It is a good starting point for all tires.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    I weigh 220lbs. so my front tire based on the above should be 30psi. and my rear should be 33psi. I ride my front 2.35 Nobby Nic at 24psi. and the rear 2.25 at 27psi. Above 30psi. I would be bouncing off everything.
    As always it's a good starting point. Personal preference, riding type & terrain inform the rest (I have to go higher for landing jumps or casing fold over & crash)

    P

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    Quote Originally Posted by trenchDiggr View Post

    You have used Arch EXs with 2bliss tires and had mounting issues? What issues? Tire was too tight to mount on the rim? Bead would not set? Bead would not seal?
    It was insanely tight. So much that Im buying Maxxis tires so if i get a flat out in the bush I won't have to walk home. I haven't tried using sealent yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trenchDiggr View Post
    I run 2bliss tires on both the original Flows and the original Arches, and it could not been easier. Add a cup of sealant, pop the tire on, and pump it up with a floor pump. The bead sets immediately, first try. Same for all 4 2bliss tires I've mounted. Piece of cake.

    You have used Arch EXs with 2bliss tires and had mounting issues? What issues? Tire was too tight to mount on the rim? Bead would not set? Bead would not seal?
    The second generation BST (Crest, Arch EX, Flow EX) has a larger inner wall diameter than the older 355, Arch, Flow, and Sun-Ringle wheels using the BST design. This makes the tires fit tighter. With a standard folding bead tire, you can stretch the bead enough by hand to mount them. Then the tight fit makes them more secure on the rim and easier to inflate. However tires with a UST spec bead (UST, many Tubeless Ready tires) have a thicker and stronger bead that is more resistant to stretching on purpose so they do not blow off UST spec rims. They also seem to work fine on first generation BST rims (I have run both 2Bliss and TLR tires on my Sun-Ringle Chargers with the BST profile without any issues). But trying to stretch that bead on a larger than UST spec inner wall diameter is near impossible to do in a shop and getting them off out on the trail to insert a tube if your sealant fails is probably not going to happen.

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    Cool. My Flows have been holding strong so far. Glad they come in all three wheel sizes AND 36h for 26"
    It doesn't say that anywhere that I can find. According to the website, the new EX Flows come with the same spoke count as before(in 26 and 29), and that does not include a 26" x 36h.
    Last edited by happyriding; 08-26-2015 at 10:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaupoRider View Post
    It was insanely tight. So much that Im buying Maxxis tires so if i get a flat out in the bush I won't have to walk home. I haven't tried using sealent yet.
    You also had a cloth rim strip mounted which increases the diameter of the bead bench. A cloth rim strip would make UST tires difficult to mount on UST rims.

    That is not to say it is not stupid tight, just that your example has issues.

    P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    You also had a cloth rim strip mounted which increases the diameter of the bead bench. A cloth rim strip would make UST tires difficult to mount on UST rims.

    That is not to say it is not stupid tight, just that your example has issues.

    P
    I should have clarified that. I pulled it off after 5 minutes and used electrical tape. Still almost impossible to fit

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaupoRider View Post
    I should have clarified that. I pulled it off after 5 minutes and used electrical tape. Still almost impossible to fit
    Thanks for the clarification! That helps.

    P

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72 View Post
    The second generation BST (Crest, Arch EX, Flow EX) has a larger inner wall diameter than the older 355, Arch, Flow, and Sun-Ringle wheels using the BST design. This makes the tires fit tighter. With a standard folding bead tire, you can stretch the bead enough by hand to mount them. Then the tight fit makes them more secure on the rim and easier to inflate. However tires with a UST spec bead (UST, many Tubeless Ready tires) have a thicker and stronger bead that is more resistant to stretching on purpose so they do not blow off UST spec rims. They also seem to work fine on first generation BST rims (I have run both 2Bliss and TLR tires on my Sun-Ringle Chargers with the BST profile without any issues). But trying to stretch that bead on a larger than UST spec inner wall diameter is near impossible to do in a shop and getting them off out on the trail to insert a tube if your sealant fails is probably not going to happen.
    I guess that makes sense, let me make sure I understand. When mounting the last part of the bead on a Stan's rim, the opposite part of the tire (180 degrees opposed) that is already mounted on the rim is supposed to be in that little recessed trench in the center of the rim, right? That will give just a little more slack in last the part of the tire that you are trying to pull over the rim. You are saying that the diameter of that little trench is larger on the EX rims, so it is a tighter fit getting that last bit of bead over the edge of the rim?

    Maybe everyone already knows this, but I was shown a little trick dealing with tight fitting tires a few years ago. After you mount most of the tire on the rim, with the unmounted part at 12 o'clock, slowly work both of your hands from the 6 o'clock position up through the 3 and 9 o'clock postions, then up to 12 o'clock, stretching the tire upwards and tightly against the rim as you go. I was amazed how much easier it was to get the last part of the tire over the rim using this simple technique. For what its worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trenchDiggr View Post
    I guess that makes sense, let me make sure I understand. When mounting the last part of the bead on a Stan's rim, the opposite part of the tire (180 degrees opposed) that is already mounted on the rim is supposed to be in that little recessed trench in the center of the rim, right? That will give just a little more slack in last the part of the tire that you are trying to pull over the rim. You are saying that the diameter of that little trench is larger on the EX rims, so it is a tighter fit getting that last bit of bead over the edge of the rim?
    Nailed It

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    I think its your technique that is the problem, not the new rims or tires. I just got a set of the Arch EX and specialized 2bliss tires that mounted normally. Yes tight but no more than is to be expected with a new tubeless ready tire. Once on the rim they pumped up easily with a floor pump. To suggest a design flaw is a bit over the top.

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    I'm a little disappointed that no-one from NoTubes has chimed in to clear this issue up or at least explain the technical differences with these EX rims. It is obvious from a previous post that they have seen this thread. There have been comments/reports that the BSD of the new rims is larger than the previous incarnation. I have searched the NoTubes website but can not find any technical specifications.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

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    I have nothing but 2bliss tires and was going to try the new Flow EX. Can someone please confirm the 2bliss tire mounting issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I have nothing but 2bliss tires and was going to try the new Flow EX. Can someone please confirm the 2bliss tire mounting issue.
    It is not an issue, per se. Just difficult. They will still work.

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    Its not difficult its very difficult. I would love to see someone trying to do it when their tires are wet or muddy

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaupoRider View Post
    Its not difficult its very difficult. I would love to see someone trying to do it when their tires are wet or muddy
    Seriously, once the tyre has been on the rim and the bead has stretched, it is not an issue. The initial fitting of the tyre is difficult, but subsequent removal and refitting is straight forward.

  40. #40
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    another confirmation: new 2bliss tires (and others) are very tight on new arch ex rim, but easier once stretched out. hard to break the bead even with the tire deflated, which is impressive. carry a lever on rides. its tight but not impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalom View Post
    Seriously, once the tyre has been on the rim and the bead has stretched, it is not an issue. The initial fitting of the tyre is difficult, but subsequent removal and refitting is straight forward.
    To be fair I haven't tried to refit the tires. I must give that a go.

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    Nope Still tight as a nuns c***. Just popped on some Maxxis Ardent/Ignitor's and they went on with a single flick from a Tire Lever

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    "notubes_pete", Thank you for chiming in. From your user name and signature it's clear that you are employed by Satan's Notubes. I would appreciate some input from you on the reason for the change in the BST for these newer rims. Before changing to a 29" bike I would only use UST rims with either UST or TLR tires. Because of many user reviews, two years ago I had a wheelset built with a pair of Flow rims. I have found them to work as well as UST rims when used with TLR tires. I have no interest in using non-tubeless tires.

    I would appreciate if you could confirm what the difference is with these new rims and that they are indeed designed to use non-tubeless tires. If in fact I am going to have problems mounting some of my favorite tires or TLR tires don't work as well, I would not be able to consider them for my next rim purchase.
    Hi, Yes I have worked at Stan's for a long time. This new BST is an improvement and UST tires will fit better on the new designed rim. Due to the shape of the Flow tires should mount easier then they do on the Crest or Arch EX.
    26" tires UST is not a problem. Some of the 29er tires might fit harder then others.
    Do you have the size and model of the TLR tires you are looking to fit?
    Pete @ Stan's NOTUBES

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    Quote Originally Posted by notubes_pete View Post
    Hi, Yes I have worked at Stan's for a long time. This new BST is an improvement and UST tires will fit better on the new designed rim. Due to the shape of the Flow tires should mount easier then they do on the Crest or Arch EX.
    26" tires UST is not a problem. Some of the 29er tires might fit harder then others.
    Do you have the size and model of the TLR tires you are looking to fit?
    Thanks for the reply. I only ride 29". I'm currently using a pair of Flow rims with Schwalbe Nobby Nic TLR 2.35 front and 2.25 rear. The 2.35 was quite easy to fit but the 2.25 was a little tight. It needed a plastic tire lever. Not an issue but if the new rims are harder to mount, I'd be a bit concerned. I've also used Specialized Purgatory 2Bliss 2.2. They were quite easy to fit. The problem is, who knows what tires I'd want to fit next time.

    At this point I'd only get a set of Flow EX rims for new wheels. The Flows I have have been great but I'm a little concerned as I read quite a few people saying they have problems mounting TLR tires. So are the BSD of the EX rims bigger?
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    Thanks for the reply. I only ride 29". I'm currently using a pair of Flow rims with Schwalbe Nobby Nic TLR 2.35 front and 2.25 rear. The 2.35 was quite easy to fit but the 2.25 was a little tight. It needed a plastic tire lever. Not an issue but if the new rims are harder to mount, I'd be a bit concerned. I've also used Specialized Purgatory 2Bliss 2.2. They were quite easy to fit. The problem is, who knows what tires I'd want to fit next time.

    At this point I'd only get a set of Flow EX rims for new wheels. The Flows I have have been great but I'm a little concerned as I read quite a few people saying they have problems mounting TLR tires. So are the BSD of the EX rims bigger?

    The BSD is not bigger on the Flow EX 29er rims. The hook is shorter so they tires will mount with less trouble.
    Pete @ Stan's NOTUBES

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by notubes_pete View Post
    Hi, Yes I have worked at Stan's for a long time. This new BST is an improvement and UST tires will fit better on the new designed rim. Due to the shape of the Flow tires should mount easier then they do on the Crest or Arch EX.
    26" tires UST is not a problem. Some of the 29er tires might fit harder then others.
    Do you have the size and model of the TLR tires you are looking to fit?
    How is the shape different from the Arch EX except for width?
    Check out my SportTracks plugins for some training aid software.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notubes_pete View Post
    The BSD is not bigger on the Flow EX 29er rims. The hook is shorter so the tires will mount with less trouble.
    Thanks for clearing that up. I then will not hesitate getting a set of Flow EX rims.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

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    Stan's in the Technical Document ZTR Rim Setup Options has raised the spoke tension on Flow, ArchEX an others from 90 to 100KgF. The "33% thicker spoke bed for added pull-through strength" suggests a higher allowable tension, maybe 125.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by notubes_pete View Post
    Do you have the size and model of the TLR tires you are looking to fit?
    Specialized Butcher 2.3 Control, Eskar 2.3 Control and Purgatory Armadillo Elite 2.2. All in 26'ers with 2bliss bead of course.

    Thx.
    Ride On!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    Stan's in the Technical Document ZTR Rim Setup Options has raised the spoke tension on Flow, ArchEX an others from 90 to 100KgF. The "33% thicker spoke bed for added pull-through strength" suggests a higher allowable tension, maybe 125.
    Hi, We are updating the document again. The Arch EX and Flow EX can use 100-125kg of tention.
    Pete @ Stan's NOTUBES

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