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  1. #301
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    Onyx Racing Hubs - Sprag Clutch vs other types of Engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I don't think Nat meant that engagement was equal between Onyx and I9; of course it's not. I think he was talking about Stealth and Onyx.
    He has I9s. His point is that the instant engagement is not noticeable over the 100(+) POE of I9.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Other than price, what else do you want?
    Reasonable weight. Seriously, those things are boat anchors. It's kind of crazy how heavy they are. I understand why from an engineering perspective, because the sprang clutch is a VERY high stress design, but it's shocking how much steel it takes to make them reliable.
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  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    Re Engagement, really? I thought that was the whole point of the Onyx hubs?
    For me the selling point of Onyx hubs is the silent freewheel. Coasting quietly through the woods is an amazing experience.

    I honestly can't tell the difference in engagement between my three sets of wheels (I9 with Stan's rims, Onyx with NOBL carbon rims, and SRAM Roam 40). Maybe they're all high end enough to be similar? Maybe it's just not something that makes a difference to me? I don't know.

    I also couldn't detect the weight gain with the Onyx hub. In-hand my new Onyx wheels felt the same as the SRAM 40's they replaced even though on paper they're supposed to be 300g heavier. On the trail my new wheels were noticeably better accelerating.

    My I9s are on my singlespeed with tubed tires so it's harder to compare but I don't detect any difference in engagement.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I don't think Nat meant that engagement was equal between Onyx and I9; of course it's not. I think he was talking about Stealth and Onyx.

    In terms of noise, saying your noisy hubs are somehow an early warning device is absolutely ridiculous. About the only trail user who could hear a noisy hub over their own bike is a hiker and you're gonna say "hey" as soon as you see them.

    I've had four sets of Onyx hubs, still riding three sets, great hubs, long lasting, no maintenance issues, wouldn't trade them for any other hub.

    I have high poe DT350's on my XC bike, they're good hubs, but every time I ride that bike the difference in engagement leaves me wanting.

    Durable, instant engagement, high quality, supportive service, solid warranty.

    Other than price, what else do you want?
    Well, the weight could be more competitive with other high end hubs.

    I wouldn't call the idea of an early warning device ridiculous. I've had at least a dozen hikers tell me they could here my rear hub buzzing around blind switchbacks. Slower riders with headphones have yielded to me citing the hub's sound as well. Definitely not as effective as a bell but it has done the trick on plenty of occasions.

  4. #304
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    I think there's literally no means left to make the hubs lighter at their price point. Exotic materials could be used perhaps, but the cost would be aerospace-like, and reliability could suffer as well.
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  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I haven't had any close calls with other trail users since getting my new wheels with Onyx hubs. I do feel like I'm moving pretty silently though. If I'm moving quickly through an area without good lines of sight I'll turn on my bell (Mountain Bike Bells | TIMBER - Mountain Bike Bells by TIMBER) but otherwise I will lock it out.
    Update to previous post:

    The Timber bell is quite audible and piercing, sounding like an old land line telephone from the olden days or the Old Phone ringtone on your cell. For some reason when I'd switch the bell on, trail users up ahead wouldn't really look when I approached. I know they can hear me, but they often don't look. I wonder if they're thinking, "Someone is getting a phone call out here -- who's the a-hole who turned up his phone ringer that loud?" It's actually a bit too loud and obnoxious for me to ride with it on for very long.

    I'm trying out this dog bell instead, which sounds more like a jingle bell that the Salvation Army person would use in front of the supermarket, or that people put on their dogs' collars. Maybe other trail users will associate this different pitch with, "Someone's dog is approaching, or maybe it's Santa -- I'm going to look." This tone of this bell is one that isn't very obnoxious, and I don't mind doing an entire descent with it on, but I can silence it when I have good lines of sight.

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  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Maybe other trail users will associate this different pitch with, "Someone's dog is approaching, or maybe it's Santa -- I'm going to look."
    Funny the trade offs that come up. When I ride, trail users think, "here comes a mountain bike, better step off the trail."
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  7. #307
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    Please forgive me if this question was already asked, I didn't read through the entire thread.

    Those of your running Onyx hubs, is the weight penalty worth the silence/drag reduction? I'll be making the jump to a boost frame soon so I need a new wheelset. I've been running I-9 for over 3 years and had E.13 hubs before that, so I'm ready for quiet(of silent hubs). I'm on the fence between DT 240s/350s vs the Onyx.

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by matmattmatthew View Post
    Please forgive me if this question was already asked, I didn't read through the entire thread.

    Those of your running Onyx hubs, is the weight penalty worth the silence/drag reduction? I'll be making the jump to a boost frame soon so I need a new wheelset. I've been running I-9 for over 3 years and had E.13 hubs before that, so I'm ready for quiet(of silent hubs). I'm on the fence between DT 240s/350s vs the Onyx.

    Thanks!
    Why not get a Boostinator for your I9 hub? Their flanges are wider than most brands. If you have the straight pull hub that uses the alu spokes, the difference of the flanges for boost and non are about 2mm apart, which is negligible.

    Love my I9s btw. The buzz does a good job at announcing you're on the trail for hikers to be alert. I have a bell too but don't have to use it very often.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottieM8 View Post
    Why not get a Boostinator for your I9 hub? Their flanges are wider than most brands. If you have the straight pull hub that uses the alu spokes, the difference of the flanges for boost and non are about 2mm apart, which is negligible.

    Love my I9s btw. The buzz does a good job at announcing you're on the trail for hikers to be alert. I have a bell too but don't have to use it very often.
    They are the Torch hubs, I know I can "convert" the hubs to boost but I'd rather just have a new wheelset that has true boost hubs.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by matmattmatthew View Post
    Please forgive me if this question was already asked, I didn't read through the entire thread.

    Those of your running Onyx hubs, is the weight penalty worth the silence/drag reduction? I'll be making the jump to a boost frame soon so I need a new wheelset. I've been running I-9 for over 3 years and had E.13 hubs before that, so I'm ready for quiet(of silent hubs). I'm on the fence between DT 240s/350s vs the Onyx.

    Thanks!
    I have 240s on two or three bikes currently, 350s on another, Pro2s on another and plan on ordering ONYX hubs for my new frame once I figure out my fork situation.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by matmattmatthew View Post
    Those of your running Onyx hubs, is the weight penalty worth the silence/drag reduction?
    Since I started riding Onyx hubs, I haven't thought about the weight once, other than to feel silly for almost not getting them because of it. The benefits are definitely worth it for me, running two sets now.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonFalkenhausen View Post
    Since I started riding Onyx hubs, I haven't thought about the weight once, other than to feel silly for almost not getting them because of it. The benefits are definitely worth it for me, running two sets now.
    What he said . I have onyx on both my mtb . I have ck on my crossbike . Prefer onyx


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  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonFalkenhausen View Post
    Since I started riding Onyx hubs, I haven't thought about the weight once, other than to feel silly for almost not getting them because of it. The benefits are definitely worth it for me, running two sets now.
    Nice! That's exactly what I wanted to hear. Onyx it is then!

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by matmattmatthew View Post
    Nice! That's exactly what I wanted to hear. Onyx it is then!
    Good plan! What a lot of people fail to realize is tha the weight (~100 gms.) is in the center of the rotating mass so it has almost zero effect in spin up or braking speed. A 100 gms in tire weight would be much more detrimental.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksheep5150 View Post
    What he said . I have onyx on both my mtb . I have ck on my crossbike . Prefer onyx


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    Why did you prefer the onyx over ck? Other than the lack of sound?

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  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonlui View Post
    Why did you prefer the onyx over ck? Other than the lack of sound?

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    Doesnt take a special ck tool to take them apart to service them ...spin freer


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    Quote Originally Posted by matmattmatthew View Post
    Those of your running Onyx hubs, is the weight penalty worth the silence/drag reduction?
    I have about 900 miles here on a set of Onyx. I personally don't think they're worth the weight. It is quite noticeable to me and I miss the snappy feel of other hubs rather than the rubber band of Onyx. I love the way my Onyx looks (the anti-freeze green is stellar!), the silence, the low maintenance, and the responsiveness of the company, but honestly, I wish I'd done a different route.

    My next set will be Project321's new hubs (now that they're not using I9's design/internals) as they now have a quiet option, reasonable/normal weight, & engagement of 1.7°, among other features. I hope this helps.

  18. #318
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    The P321 hubs look great using the magnetic pawls for less drag but too bad they don't offer a centerlock option

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  19. #319
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    They are working on it!! My best hubs now Project 321 216 points of engagement and quiet and now EZO bearings from Japan, Onyx do have less drag and great German bearings, they spin forever!!

  20. #320
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    Any dates announced on Centerlock availability? Would be good to put on my radar.

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  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonlui View Post
    Any dates announced on Centerlock availability? Would be good to put on my radar.

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    No Jake did not say, they're having a hard time just keeping up with production with the new design and they just moved into a new facility. I also told Jake we need a new lime green color !

  22. #322
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    Ok
    I'll keep waiting. The dt350 with pawl upgrade is still the best bang for the buck for me.

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  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by newman17 View Post
    I have about 900 miles here on a set of Onyx. I personally don't think they're worth the weight. It is quite noticeable to me and I miss the snappy feel of other hubs rather than the rubber band of Onyx. I love the way my Onyx looks (the anti-freeze green is stellar!), the silence, the low maintenance, and the responsiveness of the company, but honestly, I wish I'd done a different route.

    My next set will be Project321's new hubs (now that they're not using I9's design/internals) as they now have a quiet option, reasonable/normal weight, & engagement of 1.7°, among other features. I hope this helps.
    No way you actually feel a difference in weight if you got a Onyx Hub with aluminium freehub body. Its all in your head.

    I do like the every so slightly soft engagement of the Onyx over a pawl/spring hub. No clunk when you start pedaling from coasting. Feels much more refined.

  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1017 View Post
    No way you actually feel a difference in weight if you got a Onyx Hub with aluminium freehub body. Its all in your head.

    I do like the every so slightly soft engagement of the Onyx over a pawl/spring hub. No clunk when you start pedaling from coasting. Feels much more refined.
    Me be thinkin' it's all in his head too.

    "clunk"? You shouldn't be getting a clunk, but the higher the POE's, the smoother the engagement.
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  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1017 View Post
    No way you actually feel a difference in weight if you got a Onyx Hub with aluminium freehub body. Its all in your head.
    FWIW, I don't have the aluminum driver (~48g saved from what I read) because I really don't want to spend another $125 after what I've already spent on these hubs. Anyway, I built a notably lighter version a Bronson than the one I demo'd that sold me on the bike. Despite me having carbon rims (and Sapim CX-Rays), RF NextSL cranks, etc, my Bronson has a very different pedaling feel than the one I demo'd that had just DT 350's and aluminum rims. It's definitely the hubs. It's the main difference for sure, because my bike is higher spec and lighter in every other way. Not saying the hubs suck, just that the weight is noticeable when you start pedaling. Once rolling, it's awesome, and definitely less drag, but there is noticeable weight to get moving. Everyone has different levels of sensitivity, and if it's no big deal to you, then truly is great, because the hub is definitely nice in other aspects.

    I also rode 16 different mountain bikes this weekend over 3 days (Outerbike Crested Butte), all different brands, wheel sizes, travel, etc. I noted the hub differences, and was reminded how much I hate loud hubs (looking at you i9!), but none had that sponge-y/soft engagement that Onyx has, and I wish Onyx felt and differently. To each their own. For me, I wish I had spent less coin on something else. Then again, there weren't many (any?) silent options at the time, and that's been really nice for sure.

  26. #326
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    I have a set of the 321s and they are solid. Even though I have the silent version they still have a light tapping noise.

    I rode the Onyx hubs briefly and LOVED that soft engagement point. I feel that's just an advantage all around. That said I won't add weight to my bikes if there is another option that works as well, and in this case, there is.

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by newman17 View Post
    Not saying the hubs suck, just that the weight is noticeable when you start pedaling. Once rolling, it's awesome, and definitely less drag, but there is noticeable weight to get moving.
    Nahhhhh.

  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by newman17 View Post
    Despite me having carbon rims (and Sapim CX-Rays), RF NextSL cranks, etc, my Bronson has a very different pedaling feel than the one I demo'd that had just DT 350's and aluminum rims. It's definitely the hubs. It's the main difference for sure, because my bike is higher spec and lighter in every other way. Not saying the hubs suck, just that the weight is noticeable when you start pedaling. Once rolling, it's awesome, and definitely less drag, but there is noticeable weight to get moving. Everyone has different levels of sensitivity, and if it's no big deal to you, then truly is great, because the hub is definitely nice in other aspects.
    So you are saying that your carbon rims with Onyx hubs accelerated slower than aluminum rims with DT 350 hubs? Unless your carbon hoops are heavier than the aluminum laced to the 350s, I don't see how this is possible. Lighter rim with heavier hub will accelerate faster than heavy rim with a light hub.

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    So you are saying that your carbon rims with Onyx hubs accelerated slower than aluminum rims with DT 350 hubs? Unless your carbon hoops are heavier than the aluminum laced to the 350s, I don't see how this is possible. Lighter rim with heavier hub will accelerate faster than heavy rim with a light hub.
    I understand the theory, just sharing what I've experienced. My rims are 410g each, the Arc 27s in the demo bike were 475g (claimed). Perhaps it's more the engagement style that one feels than it is weight, but that's exactly my personal issue with it, that it *feels* slower out of the gate and on slow speed stuff, despite my bike weighing a little less than the demo. It just doesn't have the snappy take-off I get on certain other setups. I'd just encourage the potential buyer who asked about this issue to try the hubs if possible and make sure he/she is cool with how it feels. It's just a personal preference.

  30. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by newman17 View Post
    I It's just a personal preference.
    Yes sir kinda like bikes , different horses for different courses . I like both sets of onyx hubs i have


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  31. #331
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    Heavy hubs does not increase what is called moment of inertia, the force required to spin up those wheels.

    It does however effect overall bike weight and even the reactiveness of the suspension. Both however are much smaller effects than weight placed at the outside of the wheel either by tire or wheel weight.

  32. #332
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    The painter who did my motorcycle told me:

    "Your choices are quick, good, and cheap. Pick any two."

    I like my Onyx.

  33. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Heavy hubs does not increase what is called moment of inertia, the force required to spin up those wheels.

    It does however effect overall bike weight and even the reactiveness of the suspension. Both however are much smaller effects than weight placed at the outside of the wheel either by tire or wheel weight.
    Nice explaination....For some reason, a large percentage of people just don't get it. They'll complain about a 100g extra hub weight, yet they'll throw on double casing tires at over 1000gms and not think a thing about it.

    I am a huge fan of the Onyx rear hub.
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  34. #334
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    I love the feel of my onyx. I didn't notice the difference aside from noise and coasting speed felt better. But after putting a lot of miles on them and switching to dt350 with 54t engagement I notice a huge difference. I've changed the way I pedal without realizing it. Love the onyx and will gladly accept the weight penalty.


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    Whatever floats your boat.
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  36. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Heavy hubs does not increase what is called moment of inertia, the force required to spin up those wheels.

    It does however effect overall bike weight and even the reactiveness of the suspension. Both however are much smaller effects than weight placed at the outside of the wheel either by tire or wheel weight.
    Every pedal stroke is an acceleration and you are constantly changing direction on a bike. Granted, the weight penalty for a hub that weighs a bit more should be pretty small, but this adds up overall and can make a heavy bike (even one one that has light wheels) a bear to ride all day or on longer harder rides, due to constantly accelerating that entire mass. Wheels are under even more constant acceleration, making the effect there greater, but constantly yanking a heavier bike back and forth also adds up.
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  37. #337
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    Don't get me wrong, I'm a full on weight weenie! Added up it all matters imo.
    It's just at the hub, it's the same as adding weight to the lower frame mostly. Meaning that 1/4# isn't really something most can feel.
    But I'm a big believer in shaving a little weight here and there and it all adds up to something significant.

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    A heavier hub is extra unsprung weight which will negative impact the suspension performance. I dont know how much, maybe its negligible. It may only be 5% , not sure if thats even noticeable. However, 100g is a 100g and that will be something on long days and long climbs. I dont need to coast faster or be silent so im good with the dt350 54t. However im intrigued with the onyx. Would probably go for the project 321 with magnetic pawls when they make the centerlock option.


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    Just had LB lace up some AM928 carbon hoops with Onyx hubs for my hardtail. Took her out for the maiden voyage today and these hubs are insane.
    Granted, I'm coming off some bottom barrel OEM DT hubs with probably 8 POE, but the Onyx is amazing. Sprinting out of corners with zero delay and no drivetrain clunks that is typical of lower POE hubs. I've only had one ride, but I'm loving it so far. I threw some lighter tires on there to make up some of the weight gain.
    I'll take a couple hundred grams for the instant engagement and silence!

  40. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    Just had LB lace up some AM928 carbon hoops with Onyx hubs for my hardtail. Took her out for the maiden voyage today and these hubs are insane.
    Granted, I'm coming off some bottom barrel OEM DT hubs with probably 8 POE, but the Onyx is amazing. Sprinting out of corners with zero delay and no drivetrain clunks that is typical of lower POE hubs. I've only had one ride, but I'm loving it so far. I threw some lighter tires on there to make up some of the weight gain.
    I'll take a couple hundred grams for the instant engagement and silence!



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  41. #341
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    Circling back to this one last time. The updated hub that Jim sent over a year ago has continued to function perfectly. No apparent sponginess, even when the bike is heavily loaded.

    I'm so satisfied with it I just ordered another 217mm Onyx hub for this same fatbike, so that I can have 3 wheelsets in total: 26 x 5.25" for low pressure/soft snow use, 27.5 x 4.5 studded for mixed winter conditions, and 29 x 3.25" for covering lots of ground with moderate to heavy loads way off the beaten path.

    Great company, great product, incredible customer service.

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    Good to hear all the praise about Onyx Hubs, just got my wheelset of Enve M60 laced to Onyx and I can't wait to take them for a ride when my new frame shows up. 2 Questions,
    -When I spin the freehub with my hand it feels like it's dry, is there a recommended grease/lube/oil for the sprags?

    -My hubs are centerlock and I'll be running the 2018 pike, does the torque-cap axle for the front hub work with centerlock?

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    I finally have a couple rides on my new rear wheel with an Onyx hub and the squishy engagement feels horrible. It very noticeable and I’m not getting used to it. It feels like the power stroke of the cranks from the 1-5 position is very soft and unresponsive. This soft feeling comes twice with every pedal stroke while engaged even on flat sections of trail that I'm not applying much torque to the cranks. I've contacted Onyx and shown them the linked video and they say it's normal. Prior to sending the video and just talking with them on the phone they said 0 - 1 degrees of movement is normal for the freehub to rotate relative to the hub shell for the sprags to stand up and lock. The cassette is an XT 11-46 and appears to move about a full tooth from light load to full load so that is 7.8 degrees of movement (360 / 46). There's potentially some loss with the hub shell twist from a locked brake and some wrapping effect on the spokes that I’m using as a reference but I think that those would have minuscule effects on this test.

    https://youtu.be/b0PAYtEk6do

    Are other onyx hub users have this much lag in engagement? It’s hard to believe people raving about these hubs have this lag or that this is within the design intentions of the hub. I think what I’m experiencing is abnormal and is a defective hub, despite onyx reviewing the video and saying it’s normal.

    I don't create enough torque with the pedals at 12 and 6 to maintain that fully engaged/ sprags fully locked position so I cycle through the sprags standing up and releasing (causing squishy engagement feel) twice with every pedal stroke as the left and right cranks are on the down stroke.

    Onyx said this is normal for their hubs and that their fix for Mikesee's custom 217mm wide hub was their E-bike clutch that doubles the size of the clutch to compensate for the higher loads. The video is torque applied from a seated position so I'm weary if the double the clutch size and same tolerance stack-up issues would still have this lag.

    If this amount of movement is not what others are experiencing, I’d like to try to get this hub to a normal operating state with much less lag in engagement. If this amount of movement is normal per other riders and Onyx can’t improve the issue, I’ll have to go back to pawl/ ratchet hubs available in a 177 wide flavor.

  44. #344
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    "Hub shell twist"?

    In your youtube video you call it "engagement lag", but that's not accurate. The hub is always engaged.

    Looks like you have a 26/46 bailout gear? That's part of the problem.

  45. #345
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    Lol. The controversy continues.

    Is it really squishy if it doesn't make a squish sound?

    How about we dispense with the squishy description and line up as follows -
    1 - Those who believe the engagement is "instant".
    2 - Those who believe "instant" is a bit of an exaggeration.

  46. #346
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    That video makes it pretty clear though.

    How does the front chainring size matter for the purposes of that demo mike?

  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    That video makes it pretty clear though.

    How does the front chainring size matter for the purposes of that demo mike?
    Smaller chainring=more torque

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  48. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    That video makes it pretty clear though.
    Makes what pretty clear?

    The hub is always engaged. Sitting on the bike with brakes locked is a good way to show what's happening, but is a far cry from how it actually feels on the trail.

    Not to say it isn't noticeable, just that it doesn't feel anywhere near the way the video makes it look.

  49. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    "Hub shell twist"?

    In your youtube video you call it "engagement lag", but that's not accurate. The hub is always engaged.

    Looks like you have a 26/46 bailout gear? That's part of the problem.
    I think he is referring to the "test conditions". He is holding the non-drive side of the hub fixed with the brake and applying torque at the drive side. There is going to be some (miniscule) amount of twist.

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  50. #350
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    It is not engagement lag, the engagement is as close to instant as you can get. What it is would be better described as wind up, the more torque applied, the more the mechanism twists as the sprags stand up further. It is like a mild spring effect, I have never liked the description of squishy or spongy because it implies a mechanical inefficiency and that is not the case. Whatever power you put into the hub that goes into winding up the sprag clutch is returned as the load decreases and the sprags unwind. It is exaggerated in the video by both the extreme gearing and the loading against a locked brake, that visible rotation is not all in the hub sprag clutch. In a more typical application, the effect is slight and not noticeable other than a nice lack of harshness in the application of power, the hubs have an excellent feel in 100% of my experience, but I am not running a beefy rig capable of riding up vertical surfaces. Some people may be more sensitive than me or prefer the mechanical latch feel of a pawl or lockring, but I find the effect to be a positive feature.

  51. #351
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    The hub may always be engaged and have instant engagement but the lag between downward force being applied to the pedals and it getting translated to the wheels responding is significant. It’d would be similar to the drag tire windup described earlier in the thread but instead of constant torque from a motor the torque is cyclical with each down stroke of the pedal so it’d be closer to the drag tire winding up, grabbing, moving the car forward, the tire unwinds then is wound up again as torque is once again translated into forward motion.

    Are other people experiencing this degree of windup as the down stroke of the pedals transfers?

    For clarification, I posted more videos in a smaller gear of 26 front and 24 in the back. This is on a 29+ wheel. Equivalent gearing on a 27.5 inch tall rear wheel would be approximately 30 tooth front and 25 tooth rear.

    https://youtu.be/b6UqmTM6RMg

    https://youtu.be/cZyc0Bkgf24

    https://youtu.be/itFp6WLebjU

    No high speed camera so can’t accurately show the acceleration issues.

  52. #352
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    Christ. The gearing has nothing to do with it. The sprag is either open or closed, so to speak (I don't know the exact term). The only thing the smaller front ring does is make the distance the crank arm moves greater. But if he had a 32t it would still look similar.

    And if there's windup then it's not instant. Pretty cut and dry IMO.

  53. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    The sprag is either open or closed, so to speak (I don't know the exact term).
    I have always thought of the sprag as engaged or disengaged. I heard one refer to them as deployed. Whatever works for you.
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  54. #354
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    Looks to me like something is wrong with it.

  55. #355
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    I have a rear Onyx on one of my bikes (soon to be all) I would call the engagement a soft engagement and LOVE it. The best way I can describe it is like I never stopped pedaling when I reengage.👍👍👌
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  56. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeti187 View Post
    The hub may always be engaged and have instant engagement but the lag between downward force being applied to the pedals and it getting translated to the wheels responding is significant. It’d would be similar to the drag tire windup described earlier in the thread but instead of constant torque from a motor the torque is cyclical with each down stroke of the pedal so it’d be closer to the drag tire winding up, grabbing, moving the car forward, the tire unwinds then is wound up again as torque is once again translated into forward motion.

    Are other people experiencing this degree of windup as the down stroke of the pedals transfers?
    I don't notice the windup at all, the hubs feel smooth and responsive to me. The first time someone mentioned it I had to try it on my own bike before I realized how it is noticeable if you do the crank against the brakes test. Maybe some people are extra sensitive to these things, maybe you pedal in a very peaky way, maybe there is something wrong with your hub. I will say that the only mechanical failure I have seen reported with an Onyx hub was a crack in the outer ring that contains the sprags and bears their force from engagement. Apparently the hub was still functional but I can imagine it had to change the engagement feel, I suppose this could be a possibility. In my 2 plus years riding Onyx hubs, I have had zero complaints and the engagement and feel have been flawless since day 1.

  57. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Christ. The gearing has nothing to do with it. The sprag is either open or closed, so to speak (I don't know the exact term). The only thing the smaller front ring does is make the distance the crank arm moves greater. But if he had a 32t it would still look similar.

    And if there's windup then it's not instant. Pretty cut and dry IMO.
    The gearing multiplies the torque, the windup is torque dependent. The engagement is practically instant, the windup is only a factor under heavy torque impulses. Windup has nothing to do with speed of engagement, it is a post-engagement phenomena that is usually subtle but in this particular case is a problem for yeti187.

  58. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeti187 View Post
    The hub may always be engaged and have instant engagement but the lag between downward force being applied to the pedals and it getting translated to the wheels responding is significant. It’d would be similar to the drag tire windup described earlier in the thread but instead of constant torque from a motor the torque is cyclical with each down stroke of the pedal so it’d be closer to the drag tire winding up, grabbing, moving the car forward, the tire unwinds then is wound up again as torque is once again translated into forward motion.

    Are other people experiencing this degree of windup as the down stroke of the pedals transfers?

    For clarification, I posted more videos in a smaller gear of 26 front and 24 in the back. This is on a 29+ wheel. Equivalent gearing on a 27.5 inch tall rear wheel would be approximately 30 tooth front and 25 tooth rear.

    https://youtu.be/b6UqmTM6RMg

    https://youtu.be/cZyc0Bkgf24

    https://youtu.be/itFp6WLebjU

    No high speed camera so can’t accurately show the acceleration issues.
    Looks like some flex in your frame, tires, etc. Bet you get the same result with a regular pawl type hub. Try it and report back.
    That being set, there is a little softness as the sprags load up.

  59. #359
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    ^LOL @ people saying that video shows something wrong with the onyx engagement. All you can tell is that the chainring moves and the cassette moves too.

    I want that silent. Gonna get me a rear hub.

  60. #360
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    I have 6 rides on my Onyx hubs and haven't noticed any "soft" engagement and certainly haven't noticed the extra weight. What I have noticed is the absolutely transcendent experience of riding with silent hubs and almost zero drag. I keep finding myself having to brake when riding with groups because I catch up to whoever is in front of me, I'm an Onyx convert and these will most likely be the hubs I ride on every single one of my bikes.

  61. #361
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    Transcendent is a good word to describe the experience. It’d be hard for me to go back to a loud hub.

  62. #362
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    I’ve got about 1 month and a couple hundred miles on my Onyx setup. I did have a shot XD driver bearing upon receipt, but after swapping that out it’s been bliss. Really love the silence and engagement!

  63. #363
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    The hub is lit.

    The silence is a bit eerie on an evening slow ride. Although all my rides seem to be solo..

  64. #364
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    I've had my Onyx for about a month now. In the past week, I noticed a lot of drag and backspin when freewheeling. I finally took it apart tonight only to discover a cracked xd driver axle (don't know the proper term for this).

    Gonna call Onyx in the morning. Should be covered under warranty. Anyone else have this issue? Or had to deal with a warranty claim?

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  65. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmanalan View Post
    I noticed a lot of drag and backspin when freewheeling.
    What does “backspin when freewheeling” mean?

  66. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    What does “backspin when freewheeling” mean?
    Means when he backpedals in the stand, the rear wheel will spin backwards. Hubs with a significant amount of drag do this.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  67. #367
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    Hm I thought the spindle is pressed into the aluminum freehub body a-la Shimano HT2 DS crank.

    The failure is caused by too much weight savings, I think. The spline curvature at the point of crack origination is the result of two opposing considerations: reducing stress concentration calls for a shallower shape and reducing axial load on bearings calls for a steeper one. (By too much weight savings I mean this spline joint existing at all, in an attempt to reduce the volume of steel in the hub.)
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  68. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Transcendent is a good word to describe the experience. It’d be hard for me to go back to a loud hub.
    Right , i feel the same way


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  69. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    He has I9s. His point is that the instant engagement is not noticeable over the 100(+) POE of I9.

    Reasonable weight. Seriously, those things are boat anchors. It's kind of crazy how heavy they are. I understand why from an engineering perspective, because the sprang clutch is a VERY high stress design, but it's shocking how much steel it takes to make them reliable.
    70 grams... That the weight difference between my i9's and Onyx.

    70 grams is one glazed donut or a half bagel.

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  70. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    70 grams... That the weight difference between my i9's and Onyx.

    70 grams is one glazed donut or a half bagel.

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    You may want to do your math again. Why I don't care about the extra weight, it is misleading to say 70 grams. It's closer to 200 or more depending on which hub.

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  71. #371
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    When I get around to buying my Onyx rear hub I'll have it in the heaviest configuration, and powder coated...
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  72. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    When I get around to buying my Onyx rear hub I'll have it in the heaviest configuration, and powder coated...
    With the optional internal lead weight upgrade

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  73. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Means when he backpedals in the stand, the rear wheel will spin backwards. Hubs with a significant amount of drag do this.
    Got it, thanks.

  74. #374
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    Onyx Racing Hubs - Sprag Clutch vs other types of Engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    With the optional internal lead weight upgrade
    That's how I always get mine ;-)

  75. #375
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    Not that frictionless at all

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    It's not entirely about durability and silent running, the real performamce benefits are in the immediate engagement and frictionless coasting.

    Once you ride these hubs, there's no going back, ratchet hubs will feel annoyingly slow.

    I'm starting my third Onyx wheel build this fall, just need to pick a color. I'm thinking silver with red streaks, or maybe red with gold streaks, or ...
    I have the Onyx rear hub, but still did not test it. I noticed spinning tha freehub by hand and comparing to a SRAM X0 rear hub is that the Onyx hub is indeed very silent but surprisingly it seems to have way more !coasting friction" than the X0 rear hub. Let´s see if the friction is lower after it is broken in.

  76. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_camargos View Post
    I have the Onyx rear hub, but still did not test it. I noticed spinning tha freehub by hand and comparing to a SRAM X0 rear hub is that the Onyx hub is indeed very silent but surprisingly it seems to have way more !coasting friction" than the X0 rear hub. Let´s see if the friction is lower after it is broken in.
    Let it break in my man. That's when the magic happens

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  77. #377
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    That's what she said.

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  78. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    Let it break in my man. That's when the magic happens

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    exactly, had the same experience. thought something was wrong, asked onyx about it, and they said i hade to break it in, and 3 weeks later (didn't ride to much) it was spinning like no other hub i have ever seen.

  79. #379
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    FYI, there is a great video on NOBL's Facebook page posted today, about 1 hour ago, comparing Industry 9, Project 321, Hope Pro4, DT180, and NOBL/Onyx hub sounds.

  80. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmanalan View Post
    I've had my Onyx for about a month now. In the past week, I noticed a lot of drag and backspin when freewheeling. I finally took it apart tonight only to discover a cracked xd driver axle (don't know the proper term for this).

    Gonna call Onyx in the morning. Should be covered under warranty. Anyone else have this issue? Or had to deal with a warranty claim?
    Mine cracked too. They sent a replacement 2-day air. No questions asked.
    Amazing that a tiny crack and diameter change causes that much drag!
    Replacement has been fine for almost a year.

  81. #381
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    Aaron1017, is yours the aluminum freehub type too?
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  82. #382
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    so the onyx turns out to be "spongey", i guess sprags wasnt really a winning concept after all. who would have guessed? I wonder why no one went the true precision route?? except me that is. These have 0,0000090% sponge, the lockup is as dead and stiff as adolf hitler.
    But yeah surprise surprise we all have to go looking for people that invents the fukn wheel over and over and over again promising gold at the end of the unicorn rainbow??????

    what can i say?

    you deserved it

    not saying the tp's are the best hubs in the world but at least it does what it says on the box.. you know that sh1t? actually working as supposed?
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  83. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    you deserved it

    In a forum filling up with douchebags, you continually find ways to elevate yourself to the top of the heap. Strong work.

  84. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    In a forum filling up with douchebags, you continually find ways to elevate yourself to the top of the heap. Strong work.
    I reside at the very top of the douche pyramid yes. problem?

    i worked hard to get there.
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    Specialized sucks ass.

  85. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    In a forum filling up with douchebags, you continually find ways to elevate yourself to the top of the heap. Strong work.
    I can tell you one thing though. regarding "sponge", with a TP, there is nothing, simply nothing. and if there were, the whole fukn hub would disintegrate in most likely 3-4 big pieces by design. go figure.

    I'm just saying and have always been saying "dont go over the river for water" but still everybody just needs needs to just fukn do that, wtf is up with that shit? doesnt anybody learn jack shit from other people anymore?? I guess so.

    so yeah you did deserve it.
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  86. #386
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    What are you talking about???

  87. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    What are you talking about???
    this

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti187 View Post
    The hub may always be engaged and have instant engagement but the lag between downward force being applied to the pedals and it getting translated to the wheels responding is significant. It’d would be similar to the drag tire windup described earlier in the thread but instead of constant torque from a motor the torque is cyclical with each down stroke of the pedal so it’d be closer to the drag tire winding up, grabbing, moving the car forward, the tire unwinds then is wound up again as torque is once again translated into forward motion.

    Are other people experiencing this degree of windup as the down stroke of the pedals transfers?

    For clarification, I posted more videos in a smaller gear of 26 front and 24 in the back. This is on a 29+ wheel. Equivalent gearing on a 27.5 inch tall rear wheel would be approximately 30 tooth front and 25 tooth rear.

    https://youtu.be/b6UqmTM6RMg

    https://youtu.be/cZyc0Bkgf24

    https://youtu.be/itFp6WLebjU

    No high speed camera so can’t accurately show the acceleration issues.
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  88. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    this
    That's the original post, but I can't figure out what you were trying to say in your replies.

  89. #389
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    Any updates on the new hubs? Those are some pretty aggressive weight targets.

  90. #390
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    I won't be in the market for new wheels again for years but I rode Onyx once and LOVED the feel but the weight weenie in me couldn't take the weight penalty.

    If they fix the weight they will be the only hubs for me.

  91. #391
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    I have an engineer friend testing various fat hubs in the cold, including onyx. While they have a great drive mech, according to him, there is little support for the axle by the bearings, other more traditional designs like hope and DT do a much better job here, not sure if this applies outside of the fat hubs, but it was interesting and could be a source of this cracking problem. He was indicating the heavier/more aggressive the rider, the worse this would be.
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  92. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I have an engineer friend testing various fat hubs in the cold, including onyx. While they have a great drive mech, according to him, there is little support for the axle by the bearings, other more traditional designs like hope and DT do a much better job here, not sure if this applies outside of the fat hubs, but it was interesting and could be a source of this cracking problem. He was indicating the heavier/more aggressive the rider, the worse this would be.
    Can you elaborate on that? General construction doesn't seem to be all that different between Onyx and others (other than the sprag). By that I mean, they all have similar number of bearing supporting roughly the same part of the hub. To what specifically is he referring?

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    Wow. 320g is compelling. I would rip out my dt 350 to try these out but i would need a centerlock version

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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Can you elaborate on that? General construction doesn't seem to be all that different between Onyx and others (other than the sprag). By that I mean, they all have similar number of bearing supporting roughly the same part of the hub. To what specifically is he referring?
    Why, Onyx are very different from mainstream cartridge bearing hubs in how rider weight is carried.

    In a typical rear hub, the drive side load path goes from hub shell to the axle through one bearing. Then from DS bearing's inner ring to DS dropout through the unsupported length of axle that passes through the freehub body (the bearings in freehub body do not carry rider weight).

    In Onyx, the DS load goes from shell to axle through two bearings, freehub/driver body, and one more bearing. That last bearing is located as close to the DS dropout as possible (and as it's done on NDS in nearly every hub there is), which is very desirable in rear hub design, because axles can then be made thinner, leaving more room for whatever freehub internals there are.

    So, as far as the axle is concerned, the shell/driver assembly in Onyx works like a single part, applying loads very close to dropouts.


    There are other niche hubs that carry rider weight in similar ways. Most notably CK and TP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Can you elaborate on that? General construction doesn't seem to be all that different between Onyx and others (other than the sprag). By that I mean, they all have similar number of bearing supporting roughly the same part of the hub. To what specifically is he referring?
    I will eventually, will take a while to get back, remember, these are the fat versions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I have an engineer friend testing various fat hubs in the cold, including onyx. While they have a great drive mech, according to him, there is little support for the axle by the bearings, other more traditional designs like hope and DT do a much better job here, not sure if this applies outside of the fat hubs, but it was interesting and could be a source of this cracking problem. He was indicating the heavier/more aggressive the rider, the worse this would be.
    I don't understand his claims.

    Take a look at these pics. I count 3 bearings just in this picture inside the main hub shell thay support the axle, one being in the middle of the hub! This is not counting any freehub bearings either. I can imagine that the fatty hub is the same

    Contrast that with what most hubs resemble in pic #2





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    Maybe he's a custodial engineer or train engineer? J/K.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Maybe he's a custodial engineer or train engineer? J/K.
    My personal favorite was when I heard someone say they were a Sandwich engineer. Ended up, they worked at Subway.

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    I can see how the wider (fat bike) hubs have more room to move bearings around, providing less support in some (possibly critical) areas. Looking forward to seeing more info regarding this comparison.

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    The two bearings closest to the sprag clutch do not touch the axle. They separate hub shell from the driver body.

    (This is not to say the axle lacks support in the middle. It doesn't need to be supported there because it can be made stiff enough to keep maximum deflection in the low tenths of a mm there, even for fatbike OLDs.)

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