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  1. #1
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    With FR and even DH bikes starting to head down the big wheel path, I was wondering if anyone was building a hub strong enough to stand up to higher spoke tension. To me one of the biggest hurdles in using 650 or 29er for hardcore gravity riding is building a wheelset that won't be overly flexy. I would think higher spoke tension will go a long way toward fixing that problem. I'm pretty sure the current rims and spokes will work fine but the hub flanges seem to be the weak link here.
    Any ideas?
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  2. #2
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    Dt straight pull.

  3. #3
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    Tension is unrelated to stiffness. Its been very well proven. Stiffness is irrelevant to tension until one side goes slack.

    All hubs will take whatever tension you want, you're rim limited. The hubs are by far the strong link in the system. Rims start to collapse well before you reach the hubs limit.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Tension is unrelated to stiffness. Its been very well proven. Stiffness is irrelevant to tension until one side goes slack.

    All hubs will take whatever tension you want, you're rim limited. The hubs are by far the strong link in the system. Rims start to collapse well before you reach the hubs limit.
    What he said^ . I've built wheels at 130kgf and rebuilt same weight wheel with stan's rims at 105kgf (95kgf was recommended). The new wheels felt stiffer with thinner spokes, my conclusion; stiffness has a lot to do with the rims. About the only time hub spoke hole strength came into play was back in rim brake days and we were building radial laced wheels. Even Chris King gave a warning about such builds back then.

  5. #5
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    Yup, what OnePivot said, hubs are not the weak link here. I've tried going super high on tension and the hub had nothing to say, the rim however went all out of whack.
    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Tension is unrelated to stiffness. Its been very well proven. Stiffness is irrelevant to tension until one side goes slack.

    All hubs will take whatever tension you want, you're rim limited. The hubs are by far the strong link in the system. Rims start to collapse well before you reach the hubs limit.
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  6. #6
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    What the posters above said.

    Wheel stiffness is going to be determined by spoke thickness, spoke count, and the rim that you choose to use.

    Spoke tension won't do much for you, stiffness-wise.
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  7. #7
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    OK, I'm not arguing, I'm merely trying to get this through my own head.
    How can tension not effect stiffness? A spoked wheel is basically a triangle with the two long sides holding the rim in place. How can the tension on those two sides not effect how easily the center point (rim) moves?
    In real life, if I have too little spoke tension, the wheel is a wet noodle; the rim easily deflecting when side stresses are applied. This problem goes away as the tension is brought up correctly. This would seem to support the idea that more tension gives the rim additional side support against deflection.

    Ratt, I agree with your example of the lower tension on a better quality rim being stiffer than higher tension an a lower quality rim, however, don't you think the same rim/hub/spoke combo would be stiffer at 130kgf than at 95kgf?

    What am I missing?
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  8. #8
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    Rims can only take "so much" tension before they start to go the opposite way as in my example and start to buckle/warp. Yes, if you chose a very hefty and strong rim it could handle higher tensions, however you have to chose just how stiff you want and at what expense to weight. From my experience the rims most people are willing to accept weight wise, will not take tensions over 130kgf well.

    Quote Originally Posted by roxtar View Post
    OK, I'm not arguing, I'm merely trying to get this through my own head.
    How can tension not effect stiffness? A spoked wheel is basically a triangle with the two long sides holding the rim in place. How can the tension on those two sides not effect how easily the center point (rim) moves?
    In real life, if I have too little spoke tension, the wheel is a wet noodle; the rim easily deflecting when side stresses are applied. This problem goes away as the tension is brought up correctly. This would seem to support the idea that more tension gives the rim additional side support against deflection.

    Ratt, I agree with your example of the lower tension on a better quality rim being stiffer than higher tension an a lower quality rim, however, don't you think the same rim/hub/spoke combo would be stiffer at 130kgf than at 95kgf?

    What am I missing?
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  9. #9
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    The only case where a hub flange would fail is radial lacing, but that's probably not what you're doing anyways.

    Roxtar, if the rim is not stiff, flex of the wheel comes from the rim momentarily becoming the shape of a waveform, because the spokes pull it to alternate sides. Adding tension will do little if anything to compensate for a flexy rim, and increasing the tension too far makes the rim constantly waveform-shaped. With a stiff rim the spokes hold it centered, round and true, and at a reasonable tension the wheel will be much more rigid than a wheel with a flexy rim at any tension.

    Moral of the story: for a bombproof wheel use bombproof rims. You'll notice it's a strong piece even at regular spoke tension.

    EDIT: Another point crossed my mind. Making the rim flex is more difficult when the spokes are closer together, because they have less leverage on the rim before another spoke pulls the rim to the opposite side. So if you think your wheel was too flexy, consider building one with more spokes. Even with the same components (apart from hole count) an increased spoke count makes a very noticeable and significant difference.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by roxtar View Post
    OK, I'm not arguing, I'm merely trying to get this through my own head.
    How can tension not effect stiffness? A spoked wheel is basically a triangle with the two long sides holding the rim in place. How can the tension on those two sides not effect how easily the center point (rim) moves?
    In real life, if I have too little spoke tension, the wheel is a wet noodle; the rim easily deflecting when side stresses are applied. This problem goes away as the tension is brought up correctly. This would seem to support the idea that more tension gives the rim additional side support against deflection.

    Ratt, I agree with your example of the lower tension on a better quality rim being stiffer than higher tension an a lower quality rim, however, don't you think the same rim/hub/spoke combo would be stiffer at 130kgf than at 95kgf?

    What am I missing?
    This is not a case where more is better. You just need enough.

    I do not think that 95kgf is "enough" for most dished wheels if you use that as the high limit. I use 115-125 as my normal "high" tension (mostly because the wheel is more durable IME). More makes no difference in the feel of the wheels, even compared to 95kgf.

    A good rim, not too thin spokes and at least 32 spokes matters MUCH more. Hubs with wider flange spacing also helps but there is little difference between models.
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  11. #11
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    The hub is sometimes the weak link. A buddy of mine who likes to take that "extra step" brought his wheels up to 160 kgf. DT comps, brass nips, Rhynolite rims and Chris King hubs. He stretched the hub shell to the point where the bearings would just flop out. CK put some oversize bearings in to make up for it.
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  12. #12
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    So we basically just need seriously bomp-proof 29" & 650 rims before they can be seriously considered for DH and heavy duty FR use.
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  13. #13
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by roxtar View Post
    So we basically just need seriously bomp-proof 29" & 650 rims before they can be seriously considered for DH and heavy duty FR use.
    No more so than 26" rims.

    If you are an abusive rider you need beefy rims, no matter their diameter.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tedsti View Post
    The hub is sometimes the weak link. A buddy of mine who likes to take that "extra step" brought his wheels up to 160 kgf. DT comps, brass nips, Rhynolite rims and Chris King hubs. He stretched the hub shell to the point where the bearings would just flop out. CK put some oversize bearings in to make up for it.
    Are you saying he pulled the hub flange out of spec before the spokes stretched, or the rim failed? That is pretty hard to imagine. I can see elongating the flange spoke holes over time, but what you describe seems crazy!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocop View Post
    Are you saying he pulled the hub flange out of spec before the spokes stretched, or the rim failed? That is pretty hard to imagine. I can see elongating the flange spoke holes over time, but what you describe seems crazy!
    Yup, the hub flange was deformed. CK was nice enough to find some bearings on the large side to fix it up for him. We don't call him Broke-Bike-Bob for nuthin'.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tedsti View Post
    Yup, the hub flange was deformed. CK was nice enough to find some bearings on the large side to fix it up for him. We don't call him Broke-Bike-Bob for nuthin'.
    This story seems highly unlikely to me. Not only because the chances of a hub shell "stretching" like you describe are like one in a billion, but it would be very out of character for Chris king to jerry rig one of their hubs. They make their own bearings - there's no way they'd take the time to program the machine to make a few one off oversize bearings vs. telling the customer to just buy a new hub shell. Or they would have given him a hub shell with a cosmetic defect or something if he was short on money.

  17. #17
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    Broke-Bike-Bob here. (I'm not normally following this forum)

    What Tedsti said is true. At the time, I was running 36-hole Rhyno Lites with straight gauge 2.0 spokes trued nicely so that the Park tension meter said 26.5 on the drive side (close enough that the min was > 26 and max was < 27). I laced them using standard 3-cross pattern as I've been doing for the last 35 years. I'm a big guy, and tend to flex my wheels so hard that the tires will rub holes in the chainstay. (even with shop-build wheels) So, stiffness is as big of an issue as strength. At the time, I was running Rhynos because they are cheap, wide, and reasonably strong. Plus, they have the inserts in the spoke holes, to keep the nipples from pulling through.

    Like other posts here, my understanding was always that maximum spoke tension was limited by the rim. If the rim can handle it, the hub will be fine.

    I had never run into this problem with Shimano, Hope, Surly, and Phil Wood hubs. But that tension was too much for the Chris King. Pull off the cassette, and the entire ring drive plus bearing are in your lap. So, I sent my wheel into Chris King for service. (I have the CK tool and normally rebuild my own) They told me what happened.

    The spokes stretched the hub so badly that there was slop on the drive-side bearing. They rebuilt it with an over-sized bearing, and put in their largest oversize at no-extra charge. They also told me what was the maximum tension that their hubs could handle. I lowered my spokes to that amount, but it was too late. Even the oversized bearing flops out without any tools.

    Since then, I've switched over to Halo Freedom rims. They seem to be much stiffer, so I can run them at a lower tension (about 120kgf = 25 on the Park gauge). I haven't had any problems since then, but I now have an expensive hub that is used only for spare parts. One of these years, I'll probably replace the shell and bearing and scavenged parts, and try to get it working again.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by roxtar View Post
    I would think higher spoke tension will go a long way toward fixing that problem.
    It will not.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    This story seems highly unlikely to me. Not only because the chances of a hub shell "stretching" like you describe are like one in a billion, but it would be very out of character for Chris king to jerry rig one of their hubs. They make their own bearings - there's no way they'd take the time to program the machine to make a few one off oversize bearings vs. telling the customer to just buy a new hub shell. Or they would have given him a hub shell with a cosmetic defect or something if he was short on money.
    He is correct.
    That's why CK does not recommend less than 3x lacing and has a max spoke tension of 120kgf.
    160kgf, however, is not a well-informed thing to do.
    On page 14 of the Technical Service Manual they describe how spoke tension affects the bearing preload adjustment:
    "Spoke tension pulling out on the flanges can slightly loosen the preload adjustment on the bearings. The hub(s) come pre-adjusted from the factory anticipating both spoke tension and skewer compression. However, because of variations in wheel-building practices, a minor adjustment should always be performed upon completion of the wheel build. Please see the appropriate “adjustment” section and check the hub before using."
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  20. #20
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    (Some?) hub flanges from 'tune' are limited to spoke tension of max. 1.000N.

  21. #21
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    (Dang it Ted. I don't want to get into another techie argument on another forum!)

    Regarding spoke tension vs "stiffness". I understand that lateral stiffness won't change very much as spoke tension is increased. That isn't my problem.

    Any big guy will know that when you hit a rock at enough speed, there is a point where the wheel deforms. You'll know this when you hear the spokes go "Sproing!" when you exit the rock and the wheel pops back into shape. Cheaper rims will do this sooner, but any rim will deform if you hit a rock/log/hole/bump at enough speed and your suspension doesn't suck it up.

    During the time while the rim is deformed, the down-facing spokes go slack. Therefore, the rim is free to move whatever way it wants. The point of tight spokes is to prevent this from happening as often. Otherwise, there would be no reason to ever go higher than 10 kgf spoke tension on any wheel.

  22. #22
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    When you're building a wheel and you have the spokes laced it is easy to see how spoke tension affects lateral stiffness. Tension to 65 DS 40 NDS.
    Put the hub on a magazine on the floor. Put the rim on another at the 6'clock position with the mag wrapped over the top of the rim so you can kneel on it. Push the rim down toward the floor at the 11 and 1 o'clock positions with your hands and body weight. It flexes easily. Continue to tension the wheel for another stage at 85-90 and 60 or so NDS. Repeat the procedure and the wheel will need more weight to flex. Rotate it to stress all the spokes and flip it for the other side. Go up to115-125 and 90 or so NDS. It's not going to flex laterally much at all when you put reasonable weight on it. The correct amount of spoke tension will give you a laterally stiffer wheel than the same wheel built with less optimum spoke tension.
    You just felt it yourself.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    The correct amount of spoke tension will give you a laterally stiffer wheel than the same wheel built with less optimum spoke tension.
    You just felt it yourself.
    Wrong
    I've done this any many similar experiments (where actual measurements were taken).
    This "argument" also has no logical basis if you want to get technical. The elasticity of spokes (the force-deflection response) is linear up to the yield point, meaning that an additional 10kgf will stretch a spoke the same amount whether you start at 40kgf of 150kgf. If you have not stress-relieved spokes (poor wheel building) you will see some effects that are not strictly tension related.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 06-28-2013 at 04:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.S. View Post
    Otherwise, there would be no reason to ever go higher than 10 kgf spoke tension on any wheel.
    Except that a wheel at 10kgf would go slack as soon as you sit on the bike. There would also not be enough tension in the spokes to be able to bed them in.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  25. #25
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    Traditionally, higher spoke cross counts were used to make a more compliant wheel (less radially stiff). the individual spoke tensions would be significantly lower for a properly built wheel with 4 (crossed) spokes as opposed to 3.
    especially with suspension, spoke tension is a smaller factor in wheel stiffness than the rim construction.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Traditionally, higher spoke cross counts were used to make a more compliant wheel (less radially stiff).
    huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    the individual spoke tensions would be significantly lower for a properly built wheel with 4 (crossed) spokes as opposed to 3.
    where do you come up with this stuff? what about 4-cross, if it's even possible on a 32-spoke wheel, allows spoke tension to be lower?
    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    especially with suspension, spoke tension is a smaller factor in wheel stiffness than the rim construction.
    spoke tension is ZERO factor.
    these types of posts make me laugh... and think about the newbie/learner who is going to read this crap and repeat it down the road.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  27. #27
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    Radial and 1x will change wheel stiffness in theory. In practice you'd never notice, and ive done tons of the same wheels in all patterns and they all feel the same. You can get different tension balances though. Stiffness is dependant on the rim.

  28. #28
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Traditionally, higher spoke cross counts were used to make a more compliant wheel (less radially stiff). the individual spoke tensions would be significantly lower for a properly built wheel with 4 (crossed) spokes as opposed to 3.
    especially with suspension, spoke tension is a smaller factor in wheel stiffness than the rim construction.
    I agree with mf. Your post is BS. The tension of 3X vs 4X is identical when all else is the same. Been there, done that, many times.

    The reason to use more crosses in a wheel is to increase torsional stability by having the spoke semi tangential angle as close to 90 degrees as possible. Plus a 32 spoke, 3X wheel has about the same spoke angle as a 36 spoke, 4X wheel (and a 24 spoke, 2X wheel).

    Suspension has ZERO affect on wheel tension. Period.
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  29. #29
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    The test works the same when you loosen the tension on spokes that have been properly stress relieved.
    It's simple and straightforward. Unmistakable results.
    The flexing you can easily see and feel at lower spoke tensions isn't merely stress relief.
    I could speculate on what else is involved. I haven't bothered because the physical evidence is so compelling and I prefer to ride the wheels when built. It could have something to do with the rim diameter and change in spoke length.

  30. #30
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    Consult with Jobst Brandt, and get back to me.
    I have over 1000 builds under my belt, you?

    And Shiggy, I was agreeing...suspension has no effect on actual wheel stiffness...just an effect on whether or not you will ever be able to discern a difference.

    I thought you knew something about wheels.
    I guess maybe in an MTBR kinda way....
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  31. #31
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    If your tensions on a 3X vs. 4X 36 were identical, you were overtensioning the 4X, simple as that.
    Or undertensioning the 3X, I dunno.
    either/or.
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  32. #32
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    If your tensions on a 3X vs. 4X 36 were identical, you were overtensioning the 4X, simple as that.
    Or undertensioning the 3X, I dunno.
    either/or.
    Yes, I have built a few thousand wheels.

    My wheels are fine. No issues.

    I still consider your info BS.
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  33. #33
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    You will get an anuerism taking yourself so seriously, Choche. I never said there was anything wrong with your wheels.
    But surely you know how and why 4 cross wheels allowed for greater strenght due to lower tension, especially loaded touring, Tandems, etc.
    It's 'old tech'.
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  34. #34
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Consult with Jobst Brandt, and get back to me.
    Just pulled out The Wheel Book.

    Not one word concerning the lacing pattern when talking about spoke tension, changing the tension using different patterns, or even spoke length.
    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    You will get an anuerism taking yourself so seriously, Choche. I never said there was anything wrong with your wheels.
    But surely you know how and why 4 cross wheels allowed for greater strenght due to lower tension, especially loaded touring, Tandems, etc.
    It's 'old tech'.
    I do not take myself that seriously. I do take misinformation very seriously, and you are still giving it out. Your "old tech" reasoning is just wrong.

    And that was a classy move resorting to name calling.
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  35. #35
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
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    Who resorted to name calling?

    You are such a sensitive little flower.

    Sonny.
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  36. #36
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Who resorted to name calling?

    Sonny.
    You did, Bunky.
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=choche

    I challenge your ideas. You make personal comments. Yup, a real class act.
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  37. #37
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    Wow, I have never seen or heard it used as such, I use it as a colloquial Peruvian slang which means roughly 'pal'.
    Urban dictionary is full of weird shyte.
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  38. #38
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    Please explain the why of your statement! As Shiggy has said, absolute BS, why would you change spoke tension, proper spoke tension is proper spoke tension, doesn't matter your lacing pattern, unless you go radial and even then not so sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    If your tensions on a 3X vs. 4X 36 were identical, you were overtensioning the 4X, simple as that.
    Or undertensioning the 3X, I dunno.
    either/or.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Please explain the why of your statement! As Shiggy has said, absolute BS, why would you change spoke tension, proper spoke tension is proper spoke tension, doesn't matter your lacing pattern, unless you go radial and even then not so sure.
    Build a four cross, check the tension.
    Then tell me.
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  40. #40
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Build a four cross, check the tension.
    Then tell me.
    I have, many times.
    Same spoke counts, same hubs, same rims. 4X, 3X, 2X. Same spoke tension.

    You are doing nothing to support your case.
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  41. #41
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
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    Did you know that according to urban dictionary, you are named after a dysentery causing bacterium?
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  42. #42
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    I am not so sure citing JB actually supports any argument, seems many disagreed with him on a regular basis.

  43. #43
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Did you know that according to urban dictionary, you are named after a dysentery causing bacterium?
    I know where the name came from.

    Now, how about some facts to back up your views about spoke tension?
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  44. #44
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Smedley View Post
    I am not so sure citing JB actually supports any argument, seems many disagreed with him on a regular basis.
    Especially when citing something he never wrote in The Book, or misquoting something he may have said on a forum.
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  45. #45
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    This is all fine and dandy...for an internet war.
    However, the real proof is in the pudding, as it were. i offer free truing for life on my wheels, period. And i have wheels out there still running for 25 years.
    Theoretical explorations aside, a strong wheel is a strong wheel, however arrived at.
    And i maintain, from my own experience, that the higher the cross count, the (ever so slightly) lower tension builds a stronger, longer lasting wheel.
    And no amount of internet pissery can prove me wrong. My wheels are better, more valid proof (to me, and to the people riding my wheels)

    In other words, from the book of...me.

    go ahead, prove it wrong. with statistics, thank you.

    (BTW, you are taking yourself seriously again, it seems to be a lifelong internet trait)

    All that said, I bet your wheels are acceptable as well. To me, it's like hitting a musical note...there is no wrong way, as long as the note is correct.
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    And then we eat them."

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Smedley View Post
    I am not so sure citing JB actually supports any argument, seems many disagreed with him on a regular basis.
    Precisely.
    And no one necessarily emerged wrong, or right.
    A strong wheel is a strong wheel.
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    And then we eat them."

  47. #47
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    I have, well actually someone built them for me when I was first getting into MTBs and we didn't have short enough spokes. Wheels were stiff because they used Mavic XM321 rims which I think can hold themselves up without spokes Seriously, wheels weren't bad, but tensions were low, when I later learned a bit and tensioned them higher to some where around 100-120 Kgf they were a lot better and then when I completely rebuilt them using the right length DT Comp spokes and 3X lacing they got even better. Tension is tension, using less is plain silly because you chose a different lacing pattern.


    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Build a four cross, check the tension.
    Then tell me.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  48. #48
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    Let's see what the measurements say:
    Wheel Stiffness Test


  49. #49
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    Please edit your chart to include the load is a 25.78lb weight meant to represent a road bike pedal stroke on one side of an upright bike. Just the weight isn't enough.
    Not relevant to a 250lb rider loading a mtb rim at a signifigant side angle at speed hitting a rock while railing a turn.



    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Let's see what the measurements say:
    Wheel Stiffness Test


  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    Please edit your chart to include the load is a 25.78lb weight meant to represent a road bike pedal stroke on one side of an upright bike. Just the weight isn't enough.
    Not relevant to a 250lb rider loading a mtb rim at a signifigant side angle at speed hitting a rock while railing a turn.
    1) Quantify the force of such an event, and translate it into something which can be accurately and repeatedly measured.

    2) You also need to show that the force vs. deflection curve for a wheel has a knee somewhere between 25.78 lbs and whatever the amount is that you came up with in the above.

    If you can't show that point 2 is in fact true the test remains relevant for a mountain bike wheel under higher loads.

  51. #51
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    This is all fine and dandy...for an internet war.
    However, the real proof is in the pudding, as it were. i offer free truing for life on my wheels, period. And i have wheels out there still running for 25 years.
    Theoretical explorations aside, a strong wheel is a strong wheel, however arrived at.
    And i maintain, from my own experience, that the higher the cross count, the (ever so slightly) lower tension builds a stronger, longer lasting wheel.
    And no amount of internet pissery can prove me wrong. My wheels are better, more valid proof (to me, and to the people riding my wheels)

    In other words, from the book of...me.

    go ahead, prove it wrong. with statistics, thank you.

    (BTW, you are taking yourself seriously again, it seems to be a lifelong internet trait)

    All that said, I bet your wheels are acceptable as well. To me, it's like hitting a musical note...there is no wrong way, as long as the note is correct.
    [wah]
    "I'm right. I think so. My mom says so and no amount of "facts" could ever get past my obstinance."
    [/wah]
    Have it your way.
    I find it hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  52. #52
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    The test works the same when you loosen the tension on spokes that have been properly stress relieved.
    It's simple and straightforward. Unmistakable results.
    The flexing you can easily see and feel at lower spoke tensions isn't merely stress relief.
    I could speculate on what else is involved. I haven't bothered because the physical evidence is so compelling and I prefer to ride the wheels when built. It could have something to do with the rim diameter and change in spoke length.
    I've done the same test you have, only I measured deflection, and I come to the opposite conclusion, which happens to be the same conclusion arrived at by anyone who understands the dynamics and reasons through it or takes time to set up an experiment to empirically determine it.

    "What happens when my 250-lb ass is railing an off-camber turn and I glance a rock and there's dirt in my eyes and I'm really feelin it and there's a cold beer at the bottom of the hill? HUH?!? What then, bra?!?"

    Then you wake up.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    [wah]
    "I'm right. I think so. My mom says so and no amount of "facts" could ever get past my obstinance."
    [/wah]
    Have it your way.
    I find it hilarious.
    OR: you guys are a bunch of nerds that babble more than build.

    And hundreds of wheels being ridden by hundreds of customers are REAL proof.
    Have it your way.
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    And then we eat them."

  54. #54
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    The flexing you feel at lower spoke tensions is your body weight overcoming one side, that side going slack, and you getting the resulting flex.

    I have a noodle wheel on my wall at 125 kgf that I can flex to the point of dead slack spokes. At high tension, it takes a little more effort to force it into slack versus when the wheel is loose. This is really really easy to misinterpret as being stiffer when at higher tension. The amount of flex for any given input by me is identical, it just hits the slack and flexy point faster when tension is down which makes it seem stiffer.

    If the NDS sits at 65kgf, it takes a higher force to flex it completely versus when the NDS is at 40... but if you could accurately apply a force that dropped NDS tension by 30, the amount of flex would be identical regardless if its tensioned to 65 or 40. Its just extremely difficult to feel the difference by hand.

    In short, if you retension a wheel and its stiffer, your spokes were going slack. The rim is still just as flexy.

    All in all... its a silly argument. Do stuff right and dont build slack wheels. If 125kgf is insufficient, your rim is insufficient, and theres no fixing it. Gotta buy the right gear.

  55. #55
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    OR: you guys are a bunch of nerds that babble more than build.
    What an effective argument. Speculation...

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    And hundreds of wheels being ridden by hundreds of customers are REAL proof.
    Have it your way.
    On both sides... and it proves nothing, except that everyone here can build quality wheels.
    Some just have a better understanding of the underlying mechanisms than others.
    It doesn't take a structural engineer to frame a house, but the flip side is that most framers can't tell you why standard stud spacing is 16" O.C. or why you can build a just as strong but more energy efficient house with less materials using 24" O.C. spacing if you pay attention to some details.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  56. #56
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    Studies of rivets have found that the closer the rivet fits in the hole the stronger the rivet and the flange is. These studies are over 100 years old. So you can make any hub effectively stronger by using thicker spokes at the elbow. Pillar make these. A spoke elbow flexes a bit a proper fitting spoke feels stiffer because there is less room for it to bend. This is the first thing I noticed with DT alpine III spokes. The wheel also built up quicker because I didn't have to pull that bend in the spokes. Pillar-Spokes
    "Dish is illogical." Spoke of Vulcan.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    What an effective argument. Speculation...


    On both sides... and it proves nothing, except that everyone here can build quality wheels.
    Some just have a better understanding of the underlying mechanisms than others.
    It doesn't take a structural engineer to frame a house, but the flip side is that most framers can't tell you why standard stud spacing is 16" O.C. or why you can build a just as strong but more energy efficient house with less materials using 24" O.C. spacing if you pay attention to some details.
    Agreed.
    And I spent years studying this stuff...only to arrive where I am by doing. A sous chef uses a measuring spoon. A master chef knows how much is in a pinch.
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    And then we eat them."

  58. #58
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Agreed.
    And I spent years studying this stuff...only to arrive where I am by doing. A sous chef uses a measuring spoon. A master chef knows how much is in a pinch.
    Except that the master chef's pinch would be easily verified by another and no true "masters" are smug enough to suggest that they know everything that matters.
    What you're saying makes no sense, which suggests that you either didn't spend all these years studying "this stuff" or you were wasting your time because you didn't get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  59. #59
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    Now you are just being pissy because you are still learning, grasshopper.
    Anything else you just learned about that old schoolers have been doing for 100 years you wanna lecture me about?
    I'm all ears!
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

  60. #60
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Now you are just being pissy because you are still learning, grasshopper.
    Anything else you just learned about that old schoolers have been doing for 100 years you wanna lecture me about?
    I'm all ears!
    You still have not addressed why you think a 4X wheel needs less spoke tension than an otherwise identical 3X wheel.

    Teach us, do not just tell us we do not know. The sources you have brought up are dead ends.
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  61. #61
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Now you are just being pissy because you are still learning, grasshopper.
    Anything else you just learned about that old schoolers have been doing for 100 years you wanna lecture me about?
    I'm all ears!
    I think the guy calling names and flailing with an argument that is essentially "because I said so" is the one being pissy.

    By the way, I noticed earlier that you said 4x should be "significantly" lower then later changed your story to "ever so slightly" lower. I'm sure this is an esoteric subtlety that you have mastered from your incredible experience that nobody else has and that's why it makes no sense, but could you explain that so a grasshopper can understand?

    Alternately, what may have you confused is that as spoke count goes down, tension must go up to maintain the same strength. As spoke count goes down, the cross pattern also goes down to maintain the tangential spoke angle. So if you were comparing a 36-spoke 4x wheel to a 24-spoke 2x wheel, the 4x wheel would not need as much tension to maintain strength. However that has nothing to do with the cross pattern or compliance and it's a hell of a stretch to make some semblance of logic emerge from your tangled and confused statements, but nevertheless it is there.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  62. #62
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    I think the guy calling names and flailing with an argument that is essentially "because I said so" is the one being pissy.

    By the way, I noticed earlier that you said 4x should be "significantly" lower then later changed your story to "ever so slightly" lower. I'm sure this is an esoteric subtlety that you have mastered from your incredible experience that nobody else has and that's why it makes no sense, but could you explain that so a grasshopper can understand?

    Alternately, what may have you confused is that as spoke count goes down, tension must go up to maintain the same strength. As spoke count goes down, the cross pattern also goes down to maintain the tangential spoke angle. So if you were comparing a 36-spoke 4x wheel to a 24-spoke 2x wheel, the 4x wheel would not need as much tension to maintain strength. However that has nothing to do with the cross pattern or compliance and it's a hell of a stretch to make some semblance of logic emerge from your tangled and confused statements, but nevertheless it is there.
    Agreed. Completely.
    Points I also made and were ignored.
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  63. #63
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    DINGDINGDING, we have a winner!

    it was right in front of your nose the whole time.
    Took you a while.

    More crosses, longer spokes, lower tension.

    wow, that was fun!
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Agreed. Completely.
    Points I also made and were ignored.
    Shiggy, I am dissapointed that you missed the obvious from the start.
    Spoke length in regards to tension is surely covered by Brandt somewhere.

    Now I am off to go ride on Teton Pass, where spoke tension matters....but not much in regards to side loading.
    Peace.

    And yes, at 46, I still hit this stuff.
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  65. #65
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Shiggy, I am dissapointed that you missed the obvious from the start.
    Spoke length in regards to tension is surely covered by Brandt somewhere.

    Now I am off to go ride on Teton Pass, where spoke tension matters....but not much in regards to side loading.
    Peace.

    And yes, at 46, I still hit this stuff.
    I did not miss it.
    I checked, JB does not mention it at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Just pulled out The Wheel Book.

    Not one word concerning the lacing pattern when talking about spoke tension, changing the tension using different patterns, or even spoke length.
    You ignored it.

    You are still refusing to back up your claims with any concrete reasons--or any reasons at all. Step up or step out.

    I am ten years older and ride everything, too.
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  66. #66
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    DINGDINGDING, we have a winner!

    it was right in front of your nose the whole time.
    Took you a while.

    More crosses, longer spokes, lower tension.

    wow, that was fun!
    I have no clue who/what this is in reply to because nobody has mentioned longer spokes.

    You have claimed that more crosses do not need as much spoke tension. Still no reasons why.

    Seems you are confusing spoke deflection with spoke tension. Yes, a longer spoke can deflect more (over its whole length) at the same tension. Not at all the same thing as having less tension or it not needing to be tensioned as much as a shorter spoke.

    Or you are ignoring that it is the number of spokes that make the tension difference required between 24spoke 2X and 36spoke 4X, not the lacing pattern or spoke length

    More spokes, less tension required per spoke, regardless of lacing pattern or wheel size.
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  67. #67
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    I am ten years older and ride everything, too.



    GET OFF MY LAWN, PUNK!
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    And then we eat them."

  68. #68
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    I am ten years older and ride everything, too.



    GET OFF MY LAWN, PUNK!
    Ten years older than yourself, and still nothing constructive to add. Really acting like an idiot.
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  69. #69
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    Look, I believe in real world evidence, not theoretical fluffery.
    Have you pulled out your tensions meter to actually check random wheels?
    I have a challenge for you.
    Build a few wheels, 2,3, and four cross.
    Vary he tensions according to cross pattern, however your hands feel like they are right.
    Ride them for 25 years.
    Then lets come back and compare.
    I can't wait to hear your theoretical opposition.
    I still maintain that you have no clue what I meant by my first post (cross patterns and how that plays into intended strength of wheels built in the 20, 30's, etc).
    And now you are entrenched in your theoretical navel-gazing of how that couldn't possibly be so.
    Stiff wheels are not necessarily stronger wheels.
    In fact, they often aren't. And more spokes and crosses in the lacing can allow the stresses to be shared over more spokes. It's really simple.
    Get back to me in, say, 2035 or so.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    They make their own bearings - there's no way they'd take the time to program the machine to make a few one off oversize bearings vs. telling the customer to just buy a new hub shell.
    No, they wouldn't custom machine him a set of bearings. But that doesn't mean they couldn't find some that were out of tolerance to the high side and custom assemble him a set of bearings. Even that seems EXTREMELY nice of the boys at King.

  71. #71
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Look, I believe in real world evidence, not theoretical fluffery.
    Have you pulled out your tensions meter to actually check random wheels?
    I have a challenge for you.
    Build a few wheels, 2,3, and four cross.
    Vary he tensions according to cross pattern, however your hands feel like they are right.
    Yes, I check the wheels with a tensiometer after I build them. No matter the lacing pattern the tension is always about the same (within 5%). That is using the "feels right" method. There is no variation because of pattern.

    You said properly built wheels with more crosses have lower tension.
    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    ...individual spoke tensions would be significantly lower for a properly built wheel with 4 (crossed) spokes as opposed to 3...
    Explain why.


    Ride them for 25 years.
    Then lets come back and compare.
    Stop acting like an idiot.


    I can't wait to hear your theoretical opposition.
    I still maintain that you have no clue what I meant by my first post (cross patterns and how that plays into intended strength of wheels built in the 20, 30's, etc).
    And now you are entrenched in your theoretical navel-gazing of how that couldn't possibly be so.
    If you think I have missed your point, state that point clearly and completely. Be helpful for a change.


    Stiff wheels are not necessarily stronger wheels.
    In fact, they often aren't. And more spokes and crosses in the lacing can allow the stresses to be shared over more spokes. It's really simple.
    I agree that stiffer may not be stronger, and that more spokes and crosses handle the stress better.
    But stiff is NOT the same as high tension, and higher tension does not mean the wheel is better (this has all been covered before you plopped in this thread).

    Now, explain, completely and in detail, exactly why a 36 spoke, 4X wheel needs to be build with significantly lower tension than an otherwise identical 36 spoke, 3X wheel.

    Spell it out.
    Now.
    No coy comments.
    No hesitation.
    No more try it and see.

    Your credibility is on the line.
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    ...I agree that stiffer may not be stronger, and that more spokes and crosses handle the stress better...
    I don't think I'd even concede the last point about more crosses handling the stress better. For any given rim size / number of holes / hub flange diameter combination there is a cross pattern that "works" best by positioning the spoke angles at the rim optimally (or closer to optimally than another cross pattern) and doesn't result in funny things at the hub flange. Too many crosses with too few spokes can produce funny angles at the rim or spoke/head interference at the hub. This can't be a good thing.

  73. #73
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    Any hubs built for higher spoke tension?

    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    I don't think I'd even concede the last point about more crosses handling the stress better. For any given rim size / number of holes / hub flange diameter combination there is a cross pattern that "works" best by positioning the spoke angles at the rim optimally (or closer to optimally than another cross pattern) and doesn't result in funny things at the hub flange. Too many crosses with too few spokes can produce funny angles at the rim or spoke/head interference at the hub. This can't be a good thing.
    Yes, there is an optimum number of crosses, limited by the spoke count, hub flange size and rim diameter.
    As I mentioned earlier, the ideal is to have true tangential lacing, the spoke coming off the flange at 90 degrees. 4X with 36 spokes is very close with most bicycle wheels, as is 2X with 24 spokes and 3x with 28.
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