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  1. #101
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    +1 on nipples not creating a watertight seal against the rim.

  2. #102
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    The face where the nipple touches the rim was the only part not corroded, its also got up to 120kgf holding it in position.

    When I inflated my new setup the pressure of the air on the new tubeless tape pushes it down and the air hissed out through the valve stem so if theres antwhere moisture is getting in it will be the valve stem even with the ' O' ring in place.
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  3. #103
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Condensation occurs when going from warm to cold. The can coming from the fridge generates condensation when the warm air contacts the cold can and the moisture condenses out of the air; the can "emits" nothing. So it would be going from his ride into his house that might generate moisture on the bike and parts.

    lol
    There were two subjects referenced: cold can and hot day. The moisture emits (like the moon emits light) from the combination of the cold can and hot day.

    I have seen a layer of condensation on my bike when bringing it from the cold garage to the basement to wrench.
    I have seen the same layer after doing night laps at 24 hour races and bringing into the condo for rest.

  4. #104
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    Those nipples look corroded through and through, turning into powder. What kind of corrosion is that again?

  5. #105
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    What kind/brand of brass nipples can be used to replace the alloy ones?

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Those nipples look corroded through and through, turning into powder. What kind of corrosion is that again?
    Fuc%ed corrosion, you have just bought 2-3K worth of wheels, any corrosion is not good .... but i can now say, you get what you pay for. ENVE have acknowledged the issue and are dealing with it 100%, they have done really well by me and have sorted my issue.

    They are a relitively new company with arguably the best carbon wheels on the market, they have encountered a stumbling block in dry climate/stans/gorilla/galvanic corrosion, no one could have predicted it but they are working through it very professionally.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Fuc%ed corrosion, you have just bought 2-3K worth of wheels, any corrosion is not good .... but i can now say, you get what you pay for. ENVE have acknowledged the issue and are dealing with it 100%, they have done really well by me and have sorted my issue.

    They are a relitively new company with arguably the best carbon wheels on the market, they have encountered a stumbling block in dry climate/stans/gorilla/galvanic corrosion, no one could have predicted it but they are working through it very professionally.
    Certainly like the sound of a 100% solution. And this thread has been good at putting out info to find a fix. What are components of the solution they have come up with for you.

  8. #108
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    For reference, what did you wash your bike with?

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    What are components of the solution they have come up with for you.
    Lets say my corrosion issue was pretty bad and they have got me to test out a new nipple, cant say too much more as ive signed a confidentiality agreement.

    Only sharing some info as i started this thread, im super happy with enve's input and can say again..... you get what you pay for.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    For reference, what did you wash your bike with?
    Water only, its an occasional hose down.... not even every ride, bikes stay pretty clean here.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    The face where the nipple touches the rim was the only part not corroded, its also got up to 120kgf holding it in position.

    When I inflated my new setup the pressure of the air on the new tubeless tape pushes it down and the air hissed out through the valve stem so if theres antwhere moisture is getting in it will be the valve stem even with the ' O' ring in place.
    Could the corrosion on nipple faces be ground off against rim to bare metal when you unwound the nipples?

    But the valve stem hissing is a strong argument for nipple sealing actually happening on Enve rims (I haven't run mine tubeless, never noticed the hiss).

  12. #112
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    Hopefully a solution will soon be available. In ordering a wheelset I would not want the Pillar alloy nipples used if they even are anymore.

  13. #113
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    I live inland desert conditions. Wonder if I should do anything with my wheels, even though they've been running for years. I took a look inside and I don't see anything out of the ordinary.

    I just figured Enve knew what they were doing and that corrosion shouldn't be a prob. I have first gen rims. If I saw that, I'd be pretty upset too. I thought corrosion was something that coastal and northern climate (salted roads) and maybe heavy sweaters would be more of a problem for. You saying you live in a dry desert like climate and using only water for washing. Time to look up galvanic corrosion to see if it needs some sort of catalyst, like an electrolyte (salt).

  14. #114
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    Varaxis, since your rims are that old, they may have been built with nipples from a batch that Pillar actually took care to anodize..

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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    It should also be pointed out that galvanic corrosion does not only occur in water. Galvanic cells can form in any electrolyte, including moist air or soil, and chemical environments.

    .
    From the Internet.

  16. #116
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    Two loose spokes led to discovering significant corrosion. ENVE has their own brass nipples in stock. Unfortunately, my LBS broke many spokes during disassembly and the wheels were built by them, so I'm out of a bike to ride for a couple of weeks, and cost Aerolite spokes plus new nipples plus the cost of rebuild. My first gen ENVEs were fine, but I used a split tube or tubes. But....I had to pay to respoke my SS wheels with Alpine IIIs, so there yah go.

  17. #117
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    Wow, talk about timing..... I was wondering if there was any corrosion issues between aluminium nips/carbon wheels and was gonna search this today and just came across this!

    I am planning on putting a set of carbon rims using Industry 9 hubs/spokes that I have but am now a bit concerned with the aluminium spokes having issues - I suppose as long as the anodizing on the spoke is intact I shouldnt have an issue......

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Wow, talk about timing..... I was wondering if there was any corrosion issues between aluminium nips/carbon wheels and was gonna search this today and just came across this!

    I am planning on putting a set of carbon rims using Industry 9 hubs/spokes that I have but am now a bit concerned with the aluminium spokes having issues - I suppose as long as the anodizing on the spoke is intact I shouldnt have an issue......
    save the hassle and use brass nipples. peace of mind is worth the weight gain which is marginal

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    save the hassle and use brass nipples. peace of mind is worth the weight gain which is marginal
    Good idea, except Industry 9 spokes dont use nipples.

  20. #120
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    Ano is not the problem. All Enves nipples are ano. It's the static charge causing the problem.
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29or6to4 View Post
    Ano is not the problem. All Enves nipples are ano. It's the static charge causing the problem.
    My bad, I thought that having a hard anodized nipple it would be ok. So then I should really avoid using a carbon rim and the Industry 9 spokes as it *could* lead to a problem.

  22. #122
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    Well I remember some engineering guru saying some type of grease will do the trick. Look back earlier posts. That should help.
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  23. #123
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    OK, so I am not crazy - on page 3 of this thread people were mentioning it was because non-anodized nipples were being used in the Enve builds.

    Also on page 3 it mentions using marine grease - to do the trick. I think I will place a call to Industry 9 and get their take on the situation.

  24. #124
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    You are correct. People said both but I had found out from Enve engineers that the pillars were and are anodized. Now have switched to brass.
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by 29or6to4 View Post
    You are correct. People said both but I had found out from Enve engineers that the pillars were and are anodized. Now have switched to brass.
    If Enve was using anodized nipples all along someone would have corrected this thread much sooner than your post.

    There are pictures clearly showing the Pillar nipples. Please share pictures of the anodized pillar nipples that look exactly like the non anno.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post
    If Enve was using anodized nipples all along someone would have corrected this thread much sooner than your post.

    There are pictures clearly showing the Pillar nipples. Please share pictures of the anodized pillar nipples that look exactly like the non anno.
    It is entirely possible that those pictures that are currently available ARE the anodized ones - even if they are silver. Only way to know if they are anodized would be to do a proper material analysis of the component in question.

  27. #127
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    I'm only relaying what my conversation was with a engineer. I see no reason for him to lie to me. That's all.
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  28. #128
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by 29or6to4 View Post
    I'm only relaying what my conversation was with a engineer. I see no reason for him to lie to me. That's all.
    It makes sense. Why would there even be a non ano nipple? For racing on indoor velodromes? Sweat and water would still get in the nipple seat.

  29. #129
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    I have recently got the Enve AM rims built, and had the nipples hard anodised by the local shop. Which probably mean the nipples supplies weren't anodised.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Good idea, except Industry 9 spokes dont use nipples.

    thought maybe you were using their jspoke hubs. my bad.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29or6to4 View Post
    Ano is not the problem. All Enves nipples are ano. It's the static charge causing the problem.
    No they are not. I have the email here from ENVE stating "these nipples from Pillar are not hard anodized", I also ordered new pillar nipples before I seen the whole wheel and they look to be still the same non ano'd nipples.

    IMO its a bit of a mix between static charge (galvanic corrosion) and a reaction with or helped along by tubeless fluid.
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  32. #132
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    Not all anodizing is "hard" (type III) anodizing. There is also type II "decorative" anodizing. In fact, I would be surprised if hard anodizing was used on ANY spoke nipples since it's intended primarily for wear applications.
    whatever...

  33. #133
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    Most anodizing is clear anodizing. Almost all alu parts gets anodized, you just dont see it.

    As for the carbon rims and nipples I'd say it would take on the order of like 5 years for a chromed/nickeled brass nipple to get so corroded it fails, its not really a noble metal and it corrodes too, but much much slower especially if used with some synthetic grease.

    The way I see it is that the carbon rim itself is such a good conductor and you have goo in there that acts as an electrolyte and not only that, it gets worse actually; if the goo is not at ph7 or close too it this corrosive action will definitely be sped up, just dunk some alu foil in the sink, some other piece of metal and then some lye/water solution and see what happens. Actually don't do that.
    But its gets worse still, since the liquid is moving all the time all the newly formed corrosion is washed away immediately to expose new fresh metal to corrode.

    Also i have a feeling the wheel is acting as a Homopolar generator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Where the rotor is is the wheel and the applied magnetic field is the earths own magnetic field at like 0.5 gauss, and the wheel builds up a charge of some sort (since its isloated) also speeding the corrosion up.

    A homopolar generator is a DC electrical generator comprising an electrically conductive disc or cylinder rotating in a plane perpendicular to a uniform static magnetic field. A potential difference is created between the center of the disc and the rim (or ends of the cylinder), the electrical polarity depending on the direction of rotation and the orientation of the field. It is also known as a unipolar generator, acyclic generator, disk dynamo, or Faraday disc. The voltage is typically low, on the order of a few volts in the case of small demonstration models, but large research generators can produce hundreds of volts, and some systems have multiple generators in series to produce an even larger voltage.[1] They are unusual in that they can source tremendous electric current, some more than a million amperes, because the homopolar generator can be made to have very low internal resistance.
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    Yeah, well I don't know how much this contributes, if it contributes at all, but I have a feeling we are seeing a bit of this effect too, possibly quite a lot.

    And we live here, on this spinning magnet.

    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.-geodynamo_between_reversals.gif
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  34. #134
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    Dude. I don't know if your full of **** or what but...wow you just went off the hook. Well done explaining that.
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  35. #135
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    The way I see it is that the carbon rim itself is such a good conductor and you have goo in there that acts as an electrolyte and not only that, it gets worse actually; if the goo is not at ph7 or close too it this corrosive action will definitely be sped up, just dunk some alu foil in the sink, some other piece of metal and then some lye/water solution and see what happens. Actually don't do that.
    But its gets worse still, since the liquid is moving all the time all the newly formed corrosion is washed away immediately to expose new fresh metal to corrode.
    There's a point at which common sense must factor in.
    No latex-based "goo" is at pH 7 or it would be pretty useless.
    You must not be aware that the liquid in a bike wheel is not in direct contact with the nipples such that it washes anything... right?

    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    Also i have a feeling the wheel is acting as a Homopolar generator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    This is a very interesting thought, though it would take some convincing for me to believe that the quantities involved are even remotely relevant. One of the downsides of homopolar motors/generators is the HUGE discrepancy between current and work, though corrosion doesn't take much current.
    Still a good thought... the same principle/forces involved as in a railgun, only in reverse.

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  36. #136
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    Holy crap, now I really dont know if I should use my aluminum I9 spokes with carbon wheels.

  37. #137
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    Aluminum spokes aren't the best idea for any (tensioned) wheels, IMHO.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    There's a point at which common sense must factor in.
    No latex-based "goo" is at pH 7 or it would be pretty useless.
    You must not be aware that the liquid in a bike wheel is not in direct contact with the nipples such that it washes anything... right?


    This is a very interesting thought, though it would take some convincing for me to believe that the quantities involved are even remotely relevant. One of the downsides of homopolar motors/generators is the HUGE discrepancy between current and work, though corrosion doesn't take much current.
    Still a good thought... the same principle/forces involved as in a railgun, only in reverse.

    I have neither enve carbon rims, nor any type of tubeless system, or even used any tubeless system so no, I'm not 100% aware how those work, or what the liquid inside them consist of. I read in another thread about some guy allegedly getting soap on his nipples () and they started corroding, the soap was from seating the tire, so I figured maybe the systems are not working exactly as advertised all the time.

    However if the liquid is not even in contact with the nipples then I'd say the problem is much worse than I first thought. This will get interesting since so many people now have carbon rims. Product recalls anyone?
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  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I have neither enve carbon rims, nor any type of tubeless system, or even used any tubeless system so no, I'm not 100% aware how those work, or what the liquid inside them consist of.
    10-4
    Well... the pH of Stan's is probably ~10. Other latex-based sealants would be about the same to prevent the latex from coagulating.
    The sealant is in the tire, which is isolated from the rim cavity (where the nipples are) by either rim tape or a rim strip or both.
    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I read in another thread about some guy allegedly getting soap on his nipples () and they started corroding, the soap was from seating the tire, so I figured maybe the systems are not working exactly as advertised all the time.
    The details are relevant when it comes to some guy and his nipples. There are many variants of tubeless set-ups, and it sounds like you don't know which "system" (if any) he was using.
    Things do not always work as advertised, and that is particularly and often true if you are working outside of manufacturers' intended uses, which is often the case with "ghetto" tubeless set-ups.
    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    However if the liquid is not even in contact with the nipples then I'd say the problem is much worse than I first thought. This will get interesting since so many people now have carbon rims. Product recalls anyone?
    It will be interesting. I have a theory that Gorilla tape set-ups may be particularly susceptible to this problem by allowing ammonia gas diffusion through the tape and into the rim cavity. The backing of Gorilla tape is perforated to allow it to be torn straight across by hand. The adhesive layer covers the holes enough to allow it to hold air, particularly when sealant is used, but I wonder if it is not pervious to ammonia gas.
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  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post

    It will be interesting. I have a theory that Gorilla tape set-ups may be particularly susceptible to this problem by allowing ammonia gas diffusion through the tape and into the rim cavity. The backing of Gorilla tape is perforated to allow it to be torn straight across by hand. The adhesive layer covers the holes enough to allow it to hold air, particularly when sealant is used, but I wonder if it is not pervious to ammonia gas.
    Its probably not even diffusion proof/tight with air if its only a thin tape, very few materials are apparantly. If ammonia gets to the nipples then they probably get corroded very quickly, even without any galvanic potential. Yeah it makes sense. A lot actually. However If its only corrosion caused by the ammonia we would have seen this before (with alu rims and nipples) since that must have been done a few times before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    Aluminum spokes aren't the best idea for any (tensioned) wheels, IMHO.
    Why not? I have several sets of I9 that are fantastic / given me zero problems.

  42. #142
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    Well, eventual fatigue failure is guaranteed on Aluminum alloy spoke. On steel, it can be avoided; same spokes can be reused over many wheels, if certain use conditions are met. There are no conditions to meet with an Aluminum spoke, except never riding the wheel.

    And I also think (not sure though, a material scientist is welcome to shed some light here) that fatigue crack propagation, once initiated from a stress riser, is also faster in Aluminum alloys than in a good steel spoke. And it's easier to mechanically create a stress riser in Aluminum than it is in steel (like when chain is overshifted into spokes).

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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    And I also think (not sure though, a material scientist is welcome to shed some light here) that fatigue crack propagation, once initiated from a stress riser, is also faster in Aluminum alloys than in a good steel spoke. And it's easier to mechanically create a stress riser in Aluminum than it is in steel (like when chain is overshifted into spokes).
    From a materials science standpoint you are correct on both counts.
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  44. #144
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    ENVE is now switching over to Brass nipples. Give them a call and they will get you a set of Brass ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    Well, eventual fatigue failure is guaranteed on Aluminum alloy spoke. On steel, it can be avoided; same spokes can be reused over many wheels, if certain use conditions are met. There are no conditions to meet with an Aluminum spoke, except never riding the wheel.

    And I also think (not sure though, a material scientist is welcome to shed some light here) that fatigue crack propagation, once initiated from a stress riser, is also faster in Aluminum alloys than in a good steel spoke. And it's easier to mechanically create a stress riser in Aluminum than it is in steel (like when chain is overshifted into spokes).
    Actually on alu, where the fatigue begins is like 50Mpa (and 6k series has a yeild strength/ultimate tensile of like 2-300/350-400MPa)
    IIRC.......

    Whereas a typical bike steel such as a low carbon, low alloyed chrome molybden alloyed stuff (4130) this point could be at like 500MPa, IE half the yeild strength of the material.

    Fatigue is crack propagation over time.
    Creep is plastic permanent deformation over time. *(Under load for both obviously)

    So yes there is a point where alu is not affected but its very very low.
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  46. #146
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    Well, there's also stress corrosion cracking besides fatigue cracking. And Aluminum alloy parts under tension are subject to that, too.

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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    Whereas a typical bike steel such as a low carbon, low alloyed chrome molybden alloyed stuff (4130) this point could be at like 500MPa, IE half the yeild strength of the material.
    Not that it affects the numbers you're talking about that much, but there are no bicycle spokes made of 4130.
    304 stainless is by far the most common.

    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    So yes there is a point where alu is not affected but its very very low.
    I think that was the point he was making; aluminum is MUCH more susceptible to fatigue than steel.
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    29er Tire Weight Database

  48. #148
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    So maybe I missed it in this thread....
    But there are a bunch of manufacturers making carbon rims that use alloy nipples.
    I have a set of the original Zipps from around 1994 that I use for cross and ride in crappy weather....they have alloy nipples.
    Why is Enve the only one to be having this problem?

  49. #149
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    Simple....Mr. Mayor....ENVE uses a hidden nipple system(inside the rim) Moisture gets in and never the nips just corrode if not maintained. External nipples last much much longer

  50. #150
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    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.

    I though part of the issue was the type of anodized nipple ENVE decided to use?

    No?

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