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  1. #1
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    Sapim CX-Ray or DT Aerolite

    Hello

    I am looking for spokes for my new set of wheels. I'll be riding Notubes Crest rims with Tune King hubs.
    Any specific appreciation, recommendation, like or dislike for the Sapim CX-Ray or DT Aerolite spokes??

    Best to all...

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by hmpoliveira
    Hello

    I am looking for spokes for my new set of wheels. I'll be riding Notubes Crest rims with Tune King hubs.
    Any specific appreciation, recommendation, like or dislike for the Sapim CX-Ray or DT Aerolite spokes??

    Best to all...
    Love the CX-Rays.

    Will not use the rims.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Love the CX-Rays.

    Will not use the rims.
    Why would you not use the rims? Any bad experience?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by hmpoliveira
    Why would you not use the rims? Any bad experience?
    Too low of a spoke tension limit and I feel the design overstresses the tire bead in a manner the tires are not designed to be used.
    mtbtires.com
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Too low of a spoke tension limit and I feel the design overstresses the tire bead in a manner the tires are not designed to be used.

    Which rim would be a better option then?? Have you got any expirience with Aerolite spokes??

  6. #6
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    I love my Crest rims, so far...

  7. #7
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by hmpoliveira
    Which rim would be a better option then?? Have you got any expirience with Aerolite spokes??
    I prefer something like the BOnty Race Lite TLR (true tubeless).

    Have not used the DTs but the spec is identical to the CX-Ray and I have never had an issue with DT spokes (or Sapim).
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    I prefer something like the BOnty Race Lite TLR (true tubeless).

    Have not used the DTs but the spec is identical to the CX-Ray and I have never had an issue with DT spokes (or Sapim).

    Those rims can not be sold separately (at least in Europe)
    Thanks for your great help so far...

  9. #9
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    just built myself some cx-rays/crest29/Hope, couldn't be happier. But yes, these rims don't like these spokes.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by banksd1983
    just built myself some cx-rays/crest29/Hope, couldn't be happier. But yes, these rims don't like these spokes.

    Why you say that??

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by hmpoliveira
    Why you say that??
    he must be joking. spokes don't have opinions of other components.
    there is nothing about a bladed spoke that makes it incompatible with any rim.

    OP - aerolites & CX Rays are like in weight, geometry, and quality. I can't think of anything to recommend one over the other. Revolutions & Lasers belong to that group and cost a fraction of their bladed cousins.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  12. #12
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    yeah, that got worded incorrectly. Shiggy touched on it earlier, and Notubes mentions it on their forum, the lower "recommended" spoke tension on their rims is 95-100kgf, whereas cx-rays typically build better at higher numbers. That's just what they say though.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by banksd1983
    yeah, that got worded incorrectly. Shiggy touched on it earlier, and Notubes mentions it on their forum, the lower "recommended" spoke tension on their rims is 95-100kgf, whereas cx-rays typically build better at higher numbers. That's just what they say though.
    what does "build better" mean and why is that?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  14. #14
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    More tension = wheel flexes less and holds its true better. But not so good if it means the spoke nipples deform or crack the rim wall and cause the rim to fail. Less tension can be okay if you use more (and thinner) spokes (since less likely to be detensioned), and if you look at the Stan's wheel specs they often use 32 1.8x1.5x1.8mm spokes.

    Bottom line is that more spokes and more tension gives a stronger wheel if the rim is up to it, but it's okay to have a "strong enough" wheel that's up to your use and save some weight by reducing the safety margin by a reasonable amount.

    What's strong enough will depend on your weight and riding style, and conditions where you ride, so it's hard to make solid recommendations for others.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by satanas
    More tension = wheel flexes less
    Not true. Tension does not affect stiffness (flex). Read Question #1 here.
    Quote Originally Posted by satanas
    Bottom line is that more spokes and more tension gives a stronger wheel if the rim is up to it, but it's okay to have a "strong enough" wheel that's up to your use and save some weight by reducing the safety margin by a reasonable amount.
    wise words.
    Quote Originally Posted by satanas
    What's strong enough will depend on your weight and riding style, and conditions where you ride, so it's hard to make solid recommendations for others.
    more of same.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  16. #16
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    Not trying to stir up any *****, but this is what DT and Sapim have to say on the subject:

    Sapim Email:
    Hello, I am considering CX-Spokes for a wheel using a Stans Arch rim. This rim has a maximum spoke tension of 1000N. I've been told that CX-Ray spokes need to be built to much higher spoke tension (1200N+) in order to function properly.

    Can you confirm or deny this?

    Will I have any problems with CX-Rays tensioned at 1000N?


    Yes indeed, the best way to assemble a wheel with cx-ray spokes is to work with higher tensions. Tensions of + 130 kg on the gear side of the rear wheel and + 120 kg on the disc side of the front wheel or + 100 kg for a race wheel or MTB without disc.

    The lifetime of the spoke will decrease if you use tensions below the advised ones. Also the stability of the wheel will not be that good. It has everything to do with the high elasticity of the spokes.

    I would not recommend to use cx-ray spokes on a rear wheel with tensions below the 130 kg ( on the gear side).

    1000 N spoke tension on the rim. Are you sure that the rim can’t hold more? This means that the rims is not a strong rim. We often see this kind of strengths on single walled city rims. Double walled aluminum rims are in general perfect to use with these higher tensions. Softest alu rims are limited to 120 kg. The higher qualities often from 120 up to 150 kg. The very good ones even more.

    Best regards

    Wim


    DT Email:
    Hello, I am considering Aerolite spokes for a wheel using a Stans Arch rim. This rim has a maximum spoke tension of 1000N. I've been told that Aerolite spokes need to be built to much higher spoke tension (1200N+) in order to function properly. Can you confirm or deny this? Will I have any problems with Aerolites tensioned at 1000N? Thank you for time

    Hello

    First of all thank you for your interest in our products.

    Regarding your question I can confirm you E-Mail. The spoke tension on wheels build with aerolite spokes should be higher.

    When you will build a wheel with less tension the stability will not be high enough when riding corners as the lateral stiffness of a bladed spoke will be less then at a round spoke.
    Have a nice day and enjoy riding your bike.

    Freundliche Grüsse / Regards / Salutations
    Friso Lorscheider
    Int. Service & Race Support Manager
    DT Swiss AG
    Last edited by jager7; 08-26-2010 at 03:26 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jager7
    Not trying to stir up any *****, but this is what DT and Sapim have to say on the subject:
    No ***** stirring attempts perceived. Asking questions of knowledgeable people is a way to get answers. What's shocking to me is that representatives of reputable spoke manufacturing companies could have such misunderstandings of wheel systems. It's no wonder this misinformation trickles down to shops and consumers. These service and/or technical support reps likely have not had any formal training on the subject, but there must be people at DT and Sapim that know what these people are saying is wrong, and IMO they should have the basics down. I'll point out what is clearly wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by jager7
    Sapim Email:
    Hello, I am considering CX-Spokes for a wheel using a Stans Arch rim. This rim has a maximum spoke tension of 1000N. I've been told that CX-Ray spokes need to be built to much higher spoke tension (1200N+) in order to function properly.

    Can you confirm or deny this?

    Will I have any problems with CX-Rays tensioned at 1000N?


    Yes indeed, the best way to assemble a wheel with cx-ray spokes is to work with higher tensions. Tensions of + 130 kg on the gear side of the rear wheel and + 120 kg on the disc side of the front wheel or + 100 kg for a race wheel or MTB without disc.

    The lifetime of the spoke will decrease if you use tensions below the advised ones. Also the stability of the wheel will not be that good. It has everything to do with the high elasticity of the spokes.

    Highly elastic spokes (which CX Rays and Aerolites are due to their low cross-sectional area) tolerate lower spoke tension better than thicker spokes. At a given build tension, an elastic spoke will have stretched further, meaning that when the rim deflects due to load, the spoke can absorb that deflection without going slack to a greater extent than a thick spoke, which will not have stretched as far. The increased ability to absord deflection also translates into better load sharing between adjacent spokes.
    Why would you go with lower tension for a race wheel? Why is lower tension acceptable on a non-disc wheel? Nonsensical & conflicting information.
    Quote Originally Posted by jager7
    I would not recommend to use cx-ray spokes on a rear wheel with tensions below the 130 kg ( on the gear side).

    I guess what he's saying is that you need to choose your rim based on your spokes, which is backward from how most people do it. What he's also saying is that no rim from Mavic or Stan can be used to build 3X wheels and that American Classic, in offering wheelsets with CX Rays at tension below the Sapim suggestion, builds wheels with poor stability.
    *edit* No DT Swiss mtb rims either
    Quote Originally Posted by jager7
    1000 N spoke tension on the rim. Are you sure that the rim can’t hold more? This means that the rims is not a strong rim. We often see this kind of strengths on single walled city rims. Double walled aluminum rims are in general perfect to use with these higher tensions. Softest alu rims are limited to 120 kg. The higher qualities often from 120 up to 150 kg. The very good ones even more.
    I'd like to know how many "very good" rims there are with max tension specs above 150 kgf. There is no reason to build wheels that tight for disc-braked mountain bikes. 12 spoke road wheels? Maybe, but I don't mess with those.
    It's a shame.
    Quote Originally Posted by jager7
    DT Email:
    Hello, I am considering Aerolite spokes for a wheel using a Stans Arch rim. This rim has a maximum spoke tension of 1000N. I've been told that Aerolite spokes need to be built to much higher spoke tension (1200N+) in order to function properly. Can you confirm or deny this? Will I have any problems with Aerolites tensioned at 1000N? Thank you for time

    Hello

    First of all thank you for your interest in our products.

    Regarding your question I can confirm you E-Mail. The spoke tension on wheels build with aerolite spokes should be higher.

    Same point about elastic spokes tolerating lower tension better.
    Quote Originally Posted by jager7
    When you will build a wheel with less tension the stability will not be high enough when riding corners as the lateral stiffness of a bladed spoke will be less then at a round spoke. Have a nice day and enjoy riding your bike.
    He didn't even answer your question, but still managed to provide misinformation. I've heard this one about spoke shape and lateral stiffness before, and to be honest, it's laughable. The shape of the spoke has no effect on lateral stiffness. What matters is the spoke's elasticity, which is independent of shape, obviously.
    It's unfortunate that a consumer can't get reliable information from the manufacturers of the products he intends to use. I can't be surprised when people regurgitate misinformation that they're getting straight from the source.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 08-26-2010 at 09:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    No ***** stirring attempts percieved. Asking questions of knowledgeable people is a way to get answers. What's shocking to me is that representatives of reputable spoke manufacturing companies could have such misunderstandings of wheel systems. It's no wonder this misinformation trickles down to shops and consumers. These service and/or technical support reps likely have not had any formal training on the subject, but there must be people at DT and Sapim that know what these people are saying is wrong, and IMO they should have the basics down. I'll point out what is clearly wrong.
    [/color]
    Highly elastic spokes (which CX Rays and Aerolites are due to their low cross-sectional area) tolerate lower spoke tension better than thicker spokes. At a given build tension, an elastic spoke will have stretched further, meaning that when the rim deflects due to load, the spoke can absorb that deflection without going slack to a greater extent than a thick spoke, which will not have stretched as far. The increased ability to absord deflection also translates into better load sharing between adjacent spokes.
    [/color]
    I guess what he's saying is that you need to choose your rim based on your spokes, which is backward from how most people do it. What he's also saying is that no rim from Mavic or Stan can be used to build 3X wheels and that American Classic, in offering wheelsets with CX Rays at tension below the Sapim suggestion, builds wheels with poor stability.

    I'd like to know how many "very good" rims there are with max tension specs above 150 kgf. There is no reason to build wheels that tight for disc-braked mountain bikes. 12 spoke road wheels? Maybe, but I don't mess with those.
    It's a shame.
    [/color]
    Same point about elastic spokes tolerating lower tension better.

    He didn't even answer your question, but still managed to provide misinformation. I've heard this one about spoke shape and lateral stiffness before, and to be honest, it's laughable. The shape of the spoke has no effect on lateral stiffness. What matters is the spoke's elasticity, which is independent of shape, obviously.
    It's unfortunate that a consumer can't get reliable information from the manufacturers of the products he intends to use. I can't be surprised when people regurgitate misinformation that they're getting straight from the source.

    oh men... I'm lost!!!!!

    In the messageboard.notubes.com there are many people advising to take lasers instead of CX Ray for the ZTR Crest.

    Meltingfeather, you seemed to be very well informed For an AM bike, rider of 60 Kg, which spokes would you recommend for my Crest rims?? (knowing that should be the other way around )

    Best

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hmpoliveira
    oh men... I'm lost!!!!!

    In the messageboard.notubes.com there are many people advising to take lasers instead of CX Ray for the ZTR Crest.

    Meltingfeather, you seemed to be very well informed For an AM bike, rider of 60 Kg, which spokes would you recommend for my Crest rims?? (knowing that should be the other way around )

    Best
    choosing spokes for your rims is a great way to go about it. I probably wouldn't use Crests for an AM bike, so it's hard to say. Lasers/Revos provide the same weight and performance as CX Rays/Aerolites at a fraction of the cost. An elastic spoke is a good match for a lightweight rim, for the reasons described. I use Revos for all of my builds with Crests.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    choosing spokes for your rims is a great way to go about it. I probably wouldn't use Crests for an AM bike, so it's hard to say. Lasers/Revos provide the same weight and performance as CX Rays/Aerolites at a fraction of the cost. An elastic spoke is a good match for a lightweight rim, for the reasons described. I use Revos for all of my builds with Crests.

    Thanks man

    Since I am quite lighty (like everybody says) I assume the Crest will be OK.

  21. #21
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    jager7, you might want to remove the email address from that post of yours unless you want the guy to receive obscene amounts of spam.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropadrop
    jager7, you might want to remove the email address from that post of yours unless you want the guy to receive obscene amounts of spam.
    x2, that's why I pulled it from the quote.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropadrop
    jager7, you might want to remove the email address from that post of yours unless you want the guy to receive obscene amounts of spam.
    Thanks for the heads up, I was smart enough to not add the headers for that very reason, but not smart enough to notice the email address at the bottom.

  24. #24
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    i emailed notubes and asked about recommended spoke tension on their crest since it wasn't listed on their web page. also asked a question about their "low-ish" spoke tension. response:


    95 to 100 kilo
    These are not low tensions.


    wonder if they get that a lot.

  25. #25
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    Question for meltingfeather: Do you use the 2.0/1.7/2.0mm Revos or the 1.8/1.5/1.8mm ones for the Stans rims? Thanks.

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