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  1. #1
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    Oldschool quality, White Ind or Phil Wood?

    Thinking about buying a silver hubset. Weight doesn't really matter, quality does.

    Which are the best ones of these? I'm talking hub life.

    Anyone using any of these that can tell a story and how long they have lasted so far. I'm not really into CK/I9/hadley. I want either White or PW thats it. Post your stories. I have to admit I'm kinda leaning towards White because they have slightly more poe and I like the look better.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  2. #2
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    They're both extremely high quality parts... the phil wood is a boat anchor and insanely expensive though. Subjective, but its also a fairly unattractive part.

    I think WI wins.

  3. #3
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    Are the PWs still 18 or 16 poe? 24 I can live with but 18 not so much.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  4. #4
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    If White makes them the same today that was made in the 90s, stay away. I owned White industries hubs years ago. They were very light but the rear had some serious drawbacks. First, the paul system was awful. It had tiny medal flaps as springs for the pauls that would somewhow come loose and get garbled-up within the hub. Also, the hub was dependent on a 2mm allen key that would often loosen. I informed White and was told the steel axel provided better grip for the tiny bolt (this was after I had already shelled-out for the titanium one)

    Hopefully, White has improved. But make sure.

  5. #5
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    That same pawl system is most likely used in all hubs that even remotely similar. Only question is; do you make the springs out of real spring steel or craptanium, from the landfill? I have seen that system before and i am familiar with it, its usually no problem. As for the pawls ending up inside the hub thats not good, a design flaw.

    I have a 2mm allen. I just hope the hub doesw not depend on it for things such as prealoading of similar, and that i'm not just tightening a bolt onto a polished axle.

    I like the shimano hubs since they are cup and cone type, this is a really good system. But now I want something high end. i just don't want to buy somethning that is infact lowend from a function/mechanical view.

    Do not want!
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    That same pawl system is most likely used in all hubs that even remotely similar. Only question is; do you make the springs out of real spring steel or craptanium, from the landfill? I have seen that system before and i am familiar with it, its usually no problem. As for the pawls ending up inside the hub thats not good, a design flaw.

    I have a 2mm allen. I just hope the hub doesw not depend on it for things such as prealoading of similar, and that i'm not just tightening a bolt onto a polished axle.

    I like the shimano hubs since they are cup and cone type, this is a really good system. But now I want something high end. i just don't want to buy somethning that is infact lowend from a function/mechanical view.

    Do not want!
    The 2mm in the White I owned screwed into the polished axel. That is why they recommended I switch to a steel axel. I was told the bolt would grasp the steel better. As a result, your 2mm will come in handy with the same type. High end DT Swiss (240s) and Chris King (I'm pretty sure) use very different systems (which in my opinion are superior to the Whites I had).

    Again, I do not know if there has been a design change.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah View Post
    If White makes them the same today that was made in the 90s, stay away. I owned White industries hubs years ago. They were very light but the rear had some serious drawbacks. First, the paul system was awful. It had tiny medal flaps as springs for the pauls that would somewhow come loose and get garbled-up within the hub. Also, the hub was dependent on a 2mm allen key that would often loosen. I informed White and was told the steel axel provided better grip for the tiny bolt (this was after I had already shelled-out for the titanium one)

    Hopefully, White has improved. But make sure.
    Ditto. Had them - hated them. They were purty though. Hopefully at some point in the last 15 years or so they have changed them...

  8. #8
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    It looks like they still have the small leaf springs and 2mm. Who knows, maybe they work better today. But the similarities are strking. Agree with the above poster. They are nice looking hubs.

    http://www.whiteind.com/images/REAR_HUB_ADJUSTMENT.pdf

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    That same pawl system is most likely used in all hubs that even remotely similar. Only question is; do you make the springs out of real spring steel or craptanium, from the landfill? I have seen that system before and i am familiar with it, its usually no problem. As for the pawls ending up inside the hub thats not good, a design flaw.

    I have a 2mm allen. I just hope the hub doesw not depend on it for things such as prealoading of similar, and that i'm not just tightening a bolt onto a polished axle.

    I like the shimano hubs since they are cup and cone type, this is a really good system. But now I want something high end. i just don't want to buy somethning that is infact lowend from a function/mechanical view.

    Do not want!
    I have a couple sets of WI hubs.

    The FH/pawls are fine. Never had a issue.

    The bearings are not very well protected if you ride in wet weather. I did have problems with the setscrews when I tried to service the bearings--would not loosen. Since I was also building new wheels I sent the hubs in to be rebuilt (after calling). Had them back in less than two weeks with new bearings, a new rear axle and a extra set of front end caps I asked about, all for under $60.


    The bearings are EXTREMELY free rolling. I once broke a chain near the end of a ride. Mostly down hill to the end so I just coasted w/o the chain. The FH/cassette did not turn with the hub shell.

    Plus great looks and reasonable weight.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I I did have problems with the setscrews when I tried to service the bearings--would not loosen.
    Did you strip it? I seem to recall something like that happening to me. I always wondered why White didn't use at least a 3. My guess is that it could be engineered.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah View Post
    Did you strip it? I seem to recall something like that happening to me. I always wondered why White didn't use at least a 3. My guess is that it could be engineered.
    Part of the problem was a bearing was seized and I could not rotate the axle to the access hole.
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  12. #12
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    Hi guys and thanks for your replies. I also saw that WI pdf, those hubs are really growing on me, real steel axle! Steel freehub! 4 (stainless?) bearings! And yet so light.

    I'm comparing to DT which has only 2 bearings, alu freehub, less poe and alu axle. That DT is really underperforming materialwise. And the weirdest thing is that the Dt is like the most expensive hub on the market, but I get no good features (according to me).

    I have tried to find out whats inside all these expensive hubs.

    First the WI, its looks as expected, maybe a little better, it seems like well built hub, and no special tools needed.

    Then I went to look at all the dox on kings site, and not really to my surprise that hub is seriously overly complex. Just have a look at the exploded view! It must be twice as many parts inside there as everything else on the market. And it needs service like every week, and you need special tools, expensive tools. And if you have good tension in the wheels then the bearing preload stops working, alu axle, loud. Expensive. Special grease?? I could go on here.. DISQUALIFIED

    DT dox. Well at first I thought I was missing some vital info on their site, but its only 2 bearings in a DT. The ratchet is 18p and a 36p is available if you want the hub to last 2 laps around the block alu axle, alu freehub, which is not what I want and quite low poe. Expensive, and even more expensive if I want some higher poe in there and a steel freehub if it even exists at all any more. I was expecting to find lots and lots and lots of broken DTs all over the web but to my surprise there are almost none to be found, so they must be something right. DISQUALIFIED (for this time at least).

    Hopes are not really high durability from my quick search and I would need a steel freehub making them just as expensive as a WI. Minus the steel axle. Do not want.

    XTR quite expensive and really nothing special, I'm not at all impressed. No cup and cone anymore. I move on.

    Phil Wood seems kinda sturdy. 550grams sturdy. Only 20 poe. Expensive. It seems like its pretty well designed and built. Everything seems like its made to last as long as possible and built to the highest possible standards, at least it seems like it. WI is only 4 poe more. I wanted to see how it looked inside and I found some pics. http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-078.html And it looks like its almost the same mechanism as a Hadley.

    Hadley. I don't know what to make of it, its seems well built. There is a site somewhere where they tear it apart, good pix there. I have a question about this one.

    If one were to change the bearings to better sealed ones can I expect it to last a long time before changing them again?? Like 5 years long
    The hadley is interesting and its not that expensive either, but it needs better bearings from what I understand so I would have to factor in that.

    All this hub porn got me so exited I had to tear my true precision apart just to see how it looks inside. And to my surprise its super easy. Loosen 1 small hex, spin off the collar ring and the axle slips out, pop off the freehub and thats it. I found that taking it apart further would require a wooden or plastic rod and small hammer but thats it pretty much. Compared to most of the other hubs this one is pure genious, its so simple. I found 3 regular bearings inside it and one needle roller bearing. And one of these Drawn cup roller clutches - HF3020

    I'm even more undecied now on what hub to get since the Hadley seems kinda good too. All I know is that my black TPs needs silver friends for the winter.

    BTW does anyone know if black anodized rims can be "unanodized" easily? I want silver "disc" rims to go with them but those went out of fashion 10 years ago.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  13. #13
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    Most times a hub is just a hub . . . .

  14. #14
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    Phil Wood hubs require VERY little maintenance. Hadley's need more....both will last a lifetime!

  15. #15
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    Dt swiss has 4 large bearings in their rear hubs, and they're well sealed. They're really excellent hubs.. only downside is their lack of POE. If they could manage a 50+ pt engagement ring that was reliable, they'd be the best thing out there.

  16. #16
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    How about Royce?

    Or Paul Components?

  17. #17
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    I saw the royces the other day. But there is no info on them, like poe? What mechanism?

    I didn't know the dts had 4 bearings, when looking at the manuals I only found 2, weird.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I saw the royces the other day. But there is no info on them, like poe? What mechanism?

    I didn't know the dts had 4 bearings, when looking at the manuals I only found 2, weird.
    Two of the bearings are in the FH body. Same as most other cartridge bearing hubs
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  19. #19
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    Annodizing -
    I have removed annodizing on motorcycle parts with "Eazy Off" oven cleaner. Got the tip from the vintage motorcycle crowd. Google it and see what you think.

    I had a WI ENO on a 26" SS I had a few years back. I put some serious miles on that thing - always seemed like it would spin forever. Never had an issue.

  20. #20
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    Have 2 sets of WI hubs, 3 and 5 years old. They work great and I haven't done a thing to them yet...everything's still nice and tight and the spin forever. The tiny set screw is a worry for when I go to take them apart, so we'll see if my opinion changes then.

    Also, the WI hub can be had with a Ti driveshell for like $60...

    I think these hubs look sweet also (just to confuse the issue!).
    Profile Racing E-Store
    whatever...

  21. #21
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    Phil Wood! Phil Wood! Phil Wood! They have no match.
    Long after this thread has become dormant I stumbled on it and decided to post.

    In 2000 I purchased Phil Wood hubs (36h, solid axle). They have never required service. Prior to these hubs I never managed more than 500 miles without bent axles. I have ridden them into a badger hole at high speed with no damage. I once rode up a 9"
    granite curb in the dark. No damage .... but I suppose this is a greater testament to the rims. .... My Reynolds 501 frame failed a month later.

    1) I am 6'8" and around 350lb
    2) I tour solo in remote areas a LONG distance from anything and 1000 miles
    from family and friends. (example: I crossed the Boundary waters by canoe and started
    riding again in Canada over 100 miles from the nearest paved road ... and there were no roads .... just rocks of the C. shield and some of what I think were snowmobile trails or
    old logging trails.

    I avoid pavement .... touring is on gravel roads or cross country. That is still possible in the American west. (I was hit once by a near blind man while riding pavement. I saw him coming in helmet mirror and went off road ... but he followed my slow moving vehicle sign and threw me 40' ... tucked and rolled. Nebraska County Sheriff refused to ticket him ... saying the driver just did not see me. He saw me well enough to follow me off the road. I later learned he was coming back from drinking at the local country club ... age 89.) Hit was on the rear wheel ... only the rim and front fork were were damaged.
    3) I carry lots of gear and often pull a Pac Dog Wheele Trailer. I have carried
    two weeks of food and four days of water (for a 6'8" man) along with all tools and repair parts. I routinely carry 50 to 60 lbs of groceries home from the store in panniers and on front / rear racks.
    4) Combined bicycle and gear weight on bicycle is easily over 400 lbs on the cycle.
    5) I try to be gentle with my equipment ... but in my prime I often snapped cr-mo bottom
    brackets available at the time --- that was 44 years ago.

    In 2001, when they were new, I put over 3600 miles on the hubs on a 90 day solo and self-contained tour that included October in Canada. I have no idea how many miles are on them now ... but they are as smooth as the day I first used them. No play and a finger spin leaves them spinning for many minutes. The pawls on the cassette have never skipped. The clicking bothered me when I had better hearing.

    Note that I have ridden long days through a blizzard at -20F ... and the pawls functioned
    perfectly. Many, many many subzero days.

    I purchased the hubs from Lickton's in 2000 via mail order ... and had Lickton's lace them with 14 gauge DT spokes to a widest double wall rim I could find at the time. When they came the spokes were unevenly tensioned (I don't mean one left / right tension --- I mean the same side) ... and I spent and entire day slowly correcting the tension until the rims ran true and the spokes had even tension. I also upped the tension a bit. Note that lower quality rims will break under high spoke tensions. Spokes have required very little adjustment over the years to correct true.

    Side notes:
    Front Marzocchi air fork with steel stanchions. Rear Thudbuster suspension seatpost.
    This substantially lowers the stress from impacts. I do have a full suspension bike but
    prefer leave the Phil Woods on a hardtail.

    ==================
    Two negatives of Phil Wood hubs
    1) It will outlive the frame and shifting technology.
    2) Theft. -- which is a big one for me: Theft or damage while
    attempting theft. You cannot lock a hub. Spokes can be clipped in 40 seconds.
    You cannot leave your bicycle and rest easy. You cannot leave it unchained at night
    while camping. I found it necessary to carry a Kryptonite trapezoidal chain locally.
    On tour I never was out of sight of the bike (except when hidden in remote areas.)
    I kept it tied to the tent at night with a small electric motion alarm. I don't really use
    campgrounds. I would guess that one reason I have not lost a cycle while touring is
    that I don't setup camp until dark.

    Theft is everywhere ... when you least expect it. I had a canoe stolen in the dead of night from a river camp that was remote from any road. Canoe was 4' from my tent. Not fun.

    I have caught a bicycle thief stealing someone else's bicycle on a college campus in full view of dozens of people ... and have had my 68.5 cm (27") touring Al. bicycle stolen in the middle of a busy campus. It could not have been normally ridden except by someone my size .... It would have been obvious to any observer that it was being stolen. Bicycle theft is just not prosecuted. It is ignored on by all college campus police. High end wheels attract theft. If you frequently leave a bike at the same location ... they will get your bike. If you put it on your homeowner's policy with an all risk floater ... you will just
    raise your homeowner's insurance rates when it gets stolen.

    A friend in Lincoln Nebraska observed a team working with a truck. They simply lifted
    up an entire rack full of bicycles and slid it all into a truck.

    Perhaps this means more to me than to others ... because I cannot replace a frame without custom ordering it.

    I suppose Phil Wood hubs weigh more than the average hub ... although I am not sure
    how much. I learned one thing in my travels. You don't cover miles if you are not moving. And you are not moving if your equipment fails. My peak touring --- fully loaded --- miles is 189 in one day. I won't be repeating that in this life. I was not fast but I kept moving.

    Phil Wood has provided me relief from worry.

    Rule 1: A bicycle does not move without wheels unless you are going to carry it.
    Get hubs that stand up, and get rims that are not at the far edge of the
    weight range. And use DT spokes (14 gauge 3-cross 36 spoke for me.)
    And learn how to test the tension in a spoke. Pluck them like guitar strings as a
    basic test ... all spokes on one side should have a similar tone. A wheel is
    difficult to repair in the field. Buy Phil Wood. They are non-existent on the
    used market until they are useless because of drive train tech evolution.

  22. #22
    mtbpete
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    The newest White Industries hubs have been quite reliable. They do use the same pawl and spring engagement system than the majority of the hubs on the market use and it has been refined over the years. I'm not particularly supportive of the allen screw needed to hold the end cap in place, but it works with there design. They all have a steel axle, which is very supportive for heavy loads. They use a Titanium freehub body to prevent a shimano cassette from digging into it.

    If you want to try something really interesting and American made, then the Onyx hubs with a silent sprag clutch may interest you.

  23. #23
    turtles make me hot
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    This probably isn't really helpful, I have a Dahon that I commute to the train on. I ruined the front wheel that came with the bike. Since the width on the fork is only 74mm, I was very limited to what hubs were available. I bit the bullet and bought a Phil Wood.
    The axle and bearings in this hub are the bomb. I just did my winter PM on the bike and the front wheel got cleaned and got a fresh tire.
    I originally was not happy dropping 150 bucks on a front hub but it became much easier to swallow after all the trouble free mileage it gives me.
    I like turtles

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