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  1. #101
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    Interesting mechanics. What gearing are you in that nets the 3 to 5 o'clock effect? 26x44? Lower?
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I
    I've never really noticed anything about the 177 hub, other than it is so quiet that I've spent more time fine-tuning the rear brake on that bike than any brake, on any bike, ever before.
    That is funny stuff!
    Regarding the strange behavior of the 217 hub, however, I wonder if the "wind-up" phenomenon is specific to the hub size. It sounds like the 177 doesn't do it, but the 217 does. I can't remember from the Brrrly thread - but if the 217 is a one-off, it seems like the chance of something being slightly out of tolerance may be greater.
    Does this sound like a possibility? What if the distance between the shell of the hub (the surface the outer part/top of the sprag contacts) and the driver (the surface that the inner part/bottom of the sprag contacts) - was just a small amount more than intended - the sprags would need to "stand up" straighter before locking the rotational movement of the driver and hub shell. As they rotated more to get to the the wedge point, it seems like the driver/cassette would noticeably rotate further and produce a "wind up".

  3. #103
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    It could be a few different things. Most suspect is our tolerance stack, may be on the low end of things, causing the greatest amount of distance for the sprag to actuate. This coupled with a special 217/12 hub, heavy load, flex/etc could all contribute to it being so pronounced on this particular bike. I'll have to contact Mike tomorrow and see what we can do. We only made a handful of these for him so there is not a lot of feedback on it yet.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I don't need to concentrate on the pedals to feel it and be weirded out by it. I can be focusing on the view, an upcoming photo op, a conversation with a riding partner -- anything and everything else -- and then there it is, unmistakeable on every stroke as the grade gets steep.

    45 degrees is 1/8 of a crank revolution, not 1/4. As in 45 x 8 = 360.
    Yeah, I realized my math was fubar on my ride into work this morning. If you don't notice it on the 177 but do on the 217, then wouldn't you say its an isolated issue with the 217? How much time do you have riding on the 177? My guess is the o.d. of the drive shell (where the sprags contact) might be a mil or two undersized, meaning the sprags need to stand up a little bit more before they lock into place.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I've already said that I do notice it. Right from the get-go on my very first ride, and increasingly on every ride since.

    Perhaps I should be the one that determines what impact it has on my riding, and not you?
    I was the 1st to mention this play a while back in another thread talking about high engagement hubs. It's real and can be felt, I have gotten used to it. Not a race bike hub!!

  6. #106
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    jonshonda, note how you used the term stroke and mikesee used the term revolution. By stroke you could have meant the part of revolution where quadriceps muscle works.

    dgw7000, what's your setup?

  7. #107
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    Niner WFO 29er 142x12 and 100x15, xx1 set-up. Wide Derby 35mm carbon rims. 2.35 tires

  8. #108
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    This feeling will be accentuated by the gear ratio. Say it is a 28t/42t, that gives you .67 wheel rotation per 1 revolution of the crank. 28/42 = .67, now take that divided by 1 full rotation, .67/360=.0019 wheel rotation per degree. He was talking 45-50 degrees, which is .08 to .09 total wheel rotation before complete lockup. The work that goes into this 45-50 degree is energy stored in the clutch, elastic potential energy to be exact. Because force is proportional to the displacement you are not loosing anything. It is a feel thing, I get that, but it is an extremely efficient hub. We had Duke University do a study on ours as well as other hubs on the market, I have some of the results back and it is located here. https://www.dropbox.com/s/cs2g251nz9...ndown.pdf?dl=0 These were the final top five of the hubs tested. I will post the rest of the results from Duke when they are finished and I believe they will be publishing these also. With that said, they among many other universities are using our hubs on their long milage vehicles simply for their efficiency.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    Yeah, I realized my math was fubar on my ride into work this morning. If you don't notice it on the 177 but do on the 217, then wouldn't you say its an isolated issue with the 217? How much time do you have riding on the 177? My guess is the o.d. of the drive shell (where the sprags contact) might be a mil or two undersized, meaning the sprags need to stand up a little bit more before they lock into place.
    Similar amounts of time overall on 177 vs. 217. If I focus on the 177 I can feel it. I think the main difference is all the added mass of luggage on the 217 -- as soon as the trail points up that added ~40+ pounds means something.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I think the main difference is all the added mass of luggage on the 217 -- as soon as the trail points up that added ~40+ pounds means something.
    Does the wind-up decrease proportionally when you try it with luggage removed? (You may need a steeper grade to test it vs the same force and gearing though, if traction still permits that.)

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Gerhardt View Post
    This feeling will be accentuated by the gear ratio.
    Thanks for chiming in, Jim. Direct communication with everyone at Onyx has been stellar.

    I am running a 26 x 44 on this bike. Still not *quite* low enough for the way and places we ride these bikes. When Wolftooth releases a 24t stainless ring to fit these cranks, I'll have one.

    Here's a vid that hopefully helps to explain what my words might not have thus far.


  12. #112
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    ^What I was hoping for is video of you going from a track stand/very low speed and a using a sudden burst of energy to propel yourself moving forward. Not trying to be rude, but standing on the pedals with the brakes applied isn't a very good representation of typical riding behavior.

    I run a 34x42t so I am guessing that is part of the reason I don't feel anything different.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    ^What I was hoping for is video of you going from a track stand/very low speed and a using a sudden burst of energy to propel yourself moving forward. Not trying to be rude, but standing on the pedals with the brakes applied isn't a very good representation of typical riding behavior.

    I run a 34x42t so I am guessing that is part of the reason I don't feel anything different.
    Fear not, the video wasn't made for you.

    No video made without really, really expensive equipment is going to show anything like what you want to see when the subject/object is in motion. No way.

    I made the video not because it represents an actual riding situation, but because it shows what I feel when I am riding: sponginess.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Thanks for chiming in, Jim. Direct communication with everyone at Onyx has been stellar.

    I am running a 26 x 44 on this bike. Still not *quite* low enough for the way and places we ride these bikes. When Wolftooth releases a 24t stainless ring to fit these cranks, I'll have one.

    Here's a vid that hopefully helps to explain what my words might not have thus far.

    ok thats not 1/8rev at the pedals. maybe 1/16. also at the cassette its at most, I dont know maybe 15 degrees. I think its a compound problem with thast whole bike though. Everything seems super flexy and spongy everything from the frame and the chain to the cranks or maybe its just me?

    I'm guessing fine tuning the tolerances inside the hub (and thickness of stock) can probably make the hub rock solid from the first lockup, just like my tp. When its locked its just locked.

    and of courswe the gear ratio will make it worse.

    Can you make another vid in the highest gear instead. So we have both extremes?
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Gerhardt View Post
    This feeling will be accentuated by the gear ratio.
    That explains why I haven't felt any of the issues on my singlespeed. If my chain is loose I'll feel the slack take up, but when properly tightened, the power feels like it's there instantly with no sponginess or lag.

  16. #116
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    What is the material that the sprags mate to when locking up and how thick/strong/stiff is that material? I mean does the sprags mate to something really solid (like several mm of hardened steel) or just alu and some thin steel shim? Or just alu? alu only has 1/3 the "stiffness" of steel so that could make stuff flexy imo in a situation like this.

    On a tp hub the freehub is the mating surface/inner race for the clutch. the freehub is hardened steel at least 50hrc and polished. And outsude the clutch to prevent it from distortion is the actual hub. as some of you may know its looks kinda wavy. that bigger diameter is what prevents the clutch from expanding. that alu is like 10mm thick. Thats what it takes to make it unflexy. and several, like 5mm of hardened steel on the other side.
    But it is rock solid though. so I'm not complaining.
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  17. #117
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    I think there's a thick steel ring pressed into the hub shell in Onyx hubs. Sprags slide on its inner, polished and lubricated surface, and press on it when they lock up.

    With TP hubs, there's also a thick steel ring, except it's maybe not pressed, but screwed into hub shell against a stop. And it doesn't need to be polished because the needle roller cartridge is pressed into it.

    I think that ring stiffness and its ID tolerances are about the same for both Onyx and TP.

  18. #118
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    Thanks for the update Mike, that gearing will put you around 1/2 wheel turn per rev. of the cranks, massive amounts of torque going to the hub, not sure there is any other bike application that would resemble this. It definitely is going to be a feel thing, you can see in the video the energy releasing back into the cranks when you lift up, it has to or the hub would still be engaged. I'd say if this was a bigger market for these I'd make a different version that would eliminate this, but I'm not sure I'd ever recoup the costs. I have a few options to discuss with you to reduce this on this particular hub, give me a call when you get a chance.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    What is the material that the sprags mate to when locking up and how thick/strong/stiff is that material? I mean does the sprags mate to something really solid (like several mm of hardened steel) or just alu and some thin steel shim? Or just alu? alu only has 1/3 the "stiffness" of steel so that could make stuff flexy imo in a situation like this.

    On a tp hub the freehub is the mating surface/inner race for the clutch. the freehub is hardened steel at least 50hrc and polished. And outsude the clutch to prevent it from distortion is the actual hub. as some of you may know its looks kinda wavy. that bigger diameter is what prevents the clutch from expanding. that alu is like 10mm thick. Thats what it takes to make it unflexy. and several, like 5mm of hardened steel on the other side.
    But it is rock solid though. so I'm not complaining.
    I think pretty much everyone here 'gets' that you like your TP hub. Cool. Now, move along?

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    Does the wind-up decrease proportionally when you try it with luggage removed? (You may need a steeper grade to test it vs the same force and gearing though, if traction still permits that.)
    The feel is definitely less pronounced with less weight on the bike. But I can emphatically still feel it.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Fear not, the video wasn't made for you.
    Ouch!

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I think pretty much everyone here 'gets' that you like your TP hub. Cool. Now, move along?
    I'm not here to promote tp. but i still find it interesting comparing these 2 hubs since they are the 2 only real instant hubs. so I think my comparisons is valid in this thread. dont you?? and btw i'm trying to help you since you can't do that yourself. but yeah I don't need to post in this thread no more if thats what you want.


    ------------------------------
    question to onyx!

    Have you made any tests of what happens when the tolerances get big? or too small and so on? I'm guessing if the tolerances are too small the sprag will slip and then lock up but not very hard and if its too slack we have this phenomenon. I'm an ex machinist and I fully understand that a 0,01mm there and here makes a difference. Especially with these systems.
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  23. #123
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    Jim,
    could the issue with this particular hub be explained with driver body and outer ring being near the opposite ends of their tolerance ranges? That is, each part alone is OK and it's just an unfortunate combination of them in that hub instance?

  24. #124
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    It is not an issue as in a failure, it is a function of the force applied to actuate the clutch into a position to propel the bike forward. Tolerance is in the .001mm range. Making them tighter will cause a lot of drag. There is a tolerance stack between the press/inner ring/clutch/driver. The only thing we don't manufacture is the clutch and I don't have the ability to measure that on an individual basis. They are spec'd for our tolerance range so that could be a contributor. We are talking an extreme low gear range, 26/44. Take a look at the video and see how much the small gear on the cassette moves relative to the large gear, this will put it in perspective.

  25. #125
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    That's actually how I expected that type of clutch to work. For drag free coasting, it needs to disengage just a hair for clearance, and when you pedal again it has to travel back that distance and then lock into place. Onyx says that it's supposed to be always engaged, which I believe is an exaggeration of saying it has minimum distance needed to clear for virtually instant engagement and still coast drag-free. Looks like the sprags slide in pretty easily in the service videos... I suspect what he does, that the clearance is a bit on the high/looser side.

    When you said it is loaded with 70-90 lbs of gear, I actually expected even lower gears, in case of hills and resistance such as wind and snow. It's more noticable in lower gears, but 26x44 isn't really any lower than what people run on their 30 lb skinny tire bikes not hauling cargo. I suspect other things, like this is the same diameter axle (14-16mm?) that's 217mm wide and still supported by the same # of bearings, just spread out. What if the axle is deforming? Heck, there could even be hub shell deformation from the spoke tension.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I'm not here to promote tp. but i still find it interesting comparing these 2 hubs since they are the 2 only real instant hubs. so I think my comparisons is valid in this thread. dont you?? and btw i'm trying to help you since you can't do that yourself. but yeah I don't need to post in this thread no more if thats what you want.


    ------------------------------
    question to onyx!

    Have you made any tests of what happens when the tolerances get big? or too small and so on? I'm guessing if the tolerances are too small the sprag will slip and then lock up but not very hard and if its too slack we have this phenomenon. I'm an ex machinist and I fully understand that a 0,01mm there and here makes a difference. Especially with these systems.
    Too loose = won't engage, too tight = won't get parts together. The individual sprags are positioned such that they ride on the driver, they do not rotate with the hub body. Once force is applied they need to move to a point in their geometry to transfer the torque to from the cassette to the hub body. Most of the time the force required to move the bike forward is less than the full engagement, of course you reach this point faster with a very low gear.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    That's actually how I expected that type of clutch to work. For drag free coasting, it needs to disengage just a hair for clearance, and when you pedal again it has to travel back that distance and then lock into place. Onyx says that it's supposed to be always engaged, which I believe is an exaggeration of saying it has minimum distance needed to clear for virtually instant engagement and still coast drag-free. Looks like the sprags slide in pretty easily in the service videos... I suspect what he does, that the clearance is a bit on the high/looser side.

    When you said it is loaded with 70-90 lbs of gear, I actually expected even lower gears, in case of hills and resistance such as wind and snow. It's more noticable in lower gears, but 26x44 isn't really any lower than what people run on their 30 lb skinny tire bikes not hauling cargo. I suspect other things, like this is the same diameter axle (14-16mm?) that's 217mm wide and still supported by the same # of bearings, just spread out. What if the axle is deforming? Heck, there could even be hub shell deformation from the spoke tension.
    It has to stay engaged all the time or it could never engage. Minimal, yes, but there is always engagement. In the video you see the installation of the clutch into the hub, you would be correct in having a minimal clearance. What you don't see is that when we put the driver into the inside of the clutch, it must be twisted backwards in order to insert it into the mechanism. This is the other halve of the equation that engages the clutch to the driver and inner sleeve. I have clear hub shells and cut-a-ways to demonstrate this.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Gerhardt View Post
    It is not an issue as in a failure, it is a function of the force applied to actuate the clutch into a position to propel the bike forward. Tolerance is in the .001mm range. Making them tighter will cause a lot of drag. There is a tolerance stack between the press/inner ring/clutch/driver. The only thing we don't manufacture is the clutch and I don't have the ability to measure that on an individual basis. They are spec'd for our tolerance range so that could be a contributor. We are talking an extreme low gear range, 26/44. Take a look at the video and see how much the small gear on the cassette moves relative to the large gear, this will put it in perspective.
    Do you mean 0.01 mm tolerances here really? I mean going to thousands (0,001mm) is affected by the temperature of the air. Yeah opening the door of a 20C deg workshop in the winter will cause the machines to display like 0,005-6-7 lower or higher, fluctuating.

    I have seen movement of 2 hundreds (0,02mm) with the machines standing still just the optical measuring system providing input. (steel contracting/expanding)

    I'd say the smallest possible measurable part being able to be manufactured in a lathe or mill today is like 0,01mm. to make stuff measuring lower than that you need a 20C clean room (temp controlled) and ypui also need to grind the thing to specs. IMO.

    Hell even machining like 10 peieces of something will cause the hardmetal cutter to shrink like 1-2 hundreds.

    and to even measure 0.001mm you need to use a mikrokator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johansson_Mikrokator

    If you are really working with 0.001mm tolerances (individual thousands) here i don't see how you can make money on this at all.

    not even the best mori seiki machines will give this performance since its purely physics.
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    car bone you are mistaken, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. Been in this game a long time and work with these tolerances on a day to day basis.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Gerhardt View Post
    Too loose = won't engage, too tight = won't get parts together. The individual sprags are positioned such that they ride on the driver, they do not rotate with the hub body. Once force is applied they need to move to a point in their geometry to transfer the torque to from the cassette to the hub body. Most of the time the force required to move the bike forward is less than the full engagement, of course you reach this point faster with a very low gear.
    I see. so its an its/or situation here?

    But there have to be some mechanisms at work here. I see cassette as possible/ chain, 11/12sp sh1t/ cranks as light as possible carbon, and so forth.

    But we can all se that the actual cassette is moving while he's applying torque to the pedals. so something is at work here inside the hub too. otherwise the cassette wouldn't have moved.

    Is it possible that this very hub was out of ideal spec? Also could this be due to alu? and its flexibility? Or possiblöy the lenght of the hub causing a partial only engagement of the clutch? Maybe only half the clutch is really engaging due to weight/angle distortion?
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  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Gerhardt View Post
    car bone you are mistaken, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. Been in this game a long time and work with these tolerances on a day to day basis.
    Ok I see. I'm not gonna argue. but really can you confirm single thousands of a mm tolerances??

    I rest my case if you say yes here no sh1t. And i also applaud you for making this precision happen. Its a hell of a feat imo. And its has to cost a sh1tload.
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    Ok I see. I'm not gonna argue. but really can you confirm single thousands of a mm tolerances??

    I rest my case if you say yes here no sh1t. And i also applaud you for making this precision happen. Its a hell of a feat imo. And its has to cost a sh1tload.
    The manufacturing tolerances are a lot closer than what you'd imagine them to be. I'm not going to post a drawing or anything but we machine in a very controlled environment.

  33. #133
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    I see. I'm used to measuring hundreds at the machine. and thats all there is, talking thermal expansion and all that.
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    Maybe he machines other things with the less than new tooling that requires less precision, only using the freshest cutting tools to make the drive related parts of the hubs.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

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    I was told by someone familiar with Onyx that the Manufacturer of the sprag clutch units was very impressed that Onyx had developed a way to utilize their sprag clutch for this application - when others had tried and failed.
    I wonder if one of the reasons Onyx was successful was d/t figuring out how to create and manage the tolerances needed.

  36. #136
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    Well, considering the weight of the hubs, maybe they use harder/stiffer materials. Surfaces all related to the drive mech made of maraging steel cut with a wire EDM (the ring inside the hubshell, and on the freehub, installed using heat/cooling for a permanent interference fit)... who knows. Maybe we're too pleb to imagine what kind of operation he has. All I know, with my imagination, I have a hard time figuring out how he makes money too... I'm even more interested now.

    A decent quality ceramic bearing that rivals SKF steel ones aren't cheap, at least $40 per and there's 4-5 of them. Hubshell has to have at least $75 worth of machining time, considering the intricacy. Hmm, what else... maybe $200 covers the freehub, axle, end caps, and finishing. Not sure how much the sprags cost. That's pretty much asking price right there.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Well, considering the weight of the hubs, maybe they use harder/stiffer materials. Surfaces all related to the drive mech made of maraging steel cut with a wire EDM (the ring inside the hubshell, and on the freehub, installed using heat/cooling for a permanent interference fit)... who knows. Maybe we're too pleb to imagine what kind of operation he has. All I know, with my imagination, I have a hard time figuring out how he makes money too... I'm even more interested now.

    A decent quality ceramic bearing that rivals SKF steel ones aren't cheap, at least $40 per and there's 4 of them. Hubshell has to have at least $75 worth of machining time, considering the intricacy. Hmm, what else...

    there is no exotic machining going on if you ask me.

    the most exotic maching i have seen so far is the inside of the tp hub flanges around the spoke holes. they are perfectly chamfered. I always wondered how they did that.

    edm is not really a high precision method, not for this purpose atleast. its a last ditch method for idiot designers imo. no one in their right mind will design parts that require edm. I have heard stories..

    You always shrink/expand stuff for a press fit imo. I do it about every week on beefy hydraulic tools. 200-250mm bushings or so. I "weld them out" before with a stick welder/mma. that is I'm adding molten steel (maximum thermal expanded steel) and when it cools it contracts, then i can pull the bushing out with a fork lift then I cool the new bushing with liquid nitro and put it in there. Its highly undramatic when I do it.
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    Specialized sucks ass.

  38. #138
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    It's a relative thing, compared to something more basic like a CNC'd stem that sells for around $50-100. In the hubshell alone, he has 3 bearing seats, a groove for a retaining ring, a labyrinth seal for the freehub, 6 threaded rotor holes, 32 chamfered spoke holes, has to machine it all out from a billet slug... can't be removing large swaths of material due to the number of surfaces that have specified dimensions with tolerances to meet. I guess if you compare to CK, and call it even on bearings, Onyx has more going into it, without the tolerances coming into play.

    Again, press fits relative to other stuff in the bike industry. You can call it a joke and I'll sympathize; I'd take delrin shims over loose fitting metal-to-metal contact. Press fits on bikes are designed to be removed easily, perhaps with the help of a hammer. No getting stuff off a bike without getting a little more destructive than a few hammer taps if you did a real press fit. Have you seen how I9 puts together their drive ring nowadays? Not all in 1 piece like before. Cutting a thin ring out of a block of steel would be a $$$ inefficient use of material, with a lot going to scrap, even if they get the freehub's surface out of it too, which are the only 2 pieces he's responsible for crafting to extra tight tolerances.

    By perfect chamfers on your TP hub, do you mean that they perfectly match the head of the spokes when tensioned?

    Is the Onyx centerlock spline ring also made from steel? Wondering why its listed weight is so much more than the 6-bolt.
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  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    It's a relative thing, compared to something more basic like a CNC'd stem that sells for around $50-100. In the hubshell alone, he has 3 bearing seats, a groove for a retaining ring, a labyrinth seal for the freehub, 6 threaded rotor holes, 32 chamfered spoke holes, has to machine it all out from a billet slug... can't be removing large swaths of material due to the number of surfaces that have specified dimensions with tolerances to meet. I guess if you compare to CK, and call it even on bearings, Onyx has more going into it, without the tolerances coming into play.

    Again, press fits relative to other stuff in the bike industry. You can call it a joke and I'll sympathize; I'd take delrin shims over loose fitting metal-to-metal contact. Press fits on bikes are designed to be removed easily, perhaps with the help of a hammer. No getting stuff off a bike without getting a little more destructive than a few hammer taps if you did a real press fit. Have you seen how I9 puts together their drive ring nowadays? Not all in 1 piece like before. Cutting a thin ring out of a block of steel would be a $$$ inefficient use of material, with a lot going to scrap, even if they get the freehub's surface out of it too, which are the only 2 pieces he's responsible for crafting to extra tight tolerances.

    By perfect chamfers on your TP hub, do you mean that they perfectly match the head of the spokes when tensioned?
    they are perfectly and evenly chamfered around the edge of the spoke hole. on the inside of the flanges. Couldnt have done it better myself. Looks like they went in from outside the flange with a trianguler/conical cutter, smaller than the spoke hole obviusly and did it.

    yeah well all edm ive seen has been like low surface quality. I mean you are eroding material off with electricty and a carbon filament/wire in a bath. Its not a focused ion beam cutter were talking here imo. You probaby could do all hub parts ith edm though, it would just take like 100x more time to do it, and wont be any better than conventional machining, probaby worse. A good purpose for edm is for the stamp tools for coins, and thats it pretty much (if you ask me). wanna go exotic, go focused ion beam

    to make any sense out of this you have to know that you are chasing seconds per part in a cnc machine. productivity, nickles and dimes. time is money. I used to make parts that had 8h of active machining time beefy sh1t. we charged accordingly though, i think 400€ an hour (it was a very big 5-6 axis machine, prototype, one of few in that size).
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  40. #140
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    if the cl spline is made from steel its awesome. but I have a feeling its not. too much hassle probably.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  41. #141
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    FWIW Hope makes their hub pawls with EDM.

  42. #142
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    I rode 6-7" of wet snow last night, felt like I was dragging a boat anchor....I could not detect any softness in the pedal stroke.

  43. #143
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    I have been following this thread all week but I have been too busy to participate so I will just toss my thoughts in now that I have some free time and a cold beer. I have been riding my Onyx hubs for several months now, on a variety of trails. I am entirely satisfied with them, and right now would immediately choose them again if I were building another set of wheels. And my buying experience was exceptional, especially from a small and growing company. So I have what some would call a raging fanboy view of them.

    I can say that the wind-up effect is real and easily noticeable if you are looking for it. And also something I never noticed until I did look for it. I remember the first mention of it in a post here, and I thought it sounded odd so I went over to my bike and I was surprised at how much I could get the cassette to wind up against the brakes. I don't believe it is much different from the video Mikesee posted, factoring in the difference in gearing. The hubs have such a solid feel in hand that it doesn't seem possible for them to have any flex. But then when I thought about how the sprag clutch works, it didn't seem so strange. When riding, the engagement feels as instant as the hubs make it feel when you are playing with them. There may be an inherent softness that more perceptive guys than me can feel, but I think that in most riding conditions it would be very difficult to notice. And I believe that practically all of the energy put into winding up the cassette in high effort bursts is returned the instant the burst tapers into normal effort.

    All that being said, I also believe Mikesee when he says that he can feel what he describes as a sponginess. His rig and his riding are definitely on the fringes of mountain biking and he is putting some unique loads into his hubs. The nature of the hubs is to be very smooth and quiet with low friction and excellent engagement. The nature of the engagement mechanism does not allow for the solid mechanical lockup of a pawl or toothed mechanism, it's not a bug it's a feature? For me it is a feature since it just adds to the deliciously smooth feel of the wheelset. And maybe it helps protect the weaker parts of the drivetrain from shock loads. But maybe for Mikesee it is a bug since he is diving much deeper into the wind-up on a regular basis than most people ever will and he definitely feels it. From my experience, these hubs are far and away the best I have ever ridden and I no longer spend any time worrying about when my next broken hub will occur. I have rapidly developed the confidence in their strength and reliability that I hoped for from my research and conversation with Jim before purchase. They feel exactly as smooth and tight as day one and have given me zero concerns. Like all good parts, they fade into the bike and out of mind while riding. I do realize that I will need to put many more miles on them before they truly earn all of that high regard I am giving them now. But expectations are high. I hope Mikesee can find a solution to his concerns. From my understandings of the hub's strength based on what Jim told me about them and my experience with them, I don't think the wind-up is indicative of weakness. And in my riding it has zero negative impact on how they ride. But it may not be something that Mikesee can get beyond with his unique riding conditions.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonFalkenhausen View Post
    ...and he definitely feels it.
    This is really the crux. It feels odd, disconcerting, not at all like anything I've ever felt before. And I'm a (somewhat) old dog that's leery of the new and unproven.

    I understand (albeit on a basic level) that what's happening is not a durability issue. It may take some time for me to wrap my brain around that and truly trust it enough for where this bike takes me. One reason for that is that the windup manifests itself in the spokes and nips -- I can literally hear them creaking and groaning as I diesel my overloaded pig uphill. Hard to ignore that, harder still to tell myself that it's all fine.

    Jim is sending some oversized clutches for me to attempt to install. If they fit they will likely minimize the sponginess I'm feeling. If they don't he has offered to machine a slightly oversized driver to install in the current clutches. Either way it seems this problem is unique to this situation (one-off 217mm hub, uber-low gearing, heavy loads, pernickety human interface) and will be minimized shortly.

    Glass half-full perspective: Perhaps this sponginess will be all the rage in a few years, as the less harsh power transfer means less tire slip/spin on steep, scratchy climbs. You heard it here first, although Specialized will no doubt contend that and then sue everybody...

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    One reason for that is that the windup manifests itself in the spokes and nips -- I can literally hear them creaking and groaning as I diesel my overloaded pig uphill. Hard to ignore that, harder still to tell myself that it's all fine.
    But imagine if all else being the same, there was no wind-up. Hub flanges, spokes and the rim would still see the same forces that have to be there to move the bike.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    But imagine if all else being the same, there was no wind-up. Hub flanges, spokes and the rim would still see the same forces that have to be there to move the bike.
    This was my first thought, too. I think if anything, this situation would be improved with the hub smoothing out the application of torque through the wheel. And ultimately, that is what is happening here, the hub is taking the edge off of the power impulses from the rider, usually but in some cases not always imperceptibly. And sponginess is maybe not the best way to describe this effect because it could imply inefficiency, which is not the case.

    This same function is often designed into drivetrains outside of the cycling world, for example most automotive clutch discs have small coil springs set into them for smoothing out clutch take-up and power pulses from the engine.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I understand (albeit on a basic level) that what's happening is not a durability issue. It may take some time for me to wrap my brain around that and truly trust it enough for where this bike takes me.
    The strength of the sprag clutch hub design was one of the primary factors in my purchase, I have had enough problems with traditional hub designs over the years to be willing to buy myself out of worrying about it anymore. I originally was going to go with Chris King, but the silence of the Onyx Racing and TP Stealth designs had always been appealing and upon further review while waiting for my King hubs to become available I ended up going with Onyx.

    I had an interesting conversation with Jim as part of my purchase decision and durability was the focus of my questions. As I recall, and I hope Jim corrects me if I am getting any of this wrong, the hubs were tested under loads well beyond what a human cyclist could deliver, up until failure. Except they don't fail in the traditional sense in that the drive mechanism doesn't break, but at some point it will slip. And after the torque overload is removed, the hub regains full function. I can't think of another hub, with the possible exception of TP, that could survive being loaded to that point without being destroyed. Now maybe there are hubs that could handle the torque that an Onyx will slip at without breaking, but those hubs could not handle going beyond their yield point and survive like the Onyx. And even when exploring the wind-up characteristic by loading the drivetrain against the brakes, there was never a hint of slippage. I imagine the torque required to reach this point is very high indeed. And this slippage is very likely to be more pleasant than breaking a chain.

  48. #148
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    I spoke with Jim on the phone regarding things I might expect from my 197mm hub, and it is obv that he is very passionate about his products. I think about how far out of his way Jim went to create a custom hub for a customer, and how that customer found it appropriate to post negative reviews before getting everything sorted out with Onyx. I don't know if this is equivalent to a slap in the face, but its close.

    I applaud Mikesee for pushing the limits of fat biking and what can be done with the latest and greatest prototype gear, and his adventures are very inspirational. But the last few pages of this thread are the exact reason manufacturers don't want to put themselves out there regarding new gear w/o proper testing. Up until this point there have been zero negative reviews regarding the performance of any mainstream products from Onyx , but now that an untested/unproven prototype has been into use a negative cloud has been cast upon onyx.

    Maybe Jim should have make Mike sign a non-disclosure agreement, maybe he should have left him hanging w/o a hub at all. But Jim helped make this bike happen, and what does he get in return? Not trying to be a jerk, but honestly this is the worst possible way to reward someone for their hard work, especially when they will go out of their way regardless of additional costs to help make it right.

    End rant/

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I think about how far out of his way Jim went to create a custom hub for a customer, and how that customer found it appropriate to post negative reviews before getting everything sorted out with Onyx. I don't know if this is equivalent to a slap in the face, but its close.
    ..........
    End rant/
    I disagree

    Thread: Onyx Racing Hubs - Sprag Clutch vs other types of Engagement

    The topic seems pretty relevant to this thread^

    The windup seems to be inherent to the design and is no big deal, and maybe even a bonus for some. Possibly not so good for others on a fully loaded fat bike. I didn't read it as a negative review, more of a ride report. Maybe I missed some posts?

  50. #150
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    The designed windup certainly doesn't prevent me from wanting an Onyx hub badly. Not going to feel it anyway as my gear ratios don't go below 1.1 (and usually it's 2.0 or near).

    My only wishes would be a 6061 forged (then machined where needed) shell instead of 7075 fully machined one; and maybe bolts a-la Paul WORD for the bolt-up version, so there's a smooth piece going in dropouts, preventing wear in case the axle slips against dropout under load.

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I spoke with Jim on the phone regarding things I might expect from my 197mm hub, and it is obv that he is very passionate about his products. I think about how far out of his way Jim went to create a custom hub for a customer, and how that customer found it appropriate to post negative reviews before getting everything sorted out with Onyx. I don't know if this is equivalent to a slap in the face, but its close.

    I applaud Mikesee for pushing the limits of fat biking and what can be done with the latest and greatest prototype gear, and his adventures are very inspirational. But the last few pages of this thread are the exact reason manufacturers don't want to put themselves out there regarding new gear w/o proper testing. Up until this point there have been zero negative reviews regarding the performance of any mainstream products from Onyx , but now that an untested/unproven prototype has been into use a negative cloud has been cast upon onyx.

    Maybe Jim should have make Mike sign a non-disclosure agreement, maybe he should have left him hanging w/o a hub at all. But Jim helped make this bike happen, and what does he get in return? Not trying to be a jerk, but honestly this is the worst possible way to reward someone for their hard work, especially when they will go out of their way regardless of additional costs to help make it right.

    End rant/
    Holy handwringing, Batman.

    Nowhere in this thread has Onyx been disparaged by me. At every step along the way I have been up-front that this is a 'feel thing', and that the hub merely presented a different reality from the one I expected. Has it failed? No. Have I suggested that it did? No.

    Jim and I talked on the phone a few days ago. The conversation was amicable, I suppose because he possesses reading comprehension abilities greater than those of the average MTBR poster. If he was bothered by anything written here by me, he didn't mention it. His willingness to send oversized sprags and (potentially) machine and ship a new driver seem evidence of such.

    I've built many Onyx hubs to date for my customers. I will build many more.

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I've built many Onyx hubs to date for my customers. I will build many more.
    Hehe so I can officially envy you now :-p

    Around here it's most likely the first and the only Onyx I'll get to build in the foreseeable future will be my own, just like it is with TP.

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    Hehe so I can officially envy you now :-p

    Around here it's most likely the first and the only Onyx I'll get to build in the foreseeable future will be my own, just like it is with TP.
    Onyx will grow as a result of feedback from customers, this is all part of growing pains. I now know 16 people that have Onyx hubs in DE, many more to come!!

  54. #154
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    They're becoming pretty popular here. They and DT are my LBS's go-to hubs.

  55. #155
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    Down with the ratchets! Viva la silent clutch revolución!

  56. #156
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    Yesterday, rode my "other" bike with 240s hub. Wow, after riding my Onyx rear for so long, the 240s felt awful. Constantly aware of the ratchet sound, and the 36t engagement felt, well, archaic. I didn't notice so much going up to the Onyx, yes, I liked the noiseless motion, and the engagement, but the real test was going back to the traditional hub.
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  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    Yesterday, rode my "other" bike with 240s hub. Wow, after riding my Onyx rear for so long, the 240s felt awful. Constantly aware of the ratchet sound, and the 36t engagement felt, well, archaic. I didn't notice so much going up to the Onyx, yes, I liked the noiseless motion, and the engagement, but the real test was going back to the traditional hub.
    I love when people say that notice absolutely no difference between riding an Onyx hub and riding an 18 POE DT Swiss
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  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I love when people say that notice absolutely no difference between riding an Onyx hub and riding an 18 POE DT Swiss
    A difference in noise, when coasting?

    Absolutely.

    Otherwise? Nada.

    I'm glad that the engagement snobs have another quality option in Onyx. I'm also glad I'm not afflicted with that psychological issue...

    P.S. And I'll gladly take all of those worthless old 240s hubs off of people's hands, to save them from excess garage clutter...

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    A difference in noise, when coasting?

    Absolutely.

    Otherwise? Nada.

    I'm glad that the engagement snobs have another quality option in Onyx. I'm also glad I'm not afflicted with that psychological issue...

    P.S. And I'll gladly take all of those worthless old 240s hubs off of people's hands, to save them from excess garage clutter...
    I can't see how you can say that you notice no difference in engagement between a high POE hub and a low POE hub a with a straight face.



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  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I can't see how you can say that you notice no difference in engagement between a high POE hub and a low POE hub a with a straight face.
    I'm actually laughing when I say it, but I'm also 100% serious about the fact. Even when looking for it I just don't notice it. And I think it's funny, in a cute sort of way, that people like to get so worked up about it.

    I once went and visited a friend that has some very, very technical trails in his backyard. He's very proud of them, and loves to show people around. He told me in no uncertain terms that I would 'get destroyed' and 'have my lunch eaten' by these trails if I showed up with a low POE hub.

    Knowing that POE has just never mattered, I made a note of his hype but said nothing.

    We spent 5+ hours out on his trails that day, playing and sessioning and rock crawling to our heart's content. In the end he made a few moves I didn't, and I made a few he didn't. More or less a draw. He's stronger than I, but more risk averse. The moves that he made that I couldn't were due to his strength. The ones that I made that he didn't were largely because I was willing to commit to something riskier. Hub engagement simply had no part in it.

    When I asked him, later, where the trails were that were going to "destroy" me, he just shook his head and said he'd never seen anyone do so well on such a 'crappy' (<-his actual word) hub.

    And, just as before, I simply didn't understand the hype. I can see a *minor* benefit for gate starts, but beyond that engagement is just something for people to talk about, and it makes no real difference on the trail.

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I can't see how you can say that you notice no difference in engagement between a high POE hub and a low POE hub a with a straight face.
    I've used 54t, 36t, and 18t Star Ratchets in my DT hubs. Used other, higher engagement hubs as well (King, etc).

    Don't notice any difference besides the pitch/frequency.

    I will also take your old-tech, worthless, low-POE DT 240s off of you. I'll even pay shipping.
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  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I'm actually laughing when I say it, but I'm also 100% serious about the fact. Even when looking for it I just don't notice it. And I think it's funny, in a cute sort of way, that people like to get so worked up about it.

    I once went and visited a friend that has some very, very technical trails in his backyard. He's very proud of them, and loves to show people around. He told me in no uncertain terms that I would 'get destroyed' and 'have my lunch eaten' by these trails if I showed up with a low POE hub.

    Knowing that POE has just never mattered, I made a note of his hype but said nothing.

    We spent 5+ hours out on his trails that day, playing and sessioning and rock crawling to our heart's content. In the end he made a few moves I didn't, and I made a few he didn't. More or less a draw. He's stronger than I, but more risk averse. The moves that he made that I couldn't were due to his strength. The ones that I made that he didn't were largely because I was willing to commit to something riskier. Hub engagement simply had no part in it.

    When I asked him, later, where the trails were that were going to "destroy" me, he just shook his head and said he'd never seen anyone do so well on such a 'crappy' (<-his actual word) hub.

    And, just as before, I simply didn't understand the hype. I can see a *minor* benefit for gate starts, but beyond that engagement is just something for people to talk about, and it makes no real difference on the trail.
    I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point. No need rehashing our different views for pages

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  63. #163
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    What is the difference between the HyperGlide and regular Onyx mountain bike hubs?

    Ed.

    What does Onyx mean by "Widget" on the order menu?

  64. #164
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    ^^^ I have thought the same...HyperGlide and regular. The Onyx Web site leaves something to be desired when it comes to providing good product description and information.

    I have always thought of the Widgets as end caps, but that might not be correct.
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  65. #165
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    HyperGlide marked hubs are for Shimano cassettes, and for SRAM XD ones they should be marked XD I guess.

    I saw the drive side nut that locks the axle to the driver body bearing's inner race being called "the widget" in one of Onyx maintenance videos.

  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    HyperGlide marked hubs are for Shimano cassettes, and for SRAM XD ones they should be marked XD I guess.
    I don't know if I saw it noted anywhere, but if you are using a 10spd cassette with an Onyx hub you NEED a 1.8mm spacer between your largest cog and the fh body for it to work correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    I saw the drive side nut that locks the axle to the driver body bearing's inner race being called "the widget" in one of Onyx maintenance videos.
    I am "guessing" they might not have had their naming convention dialed in when they made the videos. It was clear the person in the video was being coached, and really didn't know much about the correct procedures.
    Last edited by jonshonda; 04-01-2016 at 01:46 PM.

  67. #167
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    Onyx MTB freehubs are 11 speed compatible. For the two frames with conventional 10mm dropouts I've installed a MTB Onyx non-XD on, Shimano 10speed cassettes need a 2.8mm spacer, SRAM a 1.8mm spacer. Both manufacturer's cassettes had room for an additional 1mm worth of spacer(s).

  68. #168
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    Onyx sent out a quick response.

    Didn't realize HG was the free hub body. Was curious if it had to do with internals.

    Interesting that a shop I was in yesterday had a super old yet new Shimano Silent Clutch rear hub in the display case. And now this

  69. #169
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    We have numerous free hub bodies available (8-currently), depending on the hub model. The four categories they all fall into are: Shimano-HG (Hyper-Glide Compatible), SRAM-XD (XD Compatible), Campagnolo 11-Speed, and a Onyx Proprietary one for our 20mm rear BMX hub. I'm sure you will hear these terms used in may different ways, I even been asked if we make Shimano XD free hub bodies, and no we don't, lol.

    We do refer to the drive side nut, non-drive side spacers and cinch-nuts as widgets. We do this because they are offered in many different colors. Currently our "widgets" are available in Black, Red, Blue, Gold, Purple, Pink, Polished, Orange and Green. When our website is a little further along, this will be shown graphically to avoid confusion.

    Yes, our video link we've sent to a few people was done on the fly, impromptu at best. We are working on our videos weekly and posting them to our YouTube channel, which a link is available on the homepage of our website. www.onyxrp.com

    All our MTB & Road Shimano-HG free hub bodies are 11-Speed Spaced and are marked accordingly. We did this specifically to help future proof the hub compatibility for cassettes that will have more than 11-speeds. So if you use a 10-speed spaced cassette, like all 11-speed MTB cassettes currently are, you will need to use a 1.85mm spacer behind the cassette to get the correct spacing. It is different I know, but during our design phase we had the option to make a few small adjustments that would allow this feature to be added. We have been recently adding a sticker and a spacer to all of these free hubs indicating this, even though the free hub body is clearly marked "11-Speed".

  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonFalkenhausen View Post
    I have been following this thread all week but I have been too busy to participate so I will just toss my thoughts in now that I have some free time and a cold beer. I have been riding my Onyx hubs for several months now, on a variety of trails. I am entirely satisfied with them, and right now would immediately choose them again if I were building another set of wheels. And my buying experience was exceptional, especially from a small and growing company. So I have what some would call a raging fanboy view of them.

    I can say that the wind-up effect is real and easily noticeable if you are looking for it. And also something I never noticed until I did look for it. I remember the first mention of it in a post here, and I thought it sounded odd so I went over to my bike and I was surprised at how much I could get the cassette to wind up against the brakes. I don't believe it is much different from the video Mikesee posted, factoring in the difference in gearing. The hubs have such a solid feel in hand that it doesn't seem possible for them to have any flex. But then when I thought about how the sprag clutch works, it didn't seem so strange. When riding, the engagement feels as instant as the hubs make it feel when you are playing with them. There may be an inherent softness that more perceptive guys than me can feel, but I think that in most riding conditions it would be very difficult to notice. And I believe that practically all of the energy put into winding up the cassette in high effort bursts is returned the instant the burst tapers into normal effort.

    All that being said, I also believe Mikesee when he says that he can feel what he describes as a sponginess. His rig and his riding are definitely on the fringes of mountain biking and he is putting some unique loads into his hubs. The nature of the hubs is to be very smooth and quiet with low friction and excellent engagement. The nature of the engagement mechanism does not allow for the solid mechanical lockup of a pawl or toothed mechanism, it's not a bug it's a feature? For me it is a feature since it just adds to the deliciously smooth feel of the wheelset. And maybe it helps protect the weaker parts of the drivetrain from shock loads. But maybe for Mikesee it is a bug since he is diving much deeper into the wind-up on a regular basis than most people ever will and he definitely feels it. From my experience, these hubs are far and away the best I have ever ridden and I no longer spend any time worrying about when my next broken hub will occur. I have rapidly developed the confidence in their strength and reliability that I hoped for from my research and conversation with Jim before purchase. They feel exactly as smooth and tight as day one and have given me zero concerns. Like all good parts, they fade into the bike and out of mind while riding. I do realize that I will need to put many more miles on them before they truly earn all of that high regard I am giving them now. But expectations are high. I hope Mikesee can find a solution to his concerns. From my understandings of the hub's strength based on what Jim told me about them and my experience with them, I don't think the wind-up is indicative of weakness. And in my riding it has zero negative impact on how they ride. But it may not be something that Mikesee can get beyond with his unique riding conditions.
    this actually disappoints me a little. i was under the impression that these would be as solid as the tp's but newer better tech, maybe more long lasting?? But it seems its isn't so. It seems these are not as solid as the 10-15yo tp's. I have the tp's and they are rock solid. Its an industrial clutch that has been made for ages. Only torque limiting feature is how well you sheild it with metal all round. unshielded in air i think it takes 30nm or so but beef it up it takes much more.

    I've had my tp's apart now several times just for fun and for that hub to even budge a single degree after engagement it means my hub shell has exploded. and it has not exploded yet. I'm only 70kg though. I run a 42 up front and a 11-30 out back. if yoy want to know.

    the tp's are 0,fukn 0% spongy.
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  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    this actually disappoints me a little. i was under the impression that these would be as solid as the tp's but newer better tech, maybe more long lasting?? But it seems its isn't so.
    In order to arrive at this conclusion you have either buried your head in the sand, or you lack reading comprehension, or you simply didn't read but chose to post this to feel better about your purchase.

    All of which says more about you than Onyx.

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    In order to arrive at this conclusion you have either buried your head in the sand, or you lack reading comprehension, or you simply didn't read but chose to post this to feel better about your purchase.

    All of which says more about you than Onyx.
    I have read the whole thread yes!

    I dont give a f about my "purchase"! I can afford my hub. i bought it about 8 years ago. I dont give f about money. they come, they go. I spend it. so yes I dont give a fuk about money.
    and no i neither lack reading comprehension or englicz comprehension at all.


    I feel much better now?
    do you feel better?

    I'm actually listening to modern talking now, lol.

    good luck dude. drench yourself in blow. and go from there.
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  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    this actually disappoints me a little. i was under the impression that these would be as solid as the tp's but newer better tech, maybe more long lasting?? But it seems its isn't so. It seems these are not as solid as the 10-15yo tp's. I have the tp's and they are rock solid. Its an industrial clutch that has been made for ages. Only torque limiting feature is how well you sheild it with metal all round. unshielded in air i think it takes 30nm or so but beef it up it takes much more.

    I've had my tp's apart now several times just for fun and for that hub to even budge a single degree after engagement it means my hub shell has exploded. and it has not exploded yet. I'm only 70kg though. I run a 42 up front and a 11-30 out back. if yoy want to know.

    the tp's are 0,fukn 0% spongy.
    I definitely would not describe my Onyx Racing hub as spongy, I thought I made that clear. Not my description, and it was only used by one guy in a very unique situation. I first saw TP hubs many years ago at Interbike when they were new, and I thought they were interesting then but it was Onyx that finally got me to come off of my Chris King lust. I believe that the sprags are a superior design and I am completely satisfied with the performance of my hubs. Sprags are well established technology and are essentially an evolution of the roller clutch. From what I have seen, the Onyx hubs have less freehub drag than the TP hubs, and probably any other hub on the market, they are by far the smoothest and most friction-free hubs I have seen. Mine remain just as smooth and free as when new, and just as solid feeling. It is not easy to describe but it is an interesting sensation, how solid and yet free-spinning these things are. Any wind-up is simply a characteristic of the hubs, and it is truly unnoticeable in normal riding. It is quite possible that it is a positive feature although I think it is mostly a non-issue since I didn't even realize it existed until reading about it and checking for myself on my own bike. I am a big guy and I can push pretty damn hard and these are the best feeling hubs I have ever used.

    I would be interested to see your TP hub put to the same wind-up test that Mikesee posted, not to prove anything but just to see if they also have any wind-up, trust me it is possible for a hub to be and feel solid and still have that characteristic. In holding the hubs and playing with them on the stand, you would never even think about any wind-up, the engagement just feels spooky fast and solid. To me it is the same on the trail. It wouldn't change my impression of TP either way, I think they are also a very good product but obviously I am an Onyx fan. But I am curious if it is a characteristic of the general type of hub or the specific type of clutch mechanism, since in the big picture TP and Onyx seem to have more in common than they are different. Although this test might be deceptive with your gear setup, you are geared pretty high and that doesn't give you anything close to the torque multiplication that Mikesee's rig can generate.

  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    ...for that hub to even budge a single degree after engagement it means my hub shell has exploded.
    The thing about Onyx' design is that it won't explode - it'll slip to release the torque, then as torque is reapplied, it'll go back about its business unscathed. Granted that would be at torque levels above what a human could generate...

  75. #175
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    That little bit of 'give' from the sprags engaging results in better climbing traction. At least, that's my feel of what's going on. Instead of that normal hard engagement of a regular hub, this instant sprag engagement feels 'damped' (for lack of a better word). This will be more noticeable in the lower, higher torque gears.

    The best description I can think of is a clutch on a dirtbike. If you let the clutch out fast, that would be like a regular hub engagement. If you feather the clutch, that would be like an Onyx hub. Does that makes sense?

    If you haven't tried one, do it. It won't make you faster or really even ride better. But for pure feel and enjoyment, it checks all the boxes.

  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derp View Post
    That little bit of 'give' from the sprags engaging results in better climbing traction. At least, that's my feel of what's going on. Instead of that normal hard engagement of a regular hub, this instant sprag engagement feels 'damped' (for lack of a better word). This will be more noticeable in the lower, higher torque gears.

    The best description I can think of is a clutch on a dirtbike. If you let the clutch out fast, that would be like a regular hub engagement. If you feather the clutch, that would be like an Onyx hub. Does that makes sense?

    If you haven't tried one, do it. It won't make you faster or really even ride better. But for pure feel and enjoyment, it checks all the boxes.
    after reading all this I was beginning to wonder if I made the right decision buying a set of onyx hubs ... Guess I will know in the next couple weeks as they are sitting in the box

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derp View Post
    That little bit of 'give' from the sprags engaging results in better climbing traction. At least, that's my feel of what's going on. Instead of that normal hard engagement of a regular hub, this instant sprag engagement feels 'damped' (for lack of a better word). This will be more noticeable in the lower, higher torque gears.

    The best description I can think of is a clutch on a dirtbike. If you let the clutch out fast, that would be like a regular hub engagement. If you feather the clutch, that would be like an Onyx hub. Does that makes sense?

    If you haven't tried one, do it. It won't make you faster or really even ride better. But for pure feel and enjoyment, it checks all the boxes.
    You are right, there should be a better word to describe this characteristic. Damped is better than spongy, but still not quite right. I get your comparison with a dirtbike clutch, although there is substantial energy lost in that type of clutch. Any energy loss in Onyx's application of a sprag clutch would be so tiny as to be unmeasurable and certainly more than made up for by the excellent low-friction performance of hub overall and particularly the freehub in coasting.

    I personally can't really notice the effect while riding other than the hubs just plain feel great. But I find your comment on climbing traction to be interesting, my climbing prowess has been improved by my wheelset, which I attributed to the rims and tires but any smoothing of power pulses certainly isn't hurting traction.

    I have mentioned this before, but automotive clutch designers go to great effort to design a spring into clutch disks to smooth out power impulses that also conserves rotational energy, maybe Onyx has an extra little feature that while unintentional is beneficial? Bicycles definitely have more uneven power pulses than IC engines, except for maybe Harleys. As an Onyx customer who has drank the Kool-Aide I may have motivation to avoid finding fault with my hubs, but I am generally critical where appropriate and I remain very happy with my purchase. My next bike will definitely be rolling on Onyx Racing hubs, too.

  78. #178
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    My buddy and I joke about this thread every time we trade wheels or I have my fat bike out. We now reference this thread every time a tricky section comes up and I might not clear it! "Better spool up that rear hub", or "did that hub just make you overshoot that corner".

    imho lots of drama for something that isn't an issue. ymmv.

  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    My buddy and I joke about this thread every time we trade wheels or I have my fat bike out. We now reference this thread every time a tricky section comes up and I might not clear it! "Better spool up that rear hub", or "did that hub just make you overshoot that corner".

    imho lots of drama for something that isn't an issue. ymmv.
    Did you also know that the new "boost" hubs are not just a new spacing standard? They literally have a built in "boost" feature that gives you extra umph. Only available from Onyx.
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  80. #180
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    So. Because the sprags are always engaged, backpedaling will cause wheel spin? Is this normal?

    It's always bothered me that I can backspin a WTB Laserlight and no wheel spin occurs. Not the case w/ the Onyx hub. The WTB will also out spin the onyx.

  81. #181
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    Backpedaling causes sprags to slip with very little friction, while staying engaged, that's the thing.

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    So. Because the sprags are always engaged, backpedaling will cause wheel spin? Is this normal?

    It's always bothered me that I can backspin a WTB Laserlight and no wheel spin occurs. Not the case w/ the Onyx hub. The WTB will also out spin the onyx.
    You are mistaken. Out of the box brand new the Onyx has outspun any other hub I have ever tried. Once they are broke in, it's not even a fair spin off

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  83. #183
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  84. #184
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    The hub has about 1,200 miles on it. It would backspin the wheel at 0 miles.

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    The hub has about 1,200 miles on it. It would backspin the wheel at 0 miles.
    I would consider a little backspin normal an any hub. Some more than others.

    You will see more of an effect with lighter rims and tires like you have when compared to a heavy rim and tires.

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  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    My buddy and I joke about this thread every time we trade wheels or I have my fat bike out. We now reference this thread every time a tricky section comes up and I might not clear it! "Better spool up that rear hub", or "did that hub just make you overshoot that corner".

    imho lots of drama for something that isn't an issue. ymmv.
    lol
    'bout right
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  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I would consider a little backspin normal an any hub.
    My Onyx has so much backspin I can actually ride up hills backwards. I am surprised they don't list this feature on their website.

    For serious though...why the f4ck would it bother you enough to take the time to create a video, post it on youtube, and link it here?

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    My Onyx has so much backspin I can actually ride up hills backwards. I am surprised they don't list this feature on their website.

    For serious though...why the f4ck would it bother you enough to take the time to create a video, post it on youtube, and link it here?
    Because I may have a bad hub.

  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    For serious though...why the f4ck would it bother you enough to take the time to create a video, post it on youtube, and link it here?
    That's drag... something I thought the lack of was a selling point for these hubs. Isn't the huge weight penalty a trade-off for something good?
    I just checked the two bikes I have in my office and neither my Hope SS nor my Ultegra hub do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  90. #190
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    FYI, the hub has a bearing preload cinch nut. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g5J2lPi5KQ

    Setting preload correctly reduces freehub drag. Too much preload will bind it.

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillDancer View Post
    FYI, the hub has a bearing preload cinch nut. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g5J2lPi5KQ

    Setting preload correctly reduces freehub drag. Too much preload will bind it.
    Yeah...
    3rd post on this thread.

  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    Yeah...
    3rd post on this thread.
    So you have adjusted the preload on the bearings, and have the correct grease/amount of grease in the bearings and on the sprags, and you have contacted Onyx, and there is no solution?

    When coasting in the stand, does it spin longer than your other hubs?

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    ...I have the drive side cap threaded on finger tight...
    Quote Originally Posted by HillDancer View Post
    FYI, the hub has a bearing preload cinch nut...
    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    Yeah...
    3rd post on this thread.
    Remove the NDS end cap, insert an awl, rod, or hex key through the holes on the end of the axle, tighten the DS end nut with 19mm socket (thin wall deepset preferred) to 35 lb inch/4Nm, while holding the axle with securing rod. Loosen the pinch bolt in the cinch nut with 2.5mm hex, rotate cinch nut counter clockwise to loosen or clockwise to tighten. If the NDS end cup resists removal in the first step, unscrew the DS nut, lightly tap the axle through & remove, loosen cinch nut & unscrew to push end cap off. Use this opportunity to clean & lightly grease contact surfaces.

    After adjusting bearing pre-load on my Onyx hub, I back pedal my crank as performed in the video, the wheel begins to back spin, then rotates forward as sealant re-pools in the tire, all the while the crank reverse rotates merrily along. In my opinion the back spin in the video doesn't look so bad, especially compared to my bushing supported Mavic hubs.

  94. #194
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    I've adjusted the preload and the hub internals are spotless. I have not touched the sprag assembly, but the lube looks clean. I have had onyx look at the hub, they replaced the driver and one of the bearings. They also adjusted the pre-load. I've compared the onyx spin to a dt240s, a wtb laserlight, a novatec d772, and a bont xxx. They all seam to spin better. Each time I pull the end cap off a dark grey oil is eaking out of the bearing seal. I think the tolerances are a bit tight, and causing the bearing to deform once it's pressed into the shell. Maybe the sprag portion of the shell is also a little tight? I love the silent / infinite engagement. But the drag....

  95. #195
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    natron5000, give me a call and I'll see what's going on here. 320-295-7652 and ask for Jim.

    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    I've adjusted the preload and the hub internals are spotless. I have not touched the sprag assembly, but the lube looks clean. I have had onyx look at the hub, they replaced the driver and one of the bearings. They also adjusted the pre-load. I've compared the onyx spin to a dt240s, a wtb laserlight, a novatec d772, and a bont xxx. They all seam to spin better. Each time I pull the end cap off a dark grey oil is eaking out of the bearing seal. I think the tolerances are a bit tight, and causing the bearing to deform once it's pressed into the shell. Maybe the sprag portion of the shell is also a little tight? I love the silent / infinite engagement. But the drag....

  96. #196
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    I was adjusting the pre-load off the bike. (S/b done on the bike - operator error....)
    Jim you're a stand up guy w/ an amazing product.

  97. #197
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    ^Interesting.

  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    I was adjusting the pre-load off the bike. (S/b done on the bike - operator error....)
    Jim you're a stand up guy w/ an amazing product.
    Like how you leave a little play in a cup-and-cone hub when adjusted off the bike to account for compression by the skewer... makes sense.
    Thanks for following up.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Like how you leave a little play in a cup-and-cone hub when adjusted off the bike to account for compression by the skewer... makes sense.
    Thanks for following up.
    Yep. As soon as I cranked down on my axle, I was probably side loading the outer bearings.

  100. #200
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    i can't tell from searching websites. what is the freehub body made of? i'm assuming it's stainless or similar given the high end nature of this hub. mar free?

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