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  1. #1
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    Can an out of true rim cause rotor alignment issues?

    I received a replacement rotor (front wheel) from Avid as it appeared to be warped. I put the new rotor on, which is mounted on an aftermarket set of Stan's Crest ZTR rims/hubs w/ the stock Avid Elixir 3's, and it also appeared warped. I tried adjusting it to no end, and couldn't get it in any position that it wouldn't rub on the pads.

    For an experiment, I put the rotor on the stock front wheel and it runs nearly true and the caliper has no rub on the pads.

    What is going on here? Is the wheel out of true somehow (or is it the hub) that would cause this? Thanks for any insight.

  2. #2
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    Sounds like the hub is warped. The rim being out of true would not directly affect the rotor. However, if the rim is damaged from a wreck, it is possible the hub was also damaged or bent at the same time. Not the end of the world though. As long as there are no cracks, it is alright.

    I would have the wheel spokes tensioned and the rim trued first. Then remount the rotor. Recheck for true. You may have to true the rotor after it is mounted to compensate for the hub. There are tools for this, and some people do it with an adjustable wrench. You should be fine if you can get it relatively true.

  3. #3
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    Nothing to do with the RIM, your HUB flange needs to be faced, it is obviously not square. Check and see if your local shop has the tool, if not it's not cheap sadly, HOPE makes one, but about $150 IIRC.
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  4. #4
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    Thanks for the info. LBS said no such tool exists. I'm asking Stan's directly...

  5. #5
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    Another thought on this...Did you realign the caliper when you swapped wheels? If you didn't it could just be as simple as your old stock hub being slightly narrower or wider than the Stans and you need to realign the caliper to the new hubs. Hardly any rotors come 100% true, but they definitely shouldn't have a seriously noticeable wobble when new. Try installing the Stans wheels again and centering the caliper or have the shop do it.

    Sorry, was thinking of the one for doing the fork tabs when IS was the standard.
    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    Thanks for the info. LBS said no such tool exists. I'm asking Stan's directly...
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  6. #6
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    true the rotor.
    i'm a tool-head so i use one of these:


    a well-cleaned crescent wrench will also work.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    true the rotor.
    i'm a tool-head so i use one of these:


    a well-cleaned crescent wrench will also work.
    Or a crescent wrench and a clean rag
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  8. #8
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    It could be a bent or broken axle as well.

  9. #9
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    Mark the rotor in relation to the hub or rim. Notice and mark hi or lo point on rotor. Remount rotor 180 deg. If hi or lo mark followed the rotor, its a bent rotor. If mark stayed with the rim, its the hub. Easy peasy.
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  10. #10
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    1niceride

    Mark the rotor in relation to the hub or rim. Notice and mark hi or lo point on rotor. Remount rotor 180 deg. If hi or lo mark followed the rotor, its a bent rotor. If mark stayed with the rim, its the hub. Easy peasy.


    Is the new rotor thickness exact same width as old one ? I had this problem and was going crazy trying to figure it out - the supposed replacement was about 1 or 2 mm thicker so I pitched it ......... made a good frisbee !
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcvpr View Post
    It could be a bent or broken axle as well.
    A bent axle can not make a wheel wobble because it does not turn in the dropouts. It can cause alignment issues but that remains the same as the wheel spins.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetimeister514 View Post


    Is the new rotor thickness exact same width as old one ? I had this problem and was going crazy trying to figure it out - the supposed replacement was about 1 or 2 mm thicker so I pitched it ......... made a good frisbee !
    That is a huge variation considering most rotors are 2mm thick.

    The main reason to replace a rotor is it has worn thin. Usually when they have reached 1.6-1.8mm.
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  13. #13
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    shiggy

    That is a huge variation considering most rotors are 2mm thick.
    The main reason to replace a rotor is it has worn thin. Usually when they have reached 1.6-1.8mm.
    Yes, agreed. I forgot the decimal and is more like 0.1 or 0.2 mm.- basically a gnat's a** ! Thanks Shiggy !
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  14. #14
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    Perplexed beyond belief...

    I really appreciate all the ideas, but after my last attempt at a fix, I am really at my wits end...

    I invested $350 on a new set of Shimano SLX brakes (IceTech) w/ the IceTech rotors. And sure enough, the brand new, high end rotor wobbles as well on the ZTR front wheel. I was thinking it also might be a bent skewer (9mm), but after reading above that doesn't sound like the culprit (but I'm going to give it a try tomorrow anyway after a good night sleep just to eliminate that possibility).

    Process of elimination would dictate it has to either be the skewer or a warped hub since the rotor runs true on the stock wheelset. I sent a message to Stan's about it but then never responded.

    Added to this frustration, I can't get the front caliper to center without rubbing!! I was really hoping the Shimano's would mount up trouble free after all the positive reviews I read about them before buying. I know hydros have a better feel and look way better than mech brakes, but damn I don't have these issues with simple mech's like BB7's.


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    I really appreciate all the ideas, but after my last attempt at a fix, I am really at my wits end...

    I invested $350 on a new set of Shimano SLX brakes (IceTech) w/ the IceTech rotors. And sure enough, the brand new, high end rotor wobbles as well on the ZTR front wheel. I was thinking it also might be a bent skewer (9mm), but after reading above that doesn't sound like the culprit (but I'm going to give it a try tomorrow anyway after a good night sleep just to eliminate that possibility).

    Process of elimination would dictate it has to either be the skewer or a warped hub since the rotor runs true on the stock wheelset. I sent a message to Stan's about it but then never responded.

    Added to this frustration, I can't get the front caliper to center without rubbing!! I was really hoping the Shimano's would mount up trouble free after all the positive reviews I read about them before buying. I know hydros have a better feel and look way better than mech brakes, but damn I don't have these issues with simple mech's like BB7's.

    Centering disc brake calipers can be a form of art, especially if the brake you are trying to adjust has cps washers(yes i realize that Shimano doesn't have cps). Its not just you, many others had trouble with adjusting disc brakes.

    It may be time to take the hit to your pride and take it to the pro's.

    EDIT:

    It could even be a problem with the brakes them-selfs... On some avid brakes, I have seen them come with too much fluid in them from the factory, or some other sort of problem many times... In short causing the gap between the rotor and the pads to be too small for proper adjustment. H*ll the mounts on your frame or fork could have been machined at an angle causing the caliper to sit at an angle (in which case they would need to be faced with a special tool).
    Last edited by kcvpr; 01-03-2013 at 01:21 AM.

  16. #16
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    If Stans isn't going to give you any help (try calling as well before you give up) then I'd honestly deal with it yourself.....Very carefully spin the wheel with rotor on and note the place where it runs out, then note the corresponding location on the hub to the nearest hole, then with care very lightly remove material using a file.

    Another way you can check if this would help/work would be to first buy some very thin shims and do the same but instead of filing, add the shims to all the other holes where the run out isn't - shims are available in various thicknesses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    I really appreciate all the ideas, but after my last attempt at a fix, I am really at my wits end...

    I invested $350 on a new set of Shimano SLX brakes (IceTech) w/ the IceTech rotors. And sure enough, the brand new, high end rotor wobbles as well on the ZTR front wheel. I was thinking it also might be a bent skewer (9mm), but after reading above that doesn't sound like the culprit (but I'm going to give it a try tomorrow anyway after a good night sleep just to eliminate that possibility).

    Process of elimination would dictate it has to either be the skewer or a warped hub since the rotor runs true on the stock wheelset. I sent a message to Stan's about it but then never responded.

    Added to this frustration, I can't get the front caliper to center without rubbing!! I was really hoping the Shimano's would mount up trouble free after all the positive reviews I read about them before buying. I know hydros have a better feel and look way better than mech brakes, but damn I don't have these issues with simple mech's like BB7's.

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  17. #17
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    this may be a shot in the dark, but are you using a torque wrench to tighten the rotor bolts? (assuming you are using a 6 bolt design).

    If not, you may be tightening one bolt more than the others, which could be causing your 'warping'. as you switch the rotors between hubs, you may feel like you are chasing a warp that isn't really there.

    I would recommend torquing the bolts, and then trying to true the rotor in a truing stand using a machinist's dial. If that doesn't fix it, then I'm guessing your hub is somehow warped.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    I really appreciate all the ideas, but after my last attempt at a fix, I am really at my wits end...

    [...]

    Why did you decide not to true the rotor and be done with it?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  19. #19
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    Uncle!

    Yep, using a torque wrench for sure. I tried a brand new skewer and that wasn't it. It's some issue with the hub flanges or bearings or both. Definitely a bummer as the Crest ZTR wheelset is 2lbs lighter than the stock wheelset.

    I give up and am heading to the bike medic tomorrow with both front wheels in hand...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    Yep, using a torque wrench for sure. I tried a brand new skewer and that wasn't it. It's some issue with the hub flanges or bearings or both. Definitely a bummer as the Crest ZTR wheelset is 2lbs lighter than the stock wheelset.

    I give up and am heading to the bike medic tomorrow with both front wheels in hand...
    Hate to sound like a broken record, but why are you ignoring the relatively easy out of truing the rotor? It takes 5 minutes and you'd be done.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  21. #21
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    MeltingFeather - you probably just missed it in a previous post, but I tried the stock front wheel and when using it, the rotor runs true...

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    MeltingFeather - you probably just missed it in a previous post, but I tried the stock front wheel and when using it, the rotor runs true...
    I saw that. Just true the rotor on the new wheel. Done.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  23. #23
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    AK, did you use the same rotor on both the old and new wheel? Didn't see you mention that, just would assume you would have to keep the variables to a minimum. If you did, then def you've got something going on with the hub, but if by chance you just used the rotor that was already on the stock wheel, put the one off the new wheel on there and see if you still get no rub - If there's no issue setting it up then you know the hub is def your culprit, if there's rub, then maybe your new rotor isn't 100% true..
    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    MeltingFeather - you probably just missed it in a previous post, but I tried the stock front wheel and when using it, the rotor runs true...
    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    I saw that. Just true the rotor on the new wheel. Done.
    Last edited by LyNx; 01-04-2013 at 04:48 AM.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    AK, did you use the same rotor on both the old and new wheel? Didn't see you mention that, just would assume you would have to keep the variables to a minimum. If you did, then def you've got something going on with the hub, but if by chance you just used the rotor that was already on the stock wheel, put the one off the new wheel on there and see if you still get no rub - If there's no issue setting it up then you know the hub is def your culprit, if there's rub, then maybe your new rotor isn't 100% true..
    Whether or not the hub is the culprit he can correct the issue, move on, and start riding the bike by simply truing the installed rotor on the new wheel. If I install a new rotor on a hub and it wobbles, I don't spend a ton of time and money trying to figure out what the problem is. I true the rotor in 5 minutes and go ride.

    Somehow I don't think the message is coming across.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    AK, did you use the same rotor on both the old and new wheel? If you did, then def you've got something going on with the hub[/I]
    Yes I did. Using the same brand new, Shimano rotor, I got the following. ZTR wheel = warped rotor. Stock wheel = true rotor.

    In fact, when I was still trying to use the crap Avid brakes, the LBS said the rotor was warped and have Avid warranty it. When I put the new Avid rotor on the ZTR and stock wheels, same results as above. I'm off to the bike medic now to sort this all out.

  26. #26
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    Sorry, I hear what you're saying, but that's a band aid instead of a proper fix and that's something I only do in a pinch, maybe out on the trail or just before a ride when the proper solution can't be done. No way I have a new wheelset, with maybe hub issues like he does and I true an already true rotor

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Whether or not the hub is the culprit he can correct the issue, move on, and start riding the bike by simply truing the installed rotor on the new wheel. If I install a new rotor on a hub and it wobbles, I don't spend a ton of time and money trying to figure out what the problem is. I true the rotor in 5 minutes and go ride.

    Somehow I don't think the message is coming across.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Whether or not the hub is the culprit he can correct the issue, move on, and start riding the bike by simply truing the installed rotor on the new wheel. If I install a new rotor on a hub and it wobbles, I don't spend a ton of time and money trying to figure out what the problem is. I true the rotor in 5 minutes and go ride.

    Somehow I don't think the message is coming across.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    No way I have a new wheelset, with maybe hub issues like he does and I true an already true rotor
    Taking a file to a brand new machined and anodized aluminum hub shell to "fix" an issue that can be corrected easily and quickly isn't my first choice.
    Different strokes, I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Taking a file to a brand new machined and anodized aluminum hub shell to "fix" an issue that can be corrected easily and quickly isn't my first choice.
    Different strokes, I guess.
    Kinda like reaming out a seat tube to fix a tight seatpost instead of sanding the post a little...

  30. #30
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    Plus for all we know, it could just need to be adjusted better. This is like trying to figure out what color someone's eyes are while talking over the phone and they happen to be color blind.

  31. #31
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    All you guys amaze me, honestly The guy is doing the right thing and taking the wheels to the shop to see if they can help him figure out the problem and get it fixed PROPERLY, not some half assed excuse of a fix.

    Uh, no, something with the hub is off, either the bearings aren't properly seated, the recess for the bearings isn't reemed properly or the disc rotor flange isn't square, either way, the hub is not finished properly and should be, that IS the correct way to go about something, not some half assed "fix".
    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Taking a file to a brand new machined and anodized aluminum hub shell to "fix" an issue that can be corrected easily and quickly isn't my first choice.
    Different strokes, I guess.
    If a seattube is not to spec, then YES you ream it out, you don't sand a fvcking post to weaken it
    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Smedley View Post
    Kinda like reaming out a seat tube to fix a tight seatpost instead of sanding the post a little...
    Who'd be dumb enough to try to guess someones eye colour over the phone with a colour blind person
    Quote Originally Posted by kcvpr View Post
    Plus for all we know, it could just need to be adjusted better. This is like trying to figure out what color someone's eyes are while talking over the phone and they happen to be color blind.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    All you guys amaze me, honestly The guy is doing the right thing and taking the wheels to the shop to see if they can help him figure out the problem and get it fixed PROPERLY, not some half assed excuse of a fix.

    Uh, no, something with the hub is off, either the bearings aren't properly seated, the recess for the bearings isn't reemed properly or the disc rotor flange isn't square, either way, the hub is not finished properly and should be, that IS the correct way to go about something, not some half assed "fix".
    I'll bet you the shop trues the rotor. No bike shop is tooled to face rotor mounts.
    Truing is not "half-assed," that's just your unproductive inflammatory opinion.
    Any shop employee that has half a brain is not going to file that hub. The other remedy if the hub is out of spec is to warranty it and wait.
    These are bikes, not fighter jets; sometimes you just make it work.
    Truing does not have a down side.

    OP- Let us know how it works out. Good luck.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 01-05-2013 at 07:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  33. #33
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    dp.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    All you guys amaze me, honestly The guy is doing the right thing and taking the wheels to the shop to see if they can help him figure out the problem and get it fixed PROPERLY, not some half assed excuse of a fix.



    If a seattube is not to spec, then YES you ream it out, you don't sand a fvcking post to weaken it

    :
    Your a genius, I never said the frame was out of spec, usually its the seapost given the shear number produced compared to frames. Go ahead and ream the frame to fix the over sized seat post.

  35. #35
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    Sometimes tolerance stacking ends up not in ones favor. It would be nice if a final pass with bearings installed was made on the rotor mounting face of the hub to square things up.
    lean forward

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Who'd be dumb enough to try to guess someones eye colour over the phone with a colour blind person
    It's a metaphor, to describe the futileness of diagnosing mechanical problems with out seeing said mechanical things in person......

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1niceride View Post
    Sometimes tolerance stacking ends up not in ones favor. It would be nice if a final pass with bearings installed was made on the rotor mounting face of the hub to square things up.
    Correct me if I am wrong, if one did this and the oem bearings weren't installed to spec you would be screwed when you go to replace the bearings.

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    Correct. One hopes a manufacture would not screw this stage up.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1niceride View Post
    Correct. One hopes a manufacture would not screw this stage up.
    Hope you are right. LBS said after pulling apart the front hub, nothing was screaming at them in terms of critical wear. The bearings do indeed show wear, but nothing critical. They are ordering new bearings and end caps to determine if this is the issue, and at only $35 for the investment, I'm willing to experiment. I should know in about 1 week.

  40. #40
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    Has anyone ever checked a new stem for squareness and round holes? Or a crooked frame? Wheel with wrong offset? If you are lookin for perfect, good luck. A lot of this stuff is a do it yourself kit.

    Warp the rotor to fit the hub and go riding. You'll change out the hub or wheel only to find the same or worse results. If only it had a batch number..
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  41. #41
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    No way in hell I'm warping a brand new, perfectly good (and not cheap) rotor to make it work. That's like treating the symptoms and not the cause.

    If this doesn't fix the problem, then I'll sell off what I can of the Stan's wheelset and use the Mavic wheelset off my FS bike since I don't really ride it during the wet winter/spring months and be done with it...

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    I will say my 2 Mavic hubs are really straight and true compared to my others. Maybe I shoulda used adjust instead of warp
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  43. #43
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    A lot of times truing a rotor is a standard procedure. They are very rarely straight from the factory. Nor do they stay straight under normal riding. If you do decided to go the easy route and true it, you can always true it back when what ever is going on with the hub get's corrected.

    Have you tried mounting the rotor in different positioning on the hub to see how it affects the problem? Does the wobble in the rotor stay the same relative to the hub? If the end caps and bearings you've ordered don't fix the problem I would just replace the hub. It's not worth trying to machine or file it down. Especially if it's under warranty. FWIW when you get Stans on the phone they are probably going to just suggest that you true the rotor. Like M-feather said, there really isn't a compromise with this solution.

    FWIW, I know the C-dale/CX world team keeps their rotors matted to a specific wheel and keeps them clocked to a specific orientation when they get removed for travel. They do this because even their top end race quality parts still have quirks on setup. On the occasion their system breaks down, they just re-true the rotor to the new position.

  44. #44
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    Curious AK, you haven't mentioned if you've given Stans a call about this, I'd expect these wheels are new and they'd deal with it under warranty or are the wheels 2nd hand? Customs suggestion of rotating the rotor would for sure tell you if it is only the ub or a combination of hub and rotor.

    As to 1niceride, yes, most of my stems come square, but I did buy a couple OEM Cdale stems and they were not, casting had more material on one side of the clamping area than the other, faceplate was alright, so I filled/sanded down the high side to square things up. I've also filed down forks tabs to square them up on an old IS tabbed fork, it's actually something that was done a lot, Hope has a sweet tool for it.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Curious AK, you haven't mentioned if you've given Stans a call about this, I'd expect these wheels are new and they'd deal with it under warranty or are the wheels 2nd hand?
    I purchased the wheelset brand new about 1.5 years ago. Stan's only has a 1 year warranty, but if the new end caps/bearing doesn't solve the problem I will certainly be giving them a call to inquire. Other than this issue, they have been great wheels. If I need to, hopefully an LBS would be willing to remove the ZTR front hub and re-use the rim with a new hub...

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    I purchased the wheelset brand new about 1.5 years ago. Stan's only has a 1 year warranty, but if the new end caps/bearing doesn't solve the problem I will certainly be giving them a call to inquire. Other than this issue, they have been great wheels. If I need to, hopefully an LBS would be willing to remove the ZTR front hub and re-use the rim with a new hub...
    Since you've been riding the wheel for 1.5 years, is this the first time the issue has come up?
    If the Avid rotor ran true for a year and a half, then got warped, did you true it at that point?
    Did you install the Avid rotor initially? Was it true then? If so, the problem is not the rotor mount facing, obviously.
    It seems odd to replace a hub that you've used successfully for 1.5 years because a rotor got warped, if that's what's happening.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Since you've been riding the wheel for 1.5 years, is this the first time the issue has come up?
    If the Avid rotor ran true for a year and a half, then got warped, did you true it at that point?
    Did you install the Avid rotor initially? Was it true then? If so, the problem is not the rotor mount facing, obviously.
    It seems odd to replace a hub that you've used successfully for 1.5 years because a rotor got warped, if that's what's happening.
    You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Since you've been riding the wheel for 1.5 years, is this the first time the issue has come up?
    Yes. I first noticed something odd about a month ago. These wheels were on another bike, and I was changing from a 160 to 180mm Avid rotor (using w/ BB7's). I first noticed the side-to-side wiggle in the rotor then, initially thinking, this is a brand new rotor and it's already warped!.

    This was easy to "tune out", however, with the BB7 adjuster knobs. I had used the wheelset previously on one other bike that had Shimano hydraulic brakes with no rotor/rubbing issues.

    I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but if I take the same exact rotor off the Stan's wheelset that wiggles and put it on the stock wheelset, it runs true. I don't know what further evidence is needed based on those test result to indicate that there is some issue with the Stan's wheelset causing the rotor wiggle.
    Last edited by AK47; 01-08-2013 at 06:51 PM. Reason: typo

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    This was easy to "tune out", however, with the BB7 adjuster knobs.
    You don't tune out rotor wobble with the brake caliper. That's like adjusting your derailleur by spacing out your chain line.
    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but if I take the same exact rotor off the Stan's wheelset that wiggles and put it on the stock wheelset, it runs true. I don't know what further evidence is needed based on those test result to indicate that there is some issue with the Stan's wheelset causing the rotor wiggle.
    I don't mean to either.
    However, to be blunt, I seems like you are VASTLY over-complicating this "problem." Whether or not there is some "issue" with your hub, a 5-minute adjustment would have had you riding days ago... end of story.
    Instead we're going in circles on the internet about whether your hub should be faced to X tolerance or should you buy another hub and pay someone to relace your wheel or should you file your rotor mounts.
    Truing a rotor really is no big deal and would put an end to your problems quickly and easily. Period.
    Good luck widdit.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 01-08-2013 at 07:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  50. #50
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    Very few things I've bought were perfect. Most needed something. Fork needs levels checked when new. Brand new replacement electric motors need oil, most are near dry. I even had to "adjust" a brand new toaster..had to cut off some air inlets at the bottom so it would run hotter. Ever bought a new car?

    Rotor truing is standard procedure.
    You need at least 2 bikes like me. One to make perfect and one to ride.

    I do feel your pain AK47..I do.



    Just thinking..Hub face has .001in run-out. From my puter bolt circle is about 2"...1" radius..Project that out to a 6" or 8" disk..3-4 radius..quickly is .004 at the caliper. With the close pad clearance ,004 minus pad clearance, leaves little room without rubbing at least some of the time. You probably know .001in is not much. Out of aprox 8 sets of disks and hubs I've owned all needed tweeking for a no rub ride. Have at it..
    Last edited by 1niceride; 01-08-2013 at 07:45 PM.
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