Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 78
  1. #1
    I like rigid MTB.
    Reputation: edle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    148

    New question here. Chris King or Industry 9 hubs ?????

    I have $$$ for one wheelset only.
    What should I use ? Chris King or I9 hubs ? Why ?

    Thanks.....

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bike Whisperer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,872
    Though it doesn't show the I9, this video does show the key differences between Pawl and Ratchet hubs like the I9 and The Chris King design which IMO is the best made.

    How Things Work: The Freehub Body – Dirt
    Former bicycle mechanic for 8 years, current soil scientist.

    Blog

  3. #3
    I'm in...
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    269
    I have both. King ALL The way!

  4. #4
    Plays with tools
    Reputation: customfab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    4,207
    Neither, DT.

  5. #5
    Trail Ninja
    Reputation: Varaxis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    2,722
    I got a garage full of high end performance wheels. Easton Haven carbon, Enve King, i9 Enduro, and various DT wheels, and various other mid-range stuff from WTB, Stan's, Bontrager, etc. With all my experience on 'em, I'd say Enve XC/AM + DT 190/240s + Sapim CX Ray (or DT Aerolite) spokes would make one of the finest all around wheelsets. 1500-1600g, rolls fast and low drag when coasting, strong and reliable, very low maintenance and easy to "fix", with comfortable ride feel and precise tracking.

    Here's my take on the rear hubs:

    King puts their bearings on the very outside edge of the hub shell, and their drive mech on the inside. Wider spaced bearings carry heavy loads better. The freehub shell has a long extension with special helical spine on it, which meshes with one of the drive rings, which then connects with the drive ring. Since the drive rings are inside, they're bigger in diameter and allow for larger teeth design with a more solid engagement--being inside the hollow part of the hubshell gives it its unique hollow buzz sound. It can fail though, since the freehub shell is soft alloy and the drive rings are steel--the helical spines can notch and possibly strip. Mine notched and slipped and sort of caused a miss-meshing or something, that turned my King hub into a fixie. King uses their in-house bearings, which I believe have a focus on high load bearing and sealing, rather than fast spinning. It has some sort of metal circlip holding a shield on it, which can be removed and allow access to the bearings to be serviced. King hubs tend to be heavy and slow rolling, compared to others, but precision made parts, user serviceability and long life due to regular maintenance are its main appeal. Axle conversion kits, spare parts and special tools are relatively expensive. Lots of different anodized colors available. Their company is run very responsibly.

    i9s drive rings and pawls are made with super hard tool grade steel, some of the hardest steel and also hardest to work. They use some sort of special method to cut their micro sized teeth, using a very expensive machine. It allowed them to get 120 points of engagement, only beat by Kappius hubs. They use traditional design, with the main load -bearing driveside bearing just inside the freewheel mechanism. Their bearings are standard cartride bearings require no maintenance. Just knock 'em out and press in new bearings from Enduro or SKF or whatever and roll on. The stock bearings roll faster than King hubs and I haven't touched mine for the couple years I've been rolling on 'em. The freewheel mech is a little draggy, but of course that only matters if you're coasting and not pedaling. Lots of costly advanced high tech machinery making nice things happen here.

    I love DT hubs. They are reasonably light and roll very fast, especially compared to King hubs. Speed is fun. Super simple and easy to work with. I miss the engagement from i9 and CK, but if I wanted one set to race on and also train on, DT would be choice over i9 and CK, though I believe there are better hubs for race purposes out there. Reliable. Lace 'em up, throw 'em on your bike, and ride 'em to the ground. The higher engagement upgrade doesn't get as close to CK or I9, and definitely isn't as durable as i9, in fact their durability is what makes it an option rather than standard, but it's not very expensive compared to the others here. Simple methods that worked for ages, forging that has been refined over time, with precision for tight tolerances to make parts that press together with perfect fits. DT seems to know wheels really well and their high end offerings seem to offer a great balance of features that seems to be perfect for the type that wants it all, but is able to appreciate more things than just weight, engagement, or other fancy marketable stuff. As sensible people know, forging tends to make better parts than parts that are fully CNCed from raw material and anodized a multitude of colors.

    Front hubs from CK/i9? Nothing special about them. There are differences between all sorts of front hubs: bearings, flange width, height, weight, convertibility, part of a proprietary wheel system, lacing pattern, straight pull, etc. Might as well go Lefty, just so you avoid paying premiums just for matching hubs.

    I play with a lot of top end wheels, besides the one I currently own. Some generalizations I can make: I highly recommend carbon rims. Enve rims > Easton Haven > Reynolds/SRAM > Roval > Chinese/Alloy. I don't totally dismiss alloy wheels though. I kind of prefer pre-built wheels, but I don't break many spoke due to being a lightweight. I find DT Tricons to be nicer than my i9 Enduros for perceived stiffness and durability, with added speed--one of the nicest pre-builts I've been on, with weight being the only downside. The Syntace pre-built wheels look really nice if you wanna hop onto the wide rim bandwagon, hopefully not pairing them up with narrower tires. Would love to check out Extralite Hyper hubs and more exotic hubs, but not much return for extra cash paid there.

  6. #6
    I like rigid MTB.
    Reputation: edle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    148
    Thanks for the valuable inputs.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    23
    It took my buddy with I9's like 5 weeks to get a few replacement spokes from them when he busted a couple. I had an axle issue with my CK's and had the part by the next weekend. Customer service makes all the difference for me.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    506
    The only issue I can come up with for CK hubs is the (current) lack of XX1 support. If you don't plan on using that group, I don't think you can do better.

    With that said, the new I9 "Torch" hubs look like they solve most of the small issues present with the previous design so that is definitely a strong contender.

    Good luck with whatever you choose!

  9. #9
    Trail Ninja
    Reputation: Varaxis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    2,722
    When I "busted" my CK hub, I called them intending to warranty. Told them what was up and how it happened and they weren't sure and acted like it was the first time it happened. They directed me to their detailed online manuals and had me look inside the hub. It was super simple. My bad for not really cracking open the hub to do maintenance. Put it back together after following basic service routine and no more problems, though I did notice the notching on the spline (both the drive ring side and cassette side)... well, that's my experience with CK CS. They did say that I could replace it with new freehub shell, but at $120 or so, I decided to ride until the freehub shell gave me problems again and avoid that stupidly steep climb. I've tried that climb on other hubs without probs.

    When I was looking for a 142x12 axle for my rear CK hub, it took me over 2 weeks to get one. I called up CK one week and they said the would have them in stock on Friday. I then checked all the online sites (ex. Aspire, Universal Cycles, etc.) and even LBS, and couldn't find one. I put an order with CK and called next week and they said, not yet in stock, but will be on Friday. Called up again, and they found my story odd and that they'd get it expedited. Early in the week after, it arrived here in SoCal. Came with minimal packaging as expected, a thin little plastic zip baggy with a label stuck on it, inside a bubble mailer I think.

    They're probably in so much demand that they're unable to keep up with supply. I recall i9 saying their demand outstrips supply too, with spoke production being their bottleneck.

    Someone almost got a hot deal on a new and "historic" i9 carbon 29er XC wheelset on eBay, if not for a reserve option. New Industry Nine Reynolds Carbon 29er XC Hubs Wheelset 2012 US Made | eBay

    I must emphasize what I said earlier that the hub is not that nice of a place to spend money. The rest of the wheel is important too. If you're on a 29er, a quality rim should be a higher priority.

    The hub debate will go on endlessly. People will say CK is like old fashioned US made stuff, solid, well-built, made to last, and good for mechanics. People will find i9's US made and uniquely high quality advanced fabrication methods highly appealing. If you're going to mill metal, why settle for a shape that forging can match? DT rep is legendary and goes far back. Makes me wonder if these guys bring up the topic on purpose, as the more you talk about them, the better they all seem. Doesn't really help with indecisiveness.

    Throw in Hadley and Kappius, Extralite (Tune and all the other exotic brands)... can't really say anything bad about them besides price. They're all pretty well designed. When brands compete with better designs, you win. If you buy are and happy with them, they may just settle for that status quo, like CK seemingly has. CK honestly has unique differences that can be marketed, like their super high quality expensive ball bearings, their made-in-house specific for the task at hand, angular contact bearings (most others use radial), precision side load adjusting caps, etc. I would say that precision and craftsmanship is hard to mass produce, but DT seems to have found a balance between that precision and craftsmanship and mass production to please me.

    i9 Torch hubs solving small issues? Maybe small issues in i9s eyes, wanting to improve their hubs. They are still offering their older hubs, as they are solid performers compared to the competition. This is just a newer design that's the result of R&D, pushing for more performance, and tapping the potential they have with such machinery they have available to them. It's more refined, and relatively innovative. At least, that's my perspective on it.

    I'd say DT is close to what I define as perfection. I consider perfection as a state where you can't take any more away, yet does its intended task efficiently without fault. For DT to "innovate" and improve, it seems that they basically had to offer new lines, such as the Spline line and Tricon, and improve their rims, nipples, and complete wheelsets. The difference between DT's 240s and 190 is minor... very slight weight savings due to being less modular and with a carbon hubshell and ceramic bearings instead of steel, for a whole lot more money. Fewer color options too . It's like how Cannondale uses integration for weight savings and simplicity, at cost of customization. Seen some custom carbon bar and stem combo recently... anyways, 240s is pretty close to a perfection in my eyes. If you ask what I consider a masterpiece, it would need to think of something creative, thoughtful, thought-provoking, with great attention to detail, and artfully done--basically the exact opposite of perfection, and definitely not a 240s hub. Rohloff maybe a candidate for masterpiece? What about that CVT hub?
    Last edited by Varaxis; 02-23-2013 at 04:58 PM.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    506
    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    i9 Torch hubs solving small issues? Maybe small issues in i9s eyes, wanting to improve their hubs. They are still offering their older hubs, as they are solid performers compared to the competition. This is just a newer design that's the result of R&D, pushing for more performance, and tapping the potential they have with such machinery they have available to them. It's more refined, and relatively innovative. At least, that's my perspective on it.
    Only i9 complaints I've ever heard were with regard to drag and durability.

    From someone who has ridden both in an i9 Torch thread:

    "Performance-wise, they are similar. That said, the improvements in the bearing arrangement, pawl springs, tool-free maintenance, pawl design, no more bearing preload dust cap/set screw, reduced drag...

    There's a lot going on to appreciate that doesn't necessarily affect the ride quality one way or the other, but are certainly improvements from the old design."

  11. #11
    Trail Ninja
    Reputation: Varaxis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    2,722
    Ah, the drag. I need to take a look inside and see what they did. I think it's safe to look cause I don't have enough cash nor good reason to buy a new Torch wheelset, cause I recently got the Haven Carbons, and I'd feel that they might entice me.

    My first impression is that it's like asking them to mix the best parts of DT with best parts of i9, and ending up with Torch. Slightly heavier (than DT), with more features such as 20mm front compatibility, and gotta go with the i9 spokes. I wanna see what they mean by bearing arrangement and the new drivesystem. Maybe find a pic with the freehub body pulled off, and maybe the axle too.
    Last edited by Varaxis; 02-23-2013 at 10:49 PM.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Salespunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    2,573
    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    II highly recommend carbon rims. Enve rims > Easton Haven > Reynolds/SRAM > Roval > Chinese/Alloy.
    I am curious why you like the Enve's better than the Easton? Is there something specific?

  13. #13
    Trail Ninja
    Reputation: Varaxis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    2,722
    Ride feel. It's like trying to tell someone the difference between a Yeti frame and Santa Cruz frame, without talking about the suspension. Or a steel, ti, carbon frame vs alloy. Or maybe the difference between an Enve carbon handlebar and a RaceFace SixC handlebar. Really hard to explain in exact words, but Enve really makes the ride feel smooth and comfortable, while being precise. Kind of makes riding things easier, which may or may not be more fun, depending on how much challenge you want. The comfort leads to better control and confidence, basically.

    Those that actually like a lot of feedback might feel a disconnect though. I know I was a little baffled why I thought Flows felt stiffer at one point in time--it was actually the amount of feedback I was noticing a big difference in. Stiffness does not necessarily need to mean bone jarring, basically. Feedback can both positively and negativity affect how you ride, depending on how you react to it. If you are actively feeling for certain feedback to act on it, you might miss it. If you think feedback is like noise, you won't miss it. There's no lack in responsiveness, just feedback. Some people say they don't want the trail smoothed out for 'em, but if you're deathgripping your bars in the braking bumps, that smoothness really is a relief.

    Haven't ridden much on the Havens yet, but I've rim striked hard enough to check, fussing with tubeless and pressure, and I'm thoroughly impressed with its durability. They spin fast, but like other things that spin fast (Token BBs and Mavic hubs), I worry about longevity in the bearings. Maybe they're using some really light grease. The rims are impressive enough to give me confidence to say they're up there with Enve. They just don't have that nice ride feel in them.

    Thinking about doing Haven front and CK Enve rear on a HT and see how that goes. And maybe CK front and Haven rear on the FS bike, to get the most out of the wheels' characteristics and better match my riding style.
    Last edited by Varaxis; 02-23-2013 at 07:53 PM.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bike Whisperer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,872
    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Ah, the drag. I need to take a look inside and see what they did. I think it's safe to look cause I don't have enough cash nor good reason to buy a new Torch wheelset, cause I recently got the Haven Carbons, and I'd feel that they might entice me.

    My first impression is that it's like asking them to mix the best parts of DT with best parts of i9, and ending up with Torch. Slightly heavier, with more features such as 20mm front compatibility, and gotta go with the i9 spokes. I wanna see what they mean by bearing arrangement and the new drivesystem. Maybe find a pic with the freehub body pulled off, and maybe the axle too.
    I9 Torch uses the same 3 x 3 pawl system with a 60 tooth ratchet for a 120 poe engagement. The rest of the hub has been significantly changed but the drive system is the same.
    Former bicycle mechanic for 8 years, current soil scientist.

    Blog

  15. #15
    I like rigid MTB.
    Reputation: edle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    148
    What about Phil Wood and White Industries hubs ?
    Are they in the same league with the I9/CK/DT Swiss ?

  16. #16
    Single Speed Junkie
    Reputation: crux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,106
    Quote Originally Posted by edle View Post
    What about Phil Wood and White Industries hubs ?
    Are they in the same league with the I9/CK/DT Swiss ?
    Some what. Both Phil Wood & W.I. make really nice hubs. The difference is the hubs are going to use a freewheel where as the I9 & king are going to use cogs. Having built up several high end wheels for my money I9 is the way to go. The drag is reduced with the newer hub design or if you are so inclined update the large bearing over to ceramic and it will reduce drag as well.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bike Whisperer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,872
    Quote Originally Posted by crux View Post
    Some what. Both Phil Wood & W.I. make really nice hubs. The difference is the hubs are going to use a freewheel where as the I9 & king are going to use cogs.
    On single speed hubs...

    On multi-speed hubs both Phil Wood and White Industries hubs use freehub bodies. They are very solid US made hubs and easy to service but if you're looking for high POE hubs, these are not the best choice.
    Former bicycle mechanic for 8 years, current soil scientist.

    Blog

  18. #18
    Poacher
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,490
    I ordered my Chris King S.S. rear hub with Stainless driveshell, instead of Aluminum. Maybe this is only an option for ss? Any more input about White Industries? I Have always wanted to try WI hubs.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mazspeed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    952
    I have ridden all 3 hubs to the death. All of them are great hubs. You won't go wrong with I9-CK or DS. If I was building the ultimate wheel I would start with I9 with King being a very close second. I enjoy the engagement and rebuild ability of both I9 and CK. You do need a special tool with I9 but their parts are becoming more available as time goes on. CK is everywhere which makes it really nice. DS is a fabulous hub, but doesn't have the engagement, and if you're building a high dollar wheel, you have to start with either I9 or CK. I would even toss Hadley in the mix. That hub is stout, strong, but a touch heavier than the rest, but it's also cheaper. The drag factor on I9 and King goes away when it's broken in, and it does take a while to break in, but that's a good thing. I have 1 CK wheel set and 1 I9 wheel set and looking for another CC I9 wheel set. You will not be disappointed in either hub.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bike Whisperer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,872
    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie View Post
    I ordered my Chris King S.S. rear hub with Stainless driveshell, instead of Aluminum. Maybe this is only an option for ss? Any more input about White Industries? I Have always wanted to try WI hubs.
    Single speed WI is a freewheel hub, but they also make really nice freewheels including their 72 poe trails versions.

    Multi-speed WI is a 3 pawl, 24 poe hub with either a very durable cro-mo freehub body or a lighter but still more durable than aluminum Ti freehub body. They are solid. But the lower POE and only two color options (black and polished) makes them less popular than others.
    Former bicycle mechanic for 8 years, current soil scientist.

    Blog

  21. #21
    Category Winner
    Reputation: teamdicky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,660
    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Whisperer View Post
    I9 Torch uses the same 3 x 3 pawl system with a 60 tooth ratchet for a 120 poe engagement. The rest of the hub has been significantly changed but the drive system is the same.
    Sorta.

    The pawl geometry/springs are all new. Still six of them, still three engaged at one time, still 3 engagement.

    I have not torn into mine to look, but Jake at I9 gave me a rundown on all the features.

    You can sorta see the new springs in the drawing below:

    WWW.TEAMDICKY.COM

    I get paid 3 every time I post on MTBR.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    104
    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Neither, DT.
    Ditto.

  23. #23
    Category Winner
    Reputation: teamdicky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,660
    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky View Post
    Sorta.

    The pawl geometry/springs are all new. Still six of them, still three engaged at one time, still 3 engagement.

    I have not torn into mine to look, but Jake at I9 gave me a rundown on all the features.


    I'm swapping the XD driver for a standard cassette body freehub.

    Since I had the thing out of the hub, I figured I'd give you a look inside.

    You can see a bunch of differences (BTW: the new body comes off WITHOUT tools).



    Previous design:

    WWW.TEAMDICKY.COM

    I get paid 3 every time I post on MTBR.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bike Whisperer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,872
    New one looks less burly...sacrificing strength for less drag and lower weight?
    Former bicycle mechanic for 8 years, current soil scientist.

    Blog

  25. #25
    Category Winner
    Reputation: teamdicky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,660
    The big bearing was the major cause of drag... eliminated.

    The springs were prone to damage, especially during rebuilds if hamfistedly done (I did it once... oops).

    Fewer small parts.

    Easier to maintain. Just pop it off, clean it up, and stick it back on. No tools.

    I remember something about the angle of engagement on the pawls...

    Reduced the points of contact on pawls from three to two.

    Certainly not less burly, past the looks of it.
    WWW.TEAMDICKY.COM

    I get paid 3 every time I post on MTBR.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •