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  1. #1
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Followed all the directions, but here is the issue, unless you have access to a good quality air compressor system, there is no way to get tires to seal. I don't care what he shows in the videos, it just doesn't happen.

    So I have to run tubes until I can get access to a decent air system. Now wondering if I can just get tubes and full them with stans, as opposed to this hugely frustrating endeavor I'm on now.

    Sorry, venting, I know many of you have had great success. Me not so much.

    Bill

  2. #2
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    Do you mean you are having trouble seating the tire into the bead of the rim? What rim and tire combination are you using? If you are using a Stan's Alpha rim all of the cross tires except the Vittoria CX TNT will be loose on the rim and difficult to inflate. Call Stan's and ask for an Alpha cross rim strip, which will help. The same tires should seat with a floor pump on the Iron Cross or other Stan's mtb rims. Some tires are very loose and need a compressor regardless. For sealing air-tight it is very important to watch the tubeless kit video, which shows the steps necessary and how to check for leaks.

  3. #3
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    I've mounted WTB nanos and Ardents with just a floor pump, and Ikons with a compressor.

    If you are having trouble, there are two tricks you can try. Try mounting a tire with a tube first, and then remove just one side of the tire from the rim and remove the tube. That way you are half way there!

    You can also try the rachet strap method--squeeze the tire with the strap, inflate until all or most of the bead is seated, then remove the strap.

    Or consider getting a little compressor. You'd have it for years and probably find other uses for it.

  4. #4
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    First thought- make sure you remove the valve core or you'll never be able to push enough air in there.

    Most often I can set up a new set of tires on Stan's rims with my old junker floor pump. Setting up used tires is more difficult and I recently invested in a Nashbar L'Orange high capacity floor pump that does an excellent job with less furious pumping axxion

    Another option is an electric auto tire air pump. They generally have a Schrader/Presta reversible rubber insert that works. I've had to resort to it once in years of setting up tubeless tires. Inflating used Racing Ralph tires on Bontrager Duster rims wasn't happening with a floor pump.

  5. #5
    dwt
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Welcome to the wonderful world of tubeless. If you are doing anything but UST tires on UST rims, bad language and occasional failures are inevitable.

    Regular tires on ZTR rims CAN be a beeotch to seat, though not always depending on tire. Also, in the famous words of Shiggy, a crap shoot whether they will stay on the rims riding. Check the No- tubes website for tires that won't work.

    My personal choice is TLR, TNT, or TCS tire on ZTR , WTB or UST rim. These tires generally have the reinforced UST bead which will seat and hold onto the rim, but lack beefy UST casing and sidewall. Therefore lighter, but require sealant and susceptible to sidewall cuts. The "650b" or tweener of the tubeless tire world, if you will. Not too risky, not too heavy, but just right.

    Rule of thumb. The harder to mount the tire, the easier to seat using just floor pump. If the tire just pops on the rim and fits loosely, you could be in for frustration getting it to seat. Trade off is easier trail side repair.

    Tricks of the trade. Add extra layer of Stan's or Gorilla tape to rim which will tighten tire rim interface. Once mounted and sealant injected through valve, if it won't seat, squirt a bead of sealant around outside of bead and let dry (24 hours). Idea is to make an airtight seal. When pumping, sponge very soapy suds around rim, which will help prevent air loss and get the sucker to seat. Investing in compressor will save much frustration and arm pain as well.

    Good luck.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by crossracer View Post
    Followed all the directions, but here is the issue, unless you have access to a good quality air compressor system, there is no way to get tires to seal. I don't care what he shows in the videos, it just doesn't happen.

    So I have to run tubes until I can get access to a decent air system. Now wondering if I can just get tubes and full them with stans, as opposed to this hugely frustrating endeavor I'm on now.

    Sorry, venting, I know many of you have had great success. Me not so much.

    Bill
    It is not a "system." Use UST spec tires on UST rims, which is a tubeless system designed to work together. No need for weird techniques and holding your mouth just right.

    Or stick with tubes, which are are part of a designed to work from the start system.
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  7. #7
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    I've used non-UST tires for 8+ years on Stan's and now DT Swiss rims without any problems other than getting some tires to initially inflate. Some tires, such as any Continental RaceSport model, just can't be used effectively tubeless. The weight penalty often is minor enough to go the UST route, I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

  8. #8
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    Do not use a TCS (WTB TCS) tire on a Stan's ZTR 29er rim. Way too tight! It has a UST bead and will work fine on UST rims or others, but not Stan's 29 rim. They will fit on the 26in ZTR rims though. The rest of the tubeless ready tires are great on ZTR 29er rims.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by crossracer View Post
    Followed all the directions, but here is the issue, unless you have access to a good quality air compressor system, there is no way to get tires to seal. I don't care what he shows in the videos, it just doesn't happen.

    So I have to run tubes until I can get access to a decent air system. Now wondering if I can just get tubes and full them with stans, as opposed to this hugely frustrating endeavor I'm on now.

    Sorry, venting, I know many of you have had great success. Me not so much.

    Bill
    I was about to start a thread on whether I would be nuts to inject two ounces of Stan's with a hypodermic into a 29" tube - can't find a Slime Tube in 29" - and just patch the hole in the tube and install. You could also inject a tube and carry it as a spare, to get you home through cactus country without attempting to remove every tiny spine.

    I know, why not just go tubeless. Because I don't really want to have to know that much and don't care about the weight. The only time I worry about rotating mass is when the mass is me rotating OTB.

    As to getting a tire to air up without a compressor, there was an old method for car tires way back when using a rope around the circumference of the tread to push the bead out to the rim. Try tying a piece of cord around it and wind it tight with a stick to hold the bead out. As a bush repair system - if it works - you can't beat the weight of ten feet of cord, which has many uses.

  10. #10
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Thanks everyone . I went and used a large compressor and got it set.
    But I didn't hear the pop, so I tried again no pop. But tire is holding air and I'll ride it tonight and see what happens.

    And I can allways go back to tubes. That's true. Just heard great things about stans and wanted to try it myself.

    They are ust tires, but not ust rims.

    I'll see how things go

    Bill

  11. #11
    dwt
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    Do you mean you are having trouble seating the tire into the bead of the rim? What rim and tire combination are you using? If you are using a Stan's Alpha rim all of the cross tires except the Vittoria CX TNT will be loose on the rim and difficult to inflate. Call Stan's and ask for an Alpha cross rim strip, which will help. The same tires should seat with a floor pump on the Iron Cross or other Stan's mtb rims. Some tires are very loose and need a compressor regardless. For sealing air-tight it is very important to watch the tubeless kit video, which shows the steps necessary and how to check for leaks.
    Just mounted today Hutchinson Secteur 28x700c tubeless on ZTR Alpha's (Version 1) no rim strip, sealant used, floor pumped to 90 psi, Rode 30 miles. No problems, comfy grippy tires, ideal for hard cornering and descending.
    Last edited by dwt; 06-13-2013 at 11:23 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulerias View Post
    I was about to start a thread on whether I would be nuts to inject two ounces of Stan's with a hypodermic into a 29" tube - can't find a Slime Tube in 29" - and just patch the hole in the tube and install.
    Nuts? Not particularly, in this group...a bit odd? Perhaps.

  13. #13
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    If you want sealant in a tube, get one with a removable valve core, and just put it in that way. No patching needed.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Just mounted today Hutchinson Secteur 28x700c tubeless on ZTR Alpha's (Version 1) no rim strip, sealant used, floor pumped to 190 psi, Rode 30 miles. No problems, comfy grippy tires, ideal for hard cornering and descending.
    dwt - I assume you meant 90psi. I just mounted a set of these on some converted kinlin rims (that are way too narrow to appreciate the Secteurs) but I couldn't agree w/ you more. Some of the best tires I have ever ridden. Around 90psi and they were comfy and handled great!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by crossracer View Post
    Thanks everyone . I went and used a large compressor and got it set.
    But I didn't hear the pop, so I tried again no pop. But tire is holding air and I'll ride it tonight and see what happens.

    And I can allways go back to tubes. That's true. Just heard great things about stans and wanted to try it myself.

    They are ust tires, but not ust rims.

    I'll see how things go

    Bill
    Walmart will sell you a decent compressor for like $60 and as others have said, they're useful for all kinds of other stuff besides blowing up tires. Another trick is to use a CO2 for your initial (sealant-free) inflation; that gets the bead set in the the rim and if you do it with the valve core removed it's easy to let the air out, add the sealant then use a hi-flow floor pump to re-inflate. I'm told that sealant doesn't react well to CO2 but that may be BS...

    Hopefully your test rides work out OK, if not then please post your exact tire and rim combo and maybe someone around here can offer a tip. You didn't mention if you were using tape or a rubber rim strip or what...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulerias View Post
    I was about to start a thread on whether I would be nuts to inject two ounces of Stan's with a hypodermic into a 29" tube - can't find a Slime Tube in 29" - and just patch the hole in the tube and install. You could also inject a tube and carry it as a spare, to get you home through cactus country without attempting to remove every tiny spine.

    I know, why not just go tubeless. Because I don't really want to have to know that much and don't care about the weight. The only time I worry about rotating mass is when the mass is me rotating OTB.

    As to getting a tire to air up without a compressor, there was an old method for car tires way back when using a rope around the circumference of the tread to push the bead out to the rim. Try tying a piece of cord around it and wind it tight with a stick to hold the bead out. As a bush repair system - if it works - you can't beat the weight of ten feet of cord, which has many uses.
    If you have a presta valve w/out a removable core, you can take the knob off the needle with plyers. the valve will fall into the tire, but you can then add sealant with a tube. You usually have to find the valve push it back in after you've added sealant.
    All shraders have a removable core.

  17. #17
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Quote Originally Posted by ElwoodT View Post
    If you have a presta valve w/out a removable core, you can take the knob off the needle with plyers. the valve will fall into the tire, but you can then add sealant with a tube. You usually have to find the valve push it back in after you've added sealant.
    All shraders have a removable core.
    Good luck with that!

    I have done it with inner tubes. Do not want to even think about doing it with a mounted tire.
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  18. #18
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    ^^this is in response to a dude ready to inject sealant with a hypodermic needle into a tube.

  19. #19
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Quote Originally Posted by ElwoodT View Post
    ^^this is in response to a dude ready to inject sealant with a hypodermic needle into a tube.
    Then make yourself clear:
    Quote Originally Posted by ElwoodT View Post
    the valve will fall into the tire...
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  20. #20
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Ok, got a ride in and both tires holding air. That part is nice.

    Bad tire choice, that's my fault. Lol lol

    So I'm going to remount old tires back on rim and see how that goes. At least I know rims hold air now.

    But I definetly need to change out the tires.

    Bill

  21. #21
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    For the record, you have to use a big enough needle so the Stan's won't clog the needle; about a 22 ga seems to work. Unfortunately, the Stans won't heal that sort of tear very well, so you have to patch it. But the test pinhole I put in the tube before installing it sealed in a few seconds and held air overnight.

    Unscrewing the valve end seems like a really good option. I'd get a removable valve Presta except I have enough trouble just getting 29 tubes around here let alone removable valve ones. Thanks for that tip, Elwood T.

    Slime road tubes in 700c 23 presta are unavailable around here - ?? - so making your own is the other option.

    The problem around here is cactus and when you get that in the casing, putting another tube in is not going to work unless you spend ages getting every spine out. So carrying a spare tube with slime in it already makes sense to me. Even if you go tubeless, if you need to do a bush repair with a tube on a tubeless setup, having slime in there will deal with existing casing spines and such.

    I'd go tubeless, but I change tires frequently depending upon where I'm riding and tubes make that so quick and mindless.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    Some tires, such as any Continental RaceSport model, just can't be used effectively tubeless.
    Compared to the Supersonics, My Racesports set-up pretty easy...
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  23. #23
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    If you do any kind of tubeless yourself, it is very much worth it to spend 200.00 or so on a compressor. Plus.....it makes your home garage "shop" seem super pro! The other uses are really nice too.

  24. #24
    dwt
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy13 View Post
    dwt - I assume you meant 90psi.
    !
    Heh. Even I'm not fat enough for more than 90. Even if 190 was achievable on my compressor or floor pump, tire would blow off rim and launch into outer space.

    Further hijacking this thread into road territory:

    I would highly recommend these tires to mtb'ers crossing over to road. They sort of feel motorcyclish. Glued to the pavement on corners; soft & vibrationless on descents. Best way to feel mtb'ish on road bike, fat tubeless tires.

    Only drawback maybe for big time climbers: lesser rolling resistance offset by greater weight.

    See Lennard Zinn;

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...rethren_209268

    One final caveat to roadies. These tires are tall. The rear would not fit through my rear brake caliper, a no name Chinese carbon thingie from eBay. I found an old pair of Ultegras in my brake drawer and they fit. Front no problem
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulerias View Post

    Unscrewing the valve end seems like a really good option. I'd get a removable valve Presta except I have enough trouble just getting 29 tubes around here let alone removable valve ones. Thanks for that tip, Elwood T.

    Slime road tubes in 700c 23 presta are unavailable around here - ?? - so making your own is the other option.

    The problem around here is cactus and when you get that in the casing, putting another tube in is not going to work unless you spend ages getting every spine out. So carrying a spare tube with slime in it already makes sense to me. Even if you go tubeless, if you need to do a bush repair with a tube on a tubeless setup, having slime in there will deal with existing casing spines and such.

    I'd go tubeless, but I change tires frequently depending upon where I'm riding and tubes make that so quick and mindless.
    For your 29 tires use a more readily available 26x2.1-2.5 tube. They s-t-r-e-t-c-h easily enough to work. Just inflate a little to get one on the rim. Cheaper, lighter and seem to be less prone to pinch flats.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Rule of thumb. The harder to mount the tire, the easier to seat using just floor pump. If the tire just pops on the rim and fits loosely, you could be in for frustration getting it to seat. Trade off is easier trail side repair.
    your rule of thumb doesn't work for me.

    My Alpha 400 for cross... the tubeless tires fit loose and easily seated with a floor pump

    My Arch EX.... tubeless tires fit tight AND requires me to use a compressor to get the beads to pop out from the channel into the bead. A floor pump does not work in my experience.


    there is probably a reason why in the videos, the MTB applications he uses a compressor and on the Alpha road rims, a floor pump.

  27. #27
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Quote Originally Posted by tednugent View Post
    your rule of thumb doesn't work for me.

    My Alpha 400 for cross... the tubeless tires fit loose and easily seated with a floor pump

    My Arch EX.... tubeless tires fit tight AND requires me to use a compressor to get the beads to pop out from the channel into the bead. A floor pump does not work in my experience.


    there is probably a reason why in the videos, the MTB applications he uses a compressor and on the Alpha road rims, a floor pump.
    Today I mounted 29" RoRo's to Crest rims. They popped right on and I said to myself ruh roh, these are going to be a PIA. Squirted a few oz of home brew through the valve, screwed the stem back un, shook em up, and hooked up to the compressor. Beads locked quickly, losing no air. I had mixed a bucket of suds, expecting I would need them. Nope. Switched to floor pump, pumped up to about 40 psi. and let them sit before mounting. One started losing air slowly. Pumped it back up to 40, and filled the utility sink with water. Dipped the wheel a few inches and rotated. There were a few unsealed spots on the rim blowing bubbles.

    Rather than squirt more sealant inside, I squirted a bead around the rim, both sides, and let sit. After a hour it was holding air. Mounted them. Hung the bike on my digital fish scale. Damn, the new wheels (Crests laced to Hope Pro 2 Evos) are light. With the RoRo's, I knocked a good 1.5 lbs off the Tall Boy.
    Last edited by dwt; 06-13-2013 at 07:51 PM.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulerias View Post
    For the record, you have to use a big enough needle so the Stan's won't clog the needle; about a 22 ga seems to work. Unfortunately, the Stans won't heal that sort of tear very well, so you have to patch it. But the test pinhole I put in the tube before installing it sealed in a few seconds and held air overnight.

    Unscrewing the valve end seems like a really good option. I'd get a removable valve Presta except I have enough trouble just getting 29 tubes around here let alone removable valve ones. Thanks for that tip, Elwood T.

    Slime road tubes in 700c 23 presta are unavailable around here - ?? - so making your own is the other option.

    The problem around here is cactus and when you get that in the casing, putting another tube in is not going to work unless you spend ages getting every spine out. So carrying a spare tube with slime in it already makes sense to me. Even if you go tubeless, if you need to do a bush repair with a tube on a tubeless setup, having slime in there will deal with existing casing spines and such.

    I'd go tubeless, but I change tires frequently depending upon where I'm riding and tubes make that so quick and mindless.
    Q-tubes (Kenda brand distributed by QBP) have removable cores. If you're having trouble finding a shop with them, even the smallest shop could likely order them for you.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wschruba View Post
    Q-tubes (Kenda brand distributed by QBP) have removable cores. If you're having trouble finding a shop with them, even the smallest shop could likely order them for you.
    Actually, I found that the valve nut unscrews pretty easily and you just squirt what you want in the stem and replace the nut. Doesn't work on a Michelin Airstop because the valve guts is captive, but all the Taiwan valves seem to come apart easily. I rather like the Specialized thin tubes, and can get them readily, so this makes them a slime dunk. ;-)

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    It is not a "system." Use UST spec tires on UST rims, which is a tubeless system designed to work together. No need for weird techniques and holding your mouth just right.
    I have to have one eye closed and pump with the gauge towards me or my tires won't seat.
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  31. #31
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Actually got a compressor, and they still don't inflate. So my only choice is to buy a 200.00 compressor to make this work?

    No thanks. It's a crappy system. Sorry I wasted money on it. I'm going to tell people it's a waste. It really is a crappy system.

    Maybe ust rims will make it work but otherwise I'm going to stick with tubes.

    I'm not sure what tires they are using that they say inflate with next to no problems, I'm not seeing this with my expetience.

    Just mad I wasted my money. Definetly not worth the trouble

    Bill

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    Not happy with no tubes system

    mine works with a $100 dewalt compressor.

  33. #33
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    Stans won't work well in a tube. It needs air to dry out and will only make mess in between your tyre and tube. Several people tried that with mostly bad results.

    I'd try out something that is designed to work in tubes, like Slime tubes, or Michelin Protek Max tube.

  34. #34
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Ok thanks. I'll get some slime light tubes.

    I'm glad I tried the stans, still looking to try road tubeless. Just frustrated.

    Thanks everyone

    Bill

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by crossracer View Post
    Actually got a compressor, and they still don't inflate. So my only choice is to buy a 200.00 compressor to make this work?

    No thanks. It's a crappy system. Sorry I wasted money on it. I'm going to tell people it's a waste. It really is a crappy system.

    Maybe ust rims will make it work but otherwise I'm going to stick with tubes.

    I'm not sure what tires they are using that they say inflate with next to no problems, I'm not seeing this with my expetience.

    Just mad I wasted my money. Definetly not worth the trouble

    Bill
    Hey Crossracer..........I hate to see people get fed up and give up on tubeless. I was a non believer and hold-out for a long time. When I finally made the switch, the difference in tire pressure, trail feel, traction, and no more flats was literally ride changing for me.
    Somebody here can help. Don't give up. What set up are you using? What kind of rims? Tape or split tube ghetto? What kind of tires?
    If you live in the NorCal Bay Area, PM me! Don't give up! it really is worth it in the long run.

  36. #36
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Thanks. Too much problems. It's not really a good system for me.

    One I don't run low tire pressure. I tend to run 35-45 psi .

    I think I should save my money and get a set of tubeless rims. Trying this was interesting, but I'm not sold on it.

    What sold me was the videos of the guy pumping up tires no problem. Even on the video he says most tires only need a pump. Well I tried three different tires on two rims and the only way they worked was for me to go to a place that had a huge compressor and get it pumped up. Just impractical.

    Anyway I appreciate the help. Sorry to be cranky. I'll put this stuff up and maybe try another time. For right now I'm gonna have to say it didn't work well.

    Bill

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by crossracer View Post
    Thanks. Too much problems. It's not really a good system for me.

    One I don't run low tire pressure. I tend to run 35-45 psi .

    I think I should save my money and get a set of tubeless rims. Trying this was interesting, but I'm not sold on it.

    What sold me was the videos of the guy pumping up tires no problem. Even on the video he says most tires only need a pump. Well I tried three different tires on two rims and the only way they worked was for me to go to a place that had a huge compressor and get it pumped up. Just impractical.

    Anyway I appreciate the help. Sorry to be cranky. I'll put this stuff up and maybe try another time. For right now I'm gonna have to say it didn't work well.

    Bill
    For what it's worth, I encountered all those problems too. Then I put tubes in my Stan's wheels and all the problems disappeared.

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    I've never used a compressor to mount my tubeless MTB tires. Everything has seated with just a floor pump.

    On my 29er the recipe is as follows:

    - Stan's Crest rims w. one round of Stan's tape.
    - Schwalbe Nobby Nic 2.35 EVO TLR SS
    - Mount tire with tube.
    - Break bead on one side, remove tube and install valve.
    - Lubricate the tire and rim with soapy solution.
    - Lay wheel on the side of the unmounted bead, inflate.
    - Remove valve core and inject sealant.

    If the seal between the tire and rim is poor and the bead snapped on at a low pressure, I use another round of tape to build up the BSD.

    After initially sorting out what kind of setup you need, mounting the tire becomes much more easy. I did sweat and curse when converting my fat bike to tubeless, but even with that thing the research (trial and error) was fruitful and it's not a hassle anymore. Tubeless rolls and feels better than tubes even at higher pressures - it's not just about the ability to go low.

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    Please tell me how a tubeless tire rolls better than a tube tire....

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    Re: Not happy with no tubes system

    I've run specialized and schwalbe tires with stans on my specialized roval wheels. I found the easiest way to inflate is with co2 cartridges initially. My compressor had a hard time inflating fast enough. I've had zero issues on the trail, and definitely like the handling and feel with lower pressures (running around 25 psi) and I'm 200 lbs kitted out.

    Sent from my MB865 using Tapatalk 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by medeist View Post
    Please tell me how a tubeless tire rolls better than a tube tire....
    I cannot give a scientific answer, but I'm sure someone else can. You need to ride a familiar trail tubed and then tubeless to see. What I "think" is happening is that a tubed tires tube adds some structure and rigidity to the tire as a whole. When you eliminate that extra layer of rigid structure, the tire is able to conform to the contours of the trail much more easily. Less deflection, more traction, and a smoother ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medeist View Post
    Please tell me how a tubeless tire rolls better than a tube tire....
    lower pressure means the tire can conform to the ground better for greater traction.

    the limit with tubes is the threshold for pinch flats.

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    There is some evidence that u get tire tube friction when running tubed vs tubeless plus the shape of the tube vs the tire is not entirely the same when dynamic movement. Small but noticeable.

    Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

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    Quote Originally Posted by Millfox View Post
    Stans won't work well in a tube. It needs air to dry out and will only make mess in between your tyre and tube. Several people tried that with mostly bad results.

    I'd try out something that is designed to work in tubes, like Slime tubes, or Michelin Protek Max tube.
    The back of the bottle says " The sealant also works in all tubes with removable valve cores."

    I intentionally put a hole in a tube with Stans in it and mounted it; it hissed for a few seconds and then stopped. It's held 30 psi for a few days now. Certainly, if you get a lot of punctures, the inside of the tire will likely get wet and messy, but I'll take that over walking home.

    Trying to get the stuff to flow through a hypodermic illustrates how it will clog holes immediately without having to dry out. The little balls of latex amalgamate when pressed together even when wet. Sure, having the outside dry will aid the process and probably work with bigger holes, but I just want it to seal a goat head or cactus spine.

    You may well be right, but I'll take Stan at his word and at least try it for a while. I'm going tubeless on the MTB as soon as I get done with relaceing a wheel so this is mainly a road bike thing for goat heads. But by the look of it I'd rather have some sort of slime in my emergency tube than just a dry tube.

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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Quote Originally Posted by tednugent View Post
    lower pressure means the tire can conform to the ground better for greater traction.

    the limit with tubes is the threshold for pinch flats.
    Not happy with no tubes system-imageuploadedbytapatalk1371345185.174503.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by tednugent View Post
    lower pressure means the tire can conform to the ground better for greater traction.

    the limit with tubes is the threshold for pinch flats.
    I run lower pressures with tubes than tubeless. My limit with either is usually tire squirm, not pinch flats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I run lower pressures with tubes than tubeless. My limit with either is usually tire squirm, not pinch flats.
    For once, yours is totally a minority opinion (other than very wide an heavy tubed tires) Tednugent's is the prevailing, and IME, correct POV. The main selling point for tubeless has always been lower pressure and less pinch flats than tubes. Indeed, I run "crapshoot" ghetto tubeless 2.25's in the rocks on my 650b with much greater confidence than on tubes.

    I suppose there must be actual objective evidence one way or the other somewhere online. Maybe someone can find it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tednugent View Post
    lower pressure means the tire can conform to the ground better for greater traction.

    the limit with tubes is the threshold for pinch flats.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I run lower pressures with tubes than tubeless. My limit with either is usually tire squirm, not pinch flats.
    So if I am using tubes at a pressure just above tire squirm and am not getting any flats why would I go tubeless? Is a stans rim strip and sealant really that much lighter than a tube?

    I almost placed this in a new thread but it seemed to fit in this conversation. sorry for the semi ot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon_oma#692 View Post
    So if I am using tubes at a pressure just above tire squirm and am not getting any flats why would I go tubeless? Is a stans rim strip and sealant really that much lighter than a tube?

    I almost placed this in a new thread but it seemed to fit in this conversation. sorry for the semi ot.
    No reason at all to go tubeless.

    Weight difference between tubes and a "converted" DIY setup is minimal, and the DIY is fussier to fit and maintain--if it works at all.

    I use tubes most of the time and only run tubeless if I am using tubeless tires on tubeless rims. Notice little difference in performance in any regard. The casing, tread and rubber compounds make much more difference and I do notice those changes.

    "Tubeless" is not the cure-all many riders claim it to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post

    "Tubeless" is not the cure-all many riders claim it to be.
    Indeed. There ARE no cure alls. Not tubeless or tubed tires, not 29" or 27.5" wheels, not clipless or flat pedals, not dropper or no dropper post, etc. There are preferences riders develop over time and there are adherents of all camps, not to mention bazillions of threads all over MTBR taking sides on any choice you can think of. Read the posts, experiment, ride, come to your own conclusion.

    I have time on my hands, I love to wrench bicycles, I mix my version of MTBR homebrew sealant, I build wheels, I have 4 mtn bikes and a road bike. All are run tubeless at lower pressures than they were formerly run with tubes, none are full UST systems. Yes, I have had many frustrating and epithet filled sessions seating some of my tires to some of my rims, which I totally admit is a disadvantage, but I have never pinch flatted or burped a tubeless tire. The term "squirm" does not resonate.

    What makes the tubeless systems preferable, despite mounting hassles, are low pressures with virtually zero threat of pinch flats at any speed in any terrain, and not having to change a popped tube ( excepting sidewall cut; always carry spare tube and boot for that. Could happen to tubeless or tubed ture). Sealant takes care of most punctures; worst case is a loss of pressure before sealant sets, so you need to stop and pump. No removal of wheel from bike, no removal of tire from rim. MUCH faster and easier than tubes. Much appreciated when riding road and caught in cold rain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Indeed. There ARE no cure alls. Not tubeless or tubed tires, not 29" or 27.5" wheels, not clipless or flat pedals, not dropper or no dropper post, etc. There are preferences riders develop over time and there are adherents of all camps, not to mention bazillions of threads all over MTBR taking sides on any choice you can think of. Read the posts, experiment, ride, come to your own conclusion.

    I have time on my hands, I love to wrench bicycles, I mix my version of MTBR homebrew sealant, I build wheels, I have 4 mtn bikes and a road bike. All are run tubeless at lower pressures than they were formerly run with tubes, none are full UST systems. Yes, I have had many frustrating and epithet filled sessions seating some of my tires to some of my rims, which I totally admit is a disadvantage, but I have never pinch flatted or burped a tubeless tire. The term "squirm" does not resonate.

    What makes the tubeless systems preferable, despite mounting hassles, are low pressures with virtually zero threat of pinch flats at any speed in any terrain, and not having to change a popped tube ( excepting sidewall cut; always carry spare tube and boot for that. Could happen to tubeless or tubed ture). Sealant takes care of most punctures; worst case is a loss of pressure before sealant sets, so you need to stop and pump. No removal of wheel from bike, no removal of tire from rim. MUCH faster and easier than tubes. Much appreciated when riding road and caught in cold rain.
    Never felt a tire squirm? OK. Either your riding style is extremely smooth or extremely aggressive, the latter being why pinch flats are the limiting factor.

    I rarely get a flat of any type, even on trail/terrain where others shred tires (and I am not a slow rider) or even fill a tire with thorns.

    The flats I do experience usually are the type that would have happened tubeless or not. Not having sealant in a tire makes those MUCH easier and cleaner to fix on the trail.

    Seen way too many cases where DIY "tubeless" tires just spew sealant without stopping anything, then need to be booted and have a tube installed.

    If it works for you, fine.

    IME (and many others') there is no advantage at all, and many downsides.

    And way, way, WAY too many people that just toss out "Go tubeless!" as the solution for any tire issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I run lower pressures with tubes than tubeless. My limit with either is usually tire squirm, not pinch flats.
    tire squirm as in too much sidewall deflection going into turns for hardpack?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tednugent View Post
    tire squirm as in too much sidewall deflection going into turns for hardpack?
    Too much lateral flex in any condition. Does not have to be hardpack or a turn. Off camber, ruts, rough surfaces in a straight line, pedaling hard up a steep climb...
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    Shiggy wrote........ "IME (and many others') there in no advantage at all, and many downsides."

    You being a Tire and wheel Guru, Moderator, and all around superstar aside........

    This is a ridiculous statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocop View Post
    Shiggy wrote........ "IME (and many others') there is no advantage at all, and many downsides."

    You being a Tire and wheel Guru, Moderator, and all around superstar aside........

    This is a ridiculous statement.
    Nope. Not ridiculous at all.

    You may not agree, but that is EXACTLY MY experience. I have not found anyplace/anytime where I thought a tubeless setup would have performed better than the equivalent tubed setup. I have had times where I was running tubeless and wished I had been using tubes.

    If you consider DIY "tubeless" I stand by that X10.
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Nope. Not ridiculous at all.

    You may not agree, but that is EXACTLY MY experience. I have not found anyplace/anytime where I thought a tubeless setup would have performed better than the equivalent tubed setup. I have had times where I was running tubeless and wished I had been using tubes.

    If you consider DIY "tubeless" I stand by that X10.
    I suppose I can agree with you on the "ghetto" systems....... Split tubes, building up tape to mimic bead hooks etc.....Seen a good deal of failures/difficulty setting up with those methods.
    I thoroughly enjoy and reap what I believe to be real benefits with Stans Rims and tubeless ready tires though. Tight fit issues with some tires, not withstanding.

    As long as people are riding, and having fun it shouldn't matter. I just hate seeing members get so frustrated that they give up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    For once, yours is totally a minority opinion (other than very wide an heavy tubed tires) Tednugent's is the prevailing, and IME, correct POV. The main selling point for tubeless has always been lower pressure and less pinch flats than tubes. Indeed, I run "crapshoot" ghetto tubeless 2.25's in the rocks on my 650b with much greater confidence than on tubes.

    I suppose there must be actual objective evidence one way or the other somewhere online. Maybe someone can find it.
    Not an uncommon opinion. Go read the tire pressure sticky. Plenty of others there that are squirm-limited rather than pinch. Lower pressure is not useful when it is less than what the tire needs to perform well. The pressure sweetspot varies from tire to tire, and also rim width. I do not use the same pressure with every tire it can vary from 16-32psi for my mtb tires. Even changes with the bike I am riding.

    You must have confidence in your equipment, no matter what.
    There is a huge difference in having confidence in something and it actually being better or not working for somebody else.

    I have supreme confidence in inner tubes. They work. For me. Even with narrow, lightweight tires. I also have confidence in my riding skills (the secret is to not slam the pointy bits).

    And because of my personal experience with DIY "tubeless" I have near ZERO trust in it. Even if it seems OK in the shop, I dread the thought of an on-trail repair.

    I do trust UST-spec tubeless. I have used the same TLR tires on TLR rims with and without tubes with no noticeable difference, other than needing 2-3 higher psi tubeless.

    Why do I keep responding to these threads? To balance out the "tubeless" zealots. Using tubes is still viable and still the most common setup.

    Using a standard tire and/or rim without inner tubes does not make it tubeless any more than riding a road bike on trails makes it a mountain bike. Both can be done, but you had better know what you are doing, know the risks, and accept the consequences if it goes wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocop View Post
    I suppose I can agree with you on the "ghetto" systems....... Split tubes, building up tape to mimic bead hooks etc.....Seen a good deal of failures/difficulty setting up with those methods.
    I thoroughly enjoy and reap what I believe to be real benefits with Stans Rims and tubeless ready tires though. Tight fit issues with some tires, not withstanding.

    As long as people are riding, and having fun it shouldn't matter. I just hate seeing members get so frustrated that they give up.
    Tubeless ready tires are not intended to be used on Notubes rims (few tires other than their own are either!). Read their disclaimer: http://www.notubes.com/Warranty.aspx
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    Quote Originally Posted by medeist View Post
    Please tell me how a tubeless tire rolls better than a tube tire....
    Between the same tire with and without tubes, the answer is quite simple: less material to deflect, less friction. If you don't need a tube, it's better to not have one. Even at the same pressure.

    If the tires compared are different, it's trickier and there's no one answer. With various kinds of tubeless tires (UST, TLR etc.) and tires designed to be run with tubes only, the difference can become rather small, non-existent or inverted. There are lots of different tires that can be run tubeless and a similar selection of quality can be found in the tubes department as well. A good tire + tube will of course roll better than a poor tubeless tire.

    Scientific studies could tell us exactly what kind of differences we're talking about. It's entirely possible that the difference is too small to notice and I'd fail a blind test. Here's why I don't care: following procedure with the right components has delivered hassle-free tubeless setups that aired up with a floor pump and never let me down on the trail. So none of the downsides have struck me so far. When riding the bike after dumping the tubes my subjective feeling is that I'm faster with the same effort. It doesn't matter if it's only a small amount of physical effect and placebo for the most part - I ride to enjoy my time on the bike and I enjoy running tubeless more than tubes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Tubeless ready tires are not intended to be used on Notubes rims (few tires other than their own are either!). Read their disclaimer: Warranty
    My God man. You seem like the zealot to me. Thank you for advising me that the system I use with great success is not working.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocop View Post
    Thank you for advising me that the system I use with great success is not working.
    If I recall, there was a lot of drama involved in order to get your setup "working".

    Geax on Stans......OMG!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    If I recall, there was a lot of drama involved in order to get your setup "working".

    Geax on Stans......OMG!!!
    I stand by the original post. First time was difficult for me, but I didn't give up. That being the point of my post to the OP. Obviously once you do things a few times you get better. Some tires are very difficult to mount on Stans. I agree. Not impossible however, and well worth the effort.
    Why are you taking this so personally? You mad Bro?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocop View Post
    My God man. You seem like the zealot to me. Thank you for advising me that the system I use with great success is not working.
    Actually, he IS, as posted above "a Tire and wheel Guru, Moderator, and all around superstar". Look at the rep and rep power.

    I suspect he burped a Stan's conversion years ago, crashed, got bruised and maybe trashed some good equipment. That could be a tipping point for anyone, including and especially a guy seemingly with access to an unlimited supply of wheels and tires to ride, evaluate, study and report on.

    If it makes you feel better, I currently run ZTR Crest 29'er rims with RoRo TLR's. Mounted and seated with ease, no issues and I'm alive and kicking. 190 lbs rider; 30 psi. Worse, from Shiggy's POV, I run Hutchinson Intensive tires tubeless on first generation ZTR Alpha rims on the road; 85 psi. You want to talk about confidence? Ride road tubeless @ 50+ mph. One great positive of tubeless road tires is the lack of vibration that generally occurs when you get over 50 mph. When it comes to matters of the road, I put my trust in Lennard Zinn, who also recommends tubeless.

    Final anecdote. My wife and I were riding on the road in the rain at Lake Placid 2 weeks ago. My rear tire punctured from some glass, metal or other smutz from the highway that stuck to it in the rain and then poked through. A tube would have popped as well. There are few cycling experiences less appealing than changing a tire in cold rain in the Adirondacks. As soon as I heard the hiss, I stopped to check out the tire which was spewing a stream of latex sealant. My wife said "now what, will you have to tube up?" "Never fear, my dear, it will clog up and seal, but I have in my saddle bag a bunch of single use tubes of superglue which will hasten the process." Dab that in and around the puncture and you have a sealed tire. Did NOT have C02 which would have been very handy. So I huffed and puffed with my hand pump and probably put all of 50 psi in the tire. But it held up for 25 miles. Next time; C02
    If I were running tubes, the 30 sec. Superglue cure wouldn't have been an option. It would have been Wheel off the bike , tire off the rim, boot the hole, new tube inserted, tire back on wheel, tire pumped, wheel back on bike. Way more than 30 sec. C'c'c'cold rain, unhappy, impatient wife. Potential ruined holiday.

    So, I am a tubeless zealot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocop View Post
    I stand by the original post. First time was difficult for me, but I didn't give up. That being the point of my post to the OP. Obviously once you do things a few times you get better. Some tires are very difficult to mount on Stans. I agree. Not impossible however, and well worth the effort.
    Why are you taking this so personally? You mad Bro?
    There is nothing for me to take personally, or to get mad about. If anything, you should be mad at me for gloating at your misfortune. "I told you so".

    If you don't want people new to tubeless to get frustrated, then you should give them advice that leads to the least amount of drama. The options are:

    1) UST / TLR tires on UST / TLR rims. No compressor and no shenanigans. (Stan's does not count, as you saw for yourself)
    2) Run tubes.

    Even dwt, the "tubeless zealot" admits that anything outside of these two choices leads to drama.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crossracer View Post
    Maybe ust rims will make it work but otherwise I'm going to stick with tubes.
    UST (or TLR) rims are required to make it work, otherwise there are aspects of it that are unsafe.

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    Here in the desert southwest, with cactus thorns and goatheads everywhere, tubeless rules. I don't know anyone who runs tubes.

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    It must just depend on the rim/tire combo. I tried my first tubeless install a few months ago and it was a joy. Using Stan's Crest rims and Schwalbe NN snakeskin a, I got the bead to seat with about 10 pumps from an 8 year old cheapie floor pump. I didn't remove the valve core or use soap.

    I used one strip of tape, placed the tire on by hand (no levers), and after a few pumps, it seated.

    I'd go so far as to say the whole thing was easier than any of Stan's videos. I haven't had a problem since mounting them.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post




    1) UST / TLR tires on UST / TLR rims. No compressor and no shenanigans. (Stan's does not count, as you saw for yourself)
    2) Run tubes.

    Even dwt, the "tubeless zealot" admits that anything outside of these two choices leads to drama.
    Actually, no. Any tire system, including tubes, can involve drama. I have had to use sealant and compressor (once) to seat a UST tire on a Mavic UST rim. I have had major drama getting Pacenti Neo Moto 650b (neither UST or TLR) tires to seat on Velocity Blunt and WTB Laserdisc trail rims. No rimstrip just tape and sealant. Once seated, solid. But not for the faint of heart.

    When was a newb running tubes, before I learned about tire boots, I was a pathetic victim of "sidewall cut flat, change tube, ride for 5 minutes, flat again, patch tube, change again, ride another 5 minutes, flat, walk back to car" That was many moons ago and was melodrama.

    The point being, that for a newb any tire system has a learning curve, advantages, disadvantages and drama.

    I can run any combo out there, and choose now to run TLR tires tubeless on any damn rim, with tape and sealant only. Pretty much have it down by now
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Too much lateral flex in any condition. Does not have to be hardpack or a turn. Off camber, ruts, rough surfaces in a straight line, pedaling hard up a steep climb...
    That's pretty much the whole point of running lower pressures.

    In my experience, I find the low pressures help with traction better, pedaling hard up a steep technical climb... even with "lower rolling resistance" shorter knob tires....

    in cyclocross... running the super low pressures is one of the benefits of tubular (and tubeless is gaining traction), to get the tire to conform better to ground.

    yes... if I was riding pavement... pressures would be higher to a certain point.

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    Shiggy is right. Low pressure is pointless, you just end up with that weird squirmy feel. Maybe if you're just putting along at 2mph or weigh 93lb it'd be ok...

    Sealant would be useful if in a thorny area, but I get about 1.5 flats/year on 4 bikes. Just no reason to bother.
    whatever...

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I can run any combo out there, and choose now to run TLR tires tubeless on any damn rim, with tape and sealant only. Pretty much have it down by now
    That's super. For you. It appears, though, that the OP has the same type of setup and has failed miserably.

    Even if somebody were to get this combo to work, I would still advise against it because it will fail the c-clamp test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    ....... I would still advise against it because it will fail the c-clamp test.
    c-clamp test?

  73. #73
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    I was able to get some standard Crossmarks to seat on XT UST wheels with just a floor pump. I was a huge hassle, and not really worth the trouble. It is so much easier with a compressor. The gas station 1km down the road from me has one, so that is what I used most recently.

    In the future, I may pick up a little 2 gallon compressor. They sell used for $30 - $60 on the local classifieds.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  74. #74
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    Get the right tools for the job. Harbor Freight compressors are crappy and inexpensive, but will do the job.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon_oma#692 View Post
    c-clamp test?
    It's a method to test whether you can push an inflated tire bead off of the rim. Just google it and you will find copious videos of Shiggy doing all sorts of things with tires.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    That's super. For you. It appears, though, that the OP has the same type of setup and has failed miserably.

    Even if somebody were to get this combo to work, I would still advise against it because it will fail the c-clamp test.
    C'mon. Get real. There are tons of people that get this combo to work. It is not hard as compared to ghetto split tube or any method mounting tires designed to be used with tubes tubeless.

    Agreed, Shiggy has proved it does not pass the c-clamp test, so like all non UST systems, whether it will work or fail is a crap shoot. Then again I have never hit a c-clamp on the trail and never burped a tubeless tire. I have, however pinch flatted tubed tires on and off the road numerous times, hate that, and hate changing tubes.

    I don't advise anybody to do anything they are not comfortable with or take any risk. But I know what bets I will be placing. YMMV.
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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    Some tires, such as any Continental RaceSport model, just can't be used effectively tubeless.
    That's weird, considering RaceSport was their initial tubeless ready model, at least for one model year... or maybe a 1/2 a model year.
    Continental branding and labeling sucks... bad.
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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    It is not a "system." Use UST spec tires on UST rims, which is a tubeless system designed to work together. No need for weird techniques and holding your mouth just right.

    Or stick with tubes, which are are part of a designed to work from the start system.
    Even "systems" don't work sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcadbiker View Post
    Here in the desert southwest, with cactus thorns and goatheads everywhere, tubeless rules. I don't know anyone who runs tubes.

    I've spent most of my adult life living and riding in the desert southwest and regular tubes have always worked fine for me. I don't often get punctures or pinch flat and I agree with Shiggy's statement that tire squirm is the limiting factor as far as how low of pressure you can use.

    Reading this thread makes me appreciate how simple tubed tires are!

  80. #80
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    I would like to add that the truth about the c-clamp test is that even tire/rim combos that pass this can still burp because as the previous poster said "I have never hit a c-clamp on the trail". I have seen many tires burp that pass the c-clamp test because most of the awkward hits on the trail push the tire on one side only, and once the bead of the tire is pushed into the middle of the rim it will loose air. With the c-clamp test, especially on narrow rims you are actually pushing the beads together and not created enough room for air to escape.

    I think tubes are great for commuting or when using heavier tires or riding alone where you have full visibility of rocks or potholes and have time to pick your line. They're also great to have handy on an epic ride if you cut your sidewall (boot needed too). Aside from that I've gotten too many pinch flats, and tube flats in general to go back to tubes.

    There is a learning curve and sometimes trial and error for tubeless. The correct equipment helps a lot. Unfortunately with UST and tubeless ready rims and all different kinds of tires not a lot of people know what the correct rim/tire combination is, so it's not worth it for everybody.

  81. #81
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Tubeless ready tires are not intended to be used on Notubes rims (few tires other than their own are either!). Read their disclaimer: http://www.notubes.com/Warranty.aspx
    I don't see that in their disclaimer

    maybe you're reading the disclaimer wrong

  82. #82
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    I run a non-UST tubeless setup (Flow Ex / HD 2.35s) and I’m very happy with it. I do think I was a bit oversold on it though. Here are my observations:

    Flat protection – That is the main reason I run tubeless. I’ve eliminated the flats from thorns that I used to get every 4th or 5th ride.

    Ride / handling / surface conformity – running the same pressure for tubed vs. tubeless, I really can’t tell the difference. I thought I could when I first went tubeless, but then when I switched back and forth it felt the same. And I am pretty picky about the way my bike rides and handles.

    Ability to run lower pressures without getting pinch flats – I personally don’t see any huge benefit here. If you are running pressure low enough to get a pinch flat, your tire pressure is too low IMO. Even tubeless, at that pressure you are flirting with damaging the tire or rim.

    Internal tire / tube friction – I have no way to know, but I would think there is a tiny advantage there.

    Maintenance – with tubeless there is a little bit of air loss between rides, and the sealant has to be replenished as often as once per month in the Texas summer. But then again with tubes I sometimes got slow leaks from thorns. My current wheel/tire combo is cake to set up, but I do use a compressor.

    Safety – In my opinion, a tubed tire is much less likely to blow off the rim or lose pressure immediately. I blew a Racing Ralph off the rim (both sides!) on a ghetto setup. Came down hard and boom – tire was instantly off the rim. It had burped several times, which should have been a warning to me that it wasn’t safe. Fortunately, I wasn’t going fast at the time, and the tire didn’t get caught in the fork.

  83. #83
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Quote Originally Posted by tednugent View Post
    I don't see that in their disclaimer

    maybe you're reading the disclaimer wrong
    " The system allows the use of standard, tube-type tires, to be used in a tubeless manner. It should be noted that doing so exceeds the tire manufacturer’s original design intent and may void the tires warranty. Also, some tube and tubeless tires were not designed to be used with sealant and doing so may void the tire's warranty. Visit the list of recommended tires in our Help Center for an updated list of recommended tires. NoTubes.com is not responsible for any damage to the tires and/or any injury or liability resulting from the use of a tire beyond the original design intent."

    In other words, "We are telling you to use tires in a way they were never designed to be be used. If it does not work, it is not our fault. Use at your own risk."
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    " The system allows the use of standard, tube-type tires, to be used in a tubeless manner. It should be noted that doing so exceeds the tire manufacturer’s original design intent and may void the tires warranty. Also, some tube and tubeless tires were not designed to be used with sealant and doing so may void the tire's warranty. Visit the list of recommended tires in our Help Center for an updated list of recommended tires. NoTubes.com is not responsible for any damage to the tires and/or any injury or liability resulting from the use of a tire beyond the original design intent."

    In other words, "We are telling you to use tires in a way they were never designed to be be used. If it does not work, it is not our fault. Use at your own risk."
    Where in that does it state:

    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Tubeless ready tires are not intended to be used on Notubes rims (few tires other than their own are either!). Read their disclaimer: Warranty

  85. #85
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Quote Originally Posted by tednugent View Post
    Where in that does it state:
    And where does it say the Notubes method is for using TR/tubeless tires without inner tubes?
    "The system allows the use of standard, tube-type tires, to be used in a tubeless manner."
    I say "method" because it can not be a complete "system" with tires that are not designed to be part of it. They tell you one thing in the recommended tires section then take no responsibility if it fails in the disclaimer.

    Using the rimstrips in third party rims adds yet another layer of uncertainty. Way too many variables for all tire/rim combos to be viable without tubes.

    You need to check with the TIRE manufacture for the rim spec. Most of them will say their tubeless tires are intended for tubelesss use only on UST-spec rims.

    This part covers all tires standard or tubeless:
    "NoTubes.com is not responsible for any damage to the tires and/or any injury or liability resulting from the use of a tire beyond the original design intent."

    The only tires I know of that are designed specifically to be used without inner tubes on Notubes rims are Notubes' own and Kenda SCT versions, though Panaracer does endorse theirs on Notubes rims.

    Bottom line: use what you trust, but know the risks.
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  86. #86
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    Happy with No Tubes!

    As a complete NOOB, I was attracted to the benefits of a no tubes method, i.e., less flats and lighter weight. The learning curve has been little steep and there is certainly more routine maintenance involved. So it is not for those who wouldn't want to invest the necessary time in the research and the garage, and maybe an air compressor. I do like this aspect of cycling, however, and am looking to convert my road bike to tubeless , as well. I am running Racing Ralphs on the stock Giant rims on my Anthem X 29er using Stan's rim strips and sealant.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    And where does it say the Notubes method is for using TR/tubeless tires without inner tubes?
    "The system allows the use of standard, tube-type tires, to be used in a tubeless manner."
    I say "method" because it can not be a complete "system" with tires that are not designed to be part of it. They tell you one thing in the recommended tires section then take no responsibility if it fails in the disclaimer.

    Using the rimstrips in third party rims adds yet another layer of uncertainty. Way too many variables for all tire/rim combos to be viable without tubes.

    You need to check with the TIRE manufacture for the rim spec. Most of them will say their tubeless tires are intended for tubelesss use only on UST-spec rims.

    This part covers all tires standard or tubeless:
    "NoTubes.com is not responsible for any damage to the tires and/or any injury or liability resulting from the use of a tire beyond the original design intent."

    The only tires I know of that are designed specifically to be used without inner tubes on Notubes rims are Notubes' own and Kenda SCT versions, though Panaracer does endorse theirs on Notubes rims.

    Bottom line: use what you trust, but know the risks.
    It does not say anything about tubeless ready tires are the same as standard tubed-type tires.

    Tubeless ready tires, are designed to be mounted tubeless, whether it's a UST or regular bead with the extra layer of butyl rubber... so when you mount them tubeless, you are not exceeding the original design intent.

    Nor, does it say, that you must use the Notubes brand tires. There is no Notubes certification for tubeless ready tires.

    My Spec Captain 2Bliss are tubeless ready tires, designed to be run without tubes.

    Too further emphasize my point:

    Recommended Tires

    Compatible Tubeless Tires:

    Most Tubeless tires are compatible:
    UST, LUST, UST-lite, 2Bliss, Tubeless Ready, TNT (tube no tube)

    Compatible Non Tubeless* tires:

    29er Tires: All

    26inch Tires:
    Nokian
    Continental
    Kenda
    Specialized
    Bontrager
    Geax
    Maxxis
    and most other brands

    Not Recommend Tires

    WTB TCS and UST 29 inch tires are too tight for Stan's Notubes rims and NoTubes licensed rims such as Sun Ringle Black Flag.

    Specialized Grid UST Tires are very tight on Stan's Rims.

    Hutchinson Air-Light tires – the bead is too weak for tubeless use resulting in tire blowing off the rim at low inflation pressures.

    Hutchinson Tubeless Cyclocross tires – carbon fiber tire bead requires excessive pressure to seat properly often leading to tire blowing off the rim.

    *Use of sealant in non-tubeless tires may void the tires manufacturer’s warranty.

  88. #88
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    List of non tubeless tires compatible with notubes: Recommended Tires

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by tednugent View Post
    It does not say anything about tubeless ready tires are the same as standard tubed-type tires.
    That's right. Their disclaimer says to run tubefull tires on Stan's rims.* It does not say to run tubeless tires on Stan's rims.

    Tubeless ready tires, are designed to be mounted tubeless, whether it's a UST or regular bead with the extra layer of butyl rubber... so when you mount them tubeless, you are not exceeding the original design intent.
    That's not fully correct. Tubeless tires are designed to be run without a tube only on a rim that has the same profile and diameter as Mavic's UST standard. Which Stan's rims don't match. They are also not designed to be run tubelessly on a regular, tubefull rim.

    *Unless I am parsing it wrong and tubeless tires are considered a subset of "tube-type" tires.

  90. #90
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    That's not fully correct. Tubeless tires are designed to be run without a tube only on a rim that has the same profile and diameter as Mavic's UST standard. Which Stan's rims don't match. They are also not designed to be run tubelessly on a regular, tubefull rim.

    *Unless I am parsing it wrong and tubeless tires are considered a subset of "tube-type" tires.
    This is not fully or at least universally true either. First, Kenda tubeless ready tires are not designed with UST beads, second it appears that other manufacturers may be moving away from "UST standard" beads, and third I know of no or not many descriptions of tubeless ready tires that specify the rim compatibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    That's not fully correct. Tubeless tires are designed to be run without a tube only on a rim that has the same profile and diameter as Mavic's UST standard. Which Stan's rims don't match. They are also not designed to be run tubelessly on a regular, tubefull rim.

    *Unless I am parsing it wrong and tubeless tires are considered a subset of "tube-type" tires.
    That's not correct. Yes, Mavic did set out to make a "Universal Standard for Tubeless", hence called UST. Use of UST rim profile will get the most out of UST beaded tires.

    UST rims have a hump or "ridge" the locks in the bead.



    For full benefit.... UST rimbed/bead + UST bead tires ... note... UST.

    However, Stan's BST, Bead Socket Technology, locks the bead differently, by reducing the height of the bead hook. Ghetto tubeless tricks mimick this, by reducing the bead hook height via tube or rimstrip. There is no ridge to lock the bead. But tubeless ready tires have the extra layer of butyl rubber around the bead, to get a better seal.

    So... UST is not The only standard for tubeless rims and tires.

  92. #92
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    Not happy with no tubes system

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    That's right. Their disclaimer says to run tubefull tires on Stan's rims.* It does not say to run tubeless tires on Stan's rims.
    This statement is at the same time, confusing, false ,and misleading.

    The website quote about standard tires is:
    The system allows the use of standard, tube-type tires, to be used in a tubeless manner.

    Meanwhile, as Tednugent cited, the site also specifically states:

    Most tubeless tires are compatible:
    UST, LUST, UST-lite, 2Bliss, Tubeless Ready, TNT (tube no tube)
    Therefore, contrary to what you and Shiggy are arguing, TLR tires generally are compatible with ZTR. Also, to run any tire tubeless on a ZTR rim, tape, sealant & valve required; rimstrip NOT required.

    Hordes of readers of this forum successfully run TLR tires tubeless on ZTR rims. Does that "prove" they are foolproof and safe? No. Is ZTR + TLR = UST? No. But inductive reasoning suggests that if it works for me, tednugent, meltingfeather, and many others yesterday and today, it will work for you tomorrow

    To be responsible and caution people to be careful with non UST tubeless methods or systems is one thing. To be waving red flags and making false and/or misleading statements is another and solves nothing
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    I just got my Arch EX wheels in today and used a floor pump to get my Race King's beads seated...it was really easy. The challenge now is getting it to hold air well. I have the regular folding Race Kings so I would imagine they would be better than racesport or supersonic versions. At one point I heard and found a pinhole leak in the sidewall and held the wheel so the sealant could get to it. After that I couldn't hear anything from either of the tires...

    This is the first time I've ever been tubeless so I am still learning. While installing the Race Kings it looked like they had a pretty good bead to seal up with though..

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