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  1. #1
    Unfit Norwegian
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    High flange disc hubs

    I'm a little put off by a couple of wheelsets I've built with lightweight 29" rims and XT 785 hubs, They really doesn't get stiff enough laterally. Now, I could use thicker spokes or fewer spoke crossings, but I've preached enough around here about why I don't want to use too thick spokes, and as these are disc brake wheels, I really want to use 3X as often as possible.

    That's why I'm looking for high flange disc hubs. I can use Hope, King and many others with spoke hole BCD's at around 54-58mm, and the STX quality Shimano M529's are OK, but a little low end for a, well, bike snob, so:

    I'm looking for tips about disc hubs at about Hope-quality with larger spoke hole BCD's than 58mm. At least on the rear drive side and on the front disc side. Any suggestions?

  2. #2
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    Well, E13 do hubs with a 73/73 flange front and a 77/77 flange rear. I nearly bought a set last month, but ended up getting Kings because, well, Kings damnit!

    Quality on them seems nice, 60point ratchet, switchable axles and oil based lubrication (like Hadleys).

  3. #3
    Unfit Norwegian
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    Thanks. I've seen those, and they might be a little overkill. The flanges are excellent, but they might be a little on the heavy side, and I don't really know anything about the quality of those hubs. Any experience?

  4. #4
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    Hadley flanges are 59-62mm
    American Classic flanges are 66mm. they also have a fairly uniquely low NDS offset in the rear. more balanced spoke tension, lower bracing angle (as I'm sure you know).

    both come at a higher price point than Hopes, though.
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  5. #5
    Unfit Norwegian
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    Good tip. I've had some bad experience with American Classic before, but the bearings and freehub mechanism might be better now?

    Thanks!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Hadley flanges are 59-62mm
    American Classic flanges are 66mm. they also have a fairly uniquely low NDS offset in the rear. more balanced spoke tension, lower bracing angle (as I'm sure you know).

    both come at a higher price point than Hopes, though.
    I've managed to get a set of LaserDisc Lite hubs new for under $150 with a little looking around. They are pretty much the same as the AC right down to the freehub body with steel face feature.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    I'm a little put off by a couple of wheelsets I've built with lightweight 29" rims and XT 785 hubs, They really doesn't get stiff enough laterally. Now, I could use thicker spokes or fewer spoke crossings, but I've preached enough around here about why I don't want to use too thick spokes, and as these are disc brake wheels, I really want to use 3X as often as possible.

    That's why I'm looking for high flange disc hubs. I can use Hope, King and many others with spoke hole BCD's at around 54-58mm, and the STX quality Shimano M529's are OK, but a little low end for a, well, bike snob, so:

    I'm looking for tips about disc hubs at about Hope-quality with larger spoke hole BCD's than 58mm. At least on the rear drive side and on the front disc side. Any suggestions?
    Flange diameter make little difference to lateral stiffness unless the wheel is laced radially.

    Flange spacing does. As mentioned, less dish balances the tension better, but I would rather have the greater spoke bracing angles.

    But given the narrow range of flange spacing on 135mm hubs, you will gain more from changing rims and/or spokes than the hub. And more spokes is stiffer than less.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    but they might be a little on the heavy side, and I don't really know anything about the quality of those hubs. Any experience?
    Not owning them, I've had them in my hand, pulled them apart, but ended up buying Kings because the price was similar and Kings will roll forever (building 26er wheels so spoke length not an issue here).

    The E13s are nice though, weight is a couple of grams lighter than a King 20mm front/Iso rear. The ratchet design is quite nice, it uses thee pawls that engage two teeth each at a time so it should be pretty solid. Like I said uses oil so maybe higher maintenance than grease based hubs like Hopes/King, but the seals look pretty solid. Bikeradar had a glowing review on the TRS 29er wheels a little while back.

  9. #9
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    My high(er) flange 135mm 26er mtb wheel is much more noodly than my low flange 130mm road wheel in 700c. Same spokes too. Everything about the larger 700c should be more flexy, but its got a stiff rim on it, and the 26er doesnt. I dont think you'll find stiffness with a new hub.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Flange diameter make little difference to lateral stiffness unless the wheel is laced radially.

    Flange spacing does. As mentioned, less dish balances the tension better, but I would rather have the greater spoke bracing angles.

    But given the narrow range of flange spacing on 135mm hubs, you will gain more from changing rims and/or spokes than the hub. And more spokes is stiffer than less.

    A larger flange and corresponding shorter spokes will give the spokes a flatter angle, just the same way that moving the smaller flange further out will.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    A larger flange and corresponding shorter spokes will give the spokes a flatter angle, just the same way that moving the smaller flange further out will.
    For a 3X laced wheel, this will be marginal at best, as the spoke length changes only marginally, but rather moves further off center of the hub.

    There are good reasons for a high flange hub, but this ain't one of them


    Magura

  12. #12
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    A floppy wheel is what you get when you run big 29" clown wheels with the same flange spacing as 26" wheels.

    Given the things you have excluded, your other options are to get a stiffer axle option (thru axle), wider rim and narrower tire (less sidewall flex), or run higher spoke tension to give the psycho-acoustic effect of a stiffer wheel

  13. #13
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    Road spacing is even narrower, and theres some stiff road wheels out there. It really has a lot to do with rim selection.

  14. #14
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    Have you looked at Chub hubs by The Hive? High end carbon fiber shells bonded to giant flanges. SC was spec'ing the front hubs on their top end XTR builds last year. Rock solid on my 26 inch XCc with no flex whatsoever. I imagine the stiffness would really shine on a 29 inch.

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendbear View Post
    Have you looked at Chub hubs by The Hive? High end carbon fiber shells bonded to giant flanges. SC was spec'ing the front hubs on their top end XTR builds last year. Rock solid on my 26 inch XCc with no flex whatsoever. I imagine the stiffness would really shine on a 29 inch.

    chub thru | the Hive
    Those are identical to the E13 mentioned earlier.

    Still nice hubs though.



    Magura

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Those are identical to the E13 mentioned earlier.

    Still nice hubs though.



    Magura
    Oops. Missed that. No problems with my front in 18 months of hard use. Wheel is still as true as day one too. Nice!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    A larger flange and corresponding shorter spokes will give the spokes a flatter angle, just the same way that moving the smaller flange further out will.
    Not with semi-tangential lacing. The spoke hole moves "sideways" as the flange diameter increases. Moves very little closer to the rim spoke hole.

    Front DT 240 CL hub, 3X
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    Flange diameter increased by ~20mm, 3X
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    3mm shorter spokes than low flange 3X

    Front DT 240 CL hub, radial
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    15/13mm shorter spokes than low flange 3X

    Flange diameter increased by ~20mm, radial
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    10/12mm shorter spokes than low flange radial
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Road spacing is even narrower, and theres some stiff road wheels out there. It really has a lot to do with rim selection.
    Yes. Not all rims are equal, by a long shot.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    For a 3X laced wheel, this will be marginal at best, as the spoke length changes only marginally, but rather moves further off center of the hub.

    There are good reasons for a high flange hub, but this ain't one of them


    Magura
    The problem isn't too flexible spokes thet stretch too easy. The wheels are only a little "soft" when applying lateral force from the rear NDS towards the DS. (and opposite in the front, of course).

    This is because the shorter spokes on the side where the flange to center distance is smallest have an almost vertical angle, but on the other side, the lateral spoke angle is smaller. (As I'm sure you all know.)

    This angle can be decreased by either moving the flanges further out OR using larger diameter flanges. In my mind, that has to make the wheel laterally stiffer, and I only exprerience this to the extent that I feel it's a small problem on hubs with low flanges, like Shimano.

    I don't know exactly how much stiffer the wheel will get with higher flanges, since I haven't built an otherwise identical wheel with them (yet), and so far, I've only noticed the "problem" while stress relieving the spokes during the buiding process, so it might not be a problem at all when riding. Time will tell.

    The wheels I'm currently talking about are 29"MTB wheels that I'll be using on a disc brake cx bike, btw. Hence the lack of hub spacing options. (And most 142mm hubs are just convertible 135mm hubs as well, so they really wouldn't help in this regard.)

    Of course stiffer rims would help, and wide hubs too, but that's not an option this time.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    The problem isn't too flexible spokes thet stretch too easy. The wheels are only a little "soft" when applying lateral force from the rear NDS towards the DS. (and opposite in the front, of course).

    This is because the shorter spokes on the side where the flange to center distance is smallest have an almost vertical angle, but on the other side, the lateral spoke angle is smaller. (As I'm sure you all know.)

    This angle can be decreased by either moving the flanges further out OR using larger diameter flanges. In my mind, that has to make the wheel laterally stiffer, and I only exprerience this to the extent that I feel it's a small problem on hubs with low flanges, like Shimano.

    I don't know exactly how much stiffer the wheel will get with higher flanges, since I haven't built an otherwise identical wheel with them (yet), and so far, I've only noticed the "problem" while stress relieving the spokes during the buiding process, so it might not be a problem at all when riding. Time will tell.

    The wheels I'm currently talking about are 29"MTB wheels that I'll be using on a disc brake cx bike, btw. Hence the lack of hub spacing options. (And most 142mm hubs are just convertible 135mm hubs as well, so they really wouldn't help in this regard.)

    Of course stiffer rims would help, and wide hubs too, but that's not an option this time.
    Not quite so

    The Lateral angle hardly changes with the flange diameter, on a 3X laced wheel.
    The only case where you change the lateral angle by increasing the flange diameter, is radial laced wheels.
    Think about it. If the spoke length does not change much, so can't the lateral angle, when using 3X.


    Magura

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post

    This angle can be decreased by either moving the flanges further out OR using larger diameter flanges.
    This angle you are referring to is called the "bracing angle", (angle of spoke relative to plane of wheel) and increasing the flange diameter doesn't increase it (on a 3x wheel), as everybody has been telling you. The only stiffness you are increasing is the torque stiffness.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Not quite so

    The Lateral angle hardly changes with the flange diameter, on a 3X laced wheel.
    The only case where you change the lateral angle by increasing the flange diameter, is radial laced wheels.
    Think about it. If the spoke length does not change much, so can't the lateral angle, when using 3X.


    Magura
    OK. I see. It was just a little counter-intuitive to me.

    Thanks

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    This angle you are referring to is called the "bracing angle", (angle of spoke relative to plane of wheel)
    Ah. Thanks for that!

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    and increasing the flange diameter doesn't increase it (on a 3x wheel), as everybody has been telling you. The only stiffness you are increasing is the torque stiffness.
    Sounds logical, but a little unexpected. I'll just have to make do with these wheels as they are for now (XT 785, Supercomp, Crest 29), then.

    Thanks, everybody.

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