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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Cyclery View Post
    Squirmy tires is a tire pressure/selection issue, not one of the rim.
    I disagree. How much a tire moves laterally with respect to the rim depends on the lateral force applied to the tire, the inflation pressure, the height (or volume) of the tire, the construction of the tire, and the width of the rim.

    All other things being equal, a tire will 'squirm' less on a wider rim than a narrow rim.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell View Post

    All other things being equal, a tire will 'squirm' less on a wider rim than a narrow rim.
    To what extent though? I would assume there would be a point of diminishing returns, where adding more width makes little to no difference at all in a tires "squirmyness".

    I do see your point though, and agreed, width can have an effect on ride quality. But I think the factors of a tire are much more noticeable.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Cyclery View Post
    To what extent though? I would assume there would be a point of diminishing returns, where adding more width makes little to no difference at all in a tires "squirmyness".

    I do see your point though, and agreed, width can have an effect on ride quality. But I think the factors of a tire are much more noticeable.
    Well, tire squirm is a subjective quality to begin with. I know some guys that can't stand any squirm, and others that are running such low pressure that I know their tires are rolling over a lot when they corner.

    Personally, I can feel the difference between 19mm and 21mm internal width rims (identical tires, identical wheel builds, 355 vs. Crest rims). Going to the American Classic Race 29 wheelset, with an internal width of 24mm, I feel much less tire squirm at identical inflation pressures. (I've pressed on the side of the rim using my thumbs, and the AC Race rim seems to deflect the same amount as my Crest rim. Not very scientific, I know, but the wheels seem to have similar lateral stiffness.) So I run a couple psi lower on the AC wheelset compared to the Crests.

    Yes, there will be a point of diminishing returns, but for large volume XC tires with thin casings, I feel this point is probably around 24-26mm internal width. Go much larger, and you start to alter the profile of the tire, and of course the rim weight increases.

    I personally won't go narrower than 21mm in the future. Another benefit of wider rims is the added volume they lend to your tire. Going from 19 to 23mm, one's 2.1" tire now feels like a 2.2, you may be able to run lower pressure (if you're not getting rim hits), and obviously a 2.1" tire weighs less than a 2.2, so the added weight of the rim is in part canceled out. I've had in-depth conversations on the subject with Bill Shook on the matter, and he and I are in agreement. I wish I had more scientific data to offer.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepo5669 View Post
    I don't understand what specialized means when they say "240 hubs"
    The set of control sls I played with had 54ish point of engagement bone stock. Dt240s have 24 poe stock.

    Maybe they have dt240 STYLE internals. I.e. star ratchet etc

    Mr zen may know.
    I don't think some of your info is accurate, so if these things are important to you I would do some more checking to confirm.

    I believe the roval wheels use dt freehub bodies and star ratchets. The old standard dt ratchets were 18 tooth and many newer dt hubs come equipped with the 36 tooth upgrade. The roval wheels you're considering most likely have the 36 tooth ratchet.

    Some people are really concerned with these numbers, but I have wheels with the 18T dt star ratchet, 36T dt star ratchet, and also an I9 hub that has some crazy high POE. They all work well and while I notice a difference occasionally it never has any significant impact on the way I ride.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepo5669 View Post
    Some product lines have "MSRP policies" which require the dealer to sell for MSRP. Fun fact of the day.

    I still plan on talking to him about getting some $ off. With every single $$$$ in hand for sure!
    Generally those are actually MAP policies "Minimum Advertised Pricing" they can sell for whatever price they want, they just can't advertise (post on billboard/ad/sticker) less than that. Northface (owned by vanity fair) is a great example. Their clothes come to the store with the tags with the price already on them, you have to wait until the next season's good are released before you can advertise discounts.

    Either way when you talk to them straight up ask them how they would like payment, IF they don't have to pay a 3-5% credit card fee then why should you? Just don't be a prick like the guy I who wanted to pick up bunch of stuff from the gun shop I worked at: we negotiated a "cash deal" and then he pulls out his American Express card and I kill the deal and he goes to my Manager (Manager told the guy we would add the credit card fee or he could go somewhere else).

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by erlau View Post
    I don't think some of your info is accurate, so if these things are important to you I would do some more checking to confirm.

    I believe the roval wheels use dt freehub bodies and star ratchets. The old standard dt ratchets were 18 tooth and many newer dt hubs come equipped with the 36 tooth upgrade. The roval wheels you're considering most likely have the 36 tooth ratchet.

    Some people are really concerned with these numbers, but I have wheels with the 18T dt star ratchet, 36T dt star ratchet, and also an I9 hub that has some crazy high POE. They all work well and while I notice a difference occasionally it never has any significant impact on the way I ride.
    This info is right, I have 2 sets now of the SL's and they both have DT swiss internals with 36 POE.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinning Lizard View Post
    This info is right, I have 2 sets now of the SL's and they both have DT swiss internals with 36 POE.
    Apparently I am a total dork and spun the cranks backwards and counted. The rider was riding 32x17 so that actually makes since since it is a touch smaller than 2:1

    Im still leaning toward the rovals.
    I would buy the enves if they were a couple mms wider. The AM version it too heavy for me, especially on King hubs.
    Raised in a Chicken-Coop by Chickens

  8. #58
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    Ask if they offer any discounts for being active in your local mtb club or doing trail work.
    i ride bikes

  9. #59
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    They are 36 POE and it isn't a big deal. I agree with erlau and also have an I9 120 POE hub. Especially for XC riding. If you are engaged, then it doesn't matter what POE you have. I can see if you are doing technical riding or trials then you would need high POE. For me anything above 24 POE is nice enough. I have rode 15 and the like and it just seems sloppy.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by friz View Post
    That being said, I would haggle the price of a slurpee if 7/11 would let me.
    LOL I say haggle on everything you can get away with. Their are too many shops that would give you 10-20% discount to make that sale.

    .

  11. #61
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    Where are you coming up with $1700 for this wheelset? The 2013 version is $1200.

    Here is a review: 2013 Specialized Control 29 Carbon Wheels for $1200 | Mountain Bike Review

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