• 02-07-2013
    Micka
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Heres the nipples from the rear wheel...


    Wow. That is a horror show.

    I know Enve doesn't make the nipples, but this has put a real dent in my attitude toward their gear.
  • 02-07-2013
    mad dog26
    I bought a pair of used Enve's "in awesome condition" ha, ha....

    exactly the same issue on front, am yet to look at the rear.

    Seller claimed wheels are a year old which seems about right from above posts.

    I bought a full set of new nipples and then snapped 2 spokes getting them off....
    Not sure if i should just go straight for the brass nips...

    I have a set of crests rims with bladed spokes and alu nipples which are almost 3 yrs old and have never had a spoke spanner on them.

    Enve have not answered my email from 2 weeks ago yet. I will try the direct contact Ozzy pmed me....

    I bought the wheels for 2 main reasons (over other options)
    1 Enve's reputation of bullet proof wheels.
    2 Enve's reputation for awesome customer service.
  • 02-07-2013
    Levi707
    well any thought of purchasing a set of these wheels just went out the window....
  • 02-07-2013
    crux
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mad dog26 View Post
    I bought the wheels for 2 main reasons (over other options)
    1 Enve's reputation of bullet proof wheels.
    2 Enve's reputation for awesome customer service.

    I brought in a set of ENVEs here recently and like the way they built up and have been riding them for a little over 2 months. After seeing this thread I wanted to check the nipples. I did not find fluid in the rim which is a plus but they are already showing signs of corrosion. ENVE may not cover nipple corrosion but if that is the case they will soon have significant issues asking nearly $3K for a wheelset.

    For a company taking a small financial hit offering replacement nipples with a brass option it would provide a significant return on the investment. If they deny replacements then the company will be short lived. Will follow up after I speak with them.
  • 02-07-2013
    Jetta2010
    I have been battling this same issue on albeit different (and much much cheaper) wheelset. Been riding since 1990 and have never had to deal with this before. Very discouraging.
  • 02-07-2013
    Pau11y
    I know this is an Enve thread, but has anyone had any issues w/ Reynolds rims/nipples and corrosion?
  • 02-07-2013
    customfab
    I feel the need to stick up for Enve. I've built ~100 of their wheels and I've owned 3 different sets and have several customers with them. Only one of them has had problems with nipple corrosion. On top of that their customer service is top notch. I've seen them warranty things they shouldn't have, just to keep a customer happy. So even though this thread makes it look like everybody is having this problem my sample size is a little bigger and I'm inclined to say that it is a relatively small number of wheels that are suffering from this.
  • 02-07-2013
    smithrider
    I hope your are right customfab, as I just bought a set of ENVE AM 29er wheels over other carbon options due to their "known" reliability. Fingers crossed!
  • 02-08-2013
    crux
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    I know this is an Enve thread, but has anyone had any issues w/ Reynolds rims/nipples and corrosion?

    Just built up a set a week ago of Reynolds but used Brass nipples. Even with Alloy nipples I would expect that on the Reynolds would not have the issue as bad as you would see the corrosion (If it started).

    On the Enve the nipples are hidden from view. If you don't check them then they "could" fail while riding. After talking with Enve it sounds like they are aware of and in process of a solution. From the sounds of it Enve cares about their product and customers. Hopefully a solution is on the horizon with it being available to customers seeing corrosion.
  • 02-08-2013
    Adroit Rider
    The decision to use non anodized nipples still baffles me. ENVE employs some of the best engineers to design a rim but then go with a nipple that compromises longevity and rider safety? Where were the engineers when this business decision was made? Classic example of the left hand not talking to the right and a business person making an engineers decision.

    To all the engineers out there - don't back down when an accountant, product manager, or supply chain inserts their misguided opinion on your product.
  • 02-08-2013
    dlennard
    I don't know why a product like Tef-Gel is not used. I use it on boats and have had no problems.
    TEFF GEL TEFGEL Corrosion Eliminator at West Marine
  • 02-08-2013
    customfab
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dlennard View Post
    I don't know why a product like Tef-Gel is not used. I use it on boats and have had no problems.
    TEFF GEL TEFGEL Corrosion Eliminator at West Marine

    That stuff sounds cool. Description says it's for nickle based alloys, does it work on aluminum?
  • 02-09-2013
    Tree
    What size are the nipples that Enve uses? would like to get a wrench to have on hand.

    Would dripping some oil on the nipples keep them from corroding?
  • 02-09-2013
    rockyuphill
  • 02-09-2013
    J. Random Psycho
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tree View Post
    What size are the nipples that Enve uses? would like to get a wrench to have on hand.

    3/16". I used Park Tool SW-16.3 to build mine.


    As for corrosion protection, I'd try to get them anodized. It's a real shame that 7075 alloy is used bare.
  • 02-10-2013
    Pau11y
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post
    To all the engineers out there - don't back down when an accountant, product manager, or supply chain inserts their misguided opinion on your product.

    That's when you make them sign-off on your design spec/drawings...cite names, company(s), and your objections, and have it locked into the project documentation...from experience in the EPC(L) industry. It's Engineering, Procurement, and Construction...what they don't tell you in the private sector is the "Litigation" part ;) New grads, beware!
  • 02-12-2013
    Ligero
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    I feel the need to stick up for Enve. I've built ~100 of their wheels and I've owned 3 different sets and have several customers with them. Only one of them has had problems with nipple corrosion. On top of that their customer service is top notch. I've seen them warranty things they shouldn't have, just to keep a customer happy. So even though this thread makes it look like everybody is having this problem my sample size is a little bigger and I'm inclined to say that it is a relatively small number of wheels that are suffering from this.

    I am with you on this. I have seen Enve warranty some things that no way would I ever think they should have replaced. I have built hundreds of Enve rims and have not seen a single case of nipple corrosion. I do coat the nipples in heavy marine grease on the outside and inside on the threads. I started doing that from the beginning because of the problems I have seen with galvanic corrosion between carbon and aluminum parts.

    I have actually seen many different parts on bikes have corrosion issues, it is not an alloy nipple problem. There are so many dissimilar metals touching each other on bikes that corrosion can be a big problem depending on your environment.
  • 02-12-2013
    29or6to4
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ligero View Post
    I am with you on this. I have seen Enve warranty some things that no way would I ever think they should have replaced. I have built hundreds of Enve rims and have not seen a single case of nipple corrosion. I do coat the nipples in heavy marine grease on the outside and inside on the threads. I started doing that from the beginning because of the problems I have seen with galvanic corrosion between carbon and aluminum parts.

    I have actually seen many different parts on bikes have corrosion issues, it is not an alloy nipple problem. There are so many dissimilar metals touching each other on bikes that corrosion can be a big problem depending on your environment.


    Well Ligero. I hear what your saying about YOU building Enve wheels without nipple corrosion. But you obviously know something Enve doesn't. Because the wheels I bought from Enve and they built does not have a lube on them and there in lies the problem. WHY NOT?

    I brought this issue to people's attention awhile ago with my Edges and they were very quick to rebuild at no charge. Enve rocks but why has a simple solution like lubing the nipples at build time not been adopted?

    Food for thought.
  • 02-12-2013
    Ligero
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 29or6to4 View Post
    Well Ligero. I hear what your saying about YOU building Enve wheels without nipple corrosion. But you obviously know something Enve doesn't. Because the wheels I bought from Enve and they built does not have a lube on them and there in lies the problem. WHY NOT?

    I brought this issue to people's attention awhile ago with my Edges and they were very quick to rebuild at no charge. Enve rocks but why has a simple solution like lubing the nipples at build time not been adopted?

    Food for thought.

    Not really a good reason but time has a lot to do with it. When you have a huge backlog of orders and then you have to factor in another two steps (greasing and the cleanup after the build) to the build those steps may get skipped because of lack of time.

    Not saying that is the reason or even a good excuse but something to consider.
  • 02-12-2013
    29or6to4
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ligero View Post
    Not really a good reason but time has a lot to do with it. When you have a huge backlog of orders and then you have to factor in another two steps (greasing and the cleanup after the build) to the build those steps may get skipped because of lack of time.

    Not saying that is the reason or even a good excuse but something to consider.


    Defiantly something to consider. But they are losing quite a profit margin when you take in the time to warranty a wheel set. Tear down,new spokes, new bad nipples, build and ship...with a beautiful wheel box;).
  • 02-12-2013
    Adroit Rider
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ligero View Post
    Not really a good reason but time has a lot to do with it. When you have a huge backlog of orders and then you have to factor in another two steps (greasing and the cleanup after the build) to the build those steps may get skipped because of lack of time.

    Not saying that is the reason or even a good excuse but something to consider.

    I wouldn't blame the builder as I bet they assumed an anodized nipple. The blame lies solely on the guy who put the nipples on the work bench.

    Eliminate the root cause of the problem.
  • 02-12-2013
    ozzybmx
    A short update from my issue. I cant say too much but im being looked after very well by ENVE on this issue now and can 100% say my faith in their Customer Service Dept is restored and they have surpassed what level of duty/care i would have even expected.
  • 02-12-2013
    mazspeed
    Hey Ozzy, sorry about those issues you are having. That stinks, but at least they are taking care of you. I do have a question, why not ti nipples? Is this not an option? I am also looking into Reynolds wheels with AL nipples from I9. I will ask if they have seen these issues as well.
  • 02-13-2013
    ozzybmx
    Yo Maz, the non-anodized nipple issue is a first.... an soft alloy internal nipple in a tubeless wheel, sealed from the inside apart from a possible leakage of Stans through gorilla tape in a dry and dusty enviroment.... who would have guessed the reaction.

    I was 100% alright about fixing the issue myself but now ENVE have got on the case and its all good.
  • 02-13-2013
    mazspeed
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Yo Maz, the non-anodized nipple issue is a first.... an soft alloy internal nipple in a tubeless wheel, sealed from the inside apart from a possible leakage of Stans through gorilla tape in a dry and dusty enviroment.... who would have guessed the reaction.

    I was 100% alright about fixing the issue myself but now ENVE have got on the case and its all good.

    That's great to hear.
  • 02-14-2013
    meltingfeather
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    possible leakage of Stans through gorilla tape

    Gorilla tape seems to me to have a bunch of holes in the backing layer that are only covered by the adhesive...
  • 02-14-2013
    ozzybmx
    I'll never use it again. 3M tensalized packing tape is the go.
  • 02-14-2013
    spsoon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    I'll never use it again. 3M tensalized packing tape is the go.

    Which variety, exactly? And where do you buy it? Seems hard to find small quantities of stuff like that.
  • 02-14-2013
    meltingfeather
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by spsoon View Post
    Which variety, exactly? And where do you buy it? Seems hard to find small quantities of stuff like that.

    Google 3M 8898
    I was never able to find less than 10 60m rolls, and its not all that much cheaper than Stan's tape, even when bought in quantity, and it is thinner than Stan's tape.
  • 02-14-2013
    spsoon
    Thanks. Guess it's not worth the hassle if it's not much cheaper.
  • 02-17-2013
    compengr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Google 3M 8898
    I was never able to find less than 10 60m rolls, and its not all that much cheaper than Stan's tape, even when bought in quantity, and it is thinner than Stan's tape.

    Here you go: Welcome to R.S.Hughes

    I've taped and re-taped 4 sets of wheels for almost 3 years one one roll. Definitely cheaper than stans. As a bonus, it comes in two colors ;)
  • 02-17-2013
    meltingfeather
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Here you go: Welcome to R.S.Hughes

    I've taped and re-taped 4 sets of wheels for almost 3 years one one roll. Definitely cheaper than stans. As a bonus, it comes in two colors ;)

    Killer!! Thanks!
    My only question is why do you retape your wheels every year?
  • 02-17-2013
    compengr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Killer!! Thanks!
    My only question is why do you retape your wheels every year?

    Broken or damages spokes and rim changes for the most part.
  • 02-17-2013
    ozzybmx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Killer!! Thanks!
    My only question is why do you retape your wheels every year?

    I had a 72mm roll and a 24mm roll bought and paid for from RS Hughes, they emailed me 2 days later and told me the shipping to aus was $120 for 2 rolls of tape via FedEx !

    For anyone my side of the pond go to element14 for it but there is only a couple of sizes.
  • 02-17-2013
    pedalitup
    Thanks for all this awesome discussion and info. I'm considering some new 9000 C-24 wheels for my road bike and researched my way here. Where does Enves or any typical composite material rate on anodic index scale compared to brass and aluminum?
  • 02-18-2013
    car bone
    I mark a door by using a vernier caliper for accurate distance and put small pieces of tape there. then I just line up the tape I want at a certain width with the small ones I already taped to the door. And then I just cut it off at the corner. Whats left on the door is the correct width tape.

    Edit: sorry I was supposed to quote ozzy but somehow I was to incompentent to actually pull it off.
  • 02-21-2013
    WilliamK
    2 Attachment(s)
    After reading Ozzys account and then hearing a little rattle in my rear wheel, I decided to have a look inside my Enves.

    Now the front wheel was re-strung 3 months ago after a big off and the rear has been on for 12 months. I stripped down both wheels and found corrosion as suspected. Attachment 774255

    So I replaced all of the nipples with brass nipples this time, hopefully I will get better wheel life out of them. Some of the nipples were so corroded that it was difficult to get them out or to get the spoke out. 8 spokes were damaged due to the nipple corrosion. I replaced a 9th spoke because I must have chomped a branch or something sometime.

    Some nipples were destroyed, here are some with a little pitting Attachment 774254

    I am showing this for the information of people in dry humid climates, watch your nipples on carbon wheels. As I have said above, I have had the same problem with DT Swiss carbon wheels as well. Im not here to bash any one manufacturer, it is the materials that we are working with here.

    Kudos to Enve if they work to resolve this, as the problem is only prevalent in particular climates.

    Thanks Ozzy for your story, it helped encourage me to check something I should have checked earlier.
  • 02-21-2013
    meltingfeather
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WilliamK View Post
    I am showing this for the information of people in dry humid climates, watch your nipples on carbon wheels.

    What's a dry humid climate?
  • 02-21-2013
    AlienRFX
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    What's a dry humid climate?

    Georgia, in a drought. Or damn near most of the southeast in the summer.
  • 02-21-2013
    WilliamK
    Good point meltingfeather, seems like a conflicted statement indeed.

    Come on down to Australia and we'll show you some great tracks to ride. Dusty, hot and dry. Yet, very humid, you'll be sweating like you have never done before. It will melt your feathers.
    It is the sweating that eats em, in my opinion. It rains, and it is wet and cool yes, but the electrolysis isn't as bad with out the higher temps that we can get. Then, after the rain, moisture is present and the heat returns to make things sweat some more, because they didn't sweat enough before hand. It's the heat combined with humidity we get here. Saps the life out of you on long climbs. Well, that's what a sumize. Cheers
  • 02-22-2013
    Tree
    "So I replaced all of the nipples with brass nipples this time"

    What kind/brand brass nipples did you use?
  • 02-22-2013
    ozzybmx
    Darwin here in Oz.... 35degC hot as fu#k and 95% humidity !

    Not a pleasant place to be nevermind ride a bike, im breaking out in a sweat that isnt mine even thinking about it..... soaked to the skin 24/7.

    In South Oz where i am its up to 45deg and really dry but i dont ride in that, 32deg is my limit and my bikes live in an aircon'd room in my house :thumbsup:
  • 02-22-2013
    Adroit Rider
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post

    In South Oz where i am its up to 45deg and really dry but i dont ride in that, 32deg is my limit and my bikes live in an aircon'd room in my house :thumbsup:

    I wonder if condensation occurs when going from the AC room to outside? I know I have seen a sheen of condensation on my bike but can't remember when, or how drastic the temp change was.


    I think of an aluminum can coming from the fridge on hot day and all the moisture that emits.
  • 02-22-2013
    ozzybmx
    Its a dry 22deg. Besides the nipples are completely sealed inside the wheel, they are not subjected to the outside.

    The nipples are sealed inside the rim with gorilla tape on the other side.

    Im just ruling out a constant wet atmosphere for the issue.
  • 02-22-2013
    AZ
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Its a dry 22deg. Besides the nipples are completely sealed inside the wheel, they are not subjected to the outside.

    The nipples are sealed inside the rim with gorilla tape on the other side.

    Im just ruling out a constant wet atmosphere for the issue.



    The moisture could be introduced with the air that you inflate your tires with. Add the known corrosive properties of Stan's and the issue is compounded. A "dry" air source might be prudent to help preserve the stock ENVE nipples. Just a thought.
  • 02-22-2013
    ozzybmx
    Why what a beautiful insight AZ :D

    The real base issue is the non-ano soft alu nipples, the new brass are just as light.... cant say much more but ENVE have gone beyond their expectations.
  • 02-22-2013
    Pau11y
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    The real base issue is the non-ano soft alu nipples, the new brass are just as light.... cant say much more but ENVE have gone beyond their expectations.

    Agreed, since condensation would be distilled water, or pH neutral, and thus non-conductive...
  • 02-22-2013
    derby
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Its a dry 22deg. Besides the nipples are completely sealed inside the wheel, they are not subjected to the outside.

    The nipples are sealed inside the rim with gorilla tape on the other side.

    Im just ruling out a constant wet atmosphere for the issue.

    The Enve spokes are sealed somehow? That is not the case with any other wheel I'm aware of.

    It does seem you had some bad nipples or moist shipping or storage conditions before you got the wheels. Only a few others have reported this problem. Good to hear Enve is taking care of you, finally.
  • 02-22-2013
    skiahh
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post
    I wonder if condensation occurs when going from the AC room to outside? I know I have seen a sheen of condensation on my bike but can't remember when, or how drastic the temp change was.


    I think of an aluminum can coming from the fridge on hot day and all the moisture that emits.

    Condensation occurs when going from warm to cold. The can coming from the fridge generates condensation when the warm air contacts the cold can and the moisture condenses out of the air; the can "emits" nothing. So it would be going from his ride into his house that might generate moisture on the bike and parts.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Its a dry 22deg. Besides the nipples are completely sealed inside the wheel, they are not subjected to the outside.

    The nipples are sealed inside the rim with gorilla tape on the other side.

    Im just ruling out a constant wet atmosphere for the issue.

    The inside is - theoretically - sealed from the inside by your tape. However, I had to pull boogers out of the rim cavity of mine a few months ago. Guess the gorilla tape let some sealant through into the cavity where the nipples are mounted. I'm a bit nervous and figure I'm going to have to inspect mine pretty soon. Since I re-taped it, no rattling/boogers in there, though.

    Where the spokes go into the rim, however, isn't water or air tight as far as I can tell. Making that opening sealed would require a specific size and shape of spoke, and would make building the wheel pretty time consuming to set the spoke and then ensure it is, in fact, sealed. So I have to disagree that the nipples are completely sealed and would say they are completely open to the environment and only sealed from the sealant... hopefully.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    The moisture could be introduced with the air that you inflate your tires with. Add the known corrosive properties of Stan's and the issue is compounded. A "dry" air source might be prudent to help preserve the stock ENVE nipples. Just a thought.

    So now we're back to nitrogen for inflating our bike tires? Ugh! lol
  • 02-22-2013
    meltingfeather
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Condensation occurs when going from warm to cold. The can coming from the fridge generates condensation when the warm air contacts the cold can and the moisture condenses out of the air; the can "emits" nothing. So it would be going from his ride into his house that might generate moisture on the bike and parts.

    Other way around. Cold (relatively) bike into a warm, humid environment will generate condensation on the bike.
    You are right about the moisture condensing on the cold can. Your bike is not going to be cold when coming inside from outside and the air indoors is typically dried by air conditioning.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Where the spokes go into the rim, however, isn't water or air tight as far as I can tell.

    I agree. Grease will help somewhat but isn't going to last forever.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    So now we're back to nitrogen for inflating our bike tires? Ugh! lol

    lol
    I don't think the moisture that enters the tires with the inflation air is significant when compared to the sealant sloshing around in the tire, which contains a signficant quantity of water.