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  1. #1
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    Anybody Building Wheels with DT Swiss XM401 or XR331 Rims?

    Looks like the DT Swiss XM401 and XR331 are latest DT Swiss rims. I think the XR400 has been out for a while. The XM401 and XR331 do not have eyelets and make use of PHR Washers (Pro Head Reinforcement System) and "Squorx" pro head nipples (Squire-Torx). DT Swiss web site says the rims come with the Squorx Nipples and PHR Washers.

    Questions: Who sells these rims in the USA? Has anyone built up a set of wheels using these rims, Squorx nipples and PHR washers? What tool is needed for the Squorx nipples?

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Hi Falldog

    I tried to do the same. A lot frustration . It looks like these rims exists only in Europe and on DT Swiss website . Same applies to hubs. I saw 240's straight-pull with 6 bolts on DT Swiss website but I doubt that even exist in retail (I saw 240 only with center lock). I think retailers try to push out old inventory so do not expect the newest from DT Swiss to get any time soon. I have good DT Swiss 350 with straight pull
    with 36T ratchet system and DT competition spokes(original wheel-set on my bike) and tried replaced only rims with XR331 , maybe XM401.I just got tired of searching and decided to buy a new wheel-set or maybe some Chinese rims.

  3. #3
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    One of my distributors has had the 401's listed on their site for a while, but don't have them in stock yet. Not sure when they will. Two other distributors don't have them listed yet.

    You can build with the squorx nipples using a regular spoke wrench. Good pic here: DT Swiss - SPLINE ONE Technology They also make t-handle wrenches to adjust the nipples through the rim: DT Swiss - Proline Tools

    The new rims look really good, and I think will make a great alternative to Stan's. Now if they'd just get them here....

  4. #4
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    Sapim sells square-drive (or we can call them "squive") nipples and nipple washers that work the same as Squorx nipples and you can use them in any rim.

    The new rim from DT does look interesting. It's not available yet, but it is very similar to Stan's, American Classic and WTB rims.

  5. #5
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    Reviving this thread . . .

    These rims are in stock at various dealers now, so using them is a viable option. Anyone built any wheels with these yet? I'm especially curious about tire installation experiences.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Reviving this thread . . .

    These rims are in stock at various dealers now, so using them is a viable option. Anyone built any wheels with these yet? I'm especially curious about tire installation experiences.
    I have these rims on a set of wheels I bought pre-built, so no experience with build quality (although DT rims always seem to build easily). The wheels are true and round with even tension though.

    As far as tire mounting, it was a breeze to set up tubeless. I put on some new Hans Damfs right out of the package, mounted w/soapy water on the bead and inflated--no sealant. They held air perfectly, so even with no sealant the bead was leak-free. This was great, since I could then just add sealant through the valve, no mess.

    I did use a compressor (since I have one anyway), but these would probably work with a floor pump. I tried briefly just to check, but the head on my Joe Blow Pro is a bit leaky and I just wasn't that interested since I had a compressor sitting right there.

  7. #7
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    Thanks for your review. I have a couple questions.
    1. What tape was applied to these rims to make them tubeless?
    2. How easily did the tires mount on the rim? If they mounted very easily I'm thinking that they will be too loose to easily inflate with a floor pump. Do you recall if there was a lot of play in the tire on the rim once it was mounted?
    3. Do you recall at what air pressure did they fully seat into the rim on both sides?

    Thanks.

  8. #8
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    1. The wheels actually came with a red DT Swiss rim strip and valve stems already installed. The tape was a red plastic-type variety.
    2. Tires were a bit of challenge to get on. Even with soapy water on the beads, I was using a tire lever by the time I got to about 10:00 and 2:00. I could have managed w/o a lever--maybe--but it would have been tough.
    3. Difficult to answer this one, since I was using a pretty high-volume compressor. I'd say by 15 psi it was seated, but honestly I think it's based more on volume that pressure. As I mentioned, I didn't invest too much time w/the floor pump, but it *almost* caught with my leaky-headed Joe Blow Pro. No promises, but I'm almost certain it would have worked with a functioning floor pump.

    Hope that helps!

  9. #9
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    I just built up a set of the 331 rims in 32 hole with DT swiss revolution spokes and 240 hubs. They built up very easy and true, almost as good as a Mavic rim. I don't have the special DT nipple driver that fits the star pattern on top the the nipples so I just used the proper spoke wrench (black park spoke wrench). The end weight of the wheel set with a rear 240 135mm QR and a front 240 oversize hub converted to 15mm was a little under 1300 grams with Stans rim tape and Stans 35mm presta valves. I am waiting on a set of tires currently and some rotors and then I will test ride them. I am hoping they are semi durable like the ones I am coming off of, a set of Stans arch ex rims in 32 hole with a Dt 14 gauge spokes built three cross on a set of 240 hubs.

  10. #10
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    Based on how difficult your tires were to mount, I agree that they probably would be inflatable with a floor pump. It could be that the sidewall is very tall though, which also makes the tires harder to mount. They should not be quite that tough to mount though if they're designed to be user friendly. Unfortunately, it looks like DT Swiss has not really clarified the way they designed these new rims to be set up tubeless.

    -If you go to the rim page for the XM 401 for example and click on the Technical Specifications PDF the last column for these rims only shows that there is a "tubeless option" as an option, but does not say what it is.

    - If you go to the DT Swiss accessories page here: DT Swiss - Tubeless Solutions
    they show two different tubeless "options". One is a tubeless kit with the red plastic tape like you have. The other is DT Swiss's tubeless tape and valve.

    - If you click on the "For compatibility see here" link it opens a PDF page somewhat explaining the options. What it does clearly show is that for both the XM 401 and XR 331 rims described in the heading of this forum NONE of the tubeless kits with red tape are an option. The chart does show that the DT Tubeless kit with valves and black tape of different widths are an option for these rims.

    So I take a few things away from all this:
    1. The company that set up your wheels tubeless did not use a tubeless kit designed for your rims.
    2. Your tires were tough to mount so on a good note they should be inflatable with a floor pump if one were not to have a compressor.
    3. If the tubeless tape was used instead of the plastic rim strip the tires would have been easier to mount because the plastic rim strip is much thicker and tape is typically used under it as well making it extra thick.
    4. All Schwalbe mtb tires are tubeless ready now so they have a fairly tight bead and appear to work well on these rims.
    5. If someone were to use a UST 29er tire, which has an even smaller bead diameter than Schwalbe's tubeless-ready tires they may want to make sure they have tape installed on these rims instead of the plastic rim strip otherwise the tires may be impossible to mount.

  11. #11
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    Anyone know if the DT XM401 rims must be built with the PHR washers AND the "special" DT Squorx nipple? I'm having a set built and the builder said I could just use one of their other in-stock nipples with the PHR washer as they don't have the Squorx. Not sure if I should let them do that.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonE5 View Post
    Anyone know if the DT XM401 rims must be built with the PHR washers AND the "special" DT Squorx nipple? I'm having a set built and the builder said I could just use one of their other in-stock nipples with the PHR washer as they don't have the Squorx. Not sure if I should let them do that.
    I doubt that the Squorx nipples are required. But more importantly, the rims SHIP WITH THE NIPPLES AND WASHERS so your perhaps your builder doesn't realize that (it is fairly unusual that rims ship with nipples).

  13. #13
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    Also interested to hear how these build up.In the process of new wheels and my crest just seem to be a bit flexy. Any chance these will be any stiffer?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    I doubt that the Squorx nipples are required. But more importantly, the rims SHIP WITH THE NIPPLES AND WASHERS so your perhaps your builder doesn't realize that (it is fairly unusual that rims ship with nipples).
    Thanks. Talked more with the builder and it's the PHR washers that are most critical as you implied. Getting a set built with 240s hubs and aerolite spokes.

  15. #15
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    Did this ever get answered? I'm interested in this rim for a disc cross bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    Also interested to hear how these build up.In the process of new wheels and my crest just seem to be a bit flexy. Any chance these will be any stiffer?

  16. #16
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    No. I cpuldnt find anyone that has done a build yet. I ended up buying crest.

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    I had a set built with one 32h and one 28h (to save a little weight and stick with 6bolt 240s hubs all around). I'd say the 32h (front) is every bit as stiff as a 36h Arch EX if not more…the 28h a little less. I would go 32h front and back if I had it to do over again, but these rims are working great for me as-is and I love that they're so light and wide.

  18. #18
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    What is your riding weight? The American Classic 101 Disc rim is excellent for disc cross. It has low sidewalls and an bead lock. With most tires it's almost impossible to burp.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    What is your riding weight? The American Classic 101 Disc rim is excellent for disc cross. It has low sidewalls and an bead lock. With most tires it's almost impossible to burp.
    I'm pretty light, about 160 riding weight. XM401 is what I'm using.

  20. #20
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    I don't really have much to which I can compare the XM401. It's a lot stiffer than the Mavic 217's I was using previously...

    I have 28 f/r, and the rim seems quite stiff to me--but I'm also 135 lbs or so. I will say that I haven't burped it while running 18 psi or so.

    Generally though, I don't really think there's any free lunch with rims. All else equal, more weight=more stiffness. Rim shapes and aluminum alloys are pretty similar, so for the most part a heavier rim will be stiffer. The seem like a good 'middle of the road' choice, reasonably light and reasonably stiff.

  21. #21
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    I have not built a wheelset with the XM401 rims yet, but all of the DT Swiss rims I have built with are excellent so you should have good luck with that rim.

    Since the XM401 looks to be using a UST sized bead diameter it will be most burp resistant with something like a Vittoria TNT which has a fairly small bead.

  22. #22
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    I'm wondering how people thread up wheels using the Squorx nipples. Since they don't have a slotted head, you can't spin them on with a nipple driver. Which means you can't start off with a well balanced wheel from the get-go as Musson teaches.
    I'm on the fence between using the nipples that came with EX471 rims or chucking them and just getting some traditional brass nipples for a more sound build.

    Any wisdom on this would be helpful.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    I'm wondering how people thread up wheels using the Squorx nipples. Since they don't have a slotted head, you can't spin them on with a nipple driver. Which means you can't start off with a well balanced wheel from the get-go as Musson teaches.
    I'm on the fence between using the nipples that came with EX471 rims or chucking them and just getting some traditional brass nipples for a more sound build.

    Any wisdom on this would be helpful.
    The torx base of the nipples is arguably better than a slotted head. With a matching E socket (= female torx) you can drive the nipples very well, even to full tension from the tire side of the rim if you want.

    This is the tool by DT:
    DT Swiss Torx T-Handle Nipple Wrench for Squorx Nipples - Modern Bike

    Or I would presume a generic socket/driver of the matching size would work, if the outside diameter will fit into the rim access hole.

  24. #24
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    Thanks for that info. I'm starting to see how the Squorx is superior to a traditional aluminum nipple because of increased structure.

    The advantage of a slotted nipple head is that with a Park or Musson style nipple driver, you can start the build with every nipple threaded down to exactly the same level (3mm, 4mm, etc), which gives you the best starting point for lateral and more importantly for radial trueness. With the Squorx head, you certainly have access to good tire side tightening, but it seems you lack that good balanced starting point. Or am I missing something?
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  25. #25
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    How do you measure that distance in a standard nipple? By sight? By # of threads above the nipple on hub side?

    Personally I've always preferred the "count the turns" method to get the wheel to initial stability. Thread each nipple 3 turns when first attaching it, Then go around the wheel adding 2 turns to each nipple, repeat a couple times, decrease to 1 turn each nipple, repeat a couple times. This method requires careful attention to be consistent on the number of turns. Also, it helps to initially turn the nipple backwards at first, until you feel it "seat" down where the threads align, so that you have a consistent beginning point for the first turn of the nipple.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    How do you measure that distance in a standard nipple? By sight? By # of threads above the nipple on hub side?
    For reference, Musson's book (6.02), Chapter 8 Part 1 "Take up the slack", he explains how using a nipple driver is key to starting off radially true. The slotted tip with a 3-4mm pin extending from the tip. As the nipple is screwed on, the driver is released at the same level on every spoke. By screwing all the nipples down equally to the same position, you quickly take up the slack and start with a round wheel. It's faster and more accurate. http://www.jensonusa.com/!F!r5UX58Pu...FYQfHwodfp8CBg

    For the EX471 that I just got, I went with the Squarx nipples because A) they came with the rims and saved me the time and money of buying nipples, B) they're lighter than the brass nipples I was planning to use. Again, Musson advises against alloy nipples. I'll let you know in a year or so whether I regret this decision because of stripped or broken nipples.

    Once I got the wheels threaded, I used the DT Squorx driver to back every nipple out, feel for the click of the first thread, then re-threaded on exactly 3 turns. All the way around. Then I did another turn, and another turn and another turn until I felt the slack was taken up well. The wheel was at a pretty good starting point, quite true radially and laterally. BUT, it was a major pain in the ass and took about 20x longer than a traditional slotted nipple with a Park ND-1. Next time I'll probably go with regular brass nipples again.
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  27. #27
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    I wanna chime here since this seems to be the defacto XM401 thread. Just bought a custom wheelset from BWW with their Pure D400 hubs laced to these XM401 rims. Here: DT Swiss XM401 29 Custom Build Anyway, looking at the rim profile had me a bit nervous to roll these up tubeless with Stan's tape/valves. The bead shelf is flat and the the bead hook looks minimal. Anyway, based on what's posted on the DT Swiss website all they reference for this wheelset is tape and valves so that's what I did. 1 layer of Stan's tape and valves.

    I installed a Vittoria Saguaro 2.2 UST 29' rear and a Bonty XR 3.0 in the front. Tire lever was necessary for about the last 5-6" of exposed tire but went on easy. Surprisingly enough, these tires seated with a cored valve and soapy beads (and a compressor) very well. The 'bang..bang' snapping happened around 30 PSI for just a dry run using no sealant. When the sealant was added the tires sealed right away. I have yet to ride these wheels but they're holding air just fine. I'll tack on my real-world ride experiece when I get a few rides under me on these wheels.

    Anybody Building Wheels with DT Swiss XM401 or XR331 Rims?-img_20160326_175032%5B1%5D.jpg

    Anybody Building Wheels with DT Swiss XM401 or XR331 Rims?-img_20160326_175018-2-.jpg
    Last edited by MTBeing; 04-28-2016 at 06:52 AM.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTBeing View Post
    ANyway, looking at the rim profile had me a bit nervous to roll these up tubeless with Stan's tape/valves. The bead shelf is flat and the the bead hook looks minimal. Anyway, based on what's posted on the DT Swiss website all they reference for this wheelset is tape and valves so that's what I did. 1 layer of Stan's tape and valves.
    This is exactly what Wheelbuilder.com did on my set and I've never had an issue. Also happy to report that I've put these wheels through the ringer long term and they've been excellent!

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonE5 View Post
    This is exactly what Wheelbuilder.com did on my set and I've never had an issue. Also happy to report that I've put these wheels through the ringer long term and they've been excellent!

    The 401 or the 331?

    Looks like 28h crest are hard to get right now and may try the 331 if the price is comparable in Canada.

  30. #30
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    XM401, 240s Hubs, Aerolite spokes

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    The 401 or the 331?

    Looks like 28h crest are hard to get right now and may try the 331 if the price is comparable in Canada.
    I'm also considering Ordering 331s and I also live in Canada....it looks like the cheapest way to get them is to ship them in from Germany :P (bike24)

  32. #32
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    I have a pretty awesome LBS but I will look into that !

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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    I have a pretty awesome LBS but I will look into that !
    Yeah, I tried to support my LBS but both of them told me their two DT Swiss suppliers didn't even list the 331 Rim.... I was told by them to get it elsewhere if I wanted it :P ...they get my wheelbuilding business anyways :P

  34. #34
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    Yea, priced out today at 199 per rim lol, they were abit shocked. Even through the bike24 once shipping is accounted for is getting up there. I may have to wait for the crest to come back in stock.

  35. #35
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    I take that back. Once you put them in the cart the VAT is taken of. that is a huge decrease in price.

    Looks like shipped in CAD is only 200ish.....ummmm Ive already tapped out the bike fund this year dammit

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonE5 View Post
    This is exactly what Wheelbuilder.com did on my set and I've never had an issue. Also happy to report that I've put these wheels through the ringer long term and they've been excellent!
    So far, a couple rides on them and they've been perfect as far as tubeless goes. I'm 210 lbs and running the front at 22psi and the rear at 25. Holding air well too. It's still weird to me because I would've never guessed that these would be tubeless looking at the rim profile. Then again, I thought hookless was strange. Live and learn.
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  37. #37
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    Would love to know if they will set up with a floor pump.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    Would love to know if they will set up with a floor pump.

    I set up a Specialized Purgatory Grid on one the other night with a floor pump and some soap water no issues.

    On a side note...I did have an issue at first when putting on a Specialized Butcher Grid on the front as it kept popping off on inflation...man that was loud and scared the crap outta me! hahaha.

    Thinking it was what seems to be a lil bigger bead on the Spesh tires and the very minimal hook on the rim and the fact I DIDN"T use any soapy water the first go.
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