• 02-22-2013
    J. Random Psycho
    +1 on nipples not creating a watertight seal against the rim.
  • 02-22-2013
    ozzybmx
    The face where the nipple touches the rim was the only part not corroded, its also got up to 120kgf holding it in position.

    When I inflated my new setup the pressure of the air on the new tubeless tape pushes it down and the air hissed out through the valve stem so if theres antwhere moisture is getting in it will be the valve stem even with the ' O' ring in place.
  • 02-22-2013
    Adroit Rider
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Condensation occurs when going from warm to cold. The can coming from the fridge generates condensation when the warm air contacts the cold can and the moisture condenses out of the air; the can "emits" nothing. So it would be going from his ride into his house that might generate moisture on the bike and parts.

    lol

    There were two subjects referenced: cold can and hot day. The moisture emits (like the moon emits light) from the combination of the cold can and hot day.

    I have seen a layer of condensation on my bike when bringing it from the cold garage to the basement to wrench.
    I have seen the same layer after doing night laps at 24 hour races and bringing into the condo for rest.
  • 02-23-2013
    Varaxis
    Those nipples look corroded through and through, turning into powder. What kind of corrosion is that again?
  • 02-23-2013
    Tree
    What kind/brand of brass nipples can be used to replace the alloy ones?
  • 02-23-2013
    ozzybmx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Those nipples look corroded through and through, turning into powder. What kind of corrosion is that again?

    Fuc%ed corrosion, you have just bought 2-3K worth of wheels, any corrosion is not good .... but i can now say, you get what you pay for. ENVE have acknowledged the issue and are dealing with it 100%, they have done really well by me and have sorted my issue.

    They are a relitively new company with arguably the best carbon wheels on the market, they have encountered a stumbling block in dry climate/stans/gorilla/galvanic corrosion, no one could have predicted it but they are working through it very professionally.
  • 02-23-2013
    eb1888
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Fuc%ed corrosion, you have just bought 2-3K worth of wheels, any corrosion is not good .... but i can now say, you get what you pay for. ENVE have acknowledged the issue and are dealing with it 100%, they have done really well by me and have sorted my issue.

    They are a relitively new company with arguably the best carbon wheels on the market, they have encountered a stumbling block in dry climate/stans/gorilla/galvanic corrosion, no one could have predicted it but they are working through it very professionally.

    Certainly like the sound of a 100% solution. And this thread has been good at putting out info to find a fix. What are components of the solution they have come up with for you.
  • 02-23-2013
    Varaxis
    For reference, what did you wash your bike with?
  • 02-23-2013
    ozzybmx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    What are components of the solution they have come up with for you.

    Lets say my corrosion issue was pretty bad and they have got me to test out a new nipple, cant say too much more as ive signed a confidentiality agreement.

    Only sharing some info as i started this thread, im super happy with enve's input and can say again..... you get what you pay for.
  • 02-23-2013
    ozzybmx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    For reference, what did you wash your bike with?

    Water only, its an occasional hose down.... not even every ride, bikes stay pretty clean here.
  • 02-23-2013
    J. Random Psycho
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    The face where the nipple touches the rim was the only part not corroded, its also got up to 120kgf holding it in position.

    When I inflated my new setup the pressure of the air on the new tubeless tape pushes it down and the air hissed out through the valve stem so if theres antwhere moisture is getting in it will be the valve stem even with the ' O' ring in place.

    Could the corrosion on nipple faces be ground off against rim to bare metal when you unwound the nipples?

    But the valve stem hissing is a strong argument for nipple sealing actually happening on Enve rims (I haven't run mine tubeless, never noticed the hiss).
  • 02-23-2013
    eb1888
    Hopefully a solution will soon be available. In ordering a wheelset I would not want the Pillar alloy nipples used if they even are anymore.
  • 02-23-2013
    Varaxis
    I live inland desert conditions. Wonder if I should do anything with my wheels, even though they've been running for years. I took a look inside and I don't see anything out of the ordinary.

    I just figured Enve knew what they were doing and that corrosion shouldn't be a prob. I have first gen rims. If I saw that, I'd be pretty upset too. I thought corrosion was something that coastal and northern climate (salted roads) and maybe heavy sweaters would be more of a problem for. You saying you live in a dry desert like climate and using only water for washing. Time to look up galvanic corrosion to see if it needs some sort of catalyst, like an electrolyte (salt).
  • 02-23-2013
    J. Random Psycho
    Varaxis, since your rims are that old, they may have been built with nipples from a batch that Pillar actually took care to anodize..
  • 02-23-2013
    Adroit Rider
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    It should also be pointed out that galvanic corrosion does not only occur in water. Galvanic cells can form in any electrolyte, including moist air or soil, and chemical environments.

    .
    From the Internet.
  • 04-27-2013
    DrDon
    Two loose spokes led to discovering significant corrosion. ENVE has their own brass nipples in stock. Unfortunately, my LBS broke many spokes during disassembly and the wheels were built by them, so I'm out of a bike to ride for a couple of weeks, and cost Aerolite spokes plus new nipples plus the cost of rebuild. My first gen ENVEs were fine, but I used a split tube or tubes. But....I had to pay to respoke my SS wheels with Alpine IIIs, so there yah go.
  • 04-29-2013
    006_007
    Wow, talk about timing..... I was wondering if there was any corrosion issues between aluminium nips/carbon wheels and was gonna search this today and just came across this!

    I am planning on putting a set of carbon rims using Industry 9 hubs/spokes that I have but am now a bit concerned with the aluminium spokes having issues - I suppose as long as the anodizing on the spoke is intact I shouldnt have an issue......
  • 04-29-2013
    qbert2000
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Wow, talk about timing..... I was wondering if there was any corrosion issues between aluminium nips/carbon wheels and was gonna search this today and just came across this!

    I am planning on putting a set of carbon rims using Industry 9 hubs/spokes that I have but am now a bit concerned with the aluminium spokes having issues - I suppose as long as the anodizing on the spoke is intact I shouldnt have an issue......

    save the hassle and use brass nipples. peace of mind is worth the weight gain which is marginal
  • 04-29-2013
    006_007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    save the hassle and use brass nipples. peace of mind is worth the weight gain which is marginal

    Good idea, except Industry 9 spokes dont use nipples.
  • 04-29-2013
    29or6to4
    Ano is not the problem. All Enves nipples are ano. It's the static charge causing the problem.
  • 04-29-2013
    006_007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 29or6to4 View Post
    Ano is not the problem. All Enves nipples are ano. It's the static charge causing the problem.

    My bad, I thought that having a hard anodized nipple it would be ok. So then I should really avoid using a carbon rim and the Industry 9 spokes as it *could* lead to a problem.
  • 04-29-2013
    29or6to4
    Well I remember some engineering guru saying some type of grease will do the trick. Look back earlier posts. That should help.
  • 04-29-2013
    006_007
    OK, so I am not crazy - on page 3 of this thread people were mentioning it was because non-anodized nipples were being used in the Enve builds.

    Also on page 3 it mentions using marine grease - to do the trick. I think I will place a call to Industry 9 and get their take on the situation.
  • 04-29-2013
    29or6to4
    You are correct. People said both but I had found out from Enve engineers that the pillars were and are anodized. Now have switched to brass.
  • 04-29-2013
    Adroit Rider
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 29or6to4 View Post
    You are correct. People said both but I had found out from Enve engineers that the pillars were and are anodized. Now have switched to brass.

    If Enve was using anodized nipples all along someone would have corrected this thread much sooner than your post.

    There are pictures clearly showing the Pillar nipples. Please share pictures of the anodized pillar nipples that look exactly like the non anno.
  • 04-29-2013
    006_007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post
    If Enve was using anodized nipples all along someone would have corrected this thread much sooner than your post.

    There are pictures clearly showing the Pillar nipples. Please share pictures of the anodized pillar nipples that look exactly like the non anno.

    It is entirely possible that those pictures that are currently available ARE the anodized ones - even if they are silver. Only way to know if they are anodized would be to do a proper material analysis of the component in question.
  • 04-29-2013
    29or6to4
    I'm only relaying what my conversation was with a engineer. I see no reason for him to lie to me. That's all.
  • 04-29-2013
    Adroit Rider
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 29or6to4 View Post
    I'm only relaying what my conversation was with a engineer. I see no reason for him to lie to me. That's all.

    It makes sense. Why would there even be a non ano nipple? For racing on indoor velodromes? Sweat and water would still get in the nipple seat.
  • 04-29-2013
    TANK01
    I have recently got the Enve AM rims built, and had the nipples hard anodised by the local shop. Which probably mean the nipples supplies weren't anodised.
  • 04-29-2013
    qbert2000
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Good idea, except Industry 9 spokes dont use nipples.


    thought maybe you were using their jspoke hubs. my bad.
  • 04-29-2013
    ozzybmx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 29or6to4 View Post
    Ano is not the problem. All Enves nipples are ano. It's the static charge causing the problem.

    No they are not. I have the email here from ENVE stating "these nipples from Pillar are not hard anodized", I also ordered new pillar nipples before I seen the whole wheel and they look to be still the same non ano'd nipples.

    IMO its a bit of a mix between static charge (galvanic corrosion) and a reaction with or helped along by tubeless fluid.
  • 04-30-2013
    steadite
    Not all anodizing is "hard" (type III) anodizing. There is also type II "decorative" anodizing. In fact, I would be surprised if hard anodizing was used on ANY spoke nipples since it's intended primarily for wear applications.
  • 04-30-2013
    car bone
    2 Attachment(s)
    Most anodizing is clear anodizing. Almost all alu parts gets anodized, you just dont see it.

    As for the carbon rims and nipples I'd say it would take on the order of like 5 years for a chromed/nickeled brass nipple to get so corroded it fails, its not really a noble metal and it corrodes too, but much much slower especially if used with some synthetic grease.

    The way I see it is that the carbon rim itself is such a good conductor and you have goo in there that acts as an electrolyte and not only that, it gets worse actually; :) if the goo is not at ph7 or close too it this corrosive action will definitely be sped up, just dunk some alu foil in the sink, some other piece of metal and then some lye/water solution and see what happens. Actually don't do that.
    But its gets worse still, since the liquid is moving all the time all the newly formed corrosion is washed away immediately to expose new fresh metal to corrode.

    Also i have a feeling the wheel is acting as a Homopolar generator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Where the rotor is is the wheel and the applied magnetic field is the earths own magnetic field at like 0.5 gauss, and the wheel builds up a charge of some sort (since its isloated) also speeding the corrosion up.

    Quote:

    A homopolar generator is a DC electrical generator comprising an electrically conductive disc or cylinder rotating in a plane perpendicular to a uniform static magnetic field. A potential difference is created between the center of the disc and the rim (or ends of the cylinder), the electrical polarity depending on the direction of rotation and the orientation of the field. It is also known as a unipolar generator, acyclic generator, disk dynamo, or Faraday disc. The voltage is typically low, on the order of a few volts in the case of small demonstration models, but large research generators can produce hundreds of volts, and some systems have multiple generators in series to produce an even larger voltage.[1] They are unusual in that they can source tremendous electric current, some more than a million amperes, because the homopolar generator can be made to have very low internal resistance.
    Attachment 795127

    Yeah, well I don't know how much this contributes, if it contributes at all, but I have a feeling we are seeing a bit of this effect too, possibly quite a lot.

    And we live here, on this spinning magnet.

    Attachment 795128
  • 04-30-2013
    29or6to4
    Dude. I don't know if your full of shit or what but...wow you just went off the hook:). Well done explaining that.
  • 04-30-2013
    meltingfeather
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    The way I see it is that the carbon rim itself is such a good conductor and you have goo in there that acts as an electrolyte and not only that, it gets worse actually; :) if the goo is not at ph7 or close too it this corrosive action will definitely be sped up, just dunk some alu foil in the sink, some other piece of metal and then some lye/water solution and see what happens. Actually don't do that.
    But its gets worse still, since the liquid is moving all the time all the newly formed corrosion is washed away immediately to expose new fresh metal to corrode.

    There's a point at which common sense must factor in.
    No latex-based "goo" is at pH 7 or it would be pretty useless.
    You must not be aware that the liquid in a bike wheel is not in direct contact with the nipples such that it washes anything... right?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    Also i have a feeling the wheel is acting as a Homopolar generator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This is a very interesting thought, though it would take some convincing for me to believe that the quantities involved are even remotely relevant. One of the downsides of homopolar motors/generators is the HUGE discrepancy between current and work, though corrosion doesn't take much current.
    Still a good thought... the same principle/forces involved as in a railgun, only in reverse.

    :thumbsup:
  • 04-30-2013
    006_007
    Holy crap, now I really dont know if I should use my aluminum I9 spokes with carbon wheels. :yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes:: yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::y ikes::yikes::yikes:
  • 05-01-2013
    J. Random Psycho
    Aluminum spokes aren't the best idea for any (tensioned) wheels, IMHO.
  • 05-01-2013
    car bone
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    There's a point at which common sense must factor in.
    No latex-based "goo" is at pH 7 or it would be pretty useless.
    You must not be aware that the liquid in a bike wheel is not in direct contact with the nipples such that it washes anything... right?


    This is a very interesting thought, though it would take some convincing for me to believe that the quantities involved are even remotely relevant. One of the downsides of homopolar motors/generators is the HUGE discrepancy between current and work, though corrosion doesn't take much current.
    Still a good thought... the same principle/forces involved as in a railgun, only in reverse.

    :thumbsup:

    I have neither enve carbon rims, nor any type of tubeless system, or even used any tubeless system so no, I'm not 100% aware how those work, or what the liquid inside them consist of. I read in another thread about some guy allegedly getting soap on his nipples (:)) and they started corroding, the soap was from seating the tire, so I figured maybe the systems are not working exactly as advertised all the time.

    However if the liquid is not even in contact with the nipples then I'd say the problem is much worse than I first thought. This will get interesting since so many people now have carbon rims. Product recalls anyone?
  • 05-01-2013
    meltingfeather
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I have neither enve carbon rims, nor any type of tubeless system, or even used any tubeless system so no, I'm not 100% aware how those work, or what the liquid inside them consist of.

    10-4
    Well... the pH of Stan's is probably ~10. Other latex-based sealants would be about the same to prevent the latex from coagulating.
    The sealant is in the tire, which is isolated from the rim cavity (where the nipples are) by either rim tape or a rim strip or both.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I read in another thread about some guy allegedly getting soap on his nipples (:)) and they started corroding, the soap was from seating the tire, so I figured maybe the systems are not working exactly as advertised all the time.

    The details are relevant when it comes to some guy and his nipples. There are many variants of tubeless set-ups, and it sounds like you don't know which "system" (if any) he was using.
    Things do not always work as advertised, and that is particularly and often true if you are working outside of manufacturers' intended uses, which is often the case with "ghetto" tubeless set-ups.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    However if the liquid is not even in contact with the nipples then I'd say the problem is much worse than I first thought. This will get interesting since so many people now have carbon rims. Product recalls anyone?

    It will be interesting. I have a theory that Gorilla tape set-ups may be particularly susceptible to this problem by allowing ammonia gas diffusion through the tape and into the rim cavity. The backing of Gorilla tape is perforated to allow it to be torn straight across by hand. The adhesive layer covers the holes enough to allow it to hold air, particularly when sealant is used, but I wonder if it is not pervious to ammonia gas.
  • 05-01-2013
    car bone
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post

    It will be interesting. I have a theory that Gorilla tape set-ups may be particularly susceptible to this problem by allowing ammonia gas diffusion through the tape and into the rim cavity. The backing of Gorilla tape is perforated to allow it to be torn straight across by hand. The adhesive layer covers the holes enough to allow it to hold air, particularly when sealant is used, but I wonder if it is not pervious to ammonia gas.

    Its probably not even diffusion proof/tight with air if its only a thin tape, very few materials are apparantly. If ammonia gets to the nipples then they probably get corroded very quickly, even without any galvanic potential. Yeah it makes sense. A lot actually. However If its only corrosion caused by the ammonia we would have seen this before (with alu rims and nipples) since that must have been done a few times before.
  • 05-03-2013
    006_007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    Aluminum spokes aren't the best idea for any (tensioned) wheels, IMHO.

    Why not? I have several sets of I9 that are fantastic / given me zero problems.
  • 05-03-2013
    J. Random Psycho
    Well, eventual fatigue failure is guaranteed on Aluminum alloy spoke. On steel, it can be avoided; same spokes can be reused over many wheels, if certain use conditions are met. There are no conditions to meet with an Aluminum spoke, except never riding the wheel.

    And I also think (not sure though, a material scientist is welcome to shed some light here) that fatigue crack propagation, once initiated from a stress riser, is also faster in Aluminum alloys than in a good steel spoke. And it's easier to mechanically create a stress riser in Aluminum than it is in steel (like when chain is overshifted into spokes).
  • 05-03-2013
    meltingfeather
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    And I also think (not sure though, a material scientist is welcome to shed some light here) that fatigue crack propagation, once initiated from a stress riser, is also faster in Aluminum alloys than in a good steel spoke. And it's easier to mechanically create a stress riser in Aluminum than it is in steel (like when chain is overshifted into spokes).

    From a materials science standpoint you are correct on both counts.
  • 05-04-2013
    chpfly
    ENVE is now switching over to Brass nipples. Give them a call and they will get you a set of Brass ones.
  • 05-04-2013
    car bone
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    Well, eventual fatigue failure is guaranteed on Aluminum alloy spoke. On steel, it can be avoided; same spokes can be reused over many wheels, if certain use conditions are met. There are no conditions to meet with an Aluminum spoke, except never riding the wheel.

    And I also think (not sure though, a material scientist is welcome to shed some light here) that fatigue crack propagation, once initiated from a stress riser, is also faster in Aluminum alloys than in a good steel spoke. And it's easier to mechanically create a stress riser in Aluminum than it is in steel (like when chain is overshifted into spokes).

    Actually on alu, where the fatigue begins is like 50Mpa (and 6k series has a yeild strength/ultimate tensile of like 2-300/350-400MPa)
    IIRC.......

    Whereas a typical bike steel such as a low carbon, low alloyed chrome molybden alloyed stuff (4130) this point could be at like 500MPa, IE half the yeild strength of the material.

    Fatigue is crack propagation over time.
    Creep is plastic permanent deformation over time. *(Under load for both obviously)

    So yes there is a point where alu is not affected but its very very low.
  • 05-04-2013
    J. Random Psycho
    Well, there's also stress corrosion cracking besides fatigue cracking. And Aluminum alloy parts under tension are subject to that, too.
  • 05-04-2013
    meltingfeather
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    Whereas a typical bike steel such as a low carbon, low alloyed chrome molybden alloyed stuff (4130) this point could be at like 500MPa, IE half the yeild strength of the material.

    Not that it affects the numbers you're talking about that much, but there are no bicycle spokes made of 4130.
    304 stainless is by far the most common.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    So yes there is a point where alu is not affected but its very very low.

    I think that was the point he was making; aluminum is MUCH more susceptible to fatigue than steel.
  • 06-05-2013
    the mayor
    So maybe I missed it in this thread....
    But there are a bunch of manufacturers making carbon rims that use alloy nipples.
    I have a set of the original Zipps from around 1994 that I use for cross and ride in crappy weather....they have alloy nipples.
    Why is Enve the only one to be having this problem?
  • 06-05-2013
    Onetrack
    Simple....Mr. Mayor....ENVE uses a hidden nipple system(inside the rim) Moisture gets in and never the nips just corrode if not maintained. External nipples last much much longer
  • 06-05-2013
    Adroit Rider
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    I though part of the issue was the type of anodized nipple ENVE decided to use?

    No?
  • 06-05-2013
    jbent
    Have not read entire thread but have been lusting for a brass internal for sometime because of the quick galvanic corrosion that happens between carbon fiber and aluminum. Of the last few ENVE builds I did on the SES series they are now shipping with and inverted(traditional style) brass nipple. These are not the same as the DT hidden nipples by any means and they do not have a screw driver slot. The folks at ENVE confirmed that you CAN use these new nipples on their older hoops. I just spoke with them yesterday and confirmed that moving forward all hoops will be shipping with the new inverted brass nipps.
  • 06-05-2013
    jbent
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    Well, eventual fatigue failure is guaranteed on Aluminum alloy spoke. On steel, it can be avoided; same spokes can be reused over many wheels, if certain use conditions are met. There are no conditions to meet with an Aluminum spoke, except never riding the wheel.

    And I also think (not sure though, a material scientist is welcome to shed some light here) that fatigue crack propagation, once initiated from a stress riser, is also faster in Aluminum alloys than in a good steel spoke. And it's easier to mechanically create a stress riser in Aluminum than it is in steel (like when chain is overshifted into spokes).

    Completely with you here. I have never seen an I9 wheel that was not a problem. People bring them in because of busted spokes and out of round fairly frequently. Busting out an EZ Out to remove the threaded portion of the spoke which is broken off in the hub is not part of my wheel building tools nor should it be.
  • 06-05-2013
    the mayor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Onetrack View Post
    Simple....Mr. Mayor....ENVE uses a hidden nipple system(inside the rim) Moisture gets in and never the nips just corrode if not maintained. External nipples last much much longer

    That makes no sense.
    On other rims...part of the nipple are internal. Moisture gets to them...just like every other nipple. There is no difference.
  • 06-05-2013
    paradigm shifter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    Completely with you here. I have never seen an I9 wheel that was not a problem. People bring them in because of busted spokes and out of round fairly frequently. Busting out an EZ Out to remove the threaded portion of the spoke which is broken off in the hub is not part of my wheel building tools nor should it be.

    Do you bust out an EZ Out because you don't have a .05 allen key or is there another reason?
  • 06-05-2013
    meltingfeather
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paradigm shifter View Post
    Do you bust out an EZ Out because you don't have a .05 allen key or is there another reason?

    Likely either seizing or rounding out of the tiny allen key socket in the soft aluminum while trying to turn the large threads... or both.
    Its actually not all that unusual, since I9 spokes seem to break more than even S.Comps.
    But you know that already, of course. :thumbsup:
  • 06-05-2013
    paradigm shifter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    But you know that already, of course.

    Nope.

    I never had any issues with my I9s during 5 years of use/abuse.
  • 06-05-2013
    006_007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paradigm shifter View Post
    Nope.

    I never had any issues with my I9s during 5 years of use/abuse.

    Yup, I have 2 sets of I9 that are over 5 years or use in all sorts of weather conditions - I still have all 8 spare spokes that they came with sitting unused!

    Still sitting on the fence about using a carbon rim with the I9 Al spokes though.
  • 06-06-2013
    Onetrack
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    That makes no sense.
    On other rims...part of the nipple are internal. Moisture gets to them...just like every other nipple. There is no difference.

    Sorry Bud....Our shop has sold hundreds of wheels with internal nipples. (Reynolds road and ENVE) Salty enviroment and moistue does contribute to this galvic corrosion....and yes we do see the backs of standard nipples corrode too. Only brass last.
  • 06-06-2013
    ozzybmx
    The nipples ENVE were using were from a brand called "pillar", they are non anodized nipples. I was/am testing a new brass nipple that i havent weighed but looks to be as light as the alu ones and i can tell you has absolutely no issues now.

    Go forth and buy the best wheels available... let them know if you ride in a dry climate and they will give you the option, actually they will probably ask now as they are on top of the game, identified a small issue and want to stay there.
  • 06-06-2013
    the mayor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Onetrack View Post
    Sorry Bud....Our shop has sold hundreds of wheels with internal nipples. (Reynolds road and ENVE) Salty enviroment and moistue does contribute to this galvic corrosion....and yes we do see the backs of standard nipples corrode too. Only brass last.

    With that thinking...ALL alloy rims would fail along with the alloy nipples.
    OR....did Enve use cheesy nipples in their wheels?
    I don't hear of failures from folks who had other wheel builders build them.
    When I think of quality nipples....Pillar isn't the first name that comes to mind.
  • 06-06-2013
    ProEdgeBiker
    Damn!
  • 06-06-2013
    Adroit Rider
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    OR....did Enve use cheesy nipples in their wheels?
    I don't hear of failures from folks who had other wheel builders build them.
    When I think of quality nipples....Pillar isn't the first name that comes to mind.

    ENVE screwed the pooch and went with an unproven nipple.

    IMHO.
  • 06-06-2013
    the mayor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post
    ENVE screwed the pooch and went with an unproven nipple.

    IMHO.

    Pffft...that's just your opinion.
    What do you want for $3000?
    Do you expect them to use nipples that cost 50 cents a piece???
    BTW....I am being sarcastic.
  • 06-06-2013
    Adroit Rider
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    But, I don't blame ENVE. I believe it was DT Swiss that started the business practice of using an inferior nipple and by the time ENVE joined the game it was considered BAU.
  • 06-06-2013
    car bone
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    Completely with you here. I have never seen an I9 wheel that was not a problem. People bring them in because of busted spokes and out of round fairly frequently. Busting out an EZ Out to remove the threaded portion of the spoke which is broken off in the hub is not part of my wheel building tools nor should it be.

    either you sharpen a flat screwdriver and hammer it in gently to get purchase on the broken/flat side, Or, you bang in a slightly larger torx bit in the ruined hex hole, thats how its done. i.mo. i like 1/2 inch torx stuff for this since they are quite durable when banging them in into broken hex screws. if you get good torxbits they can easily replace the eze outs too doing the exact same stuff, without breaking :)
  • 06-06-2013
    jbent
    A good practice I have learned over the years is to use a tool for its intended purpose. I have also used torx for applications like this. With a wheel that is completely built and only needs one replacement it has proven easier to work with the size of an ez out. The .5 allen is no match for the the diameter of threads and thread locker used in the build.

    Enve used the same nipple Reynolds used... they are a spin off. Engineers decided to say F' this we can do better on our own. Weight weenies want less rotational weight and demand Alu, long term gains from serviceability stand point brass always wins.

    Shipping extra 8 spokes with a wheel is a sign to me that there is a design flaw.
    When I buy a car I do not expect for it to come with a spare transmission. If it did I would look at a mfg that had their act together.
  • 06-06-2013
    paradigm shifter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    Shipping extra 8 spokes with a wheel is a sign to me that there is a design flaw.

    psssst...8 spokes/2 wheelsets = 4 spokes per wheelset. 2 per wheel. Pretty standard. I always get a few extra spokes for those potential big-stick-through-wheel events when I'm road tripping.

    Using your "logic" there's some kind of design flaw in my CX Ray/ENVE build because I ordered some emergency back up spokes.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    When I buy a car I do not expect for it to come with a spare transmission. If it did I would look at a mfg that had their act together.

    Intelligent folks understand that your analogy is ridiculous.
  • 06-07-2013
    Fix the Spade
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    With that thinking...ALL alloy rims would fail along with the alloy nipples.
    OR....did Enve use cheesy nipples in their wheels?

    Correct and also correct.

    If you build an alloy rim with an unanodised alloy nipple, they will corrode and the nipple will fail. You'll get nice white lumps of alu oxide where your nipples used to be.

    ENVE used unanodised nipples, chemistry happend and they failed, pretty basic case of bad design.

    Almost all alloy nipples are anodised to avoid corrosion, so are rims (or they're powder coated) but even then it will still happen because anodising wears down or cracks over time/use. Alloy nipples in wheels need replacing a lot more than Brass ones.
  • 06-07-2013
    meltingfeather
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    With that thinking...ALL alloy rims would fail along with the alloy nipples.

    Galvanic corrosion occurs between dissimilar metals. It helps to have a little understanding of the basics. :thumbsup:
  • 06-07-2013
    meltingfeather
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    Correct and also correct.

    If you build an alloy rim with an unanodised alloy nipple, they will corrode and the nipple will fail. You'll get nice white lumps of alu oxide where your rim used to be.

    You do know that galvanic corrosion happens between dissimilar metals, right?

    Nothing like a bunch of people who don't understand the basics of corrosion fighting on the Internet about corrosion. :rolleyes:
  • 06-07-2013
    Fix the Spade
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    You do know that galvanic corrosion happens between dissimilar metals, right?

    I never mention galvanisation anywhere in that post. Alu rim/alu nipple is oxidisation from moisture, it still happens.
  • 06-07-2013
    Adroit Rider
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    You do know that galvanic corrosion happens between dissimilar metals, right?

    :rolleyes:

    And the point that hasn't been made is that aluminum nipples became popular because brass nipples and aluminum rims didn't jive well and customers hated seeing the aluminum eyelets on their rim turn to dust. The rim was failing due to a cheap, brass nipple.

    So...

    The aluminum nipple saved the day (the rim) and increased the life of the rim but required increased maintenance and or nipple replacement.

    But...

    The carbon rim came along and no one was smart enough (except my wheel builder and others) to figure out that rim life and overall wheel stability was increased by brass nipples.

    So...

    the benefits of aluminum nipples with carbon rims are merely cosmetic if you want non black or silver nipples.

    And...

    If you mention weight as a benefit I bet some math dude will quantify the weight savings as .03 seconds over a 10km uphill time trial.
  • 06-07-2013
    the mayor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Galvanic corrosion occurs between dissimilar metals. It helps to have a little understanding of the basics. :thumbsup:

    I have a very good understanding of the basics.
    And basically....out of the millions of carbon wheels out there with alloy nipples....a certain company is having problems with the wheels they build.

    Maybe I should go peel a tubie off a 20 year old Zipp that I use for cross. Wheel
    has actually been in the ocean a few times. I bet the alloys nipples are just fine.
  • 06-07-2013
    006_007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    Shipping extra 8 spokes with a wheel is a sign to me that there is a design flaw.
    When I buy a car I do not expect for it to come with a spare transmission. If it did I would look at a mfg that had their act together.

    Obviously doesnt get it.

    I9 ships 4 spare spokes with each wheelset. This is nice of them, as their spokes typically cost $4-$5 each.

    So If you have a problem and get a derailleur that runs amuk and takes out a spoke or two, you have them readily available, instead of having to order up replacements - because lets face it there is not a chance in hell your local bike shop is going to have your replacement custom colour spoke available in the length that you need.

    And yes, I have had a stick get into a "traditional" spoke before, and it bent it. Much easier to replace those at your LBS.
  • 06-07-2013
    meltingfeather
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Adroit Rider View Post
    The carbon rim came along and no one was smart enough (except my wheel builder and others) to figure out that rim life and overall wheel stability was increased by brass nipples.

    I would say this is the exception rather than the rule. There are hundreds of thousands (probably) of carbon rims with aluminum nipples around that do not exhibit the corrosion experienced by a few... even over the long term.
    :thumbsup:
  • 06-07-2013
    meltingfeather
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    I never mention galvanisation anywhere in that post. Alu rim/alu nipple is oxidisation from moisture, it still happens.

    The corrosion you now claim to have been talking about has nothing to do with the couple (alu/alu), so why would you have mentioned that... twice now?
    Just to intentionally confuse the issues... in a thread about galvanic corrosion? You even suggested that the anodized, rather than non-anodized part would corrode.
    I ain't buyin' it, but maybe someone else will.
    :skep:
  • 06-08-2013
    jbent
    Thinking the sky is going to fall on you every time you ride your bike has nothing to do with intelligence it is paranoia. Triple A is peace of mind as is ordering extra spokes. Sending them as a value add is a completely different message. In ten years building experience I can count on one had how many people I have had come back because of a broken spoke. One. CX racer foot through the front wheel. All of my customers are repeat customers because nothing goes wrong. The beauty of a wheel with traditional J-bend spokes is they are nothing unusual and every one has something that will get you through what ever crisis you are in. Gauge really doesnt matter as long as you can pull that hoop straight and under stand that tension reflects differently depending on the wire material and thickness.

    A well built wheel is starts at the component spec. Yes I have built plenty of touring wheels where the user requests extra spokes... back to the peace of mind point. In that decade I have heard feedback once that a rider broke a spoke and it was not any one on a tour.
  • 06-08-2013
    paradigm shifter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    Thinking the sky is going to fall on you every time you ride your bike has nothing to do with intelligence it is paranoia.

    Who has posted anything like that?

    I think that you would see more broken spokes if your clients weren't in MN and if they preferred primitive, technical trails. Sh|t happens more frequently when folks ride more challenging trails.

    Regardless, your claim that I9 ships 8 spokes with a wheel (and that your fabrication is evidence of your imagined "design flaw") was, and continues to be, preposterous. Although it's still funny.
  • 06-08-2013
    jbent
    I have clients in four other countries. I am not a hack and don't see my product come back.
  • 06-08-2013
    AKamp
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    I have clients in four other countries. I am not a hack and don't see my product come back.

    I have to agree with you about breaking spokes. They just don't happen all that often, at least not with stainless spokes. Now I was riding with a guy with some I9 wheels the other day and he said he has broken 5 in the past year which may explain why they ship with extras. KNow before anyone go and tells me that he probably rides harder than me let's just say that's not the case.
  • 06-08-2013
    Fix the Spade
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    The corrosion you now claim to have been talking about has nothing to do with the couple (alu/alu), so why would you have mentioned that... twice now?
    Just to intentionally confuse the issues... in a thread about galvanic corrosion? You even suggested that the anodized, rather than non-anodized part would corrode.
    I ain't buyin' it, but maybe someone else will.
    :skep:

    You know, you could have pointed out that I wrote rim where I meant nipple, that was very brainless of me.

    The dude was being flippant and saying that all alu nipples must fail because Enve's did, ignoring that Enve's were raw alloy. I replied that if they weren't anodised they totally would.

    So what if it's not acting as an anode but instead being attacked by whatever is dissolved in the things you're riding through (unless you only ever ride through puddles of pure distilled water?), you still end up with corrosion.

    You don't have to buy it either, it's free.
  • 06-09-2013
    DrDon
    I had I9 wheels. Even with the rebuild with brass nipples, my ENVEs have been the most reliable wheels I have ever had. The I9s were very nice, but if a rock or a stick came in contact with the spokes and left a scratch, I knew there may be a potential failure. If the I9 spoke did fall, it was a challenge to make it back to the trail head before the wheel became so out of true it was unrideable.
  • 06-09-2013
    car bone
    Alu corrodes quite fast actually. This can be tested by putting some tap water in alu cookingware and voila, about a week later you start to see pitting. I had lots of alu cookingware before (and teflon crap) but now I only use stainless steel or cast iron, cast iron kicks ass. I just don't think eating alu is very healthy, nor teflon for that matter.
  • 06-10-2013
    meltingfeather
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    You know, you could have pointed out that I wrote rim where I meant nipple, that was very brainless of me.

    Ah well, it happens. I didn't know what you meant.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    The dude was being flippant and saying that all alu nipples must fail because Enve's did, ignoring that Enve's were raw alloy. I replied that if they weren't anodised they totally would.

    You're right.
    Great word.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    So what if it's not acting as an anode but instead being attacked by whatever is dissolved in the things you're riding through (unless you only ever ride through puddles of pure distilled water?), you still end up with corrosion.

    That is definitely possible, in which case the carbon has nothing to do with it. It would not be the first or last time that an issue was misdiagnosed by mtbr armchair scientists (ozzy's thread on his ENVE issue).

    Pure distilled water is corrosive. ;)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    You don't have to buy it either, it's free.

    What a deal! :thumbsup:
  • 07-19-2013
    max_croft
    As someone who bought Enve AM 29 wheels October last year .... F**K.

    Looks like I'm going to need to order more Enve branded gorilla tape just to inspect my wheels. Not to mention the nightmare of mounting Racing Ralphs again ... noooooooo!
  • 07-19-2013
    ozzybmx
    My wheels started making a noise as if something was stuck inside the nipple chamber (under the tubeless tape in the void where the nipples are), turns out there was.... but not the dirt or whatever I though it was. The shards of alu had picked up some of the glue on sticky side of the gorilla tape and turned themselves into little alu sticky balls. These can be heard when turning your wheel slowly.
  • 07-19-2013
    k2rider1964
    Just found this thread today. I bought Enve's last Fall and made it less than (6) months before I had (2) of the exact same nipple issues/failures. When I took the wheel to get serviced, teh tech said 1/2 my nipples were heading in the same direction. He re-built the wheel with brass nipples and all my issues have gone away.

    FWIW and this is not an opinion shared by many on the board but my Easton Haven's have been teh best wheelset I've ever owned. I did have a hub issue but Easton replaced the entire wheel for free so I can't complain. That being said, I wish I could build their wheels with CK or DT 240's.
  • 09-05-2013
    Vegard
    Enve now uses brass nipples, or at least P321 are on their Enve sets.
  • 09-05-2013
    TANK01
    Exactly the same thing happen to me last week! Did you rebuild your wheels with different nipples?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    My wheels started making a noise as if something was stuck inside the nipple chamber (under the tubeless tape in the void where the nipples are), turns out there was.... but not the dirt or whatever I though it was. The shards of alu had picked up some of the glue on sticky side of the gorilla tape and turned themselves into little alu sticky balls. These can be heard when turning your wheel slowly.

  • 09-05-2013
    customfab
    I've ordered 3 different rims from Enve direct in the last month, all three showed up with brass nipples. Seems they have settled on this being the appropriate solution and have dealt with it. I would be surprised if they didn't offer to rebuild any factory built wheels with corrosion issues. In my market it's been rare, but apparently not uncommon elsewhere.
  • 09-07-2013
    car bone
    And now the 64 cent question; why buy ultra light rims when you have to use the heaviest nipples available? The nipples are at the periphery so if weight really matters its most damaging there.
  • 09-07-2013
    TANK01
    Anyone know a source for titanium nipples?
  • 09-07-2013
    David C
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    FYI, DT silver alloy nipples aren't anodized. At least they doesn't seem to as they cost $0.10 each while color anodized ones are $0.30 each. And that's what I've been told too.
  • 09-07-2013
    meltingfeather
    ENVE wheel nipple corrosion.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    And now the 64 cent question; why buy ultra light rims when you have to use the heaviest nipples available? The nipples are at the periphery so if weight really matters its most damaging there.

    Most people aren't buying ENVE rims for weight alone, which dovetails in with the next point: ENVE rims aren't really "ultralight."
    Also, bringing up an armchair physics argument is one thing. Do you have any idea of the actual (quantitativ) effect of using brass vs alloy nipples?
  • 09-07-2013
    customfab
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TANK01 View Post
    Anyone know a source for titanium nipples?

    I believe Pillar makes some but I've never seen them first hand. Fairwheel bikes would be the place to call about them in the US though.
  • 09-07-2013
    car bone
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Most people aren't buying ENVE rims for weight alone, which dovetails in with the next point: ENVE rims aren't really "ultralight."
    Also, bringing up an armchair physics argument is one thing. Do you have any idea of the actual (quantitativ) effect of using brass vs alloy nipples?

    Yeah kinda, as close to nothing as possible.

    But hey I aint the one buying rims for lightness. My last rim purchase was dt ex500 and 400. Bought an ex600 and another 500 for the winter. For my commuter.. And the hubs are true precision, thats about 700g in hubs alone. I don't really care what shit weighs, I just buy what I deem the best suited.
  • 09-07-2013
    Fix the Spade
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    And now the 64 cent question; why buy ultra light rims when you have to use the heaviest nipples available? The nipples are at the periphery so if weight really matters its most damaging there.

    Because the weight difference is bugger all and brass nipples are stronger and more reliable?

    Fifty grams per wheelset or a rebuild every six months...
  • 09-07-2013
    doccoraje
    Is there any trouble with other brands besides Enve, say DT, Reynolds or .....
  • 09-07-2013
    bholwell
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by doccoraje View Post
    Is there any trouble with other brands besides Enve, say DT, Reynolds or .....

    The issue isn't with the rim, it's with the internal Al nipples. Why they aren't anodized, I haven't the foggiest...

    Most other carbon rims on the market are designed to utilize traditional nipples.
  • 09-08-2013
    ozzybmx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    And now the 64 cent question; why buy ultra light rims when you have to use the heaviest nipples available? The nipples are at the periphery so if weight really matters its most damaging there.

    The "special" lightweight ENVE brass internal nipples are not like regular brass DT's, I would say they are approx the same weight or very close to regular alloy nipples, will take a picture of them and post it up later.