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  1. #1
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    So SLOW now!! Recommendations?

    Hey guys, having some trouble picking the right tires apparently...I thought I had researched it all to perfection & landed on the perfect set...but I didn't. I'm on a 26" Giant Anthem2, and for the past 2 seasons I had been riding a set of Michelin Dry x2 2.0" tires front & rear. My biggest complaint with 'em was grip, they'd wash out in corners, slip on roots & rocks, and if there was any mud, fugettaboutit! I had to air 'em down to 24 & 26 psi to get decent traction, but then kept getting pinch flats.

    So, I decided its time to convert to tubeless & get a new set of tires that won't slip so bad. Bugged entirely too many riders on local trails, read entirely too many reviews, and thought I had picked the perfect tires. decided on a Maxxis Ignitor UST 2.35 in front & 2.10 in back. Converted to Stan's with relative ease for a first timer & anxiously hit the trail.

    I was AMAZED at how grippy they were. First ride was on a particularly muddy day & I had control like it was bone dry, loved it! But I couldn't keep up with my buddies. Figured it was just lazy winter legs & a trail I don't ride as often. Since then I've been to my more regular trails a couple times solo & I'm working harder to get moving, people are catching up to me, and I find myself on the middle chain ring for stretches I always used to go big & I'm still gasping for it. This is not conditioning...the bike is slow now! I love the grip, but come on...I can't slow down to achieve it. They're noticeably heavier than the michelin's were...maybe this is the tire itself, maybe it's the stan's, I dunno, but my bet is the tire is the culprit.

    What do you guys suggest? I'm thinking I keep the 2.35 Ignitor on the front for its awesome grip, but put something faster on the rear? Small block 8? Crossmark? Nevegal? I hear people suggest lots of tires, my goal originally was as much grip as possible, I guess I should've been shopping for a balance of grip & speed.

  2. #2
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    The Michelin Dry you were running before is one of the fastest rolling tires available, so moving to a different tire will most likely be a slow down.

    Perhaps look to a Michelin Race'r in their single compound (not Advanced). They are a replacement for the Dry tires and cornering is pretty amazing. They suffer a bit in techy climbs, loose braking and greasy mud.

    P

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    The Michelin Dry you were running before is one of the fastest rolling tires available, so moving to a different tire will most likely be a slow down.

    Perhaps look to a Michelin Race'r in their single compound (not Advanced). They are a replacement for the Dry tires and cornering is pretty amazing. They suffer a bit in techy climbs, loose braking and greasy mud.

    P
    Why not the Advanced version?
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  4. #4
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    Agreed. Go advancer or else you'll have a bit of a problem on wet wood.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Why not the Advanced version?
    Advanced use a softer rubber cap over the harder rubber. So they roll a touch slower, and on the rear wear out faster. I got 3 months out of a Race'r 2.25 UST Advanced - it wore quick on the rear. The softer rubber = higher grip tho, notably in conditions like Millfox point out.

    P

  6. #6
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    I've never mixed & matched tires before, but lots of people seem to do that, would it make sense to try the Race'r or something similar on the rear & keep the Ignitor up front for grip, or does the front tire slow you down a lot too when it's too knobby?

    So many people locally have talked about the nevagal & smallblock 8...anybody know how they stack up against the Dry I had before for speed & the Ignitor I have now for grip?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill-E-BoB View Post
    So many people locally have talked about the nevagal & smallblock 8...anybody know how they stack up against the Dry I had before for speed & the Ignitor I have now for grip?
    Nevegal is sloooooow. But very grippy. SB8 is slower than the Michelin tires but it also grips way beyond it's looks. I've run both the Dry2 and SB8.

    P

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    Advanced use a softer rubber cap over the harder rubber. So they roll a touch slower, and on the rear wear out faster. I got 3 months out of a Race'r 2.25 UST Advanced - it wore quick on the rear. The softer rubber = higher grip tho, notably in conditions like Millfox point out.

    P
    Gotcha. Thanks.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill-E-BoB View Post
    I've never mixed & matched tires before, but lots of people seem to do that, would it make sense to try the Race'r or something similar on the rear & keep the Ignitor up front for grip, or does the front tire slow you down a lot too when it's too knobby?

    So many people locally have talked about the nevagal & smallblock 8...anybody know how they stack up against the Dry I had before for speed & the Ignitor I have now for grip?
    A grippy/slow rear tire will slow you down more than a grippy/slow front tire. In fact, a fast/less grippy front tire can make you slower in the twisty stuff.

  10. #10
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    I agree the Nevegal is a slow rolling tire!

    I just switched to Conti X-Kings, but only have 1 ride in on them...so far I'm happy, they roll nice, corner well and have good traction. I have not tested them in the mud yet.

    -RW

  11. #11
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    The 2.1 ignitor isnt a slow tire though. If you're feeling serious drag with that setup, something else might be wrong.

  12. #12
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    Try a 2.1 Monorail. I tried the 2.1 Ignitor as a rear and it was nothing special in any respect - and the volume was small for a 2.1

    I like Maxxis tyres but I'm not a fan of the Ignitor.

    The Ikon 2.2 is another faster rolling rear with good volume.
    My Cannondale Lefty keeps failing....

  13. #13
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    I picked up a 2.1 Crossmark to try on the rear last night, looks like it'll have tons less resistance to it & I got it cheap from a local rider so its cheaper to test than buying another new tire..unfortunately it's not the UST and the sidewalls are wayyyy too soft for me to get mounted tubeless with a floor pump so I took it to a bike shop today at lunch to use their compressor & they couldn't do it either. I'm just going to try it with a tube when I get home from work & see if I even like the tire.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    The 2.1 ignitor isnt a slow tire though. If you're feeling serious drag with that setup, something else might be wrong.
    Really? Cuz seriously it's like I'm dragging a parachute. What else could be wrong? All that changed was the tires...I taped the rims, put the tires on & added stans, & that's it. What could I have screwed up?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill-E-BoB View Post
    Really? Cuz seriously it's like I'm dragging a parachute. What else could be wrong? All that changed was the tires...I taped the rims, put the tires on & added stans, & that's it. What could I have screwed up?
    Some Ignitors are a fasst 70a, some are a softer & slower 60a rubber. They also have a bit spikey knobs which penetrate the ground - this can feel very slow in damp, winter, soft ground.

    P

  15. #15
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    Hmm, interesting. Mine are 70a, so I'm glad I didn't get the slower compound...The ground right now is definitely damp winter soft ground though...there's been so much rain lately they even closed the trails for 2 days to let it dry out a bit after last weeks rain. The first day I ran the new tires was down right sloshy mud, never would've even made it through some sections with the old dry x2's I was running. It seemed relatively dry to me the next 2 runs, though I'm sure it wasn't dry like summer time. Even so, nobody else in my group slowed down like I did.

  16. #16
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    What rims are you running? I'm now using Easton Haven carbon rims, so no tape required, but I didn't want to suffer the weight penalty of a genuine UST tire, and in my conditions I don't need thick sidewalls. The couple of hundred grams I save by not going UST is hugely noticeable on the trail.
    I fitted a brand new Maxxis Aspen 2.25 tire front, and my used 2.1 Crossmark on the back. The new Aspen had a nice tight bead and aired up perfectly with a gas station pump. The bead on the Crossmark wasn't quite as tight after a few months riding, so I filleted 20" tube, cut out the shraeder valve and stretched it around the back rim. (ghetto styles) The UST valve fitted through the hole and sealed nicely. This allowed me to get a really nice tight fit with the back tire, and that too aired up easily and sealed immediately with minimal weight penalty.

    I do recommend the Aspen as a fast rolling tire with good volume that grips a lot better than the low knobs would lead you to expect.
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  17. #17
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    You went from a x/c race tread, 600 gram tire front and year - to a more aggressive tread 835g F / 700g R. The one place you could lose some weight is to not get UST tires. UST tires are for UST rims that don't use sealant. Most tires now are tubeless ready, which means they have a bead that is designed for tubeless applications but they require sealant. You can't have it both ways, there's always a compromise between fast rolling and grip, but you're not going anywhere fast if your on the ground or walking your bike.

  18. #18
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    I just picked up a set of the Michelin Racer'r tires and mounted them up tubeless last week. Of course no sooner than I mounted the new rubber and our temps dropped near 0 degs and we picked up about 6 inches of snow. So now I'll need to wait a week or so for things to warm up again back into the 30's. If you do order a set of the Michelin's be careful on the size. I ordered the 2.1 and after a couple days the now measure 2.2. Only comment I can make right now is they are very easy to track stand on.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bshallard View Post
    What rims are you running? I'm now using Easton Haven carbon rims, so no tape required, but I didn't want to suffer the weight penalty of a genuine UST tire, and in my conditions I don't need thick sidewalls. The couple of hundred grams I save by not going UST is hugely noticeable on the trail.
    I fitted a brand new Maxxis Aspen 2.25 tire front, and my used 2.1 Crossmark on the back. The new Aspen had a nice tight bead and aired up perfectly with a gas station pump. The bead on the Crossmark wasn't quite as tight after a few months riding, so I filleted 20" tube, cut out the shraeder valve and stretched it around the back rim. (ghetto styles) The UST valve fitted through the hole and sealed nicely. This allowed me to get a really nice tight fit with the back tire, and that too aired up easily and sealed immediately with minimal weight penalty.

    I do recommend the Aspen as a fast rolling tire with good volume that grips a lot better than the low knobs would lead you to expect.
    I've got Mavic Crossrides, cleaned 'em & put Stan's yellow rim tape on & had no problem at all mounting the Ignitor UST's, even with a floor pump it was easy peazy. They sealed up well & didn't leak at all. For now I'm leaving the 2.35 Ignitor on the front while I sort out what to do with the rear.

    The 2.1 Crossmark I got for it has about 6 miles on it, shipped with a new Santa Cruz & the guy I got it from swapped to some other tire & didn't need it. It's not UST & I can't get both sides of the bead to sit up on the bead shelf no matter what I try...neither could the dude at the bike shop. I guess the difference in beads designed for tubeless is that when the tire is at rest it wants to pull open? This Crossmark & my Michelin's both just collapse in so the beads touch each other when not on a rim. The UST ignitors spread wide, so getting 'em to seal against the bead shelf was easy.

    The Aspen sounds great, took a look on Maxxis's website & they have a video with riders saying all the things I wish I could say about my tires.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff in Bend View Post
    You went from a x/c race tread, 600 gram tire front and year - to a more aggressive tread 835g F / 700g R. The one place you could lose some weight is to not get UST tires. UST tires are for UST rims that don't use sealant. Most tires now are tubeless ready, which means they have a bead that is designed for tubeless applications but they require sealant. You can't have it both ways, there's always a compromise between fast rolling and grip, but you're not going anywhere fast if your on the ground or walking your bike.
    Help me understand the weight thing...I know these are dumb questions but it's all new territory for me. if I had a 600g tire with a tube in it, aren't tubes around 250-300g? I don't know what the yellow rim tape weighs vs what I had before but it can't be much & if stans is the same density as water, that was probably only 80g or so for the sealant...so wouldn't my total weight only be a little more than it was before? Maybe 50g or so? Is the bead of a tubeless ready tire like I described above, where it naturally wants to push outward so its easier to get over the bead shelf?

    I should mention, it *feels* heavier than before, I noticed that as i was putting the tires back on the bike for the first time, and lifting the bike into my truck...but I figured that was in my head because I'm staring at these big ol' knobby tires. Maybe that wasn't my imagination & these things really are super heavy?

  20. #20
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    [/QUOTE]Help me understand the weight thing...I know these are dumb questions but it's all new territory for me. if I had a 600g tire with a tube in it, aren't tubes around 250-300g? I don't know what the yellow rim tape weighs vs what I had before but it can't be much & if stans is the same density as water, that was probably only 80g or so for the sealant...so wouldn't my total weight only be a little more than it was before? Maybe 50g or so? Is the bead of a tubeless ready tire like I described above, where it naturally wants to push outward so its easier to get over the bead shelf?

    I should mention, it *feels* heavier than before, I noticed that as i was putting the tires back on the bike for the first time, and lifting the bike into my truck...but I figured that was in my head because I'm staring at these big ol' knobby tires. Maybe that wasn't my imagination & these things really are super heavy?[/QUOTE]

    I don't know what a tube weighs. The bottom line is you have a slower rolling tire with much better traction. Quit over thinking it, go ride , and enjoy the traction qualities of your new tires. If you're slower climbing and can't keep up with your buddies get stronger.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff in Bend View Post
    I don't know what a tube weighs. The bottom line is you have a slower rolling tire with much better traction. Quit over thinking it, go ride , and enjoy the traction qualities of your new tires. If you're slower climbing and can't keep up with your buddies get stronger.
    Dude did I catch you on a bad day or something? Your last post was helpful & sounded like you had knowledge I could glean about tire weight. If responding to your post is over-thinking, what's that make your post? If you don't know how the weight of tubes plays into it, don't feel bad, you're no worse off than I was, you don't have to get defensive & start trolling. From what I see in google, yeah a standard bontrager tube is like 250g so unless I'm missing something, the weight difference is negligible...

    Keeping up with my buddies was never an issue before so I highly doubt "get stronger" is the fix. It's a simple issue. Fast tires were washing out too much in the turns, a grippy tire has cut almost 2 minutes off my time on a 7 mile loop, obviously I need to find a happy middle ground & that's why I'm here.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill-E-BoB View Post
    I've got Mavic Crossrides, cleaned 'em & put Stan's yellow rim tape on & had no problem at all mounting the Ignitor UST's, even with a floor pump it was easy peazy. They sealed up well & didn't leak at all. For now I'm leaving the 2.35 Ignitor on the front while I sort out what to do with the rear.

    The 2.1 Crossmark I got for it has about 6 miles on it, shipped with a new Santa Cruz & the guy I got it from swapped to some other tire & didn't need it. It's not UST & I can't get both sides of the bead to sit up on the bead shelf no matter what I try...neither could the dude at the bike shop. I guess the difference in beads designed for tubeless is that when the tire is at rest it wants to pull open? This Crossmark & my Michelin's both just collapse in so the beads touch each other when not on a rim. The UST ignitors spread wide, so getting 'em to seal against the bead shelf was easy.

    The Aspen sounds great, took a look on Maxxis's website & they have a video with riders saying all the things I wish I could say about my tires.


    Help me understand the weight thing...I know these are dumb questions but it's all new territory for me. if I had a 600g tire with a tube in it, aren't tubes around 250-300g? I don't know what the yellow rim tape weighs vs what I had before but it can't be much & if stans is the same density as water, that was probably only 80g or so for the sealant...so wouldn't my total weight only be a little more than it was before? Maybe 50g or so? Is the bead of a tubeless ready tire like I described above, where it naturally wants to push outward so its easier to get over the bead shelf?

    I should mention, it *feels* heavier than before, I noticed that as i was putting the tires back on the bike for the first time, and lifting the bike into my truck...but I figured that was in my head because I'm staring at these big ol' knobby tires. Maybe that wasn't my imagination & these things really are super heavy?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill-E-BoB View Post
    Dude did I catch you on a bad day or something? Your last post was helpful & sounded like you had knowledge I could glean about tire weight. If responding to your post is over-thinking, what's that make your post? If you don't know how the weight of tubes plays into it, don't feel bad, you're no worse off than I was, you don't have to get defensive & start trolling. From what I see in google, yeah a standard bontrager tube is like 250g so unless I'm missing something, the weight difference is negligible...

    Keeping up with my buddies was never an issue before so I highly doubt "get stronger" is the fix. It's a simple issue. Fast tires were washing out too much in the turns, a grippy tire has cut almost 2 minutes off my time on a 7 mile loop, obviously I need to find a happy middle ground & that's why I'm here.
    I'm sorry if I came off to you in a negative way it wasn't my intention and I don't think I was being defensive or trolling.

    As I said in my first post there's always a compromise between fast, traction, durability, and cost; only you can figure out where that middle ground is based on your capabilities, trail conditions, expectations, etc. This compromise relates to everything on your bike as well.

    In your OP you said "I was AMAZED at how grippy they were, but I couldn't keep up with my buddies", so getting stronger seemed liked the logical solution.

    You said "my biggest complaint with 'em was grip, they'd wash out in corners, slip on roots & rocks, and if there was any mud, fugettaboutit", were you keeping up with your buddies when this was happening?

    I thought you were over thinking because it seems like a simple issue. A heavier more aggressive tire is going to roll slower with the added benefits of more traction and control. You seem to like these added benefits so enjoy them, pedal harder, get stronger and enjoy the best of both worlds.

  23. #23
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    Yeah, with the old tires keeping up was no concern at all. When I was slipping on turns & roots, I was catching & passing 'em on fast sections. Only time I couldn't keep up then was on a long wet uphill because I just couldn't get enough traction to make good time.

    Not to be a smartass, but if I were enjoying the slow rolling grip machine, I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place...I'd have started one that said "Wow I love this new set of tires I got and the peace & quiet I get from not keeping up with the group anymore." I'm not going to buy every tire on the market to decide which is right for me when there are hundreds of members here with knowledge to share & help me narrow it down, that's crazy. That Aspen tire sounds great & now that I've had so much input from everybody, I even understand why I want it.

    I may still not understand how an 835g UST tire would be heavier than a 600g tire and 250g tube...but I do understand enough about tires now & the various rolling resistance factors and trade offs of more aggressive treads. And I know that if you think "get stronger" is the solution to run as fast on Ignitors as Dry 2s, we should all be on your exercise program because that's a hell of a feat!

  24. #24
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    He's trying to help you. And I am too: I agree with him you are overthinking this or at least there is too much focus on tires and too little on other aspects of bike riding.

    Next thing you know forum users (with all good intentions) start talking about the rolling resistance differences of rubber compound and stuff like that! Come on... have a look at the bigger picture.

    There is no magic do it all tire. What works best is very personal and depends on the kind of riding and terrain. Tires that are really fast have less grip and are less puncture resistance. Tires that are really grippy are heavier and roll less well.

    Find a good intermediate tire for your trail conditions. If you could ride on those Michelins, but you needed a little more grip, light, supple but allround XC tires will do. Take care they have a little more knob than a semi-slick like the Michelin that you had. That means no Aspens - those will have less grip than the Michelin's.

    Besides tires, when I read a forum question like this, I ask myself: Did he lose grip with the Michelin's because his bike handling needs improvement? Does too high tire pressure have something to do with it? Both pretty consistent with getting dropped on technical stuff and being fast on the easier, fast bits.

    It may also be the case that your mates are riding well below their limits and you are on it. You implied you were as fit as ever, but trust me... I have lots of experience with racers to know that some people just do not pick up the signs of fatigue (or not willing to). Less fitness also does not have to come from too little or too much riding too; stress at work or at home, a lingering virus infection, allergy, too little sleep, ... be honest! (Not trying to pursuade you to write all about your personal life here... That's not my business. Just be open to other factors that could have something to do with it.)

    Please think about this: No rider gets dropped because of the difference between a fast tire and a slow tire, if those tires are in the same league (so XC tires vs XC tires, not XC vs DH). There must be something else. Too much focus on the tires and block the oppertunity for yourself to learn what will improve your riding more than any tire.

    The answer may well be to work on technical skills while on more knobby, but slower tires. Save energy on the technical bits of the trail and have some left to keep up when it's fast.

    Try to find the root cause(s) of what you are experiencing and be honest about them. Chances are it's not the tires, that's what I am trying to tell you.
    Last edited by JeroenK; 01-25-2013 at 01:58 AM.

  25. #25
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    I have also found that the ignitor to be a slower rolling tyre. As a result I only run it on the front as part of a tubeless setup for the extra grip in corners, and a maxxis crossmark in the rear.

    The crossmark is by far a much quicker rolling tyre, but gets a bit squirrely if you are hooking corners in the mud.

    Currently running a 2.10 Ignitor folding on the front and 2.10 Crossmark EXO folding on the rear and loving this combination. Both are non-UST tyres. The EXO is slightly heavier than the EVO version, however offers double thickness sidewall - a big deal for me as I always seem to attract rear sidewall damage.

    Also worth noting is that the crossmark appears wider than the ignitor, even though they are apparently the same size. Will be running this combination for this years XC season. Last year I ran the RoRo/RaRa combination with great success. If you find the ignitors slow, then steer away from the Neverolls (Nevegals)

    Current setup on my Anthem:
    Burning fat, not oil.

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