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  1. #151
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    Have not read entire thread but have been lusting for a brass internal for sometime because of the quick galvanic corrosion that happens between carbon fiber and aluminum. Of the last few ENVE builds I did on the SES series they are now shipping with and inverted(traditional style) brass nipple. These are not the same as the DT hidden nipples by any means and they do not have a screw driver slot. The folks at ENVE confirmed that you CAN use these new nipples on their older hoops. I just spoke with them yesterday and confirmed that moving forward all hoops will be shipping with the new inverted brass nipps.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    Well, eventual fatigue failure is guaranteed on Aluminum alloy spoke. On steel, it can be avoided; same spokes can be reused over many wheels, if certain use conditions are met. There are no conditions to meet with an Aluminum spoke, except never riding the wheel.

    And I also think (not sure though, a material scientist is welcome to shed some light here) that fatigue crack propagation, once initiated from a stress riser, is also faster in Aluminum alloys than in a good steel spoke. And it's easier to mechanically create a stress riser in Aluminum than it is in steel (like when chain is overshifted into spokes).
    Completely with you here. I have never seen an I9 wheel that was not a problem. People bring them in because of busted spokes and out of round fairly frequently. Busting out an EZ Out to remove the threaded portion of the spoke which is broken off in the hub is not part of my wheel building tools nor should it be.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onetrack View Post
    Simple....Mr. Mayor....ENVE uses a hidden nipple system(inside the rim) Moisture gets in and never the nips just corrode if not maintained. External nipples last much much longer
    That makes no sense.
    On other rims...part of the nipple are internal. Moisture gets to them...just like every other nipple. There is no difference.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    Completely with you here. I have never seen an I9 wheel that was not a problem. People bring them in because of busted spokes and out of round fairly frequently. Busting out an EZ Out to remove the threaded portion of the spoke which is broken off in the hub is not part of my wheel building tools nor should it be.
    Do you bust out an EZ Out because you don't have a .05 allen key or is there another reason?

  5. #155
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by paradigm shifter View Post
    Do you bust out an EZ Out because you don't have a .05 allen key or is there another reason?
    Likely either seizing or rounding out of the tiny allen key socket in the soft aluminum while trying to turn the large threads... or both.
    Its actually not all that unusual, since I9 spokes seem to break more than even S.Comps.
    But you know that already, of course.
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    But you know that already, of course.
    Nope.

    I never had any issues with my I9s during 5 years of use/abuse.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradigm shifter View Post
    Nope.

    I never had any issues with my I9s during 5 years of use/abuse.
    Yup, I have 2 sets of I9 that are over 5 years or use in all sorts of weather conditions - I still have all 8 spare spokes that they came with sitting unused!

    Still sitting on the fence about using a carbon rim with the I9 Al spokes though.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    That makes no sense.
    On other rims...part of the nipple are internal. Moisture gets to them...just like every other nipple. There is no difference.
    Sorry Bud....Our shop has sold hundreds of wheels with internal nipples. (Reynolds road and ENVE) Salty enviroment and moistue does contribute to this galvic corrosion....and yes we do see the backs of standard nipples corrode too. Only brass last.

  9. #159
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    The nipples ENVE were using were from a brand called "pillar", they are non anodized nipples. I was/am testing a new brass nipple that i havent weighed but looks to be as light as the alu ones and i can tell you has absolutely no issues now.

    Go forth and buy the best wheels available... let them know if you ride in a dry climate and they will give you the option, actually they will probably ask now as they are on top of the game, identified a small issue and want to stay there.
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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onetrack View Post
    Sorry Bud....Our shop has sold hundreds of wheels with internal nipples. (Reynolds road and ENVE) Salty enviroment and moistue does contribute to this galvic corrosion....and yes we do see the backs of standard nipples corrode too. Only brass last.
    With that thinking...ALL alloy rims would fail along with the alloy nipples.
    OR....did Enve use cheesy nipples in their wheels?
    I don't hear of failures from folks who had other wheel builders build them.
    When I think of quality nipples....Pillar isn't the first name that comes to mind.

  11. #161
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    Damn!

  12. #162
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    OR....did Enve use cheesy nipples in their wheels?
    I don't hear of failures from folks who had other wheel builders build them.
    When I think of quality nipples....Pillar isn't the first name that comes to mind.
    ENVE screwed the pooch and went with an unproven nipple.

    IMHO.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post
    ENVE screwed the pooch and went with an unproven nipple.

    IMHO.
    Pffft...that's just your opinion.
    What do you want for $3000?
    Do you expect them to use nipples that cost 50 cents a piece???
    BTW....I am being sarcastic.

  14. #164
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    But, I don't blame ENVE. I believe it was DT Swiss that started the business practice of using an inferior nipple and by the time ENVE joined the game it was considered BAU.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    Completely with you here. I have never seen an I9 wheel that was not a problem. People bring them in because of busted spokes and out of round fairly frequently. Busting out an EZ Out to remove the threaded portion of the spoke which is broken off in the hub is not part of my wheel building tools nor should it be.
    either you sharpen a flat screwdriver and hammer it in gently to get purchase on the broken/flat side, Or, you bang in a slightly larger torx bit in the ruined hex hole, thats how its done. i.mo. i like 1/2 inch torx stuff for this since they are quite durable when banging them in into broken hex screws. if you get good torxbits they can easily replace the eze outs too doing the exact same stuff, without breaking
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  16. #166
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    A good practice I have learned over the years is to use a tool for its intended purpose. I have also used torx for applications like this. With a wheel that is completely built and only needs one replacement it has proven easier to work with the size of an ez out. The .5 allen is no match for the the diameter of threads and thread locker used in the build.

    Enve used the same nipple Reynolds used... they are a spin off. Engineers decided to say F' this we can do better on our own. Weight weenies want less rotational weight and demand Alu, long term gains from serviceability stand point brass always wins.

    Shipping extra 8 spokes with a wheel is a sign to me that there is a design flaw.
    When I buy a car I do not expect for it to come with a spare transmission. If it did I would look at a mfg that had their act together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    Shipping extra 8 spokes with a wheel is a sign to me that there is a design flaw.
    psssst...8 spokes/2 wheelsets = 4 spokes per wheelset. 2 per wheel. Pretty standard. I always get a few extra spokes for those potential big-stick-through-wheel events when I'm road tripping.

    Using your "logic" there's some kind of design flaw in my CX Ray/ENVE build because I ordered some emergency back up spokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    When I buy a car I do not expect for it to come with a spare transmission. If it did I would look at a mfg that had their act together.
    Intelligent folks understand that your analogy is ridiculous.

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    With that thinking...ALL alloy rims would fail along with the alloy nipples.
    OR....did Enve use cheesy nipples in their wheels?
    Correct and also correct.

    If you build an alloy rim with an unanodised alloy nipple, they will corrode and the nipple will fail. You'll get nice white lumps of alu oxide where your nipples used to be.

    ENVE used unanodised nipples, chemistry happend and they failed, pretty basic case of bad design.

    Almost all alloy nipples are anodised to avoid corrosion, so are rims (or they're powder coated) but even then it will still happen because anodising wears down or cracks over time/use. Alloy nipples in wheels need replacing a lot more than Brass ones.
    Last edited by Fix the Spade; 06-08-2013 at 04:46 PM.

  19. #169
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    With that thinking...ALL alloy rims would fail along with the alloy nipples.
    Galvanic corrosion occurs between dissimilar metals. It helps to have a little understanding of the basics.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  20. #170
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    Correct and also correct.

    If you build an alloy rim with an unanodised alloy nipple, they will corrode and the nipple will fail. You'll get nice white lumps of alu oxide where your rim used to be.
    You do know that galvanic corrosion happens between dissimilar metals, right?

    Nothing like a bunch of people who don't understand the basics of corrosion fighting on the Internet about corrosion.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    You do know that galvanic corrosion happens between dissimilar metals, right?
    I never mention galvanisation anywhere in that post. Alu rim/alu nipple is oxidisation from moisture, it still happens.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    You do know that galvanic corrosion happens between dissimilar metals, right?

    And the point that hasn't been made is that aluminum nipples became popular because brass nipples and aluminum rims didn't jive well and customers hated seeing the aluminum eyelets on their rim turn to dust. The rim was failing due to a cheap, brass nipple.

    So...

    The aluminum nipple saved the day (the rim) and increased the life of the rim but required increased maintenance and or nipple replacement.

    But...

    The carbon rim came along and no one was smart enough (except my wheel builder and others) to figure out that rim life and overall wheel stability was increased by brass nipples.

    So...

    the benefits of aluminum nipples with carbon rims are merely cosmetic if you want non black or silver nipples.

    And...

    If you mention weight as a benefit I bet some math dude will quantify the weight savings as .03 seconds over a 10km uphill time trial.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Galvanic corrosion occurs between dissimilar metals. It helps to have a little understanding of the basics.
    I have a very good understanding of the basics.
    And basically....out of the millions of carbon wheels out there with alloy nipples....a certain company is having problems with the wheels they build.

    Maybe I should go peel a tubie off a 20 year old Zipp that I use for cross. Wheel
    has actually been in the ocean a few times. I bet the alloys nipples are just fine.

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    Shipping extra 8 spokes with a wheel is a sign to me that there is a design flaw.
    When I buy a car I do not expect for it to come with a spare transmission. If it did I would look at a mfg that had their act together.
    Obviously doesnt get it.

    I9 ships 4 spare spokes with each wheelset. This is nice of them, as their spokes typically cost $4-$5 each.

    So If you have a problem and get a derailleur that runs amuk and takes out a spoke or two, you have them readily available, instead of having to order up replacements - because lets face it there is not a chance in hell your local bike shop is going to have your replacement custom colour spoke available in the length that you need.

    And yes, I have had a stick get into a "traditional" spoke before, and it bent it. Much easier to replace those at your LBS.

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post
    The carbon rim came along and no one was smart enough (except my wheel builder and others) to figure out that rim life and overall wheel stability was increased by brass nipples.
    I would say this is the exception rather than the rule. There are hundreds of thousands (probably) of carbon rims with aluminum nipples around that do not exhibit the corrosion experienced by a few... even over the long term.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  26. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    I never mention galvanisation anywhere in that post. Alu rim/alu nipple is oxidisation from moisture, it still happens.
    The corrosion you now claim to have been talking about has nothing to do with the couple (alu/alu), so why would you have mentioned that... twice now?
    Just to intentionally confuse the issues... in a thread about galvanic corrosion? You even suggested that the anodized, rather than non-anodized part would corrode.
    I ain't buyin' it, but maybe someone else will.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  27. #177
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    Thinking the sky is going to fall on you every time you ride your bike has nothing to do with intelligence it is paranoia. Triple A is peace of mind as is ordering extra spokes. Sending them as a value add is a completely different message. In ten years building experience I can count on one had how many people I have had come back because of a broken spoke. One. CX racer foot through the front wheel. All of my customers are repeat customers because nothing goes wrong. The beauty of a wheel with traditional J-bend spokes is they are nothing unusual and every one has something that will get you through what ever crisis you are in. Gauge really doesnt matter as long as you can pull that hoop straight and under stand that tension reflects differently depending on the wire material and thickness.

    A well built wheel is starts at the component spec. Yes I have built plenty of touring wheels where the user requests extra spokes... back to the peace of mind point. In that decade I have heard feedback once that a rider broke a spoke and it was not any one on a tour.

  28. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    Thinking the sky is going to fall on you every time you ride your bike has nothing to do with intelligence it is paranoia.
    Who has posted anything like that?

    I think that you would see more broken spokes if your clients weren't in MN and if they preferred primitive, technical trails. Sh|t happens more frequently when folks ride more challenging trails.

    Regardless, your claim that I9 ships 8 spokes with a wheel (and that your fabrication is evidence of your imagined "design flaw") was, and continues to be, preposterous. Although it's still funny.

  29. #179
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    I have clients in four other countries. I am not a hack and don't see my product come back.

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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    I have clients in four other countries. I am not a hack and don't see my product come back.
    I have to agree with you about breaking spokes. They just don't happen all that often, at least not with stainless spokes. Now I was riding with a guy with some I9 wheels the other day and he said he has broken 5 in the past year which may explain why they ship with extras. KNow before anyone go and tells me that he probably rides harder than me let's just say that's not the case.

  31. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    The corrosion you now claim to have been talking about has nothing to do with the couple (alu/alu), so why would you have mentioned that... twice now?
    Just to intentionally confuse the issues... in a thread about galvanic corrosion? You even suggested that the anodized, rather than non-anodized part would corrode.
    I ain't buyin' it, but maybe someone else will.
    You know, you could have pointed out that I wrote rim where I meant nipple, that was very brainless of me.

    The dude was being flippant and saying that all alu nipples must fail because Enve's did, ignoring that Enve's were raw alloy. I replied that if they weren't anodised they totally would.

    So what if it's not acting as an anode but instead being attacked by whatever is dissolved in the things you're riding through (unless you only ever ride through puddles of pure distilled water?), you still end up with corrosion.

    You don't have to buy it either, it's free.

  32. #182
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    I had I9 wheels. Even with the rebuild with brass nipples, my ENVEs have been the most reliable wheels I have ever had. The I9s were very nice, but if a rock or a stick came in contact with the spokes and left a scratch, I knew there may be a potential failure. If the I9 spoke did fall, it was a challenge to make it back to the trail head before the wheel became so out of true it was unrideable.

  33. #183
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    Alu corrodes quite fast actually. This can be tested by putting some tap water in alu cookingware and voila, about a week later you start to see pitting. I had lots of alu cookingware before (and teflon crap) but now I only use stainless steel or cast iron, cast iron kicks ass. I just don't think eating alu is very healthy, nor teflon for that matter.
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    You know, you could have pointed out that I wrote rim where I meant nipple, that was very brainless of me.
    Ah well, it happens. I didn't know what you meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    The dude was being flippant and saying that all alu nipples must fail because Enve's did, ignoring that Enve's were raw alloy. I replied that if they weren't anodised they totally would.
    You're right.
    Great word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    So what if it's not acting as an anode but instead being attacked by whatever is dissolved in the things you're riding through (unless you only ever ride through puddles of pure distilled water?), you still end up with corrosion.
    That is definitely possible, in which case the carbon has nothing to do with it. It would not be the first or last time that an issue was misdiagnosed by mtbr armchair scientists (ozzy's thread on his ENVE issue).

    Pure distilled water is corrosive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    You don't have to buy it either, it's free.
    What a deal!
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  35. #185
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    As someone who bought Enve AM 29 wheels October last year .... F**K.

    Looks like I'm going to need to order more Enve branded gorilla tape just to inspect my wheels. Not to mention the nightmare of mounting Racing Ralphs again ... noooooooo!
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  36. #186
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    My wheels started making a noise as if something was stuck inside the nipple chamber (under the tubeless tape in the void where the nipples are), turns out there was.... but not the dirt or whatever I though it was. The shards of alu had picked up some of the glue on sticky side of the gorilla tape and turned themselves into little alu sticky balls. These can be heard when turning your wheel slowly.
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  37. #187
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    Just found this thread today. I bought Enve's last Fall and made it less than (6) months before I had (2) of the exact same nipple issues/failures. When I took the wheel to get serviced, teh tech said 1/2 my nipples were heading in the same direction. He re-built the wheel with brass nipples and all my issues have gone away.

    FWIW and this is not an opinion shared by many on the board but my Easton Haven's have been teh best wheelset I've ever owned. I did have a hub issue but Easton replaced the entire wheel for free so I can't complain. That being said, I wish I could build their wheels with CK or DT 240's.

  38. #188
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    Enve now uses brass nipples, or at least P321 are on their Enve sets.

  39. #189
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    Exactly the same thing happen to me last week! Did you rebuild your wheels with different nipples?

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    My wheels started making a noise as if something was stuck inside the nipple chamber (under the tubeless tape in the void where the nipples are), turns out there was.... but not the dirt or whatever I though it was. The shards of alu had picked up some of the glue on sticky side of the gorilla tape and turned themselves into little alu sticky balls. These can be heard when turning your wheel slowly.

  40. #190
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    I've ordered 3 different rims from Enve direct in the last month, all three showed up with brass nipples. Seems they have settled on this being the appropriate solution and have dealt with it. I would be surprised if they didn't offer to rebuild any factory built wheels with corrosion issues. In my market it's been rare, but apparently not uncommon elsewhere.

  41. #191
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    And now the 64 cent question; why buy ultra light rims when you have to use the heaviest nipples available? The nipples are at the periphery so if weight really matters its most damaging there.
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    Anyone know a source for titanium nipples?

  43. #193
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    FYI, DT silver alloy nipples aren't anodized. At least they doesn't seem to as they cost $0.10 each while color anodized ones are $0.30 each. And that's what I've been told too.
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  44. #194
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    And now the 64 cent question; why buy ultra light rims when you have to use the heaviest nipples available? The nipples are at the periphery so if weight really matters its most damaging there.
    Most people aren't buying ENVE rims for weight alone, which dovetails in with the next point: ENVE rims aren't really "ultralight."
    Also, bringing up an armchair physics argument is one thing. Do you have any idea of the actual (quantitativ) effect of using brass vs alloy nipples?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  45. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by TANK01 View Post
    Anyone know a source for titanium nipples?
    I believe Pillar makes some but I've never seen them first hand. Fairwheel bikes would be the place to call about them in the US though.

  46. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Most people aren't buying ENVE rims for weight alone, which dovetails in with the next point: ENVE rims aren't really "ultralight."
    Also, bringing up an armchair physics argument is one thing. Do you have any idea of the actual (quantitativ) effect of using brass vs alloy nipples?
    Yeah kinda, as close to nothing as possible.

    But hey I aint the one buying rims for lightness. My last rim purchase was dt ex500 and 400. Bought an ex600 and another 500 for the winter. For my commuter.. And the hubs are true precision, thats about 700g in hubs alone. I don't really care what **** weighs, I just buy what I deem the best suited.
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  47. #197
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    And now the 64 cent question; why buy ultra light rims when you have to use the heaviest nipples available? The nipples are at the periphery so if weight really matters its most damaging there.
    Because the weight difference is bugger all and brass nipples are stronger and more reliable?

    Fifty grams per wheelset or a rebuild every six months...

  48. #198
    Maromero
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    Is there any trouble with other brands besides Enve, say DT, Reynolds or .....

  49. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by doccoraje View Post
    Is there any trouble with other brands besides Enve, say DT, Reynolds or .....
    The issue isn't with the rim, it's with the internal Al nipples. Why they aren't anodized, I haven't the foggiest...

    Most other carbon rims on the market are designed to utilize traditional nipples.
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  50. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    And now the 64 cent question; why buy ultra light rims when you have to use the heaviest nipples available? The nipples are at the periphery so if weight really matters its most damaging there.
    The "special" lightweight ENVE brass internal nipples are not like regular brass DT's, I would say they are approx the same weight or very close to regular alloy nipples, will take a picture of them and post it up later.
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